The case for war

[Mr_Cheeze]

I, for one, am quite convinced after hearing Powell's case this morning, after having been on the fence, somewhat. Let's get ready for the fireworks.

[Dawgee]

we should bomb them and then build a nice mountain bike resort . they have some cool mountains over there

[I Are Baboon]

I am starting to think that even if Iraq uses biological weapons against neighboring countries, and even if Iraq assassinates all of the U.N inspectors, France, Russia, and China will still insist that diplomacy is the best course of actions.

F*ucking cowards.

[Big Game]

The most wonderful b.s. I've ever hear in my life:

Iraqi Diplomat: "We can't allow U2 flights over Iraq because due to the US-led no-fly zone, it is impossible for us to guarantee the safety of the U2s"

Wow. I can only hope that some day, when I am asked to defend an impossibly stupid position, that I will have the creativity to come up with a load like that.

But you know what? As offensive as it is to logic, I bet you anything France and Germany will buy it, and plead for more time for "inspections to work."

Again, I'm no fan of violence and I still hold out hope that Hussein will take the exile deal and stop srewing over the Iraqis and the rest of the world.

And I wish inspections would work, but I'm reminded of a lyric from the Jayhawks:

"It's hard to sing with someone who won't sing with you."

Humbly submitted, your pal,

Big Game

[knucklebuste]

Well. Well. Well. Here it is. I've been looking for something to do all day long and low and behold, behind my back there is a discussion going on about my favorite topic. WAR. Well here it goes. Powell's speach and presentation was more than adequate and convincing. Anyone that says otherwise, including UN officials, democrats, republicans and people of the world and the US, is completely in lack of common sense and good judgement and should not be and elected official neiter your average opinionator. Thats it folks, BOTTOM F*CKING LINE. Knuckle, OUT. WAR IS IMMINENT

[knucklebuste]

God I love this sh*t. I can't help myself, but here it goes again. Consider the fact that there are many members of the Al Queta network inside the United States of America. Fact. Now consider the fact that Iraq and Hussein know that no matter what, the U.S and President Bush are going to take out Hussein and his regeim. Now consider the fact that they DO NOT GIVE A **** and ask yourself why? Think about it. There is more to this than meets the eye. Hussein is smarter than the likes of the Al Queta network and the Taliban regeim. He has not or will not strike against the United States (not that he can't) because he does not have just cause. Now think about the level of competence of the officials and common people who are shouting "diplomatic resolution" or "give the UN more time."
Hussein has geared this whole process against us and it is already set up to make us look like the villian and him the poor man who did nothing wrong. So let me give you a little scenario of how this is all going to play out. Once again this is a war which we will go alone. We will invade Iraq and Hussein will have his "Just Cause" which he is looking for and the illegal Al Queta terrorists and their operatives are going to play out the mastermind disaster in major US cities which is funded and backed by Iraq and Hussein is going to shine like the victim with his "Just Cause" to wreck havoc on the United States of America. Remember these people are not dummies just because they lack common sense and normal humanitaran reasoning skills. They are not dumb, and once again the United States is going to look like the war monger, with NO UN SUPPORT and NO ALLIES. It's gonna get real ugly folks. I just hope I can have at least one more year of undisturbed mountain bike riding. I truely believe that the hell perceived in ones mind is actually right here in front of us. I don't want it to be this way. I have fear and anxiety every day for what is to come. I do not want it, but I have to face it. THE S*IT IS GONNA HIT THE FAN
Knuckle

[EVIL BOTA]

I don't think Iraq is gonna be the problem..North korea is the one to worry about. I think a war with them would be alot more costly.
MY 2 CENTS

[knucklebuste]

Costly as far as what? Money? F- Money, I'm talking about life here. Knuckle

[p_coutermarsh]

I totally agree that we need to go into Iraq and remove Saddam and his cronies. The question that bugs me is, who is going to take over? When we think about war we think about stealth bombers and patriot missiles, but the real challenege comes when we have to implement an interim and future government. Oh, well...bombs away. >:(

North Korea is only acting up because we are busy with Iraq, fortunately, the international community sees the evil that is brewing.

Yogi

[knucklebuste]

I hope we level Iraq in such a way that it makes a statement to the whole world. DONT MESS WITH THE USA. Do you know if you heat sand to 1000 degrees it turns into glass. Thats what I think we should do to Iraq. Turn the whole piece of **** into glass. Knuckle

[gungywump]

People are alwys gunning for those that are on top. It is not wise to stand on top of the mountain and flaunt your position. We have enough problems with our own government. What then gives us the right to structure the governments of other countries to fit our wetsern eurocentric christian ideals?
Basically Powell challenged Iraq to PROVE that they do not have weapons of mass destruction. Hypothetically, my question is this. If (and this is a big hypothetical here, but bear with me) Iraq doesn't have said weapons. How do you prove the non-existance of something that doesn't exist? It's like a challenge to prove the impossible. Why not just ask them to prove that Allah or God does not exhist? Or prove that Allah or God do exhist? By the inability to prove or disprove you are doomed to come out the loser. If you can't comply with an unreasonable request are you wrong? I thought the legal credo of American society was INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY. Shouldn't the burden then be for us to prove they do have these weapons? I've never heard of a murder trial where the defendant was burdened to prove that they DIDN'T kill someone.
I'm not saying there isn't reason to effect change. I just think the U.S. should tread lightly in matters such as these. Allies one day can become enemies the next and there are a lot of religiously aligned countries that are stradleing the fence here. The bigger you are the harder you fall because you begin to underestimate your opponent(s) and over estimate your own position.

Controlled or not controlled?
The dice shows two faces.
Not controlled or controlled,
Both are a grievous error.

When the hubless wheel turns,
Master or no master can stop it.
It turns above heaven and below earth,
South, north, east, west.

A hundred hearings cannot surpass one seeing,
But after you see the teacher, that one glance
cannot surpass a hundred hearings.
His nose was very high,
But he was blind after all.

When the sky is clear the sun appears,
When the earth is parched rain will fall.
he opened his heart fully and spoke out,
But it was useless to talk to pigs and fish.

Words cannot describe everything.
The heart's message cannot be delivered in words.
If one receives words literally, he will be lost,
If he tries to explain with words he will
not attain enlightenment in this life.


Just my 2¢.
GUNG ;)

[MR. Pinchy]

GUNGY the end of that post was just breathtaking.. did you write that yourself or are you a lyrical thief...?HA!!!
ANYWAY I don't think we need to go to war over this thing just yet, but I do think that saddam is a truely evil human being and needs to be removed from power. Further more I can tell you that we get only about 10% of the oil we consume in this country from the entire middle east. Over in Europe they get a much larger pecentage from the middle east, and thats what were fighting for, the interests of our allies, whom of which I must say the majoraty of, are being mighty bitchy about this whole thing, but seem to want us to take care of it.. (put all the pressure on Saddam that is, not go to war.
Now, North Korea. I don't know What the hell they want other than attention and money.. Well they got our attention by restarting there nuclear facilities, and if they want money they probably have a nice long line of terrorist organizations pounding on their border doors looking for weapons grade plutonium to send us........
Maybe it's all speculation, maybe not, but if you say how ugly can it get? It could world wide UGLY!

P.S. I didn't vote because I think we should send in a seal team to take out Saddam and a bunch of his Luitenents, let their government crumble, and see who they ask for help from when they are trying to restructure the government and rebuild their country. The old cut off the head and the body dies. (no I don't believe in the headless horsemen).

[MR. Pinchy]

GUNGY the end of that post was just breathtaking.. did you write that yourself or are you a lyrical thief...?HA!!!
ANYWAY I don't think we need to go to war over this thing just yet, but I do think that saddam is a truely evil human being and needs to be removed from power. Further more I can tell you that we get only about 10% of the oil we consume in this country from the entire middle east. Over in Europe they get a much larger pecentage from the middle east, and thats what were fighting for, the interests of our allies, whom of which I must say the majoraty of, are being mighty bitchy about this whole thing, but seem to want us to take care of it.. (put all the pressure on Saddam that is, not go to war.
Now, North Korea. I don't know What the hell they want other than attention and money.. Well they got our attention by restarting there nuclear facilities, and if they want money they probably have a nice long line of terrorist organizations pounding on their border doors looking for weapons grade plutonium to send us........
Maybe it's all speculation, maybe not, but if you say how ugly can it get? It could world wide UGLY!

P.S. I didn't vote because I think we should send in a seal team to take out Saddam and a bunch of his Luitenents, let their government crumble, and see who they ask for help from when they are trying to restructure the government and rebuild their country. The old cut off the head and the body dies. (no I don't believe in the headless horsemen).

[Mr_Cheeze]

Two votes for the cynical oil argument. Hmmm. Well, it should be obvious to anyone who is paying attention that of course oil is one of the reasons we are seeking to topple the Saddam regime, even if not implicitely stated by the Bush administration. Aside from the completely different issue of whether we rely too much upon foreign oil - or oil, period - the fact remains that we are completely dependent upon the black gold. We also know that Saddam certainly desires, more than anything, to control as much of the Middle East's oil as he possibly can, hence his idiotic invasion of Kuwait in 1991. His entire M.O. is to get oil. All of Iraq's secretly amassing of weapons is in Hussein's grand design to have the world at his feet begging for fossil fuel. Of course, this only goes to show that he is as crazy and out of touch with reality as Michael Jackson.

Yes, I realize everything I just stated is speculation. I only aim to argue the point that it is not such a bad thing that we fight for oil. Considering every single one of us reading these posts would not be doing as such without energy to power and heat homes and businesses and gasoline to drive back and forth to work, we have an absolute and most imperative stake in making sure that Saddam never carries out even a single stage of his scheme.

[johnnyt]

In 1998 Iraq had something like 6500 pounds of known chemical weapons. This was known because that is when the original inspections ended and the UN inspectors had accounted for these chemicals. In their recent declaration to the UN they said they have none. Where did they go? If they destroyed them as they say, then why didn't they invite the world in to watch? Why didn't they destroy these weapons during the 7 years of previous inspections?

It is ludicrous to think that our intellegence agencies are going to release everything they know to UN and to us the public. That would likely cause some serious breaches in our national security. I hope that after we invade Iraq and lay waste to their military machine our government shows the world the stockpiles of chemicals and other nasty stuff they were hiding. Perhaps then all of the folks that don't buy it will understand.

Additionally, when the Iraqi people are freed from their dictator and thank us for releasing them from the oppression and fear, I hope folks take notice. I hope the media doesn't focus on the few civilians that are killed and the mistakes because there will be some. There will more good for the Iraqi people as a result of the demise of the current regime then ill. Imagine how happy people in Iraq will be when the can get food and medical care a do not have to fearsaying something that will get them shot in the head!

Taking preemptive action is scary, no doubt. But if you consider history, it could have saved millions of lives about 60 years ago. The League of Nations had a dictator it was trying to deal with peacefully through sanctions. He refused to cooperate and governments ignored him and hoped he would go away. He didn't. He got stronger and stronger building his military machine until he was ready. Then Hitler invaded Poland and World War II erupted. How many people died as a result of the League of Nations not acting to stop Hitler before he amassed a huge military? Doesn't France remember this? As a result, the League of Nations crumbled and the world was thrust into a war like none before. Millions and millions of people all over the globe died. What country made a decissive change in this war? Yup, it was us! Now many of the folks we helped during their time of need are ignoring history. How short sighted!

Are we prepared for that type of war again? Is it possible that if we take out Hussein now we could avoid history repeating itself? Unfortunately, we can only chose one path and we will never know what would have happened down the other. But if history is an indicator, and who will argue that it is not, then we need to act now. We need to act to avert a more collossal war, we need to act to save lives, we need to act to spare the UN the fate of the League of Nations, we need to act to free the Iraqi people from their oppressive leader, and on and on.

Once Hussein is out, Iraq will rebuild. They do have oil and therefore will have the $ to build a new infrastructure and life for themselves. With not only the help of the US, but the world, including Russia and France, Iraq will regain its prominence in the Middle East and in the world. Iraqis are a very educated and intellectual country. The people need a chance. Saddam needs a bullet in his head...

Rant off..........

I am starting to think that even if Iraq uses biological weapons against neighboring countries, and even if Iraq assassinates all of the U.N inspectors, France, Russia, and China will still insist that diplomacy is the best course of actions.

F*ucking cowards.


While I have elected to not get involved in any real discussions on this forum, as an American I get involved in the happenings of the world and try to absorb all possible angles. My political and socio -economic views support Powell's findings. But this is for you IAB. From Dennis Prager at Townhall.com:

What Americans want to President to Say

My fellow Americans:

After consulting with our loyal allies in Europe, speaking with United Nations officials, reading major American newspapers, listening to National Public Radio, consulting with Hollywood movie stars, and meeting with professors from our universities, I have changed my mind.

They are right.

I now realize that the most important goal America and its president can pursue is to be liked, hopefully loved, by mankind, and especially by France, Germany, China, and the Arab world.

I now realize that we Americans who think in terms of good and evil are simpletons. We should think, as the professors do, in multicultural terms and, therefore, render no moral judgment over Iraq or any other nation except Israel. Who am I to declare any regimes an "axis of evil"?

I now realize that it was arrogance to make such a judgment on three regimes governed by men whom I should have tried better to understand. Now that I realize America's primary goal is to be liked, I will never again call any regime evil. In fact, in consultation with the presidents and deans of our major universities, I have decided to rename the governments of Iraq, Iran and North Korea an Axis of Diversity.

I now realize that the only reason I ever considered putting thousands of young American lives in jeopardy was because of oil. I was deluded in thinking that Saddam Hussein might use his weapons of destruction against vast numbers of innocents, or to think because Saddam erased a sovereign nation from the map in 1991, he would contemplate doing such a thing again. The French have taught me that the way to deal with people whom I used to believe were evil is by giving them business contracts.

Yes, all these people knew better than I that I considered attacking Iraq only in order to obtain cheap gas for American SUVs. Even though it would have cost us far more money to topple Saddam Hussein than we would make from Iraqi oil. Even though I could simply have done what the French and Russians have done -- make deals with Saddam to buy all the oil we want. And even though we publicly promised that after Saddam, Iraqi oil will belong to the Iraqi people.

Despite all that, the left somehow recognized that a war against Iraq was really only a way to enrich my oil buddies. The left, whom I used to foolishly identify with appeasing and defending evil, have opened my eyes. They are right that nothing America does is out of a sense of mission to lead humanity in confronting evil. That was all a cover up for our true motivation -- more wealth. That is why we alone stand by Israel -- for all that oil in the Negev. That is why we protect Taiwan -- for Taiwan's bounteous natural resources. From now on, our moral model must be the Europeans who shape their Middle Eastern policies so as to be loved by 200 million Arabs rather than by a few million Israelis.

I now realize that America must be guided by Germany with its 100-year record of moral leadership; by France with nearly as long a record of standing up to evil; by our university professors, who almost alone in America understand that America and Israel are the world's villains; by the United Nations, which was so prescient in doing nothing during the Rwanda genocide and today provides more moral light with Syria on its Security Council and Libya heading its Human Rights Commission; by The New York Times and other newspapers that so insightfully attacked President Ronald Reagan for labeling the Soviet Union an evil empire; and by China, which I used to identify with cultural genocide in Tibet, but thanks to my new desire to be loved, I will now regard only as a huge potential source of love and cheap imports.

My fellow Americans, I will no longer be calling you "my fellow Americans," but rather, "my fellow earthlings" or "my fellow citizens of the world." Nor will I conclude this or any future address by asking that God bless America. That annoys secular Europe, and if we aim to be loved, we can no longer speak in religious terms.

Finally, given my new belief that America's task in the world is not to lead but to be loved, I have decided to step down from the presidency as soon as Congress and the states pass a constitutional amendment allowing Al Gore to be president. He, my predecessor President Clinton, and the whole Democratic Party have long believed that America's purpose is to be loved. They should be governing.

My fellow world citizens, peace and love.

[Mr_Cheeze]

That was beautiful. :'(