WAR

[knucklebuste]

Alrighty folks. Here we go. A poll that the forum has been dying for and also my favorite subject. WAR. As an X-MARINE 24th MEU(SOC) Operation United Shield and Operation Deliberate Force I am a strong advocate for war. Actually I can't wait to sit in the comfort of my nice warm livingroom with a nice cold frosty watching the S hit the Fan on CNN. But thats just my personal opinion. Here's your chance to speak out. I've left a few options for you folks, but as I suspect, most of you are not in favor of war and will not back our President Mr. George Bush. Well Vote, Vent, Curse, Yell. Whatever, now's the time to get it all out of your system. Knuckle

[I Are Baboon]

I think we should wait until we have U.N. support and assistance from other U.N. countries. There is enough anti-US sentiment in the world without us going to war on our own.

[Big Game]

Iraq has been in a state of war for thirty years. The US has been in a de facto war with Iraq since 91 trying to enforce the terms of the cease-fire. An escalation of an already on-going war would result in a quicker end to this mess.... Which means less overall human suffering, which I think we would all agree is a good thing.

[knucklebuste]

Big Game, you forgot to vote

[MMcG]

What happened to our war on terrorism and Osama Bin Laden?

I fear that if we throw all our attention to Iraq, that we'll be ripe for another major catastrophic terrorist attack.

We should finish one job/mission, before we launch into another IMO.

[Big Game]

What happened to our war on terrorism and Osama Bin Laden?

I fear that if we throw all our attention to Iraq, that we'll be ripe for another major catastrophic terrorist attack.

We should finish one job/mission, before we launch into another IMO.


I agree. Fighting two front simultaneously is fool-hardy. I say we finish what we need to first with Japan, then we'll take on Hitler and his Nazi gangsters.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I used to advocate going to war. It should be quite obvious to anyone who is not completely ignorant that Hussein is an evil, dangerous man and needs to be taken out. It could be argued that we had plenty of chances to do so in the past, and one can even wonder, thinking conspiratorily, why it was not done. But you know what... I am sick and tired of countries like France and Russia, et. al., going against us in everything we do. Maybe we should just let Saddam use a weapon, like our leaders believe he will, and then just close our borders to EVERYONE and tell all of our detractors that they are on their own.

Besides, Hussein would have to be completely suicidal to ever use one on US soil, if he ever even developes the capacity to do so. That would ensure the utter annihilation of Iraq, Hiroshima style.

The thing that I don't understand is this notion by too many people in this country that we have to have a UN coalition. Why the hell should we give a **** what a bunch of third-world countries led by dictators who have their own agendas think of us? So there is anti-US sentiment. Boo freaking hoo. That is the price we pay for being the world's only superpower.

Eh, screw it. Maybe we should just nuke the whole Middle East, Israel too, since they are the main reason we are so hated over there.

[CouchingTiger]

I guess that I'm kind of apathetic for this one, as I felt we should have just finished the job the 1st time. Most American's are fat and lazy and easy to forget. They don't see a good reason to fuss with Iraq. It's not until they get slammed in the head that they wake up and see what's really going on. How many Americans were concerned with terror before 09.11 and worse, how many are still concerned today, a year and change later.

I realize that there are lots of issues that aren't fully obvious, that have to be considered when making political and military decisions. Things like, if we'd have nuked Hussein then who's running the show in Iraq? Same thing with Cuba, same thing happens in Central and South America all the time. Lesser of two evils.

I'm sure the thought was that we'd spank Saddam and he wouldn't make waves. The problem was simply that he kept making waves. Sure, Iraq won't be able to launch nukes at the US, ever, but what happens when he nukes Kuwait?We'll all have to take a second job to feed those fat S.U.V.'s (and yes, I own one too).

The US has, arguably, become the world peace keeping force as well as the world police force. That said, we are not always working in our direct interest, but in the interest of our allies as well.

That said, I still think we need to take care of the initial business at hand, that being Bin Laden. Did we forget about him? Maybe not. Maybe we need to take focus off of him and place it on somene else so he can be quietly and secretly removed. Who knows, but I certainly don't think we can afford to forget him, or what he did to US.

-Couch

[knucklebuste]

I'm with you Mr Cheese. Whenever a country is in need of food or money where do they come? USA
Whenever a country is in need of military help, where do they come for for help? USA
When we in return need them for support what do they do?
Curl up in a corner in a ball yelling "no, no, no"
Well screw em. So what if the world hates us. Who gives a ****. I'm still gonna be eating N.Y Sirloin on Friday night sippin frosties at my fat crib, I'm still gonna be buying 4000.00 dollar bikes. I think we should have an internationally broadcasted "Life in the US" television program to further let the rest of the world know how we live. Here's Knuckle for instance. He goes to work for 8 hours (if he can last that long) sits in front of the computer all day on the internet, hacking web sites, looking at bikes and post whoring all day. Then he goes home, does up a nice fat boy and eats a 5 course meal. Plays a little PS2, checks his email. Works on a bike. Watches TV and then goes to bed. And he makes more in a week than most middle easterners will make in 5 years. And to further elaborate, Knuckle is only what we call a "middle class citizen". Next week on "Life in the US" we're going to go to Venice Beach, CA to see how folks out there live. Yeah, that will be perfect. Maybee it will either piss them off even more, or give them some motivation to go out, work, grab a little self-worth and pride and get a f*cking life instead of looking for attention strapping bombs to their chest and taking out 100 people at a time. Now there's an idea. GET A F*CKING JOB you rat bastards. God I can't stand non-self sufficient people. Yeah I got an easy job, but the only reason I have anything in life is because I get up and go to work "EVERY GOD DAMN DAY" as well as my wife. These arabs need to get a clue real quick as we have the ultimate weapon right now, we had it befor and we have it again. PRESIDENT BUSH
My message is "DON'T F WITH THE USA" you are going to lose, you always will lose, and you will never live like us. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Knuckle ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Oh yeah as far as Bin Laden; he's not even worth going after. He's just a little worm that will be on dialysis in a couple of years eating meals out of a straw. We got bigger things to do than chase after his unorganized network of terrorists. Korea will end up diplomatically resolved. Look at the countries around Korea. You think they a nuclear war over there on their turf? Forget it. Hussein is the one to worry about. He wants a nuclear bomb to kill us, the USA. Korea is just looking for a little leverage so they can extract some Green out of us as they too are un-self sufficient due mostly perhaps to the idiots that run that piece of sh*t country which would be better off under the ocean.
Knuckle out, Peace

[I Are Baboon]

The thing that I don't understand is this notion by too many people in this country that we have to have a UN coalition. Why the hell should we give a **** what a bunch of third-world countries led by dictators who have their own agendas think of us? So there is anti-US sentiment. Boo freaking hoo. That is the price we pay for being the world's only superpower.

If we attack Iraq, we're doing it for what we believe is the good of the world. Why should we be the only country to use resources? We shouldn't be the only ones to put our troops in battle. Sure, we make the world a better place, costing us billions in resources and most likely losing a lot of troops in the process, but every other U.N. country benefits from it.

[knucklebuste]

Hussein = Antichrist
Must be done.
Knuckle :o

[CouchingTiger]

Oh yeah as far as Bin Laden; he's not even worth going after. He's just a little worm that will be on dialysis in a couple of years eating meals out of a straw. We got bigger things to do than chase after his unorganized network of terrorists.


Isn't that what we said about Bin Laden after we were through with him and the Mujadeen in Afganistan in the late 80's?

-Couch

[knucklebuste]

Well some freinds of mine who are still in the military told me that the Iraq thing is a two tier tactic. A. To finish the job in Iraq once and for all and B. To take the media presence away from Bin Laden to mabee draw him out so secret operatives in Afghanistan can get him. By no means have we forgotton about Bin Laden. We just see and hear what the media provides us with. What we do not see and hear is what is going on behind closed doors in the CIA, White House and such. Mr. Bush has not forgotton about Bin Laden.
Knuckle

[Kenquig]

I hate war. As the father of a 16 year old who could be in harm’s way in a few years it is impossible to joke about the subject.

In the long term the US should work in ways that avoid war.

The only true way to win a war is to totally wipe out the will of the people you are warring with, as the US did with Japan and Germany. After that set up a prosperous democracy. It worked in Japan and Western Europe.

In times of peace the US seems to take the easy route by support dictatorships in the name of stability instead of taking the difficult route of promoting democracy. You can hear this philosophy now when CNN or Fox News discuss Iraq after we take them out. They talk about Iraqi society not being ready for democracy. Promoting prosperous democracies instead of dictatorships whenever possible may eliminate the necessity of annihilating countries.

In the short term we need to go into Iraq (alone if necessary). We cannot placate madmen as was learned in the 1930’s.

Back to biking.

Ken

[CouchingTiger]

I hate war. As the father of a 16 year old who could be in harm’s way in a few years it is impossible to joke about the subject.

In the long term the US should work in ways that avoid war.

The only true way to win a war is to totally wipe out the will of the people you are warring with, as the US did with Japan and Germany. After that set up a prosperous democracy. It worked in Japan and Western Europe.

In times of peace the US seems to take the easy route by support dictatorships in the name of stability instead of taking the difficult route of promoting democracy. You can hear this philosophy now when CNN or Fox News discuss Iraq after we take them out. They talk about Iraqi society not being ready for democracy. Promoting prosperous democracies instead of dictatorships whenever possible may eliminate the necessity of annihilating countries.

In the short term we need to go into Iraq (alone if necessary). We cannot placate madmen as was learned in the 1930’s.

Back to biking.

Ken



I understand the sentiment of sending children to fight, but it hasn't come to that. All of those fighting for the US are professional soldiers (or at least temp soldiers concerning the Guard).

Also, one thing that 09.11 should have taught each and every one of is that when it comes to terror, even though we are civilians, we ARE ALL potentially in harms way. Yes, it's a bit more random, but given that you don't know the enemy and are often helpless to fight back.

-Couch

[Mr_Cheeze]

No surprise that Jeff Jacoby, the only conservative columnist for the Boston Globe, once again does a masterful job of stripping away the facade that is the UN in his latest contribution. Anyone who naively believes that a UN resolution is most important, I implore you to read this article.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/023/oped/UN_lacks_moral_fiber_to_back_US+.shtml

[Kenquig]

Dear Couch,

I realize the draft ended even before I was of age. Your "professional soldiers" are recruited mostly from our 17 to 24 year olds. Even though they are "professional soldiers" they are still our children, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, etc. We should not take their fate lightly just because they have volunteered to do this countries military wishes.

I actually prefer to think of our military as a citizens army run by professionals.

Anyway my main point was that there are strategical and a tactical actions. The tactical action is to take out the Iraqi regime through whatever means possible. Right now that looks like military action or the threat of military action.

So in the short term I agree with you.

Stategically though I think we support far too many governments that are not, of and by the people, of their countries. I think we do not support people who would set up governments that are truly democratic. I think this is because it is easy to support a dictator to "balance the power" in a region or to "stabilize" a region. It is much harder to support true democratic movements throughout the world.

So stategically we need to stop supporting the Suadi Arabias and the Iraqis (when fighting against Iran) and the Shahs of Iran etc. Supporting them just causes long term trouble.

My $.02

Ken

[CouchingTiger]

Ken,

I'm 100% in agreement with you. All I meant by the professional soldiers was that nobody was in the services against their will, they all volunteered and have been and are collecting pay for their service.

I agreed that we prop up too my unpopular and possibly corrupt regeimes is the name of democracy, but simply wanted to note that there are reasons, whether or not we agree with them. They are not arbitrary decisions.

-Couch

[Mr_Cheeze]

As much as I would like to believe and have a reason to depose or dispose of Saddam, I just cannot shake the doubts I have from the less than convincing case that Bush and Co. are putting out there for public consumption. Condaleeza Rice had an article in yesterdays New York Times that explained how Iraq has been in violation of the original post-Gulf-was disarmament treaty for 12 years and that it is our reserved right to do whatever we have to to enforce it. I don't know. That seems like a weak argument considering we'll be putting American military personnel's lives in mortal danger.

I believe Bush will deliver his state of the union address on Tuesday. He had better make his better case at that time or this could end up being as unpopular a war as Vietnam ended up being. Or if they go ahead with said war, they had better uncover lots of hidden caches of ballistic missiles or chemical or biological weapons. Yet, something tells me that much of what he likely had is in Syria or Yemen or somewhere else by now.

[knucklebuste]

Well it's official folks, lets go in alone and blow it up. In reality, that is probably what is going to happen anyhow, we'll maybee we'll have G.B along side of us and I guess that's cool, but as usual I we can say that we're basically going to fight this battle alone, and we will be victorious, and hated as well for trying to do the best for mankind, untill the U.S haters need some food or money; then they'll stop hating us for a while, as usual. Knuckle