Feedback on Back Country Excursions (of Maine)?

[jshefftz]

I noticed in another thread a reference to Back Country Excursions (of Maine), and was quite surprised to see any positive feedback regarding this operation. Has anyone else been there? All I have to relate are horror stories, and that’s all I’ve heard from others until now.
I’ll confirm that Cliff does have access to excellent terrain, and he’s built a neat little skills development terrain park (“Rock-N-Log Palace/Technical Terrain Park”) plus transformed what would simply be an awesome dh singletrack up above his house into an outrageous north store-style descent (“Back Country Expressway Trail”). But that is pretty much where I run out of anything positive to say.
The enticing description of our trip can be found at:
http://www.bikebackcountry.com/calendar.html
...and scroll down to:
“Availablity upon request and limitied to small groups, families, minimum four. - Land and Sea Mountain Biking Weekends: Enjoy the best of land and sea within the same weekend adventure; a full day of relaxed, off-road mountain biking on picturesque Great Chebeague Island and a full day of exciting trail exploration at BCE, in the beautiful foothills of the White Mountains. Costs: (include 2 nights accommodations, Sat. breakfast and Sun. breakfast & lunch, ferry ride and garage parking, guided rides, all amenities at BCE) Camping $145, Yurt (bunkhouse) $165, private room $185.”
The reality was different. Our small (barely bigger than the bed) room was private only if you didn’t count all the exotic bugs (which I’ve never seen before or since). The bathroom was a mess since it was shared by everyone in the tents and yurt.
Saturday morning we carpooled for a high-speed, loosely organized drive to Portland, where we caught a ferry. The terrain was about as interesting as your backyard, except that it actually always was someone’s backyard, which come to think of it did make things interesting when that someone was not on vacation and was instead there, telling us politely (though apparently not clearly enough for Cliff) to turn around and leave. (Made riding the orange trail in the Fells feel like being a nice responsible NEMBA-card-carrying goodie-two-shoes.)
After breakfast Sunday morning (forgot another positive thing: his blueberry waffles are very good), we goofed around in his terrain park while he bickered with his girlfriend Ruth about some unknown matter. By the time they were ready to go, it was past 11:00, and we were almost ready for lunch.
Cliff displayed a shockingly cavalier attitude toward the safety of the novice readers. We then split off into an advanced group, leaving us to feel very sorry for the novice riders, since Ruth was clearly not capable of being a mtn bike guide. Then again, she wasn’t that much worse than Cliff, who overall is only a marginally competent guide - I’m not comparing him to the professional licensed ski mountaineering guides we’ve hired in Chamonix & North Conway, but rather just to various NEMBA volunteer ride leaders (e.g., Triple Basin Blast), and even the RAGE Belmont night ride I went on a few weeks ago.
Finally, as we were ready to leave, Cliff decreed that we had not spent as much time as the other guests cleaning up the kitchen after meals, and that therefore we must clean up the guest bathroom. He then retired to the hot tub with his girlfriend. (After which we fled back to Boston in terror.)

[Dawgee]

ive been to cliffs twice. i had a good time the first time . the second time was even better. he has acess to alot of the land now and is allowed to build trails.we went for a trail building weekend which was fun. it seems the more people the better.i know i was prepared to help out with meals and things before we went its on the web-site.he hires competent helpers now. me and my girl friend went up for a few days when no one was there (this was the first time we went) and it was ok. i have nothing bad to say about it and will go again. its just a matter of what you expect i guess.

[AGENTGRAPE]

I WENT IN AUGUST FOR THE MICROBREW FEST WEEKEND WITH 5 GUYS WE ALL HAD A GREAT TIME ALL THE GUIDES WERE FINE THE BEST RIDE WE DID WAS WITH RUTH, A VERY LARGE GROUP 20+ RIDERS OF ALL ABILITIES FROM BEGINNER TO ADVANCED. THE GUEST ROOMS DOWNSTAIRS ARE SMALL WE HAD 3 IN ONE ROOM AND 2 IN THE OTHER.THE BATHROOM IS A MESSY SITUATION BUT YOUR OUT IN THE WOODS. ITS NOT A FANCY 5 STAR HOTEL OR B&B AND THEY ARE UP FRONT ABOUT PITCHING IN TO CLEAN UP.ITS A COMMUNAL VIBE THERE. IF YOU NEED PAMPERING MAYBE THIS ISNT FOR YOU.THE RIDING WAS EXCELLENT THEY HAVE VERY DETAILED MAPS SO YOU CAN GO OUT AND EXPLORE.OVERALL WE RODE LIKE MANIACS ALL WEEKEND,GUZZLED GRITTY'S MICROBREWS LIKE VIKINGS.WERE WELL FED.AND HAD A GREAT TIME. WE ARE BOOKING FOR NEXT SUMMERS WEEKEND AND ARE TAKING MORE PEOPLE. LAST NOTE TRY TO BE A GUIDE ON A GROUP RIDE SOMETIME ITS NOT EASY KEEPING STRAGGLERS TOGETHER ,KEEPING EVERYONE ON THE SAME TRAIL AND GETTING EVERYBODY BACK.

[EVIL BOTA]

O.k. I have been to cliffs little home on the hill. Here is my take.#1 Its a bit exspensive since you are exspected to help clean up after ur paid meals..(pay to stay and meals and u clean NOT!)
#2 Don't rent a room or stay in his screen house.
#3 If you are a meat eater don't plan on having anything thats gonna fill you up. Since tofu is about as filling a a mcdonalds salad.
#4 Drinking and having a good time is fine as long as ur in bed by 10:00 pm
Those are the bad points.
Here is the reasons to go

#1 The riding was great
#2 The riding was great
#3 The riding was great
#4 For you to have a better time. Camp(tent and air mattres works well) up on the hill next to his house and bring a grill with plenty of MEATand beer.
Cliff is a good guy,but he is the crunchy chewy type if you know what I mean..
#5 Hit his new trail at the top hill from his house ..kicks ass.

[hogboy]

I WENT IN AUGUST FOR THE MICROBREW FEST WEEKEND WITH 5 GUYS WE ALL HAD A GREAT TIME ALL THE GUIDES WERE FINE THE BEST RIDE WE DID WAS WITH RUTH, A VERY LARGE GROUP 20+ RIDERS OF ALL ABILITIES FROM BEGINNER TO ADVANCED. THE GUEST ROOMS DOWNSTAIRS ARE SMALL WE HAD 3 IN ONE ROOM AND 2 IN THE OTHER.THE BATHROOM IS A MESSY SITUATION BUT YOUR OUT IN THE WOODS. ITS NOT A FANCY 5 STAR HOTEL OR B&B AND THEY ARE UP FRONT ABOUT PITCHING IN TO CLEAN UP.ITS A COMMUNAL VIBE THERE. IF YOU NEED PAMPERING MAYBE THIS ISNT FOR YOU.THE RIDING WAS EXCELLENT THEY HAVE VERY DETAILED MAPS SO YOU CAN GO OUT AND EXPLORE.OVERALL WE RODE LIKE MANIACS ALL WEEKEND,GUZZLED GRITTY'S MICROBREWS LIKE VIKINGS.WERE WELL FED.AND HAD A GREAT TIME. WE ARE BOOKING FOR NEXT SUMMERS WEEKEND AND ARE TAKING MORE PEOPLE. LAST NOTE TRY TO BE A GUIDE ON A GROUP RIDE SOMETIME ITS NOT EASY KEEPING STRAGGLERS TOGETHER ,KEEPING EVERYONE ON THE SAME TRAIL AND GETTING EVERYBODY BACK.

[Andrea]

I went to Cliff's for a weekend a couple of years ago and would never go back there again. No doubt the biking is pretty good around his house, but he charges lots of money for a barebones guide service. My experience left me feeling that he tries to make a huge profit off of guests (which he does) by providing very little in return.

Some of the Negative things:
1. Bug-ridden, urine smelling bedroom
2. Cliff is very skimpy on food and ran out of some
3. Cliff never notified us beforehand that guests are expected to clean up (mop, clean the bathrooms, etc.) Paying that much money to stay there, he better dam well clean these up himself! We couldnt believe that Cliff had guests cleaning his place while he and Ruth went into the hottub.
4. Cliff took us all to an island off the coast of Maine to go biking one of the days as advertised. Well, it turns out, he said he purposively takes us there in October when vacationers are away. We spent almost the whole time riding in a dense housing area in people's coastal backyards. One homeowner happened to be in and asked what we were doing riding on his newly seeded lawn, and Cliff proceeded to get into an argument with him. It was a bad embarrassing scene.
5. Cliff and Ruth bickered the whole time. I like my guides to be personable, fun, and knowledgeable.

I'm comparing my experience with Cliff to my experiences of going to Craftsbury, VT (where you stay in a rustic dorm room and eat communal style) and going on guided mtn biking camping trips out West. Rating these on a scale of 1 (worse)to 100 (best), I would give Cliff a 15 and Craftsbury and Western guided trips both 100. I'm not willing to shovel out lots of money to Cliff for little in return.

[EVIL BOTA]

Amen. Maybe Cliff should read this post . He could learn a little something.

[jshefftz]

Just to make it clear what I’m comparing Cliff’s outfit to and what I expect:

- For accommodations, there’s no point in comparing the private room to even the cheapest of the many cheapo motels I’ve stayed at. A better comparison is to the AMC mountain huts, the Refuge d’Argentierre (above a glacier in Chamonix, at the start of the haute route), or maybe even getting a tent platform relatively close to the bathroom at the Burke Mtn campground. Here Cliff just barely wins out, although certainly not in the value department.

- For riding terrain, the island was a complete joke, even given the “relaxing” description. The terrain around his house is good, but outside of that one north shore-style trail, not great. Far less impressive than, say, the Kingdom Trails near Burke VT, or even all the technical singletrack in the Holyoke Range.

- For guiding skills, comparing him to professional guides - e.g., Chamonix ski mountaineering guides, Marc Chauvin in North Conway, Escape Adventures staff on the Bryce-Zion trip - is absolutely pointless. A better comparison would be to NEMBA leaders on the Triple Basin Blast and Hop-Up Twenty, a certain philosophy prof at the Holyoke Range, or even the RAGE Belmont night rides. Even against these amateur unpaid volunteers, Cliff comes up woefully short.

As for helping out after meals, we did. But Cliff told us - as we were literally getting into the car - that he didn’t think it was enough. So after already having paid him several hundred bucks and cleaned up after meals, he wanted us to play janitor so he could hop in the hot tub w/ his girlfriend.

Overall, it’s paying big bucks for what you can get almost for free elsewhere, plus the value-subtracted services of a guy whose group handling skills are probably worse than most of your biking buddies and whose respect for mtn biking good will is so low that he leads commercial tours across private homeowners’ yards.

[cliffk]

FOOL OR WISEPERSON OR BOTH RUNS MT BIKING Business

I appreciate the spirited, honest feedback from some of you that have graced these parts at Back Country Excursions in past and more present. I've been operating this gig now for 12 years...hard to believe. There have been wonderful experiences for myself and others, there have been disappointing times for myself and others, and always corrections,improvements, and changes..always changes.

I must definitely appologize to any of you that experienced any of those failures, diissapointments, misunderstandings, I've had my share and I don't suspect that I'll ever get away from these altogether.

But being a public sort of person you quickly come to find that there will always b happy satisfied folks and unhappy unsatisfied folks. More recently in the past several 2-3 years we've been encountering many more happy riders prior to there arrival here and afterwards. I attribute this to a couple of things: Just more satisfyed people out there riding these days less bitchin and moanin going on.
Also we've been listening to folks better as more of you have been talking to our faces up close and /have takin your suggestions.

We have always tryed to present our thing as it really is but rustic to one is sometimes not rustic to another.

Maine is naturaly a buggy place especially in May and sometimes thru June. July, Aug, and thru the fall its not a factor.

Trail maps are well notated and marked now and we're running some great selections of singketract...seen lots of smiles lately. We've expanded our camping facilities and now offer a low camp rate and try to include a guided ride to get you oriented to the maps and all trail heads. And if you're looking for meat on the menu it's here now but you can just do your own thing for food and just camp and get the maps and guide as well.

Our rooms have always been ample not large but clean.
Our facilities are clean as we and the others that stay here keep them. FOR FURTHER FEEDBACK FROM OTHER CLIENTS
that have been here over the past few years CHECK OUT www.mtbr.com ...Go to trail listings under Maine and scroll down to the Back Country Expressway trail.

In all fairness I Just want to take a moment to appreciate those of you that had positive comments about our operations and take the time to smell the pines, the roses,blueberries,maple syrup, and waffles. Look forward to more discussions and great riding ..after all isn't this what its all about!! Cliff

[jshefftz]

"I've been operating this gig now for 12 years...hard to believe."
- I'm glad we can reach consensus on at least that.

[EVIL BOTA]

???????????????// JEFF?

[jshefftz]

If "JEFF?" is directed at jshefftz, then by:
*****
"I've been operating this gig now for 12 years...hard to believe."
- I'm glad we can reach consensus on at least that.
*****
... I meant that I too find it hard to believe that Cliff has managed to get away with over 12 years of charging guests big bucks for:
- guiding that is far inferior than that provided for free by NEMBA and RAGE volunteers; and,
- terrain that is nothing better than that provided for free by public parks, forests, and reservations.

[radair]

I've never been to Cliff's place, but have ridden the trails there a few times. The trails are on public land, and I prefer to find my own way than be guided anyway. While I can't comment on Cliff's operation, I can say that I've really liked the riding there. There is some very cool singletrack and nice terrain, and overall the trail layout is interesting.

I do have some comments about the stunts & bridges. I've ridden most of the stunts and found the lines to be very good. The construction of the bridges for the most part, however, is very poor, IMO. Most are made of small diameter trees/branches that are well-spaced. Spaced far enough that your foot could easily go through them if you were to try to dab. One bridge had a broken slat just where you dropped onto it from a large boulder. When I checked this out, I found three other pieces around the broken one that weren't even nailed down. The wood is native hardwood that will rot out in a few seasons (and in some cases already is rotting).

I assume Cliff knows that by charging people money, he's opening himself up to liability if someone gets racked on one of these poorly constructed bridges. But then that's not my business, it's his.

[Adam]

I've been to BCE twice and wanted to make some comments in support of Cliff & his operation. Some friends and I went up for the land-sea biking weekend & the other a work/ride weekend where we helped Cliff cut some fresh new singletrack.

The comments I've read are generally quite positive about the quality of riding at Cliff's & on neighboring land. I can't disagree-the singletrack rides, man-made obstacles, and Cliff's guiding are excellent.

A large number of negative comments are along the 'I paid big bucks and had to help do dishes/saw a bug in my room/didn't like the community atmosphere' lines.

Let's put things in perspective- A 1 day weekend whitewater rafting trip in Maine will run you $125 + lodging. If you're lucky you'll get an industrial-grade steak lunch with that. Your guide might be an experienced one, but chances are you'll be guided by a green high school or college kid who's spent a couple of summers on the water-not a veteran who's been instructing for over a decade. Yes, there are a ton of black flies in the Maine woods, and you may even get cold/wet/uncomfortable.

BCE costs $140-160 for 2.5 days of riding, lodging, and many meals. A 2 day Dirt Camp resort mtn. biking clinic (also highly recommended) will run you $175 for 2 days of lift-tickets & instruction (lodging & meals are *not* included). About the only cheaper mtn. biking weekend you'll find is a do-it-yourselfer group weekend with your buddies. BCE supports NEMBA-ever wonder how much those ads in Singletracks cost? I'm sure Cliff could tell us a thing or two about trail access advocacy in his area.

As for helping w/ dishes, you've noticed there's no cafeteria-sized dishroom at Cliff's. The eating is family-style. I don't recall it ever taking more than 10 or 15 minutes to clean up after a large group meal. Everyone pitches in, talks about the day's riding/the nights microbrew tasting, and it's done quickly. That homemade chow sure goes down more easily than that Wopper I sucked down on the way home from Lynn Woods the other day:)

The fact that we have so many choices in New England -BCE, Dirt Camp, VT trips like Kingdom Trails, in addition to the dozens of day riding nearby makes us very lucky. I would definitely revisit BCE.

[EVIL BOTA]

Like I had said .The riding was great..But for your money the food is not that great(unless ur into tofu ,humas) .The only decent food always seem to run out. The cleaning aspect of it ..Sorry I paid to go riding ,Not to clean dishes and sweap his floors.Unless you go for the (TRAIL)clean up ride than thats cool .You pay less than half and still get plenty of riding in. Thats why when I go .I camp up on the hill next to his house. Bring a grill and my own food. Breakfast is the only time I eat his chow.Which if you don't get there first ,you may not get very much. Cliff is a good guy and the guides he had when I went were very good.
I never had to do dishes or was asked to clean up the living areas on a rafting trip.. Oh ya and asked to shite in a fly infested hole in the ground..lol a.k.a. out house

[radair]

...I can't disagree-the singletrack rides, man-made obstacles, and Cliff's guiding are excellent.....



Man-made obstacles are excellent? I'd agree that their lines are excellent, but their construction (on many of them, anyway) is pathetic. Some already border on dangerous - give them a year or two and look at their condition.

[Adam]

I agree with you that the natural wood nature of the many stunts could deteriorate over time. All of the stunts we rode were in fine shape, but it's never wise to ride questionably-stable stunts. I cracked a helmet doing so in 'Nam recently doing so.
The one stunt I saw at BCE that was in need of repair was the huge boulder out back-we looked at this but were strongly discouraged from riding it in it's current state. Maybe NEMBA can sponsor a proper stunt-building weekend class? There's a liability issue:)

Adam

[Dawgee]

I rode the "Rock" in september i beleive. The only thing i thought was unsafe was the flat bars on the bridge across to it. But hell i still rode it 5 times and lived.