The Future of Maine's North Woods.

[woodsguy]

http://www.yankeemagazine.com/issues/2008-03/features/quimby


By 2005, Plum Creek had proposed a plan to rezone and subdivide 400,000 acres surrounding Moosehead Lake. The plan included development of two large resorts and nearly a thousand residential lots on a portion of the land. "This is the largest, most controversial project ever proposed in the history of Maine," St. Pierre notes.



The great trees of these woods are long gone, and much of the new growth, thinner and less substantial, is not good enough for lumber. These trees are chewed up for wood chips or used in pulp mills to make paper. Much of the land Roxanne and Plum Creek have bought has been damaged by extensive logging. Plum Creek is proposing trophy homes and resorts. Roxanne wants her land to return to wilderness.

[strangeland2]

Roxanne Quimby is a dirty (insert derogatory name for woman here). If everyone could ban burt bees products that would be great. That will be all for my rant.. thanks.

[woodsguy]

Oh yea, I guess you would be against what she wants to do. But if you read the article you would have learned that she sold Burt's Bees.

[strangeland2]

Well it should be pointed out MTBs arent part of her plan for any land she owns. Basicly cross country ski, hiking, canoe/ kayaking and I think fishing. I dont even believe she planned or is allow hunting.

Snowmobiling in maine is huge and her land cut some major trails up there. There are many restraunts and gas stations that wont survive with out the support of snowmobiling tourism.

Finally if she really cared about the state of Maine as a whole she wouldnt have moved a sucessful company that employed ( i think at one time) a hundred or so employees. The woman only cares about herself and her own agenda (kind of the American way of life I guess)

If she had these plans and was keeping in mind the Maine locals who are barely getting by as it is in some cases it would be one thing. Nothing she is doing will benefit the state of Maine. Just my .02 though.

[Adam]

Well it should be pointed out MTBs arent part of her plan for any land she owns. Basicly cross country ski, hiking, canoe/ kayaking and I think fishing. I dont even believe she planned or is allow hunting.


Being a landowner in an unorganized territory near Baxter and a 20+ year Maine resident, I can appreciate most of what she's attempting here. Pulp and paper industries clear cut, slashed and eroded land on their way to profits over the past several decades, and the land shows it in that area. Driving and recreating in the North Maine Woods in the 80s was pretty depressing.

However, if it weren't for these same paper companies, I wouldn't have a dirt road to drive near my land on, and there wouldn't be any outposts for groceries or services. My parents' whitewater rafting company benefitted from land access afforded by these companies (albeit with a non-trivial per-guest access charge).

Perhaps a controlled growth plan towards sustainable recreation is the best answer. If it were my kingdom I would allow reasonable use of motorized vehicles on trails and definitely include mtn. biking. Single and multi-use zones could work, but this would ultimately involve administration/management and likely some fees.

If an idea like this works or if it doesn't, the current plan IMHO is better than another paper company or mass second-home development in the area.

-Adam

[strangeland2]

Good post Adam. I dont support clear cut logging and I can understand why people would want to ban ATVs and dirt bikes. I dont believe Maine is going to shut down if they lose money from tourism. I do believe it will seriously hurt the individual mom and pop shops running their multi purpose one stop shops. How many places can you get gas, do your laundry, rent movies, sit and have a decent meal, and in some case have a post office all in a store sometimes smaller than most peoples houses... I love those places and I believe (especially in the winter) those kind of places that are everywhere through out Maine will take huge hits if they can no longer have the trails coming in right to their door. As you obviously already know most snowmobile trails (especially in the northern and western parts of the states are already on seasonal roads, exisiting abandend railroad grades, pole lines, etc. Its very rare that the clubs are just out hacking down trees to make trails.

My point is if the trail is already there other than soil compaction snowmobiles do very little damage. Wardens are out in high traveled areas every week end cracking down on the aftermarket exhausts so noise isnt what it used to be. Some modern sleds are getting gas mileage close to most vehicles on the roads these days. Still have the problem of those smelly 2 strokes but they re working on those also.

Im all for managed forests and like the fact that the land shes bought will never be developed but I think shes taking it to an extreme that will hurt the state more than help it. Also its good to point out that the people that have been using the land as long as they ve been alive arent going to stop just cause some big wig with lots of money bought everything and posted it. With out authorized trails I think there will be alot of abuse of land and unless she puts some of that money aside for the extra wardens cause they re understaffed as it is.

[hogboy]

did you know that on the ponds out there, you can't walk barefoot in them without
getting cut with busted glass ? too many douchebags on atv's and snowmobiles have already ruined the ponds with beer bottles... over many years...

If you go there, you will find out what I mean

think about some of that motivation for keeping vehicles out.

[strangeland2]

I ve been going to various points in Maine since I was about 5. Ill admit Im only 28 and I dont go swimming often but I ve never stepped on broke glass or heard of anyone stepping on broken glass. If that were the case I think it would be more realistic to point the finger at beach goers partying.

ATVs and Snowmobiles arent hanging out on the shore. There atleast going out to their ice fishing huts or plowed sections for the ice drags. Then why drink on the shore when it can easily be -10 to -30 below at some times when they can haul it out to their heated ice shacks.

I seriously doubt you could be ignorant enough to believe that if the beachs and shores are riddled with broken glass that is strictly from OHV users. I could be wrong though.

[hogboy]

I ve been going to various points in Maine since I was about 5. Ill admit Im only 28 and I dont go swimming often but I ve never stepped on broke glass or heard of anyone stepping on broken glass. If that were the case I think it would be more realistic to point the finger at beach goers partying.

ATVs and Snowmobiles arent hanging out on the shore. There atleast going out to their ice fishing huts or plowed sections for the ice drags. Then why drink on the shore when it can easily be -10 to -30 below at some times when they can haul it out to their heated ice shacks.

I seriously doubt you could be ignorant enough to believe that if the beachs and shores are riddled with broken glass that is strictly from OHV users. I could be wrong though.

you don't spend much time at Baxter or around Katahdin then. I've been all around up there and am friends
with 2 Maine guides and that is the first warning. No wading around barefoot, ever.

[strangeland2]

I believe Baxter is already closed to ohv. There is only 1 ungroomed snowmobile trail throught the park I believe. Again to say its only OHV users out there breaking glass and bottles is still ignorant.

[Slappy]

Their second warning - people from Mass are *******s. :D

[ride in maine]

If you have never been to the North Country you need to go before you pass judgement. I have spent many a summer that went into the first of December working above the Fifth St.John Depot at Russell Pond camps. It was owned by a good friend of mine who taught me to enjoy and appreciate the North Country.

One of things that is never mentioned in any of the articles written about the North other than (those damn paper companies slashing and cutting everything )is one of the big reasons for huge clear cuts, happened in the 70's and into the early 90's was trying to control the damn spruce bud worm. This bug could and would go through a stand and make every soft wood tree out there worthless and also a considerable fire danger. Spraying did not work so they ended up putting in a road system and cutting a huge amount of the forest and then over a period of time replanting with new trees. Venture out sometime and take a ride out to Rockwood and go to the twenty milegate pay for a pass and go camping out near Seboomick Dam. Spend some time fishing and moose watching.Go over to the Roaches and catch some of those big brookies that you see on tv. But when you go into the water you do have to watch out for broken glass that has been left there by irresponsible sportmen. Remember it only takes one to ruin it for every one. Oh and don't forget to go to Kokajo with there population of 3. Baxter is nice and doing the white water from Ripogenus Dam is sometinhg that you will always remember. But go see for yourself,and then let me know what you think. oh and by the way there is some epic riding up there so don't forget your GPS.
ltr Calvin Weeks
u

[hogboy]

I believe Baxter is already closed to ohv. There is only 1 ungroomed snowmobile trail throught the park I believe. Again to say its only OHV users out there breaking glass and bottles is still ignorant.


people on foot don't haul cases of beer 10 miles deep into the woods. it is too heavy. 4x4, snowmobiles, atv's...piece of cake to haul heavy glass bottles


I was born and raised in Maine and I am agreeing with someone purchasing chunks of land to keep dipshits out and give hikers and responsible users a legacy of regrown Maine forest

[strangeland2]

people on foot don't haul cases of beer 10 miles deep into the woods. it is too heavy. 4x4, snowmobiles, atv's...piece of cake to haul heavy glass bottles


I was born and raised in Maine and I am agreeing with someone purchasing chunks of land to keep dipshits out and give hikers and responsible users a legacy of regrown Maine forest

Just cause they re hiking doesnt make them responsible. There are countless trails everywhere solely for hiking and still littered with trash or clean up parties going in and cleaning up the trash. Obviously that isnt as wide spread in the area in question cause of the massive amount of land. The majority of hikers and the like would never even see a quarter of whats there if they cant drive in to start off their hikes.

When I see a guy on a 15 year old Murray riding down the trail I dont say "theres mtber making due." I say "theres a guy going to tend his stash." As with everything else if you ban OHV the only people that will stay out are the ones using it responsibly in the first place. Everyone whos riding to party will still continue to abuse the place only you ll have no one to police them cause with out the responisible riders being in the area no one (including the majority of hikers) will get anywhere near to where they re going.

The only way to really preserve something is to keep humans out of it completely. Im pretty sure none of you are willing to do that. Otherwise as I said previously unless shes going to put aside money to hire more fish and game officers nothing will change.

[strangeland2]

This is a post I made on mtbr about MTB access that kind of sums up why i think this whole land closure thing will do more harm than good. Im going to attempt to be done with this topic as Im clearly the only one who thinks its a bad thing.


I think a problem is mtbers fighting for land access while they re trying to get other recreations banned from the same land. Hikers will always have huge support from enviromental lobbyist while mtbers kind of fall into the same problems snowmobiles, atvs, and dirt bikes fall into. Everyone is working against each other instead of pooling their resources to get space for everyone.

I believe there is enough space that everyone can get a trail system for their respective interest. If they all got together it would probably triple their lobbyists strength. Theres currently a discussion (basically me against everyone lol) about happenings in the state of maine. The mtb community seems to support land closures to OHV ( I dont believe mtbs do the same damage as OHV.) even though the land being closed will also most likely prohibit MTBs. Hikers will never approve of mtbers because everytime we come barreling down a hill and around a corner we scare the crap out of them. That pretty much leaves us in the same boat as the OHV users. So atleast if MTBers aligned with them there would be a chance against enviro lobbyists. Unforuntately if doesnt stop with mtbers wanting everyone who inconveniences us to be banned. From my experiences snowmobilers are just as against ATVs and DB as everyone else is. So at this rate hikers will be the only ones allowed to do anything. Of course they ll be able to drive in with their bus sized RVs and gas chugging suvs cause theres no way there going to hike into remote woods with out there traveling house.

People need to be a little more tolerant of what other people consider fun and recreation.

[strangeland2]

Ok almost done with this thread...

This is taken from http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/rules/allrules.html. As far as I know all the land purchased by Roxanne Quimby will eventually become part of Baxter State Park or a park with similiar regulations. Since we re discussing this on neMBA forum and not New England Hiking Association's forum is everyone willing to only ride their bikes on maintained roads?

20. MOTORCYCLES, ATV'S, BICYCLES and PARASAILING: Motorcycles, motorized trail bikes, and all-terrain vehicles are prohibited within the Park. Bicycles are allowed on maintained roads only with the exception of roads in the Scientific Forest Management Area (SFMA) where bicycles are prohibited. No person shall fly, cause to be flown, or permit any model craft, hot air balloon or hang gliding device of any kind in the Park..

[Slappy]

Personally, we've had a lot of luck with hikers and non-bikers when it comes to supporting our efforts build and ride trails in our area, particularly the folks from the Midstate trail organization and private landowners throughout town. "Passive use" yo.

Quads get no support cuz they suck ass for about a thousand easily verified reasons.

[CouchingTiger]

So, am I missing something here? Isn't this all PRIVATE LAND that we are talking about? I don't understand why people think they have some right to private land just because it's a vast chunk. Bottom line, nobody should expect access to any private land, period. Whenever you are granted access, you should feel privileged.

Oh, and yea, ATVs and 4x4s suck. I've spent loads of time and effort combating them as well, both from an MTB trail as well as from a snowmobile trail (in Maine) perspective. Also, people in general tend to be slobs and litter. The difference is quantity. Cyclists tend to drop Gu wrappers, snowmobilers/ATVers drop beer cans and 4x4ers drop beer cans/bottles, food wrappers, antifreeze/oil containers, mufflers, mirrors and various other auto-body parts they've ripped off their rigs.

-Couch

[Ryde4Ever]

people on foot don't haul cases of beer 10 miles deep into the woods. it is too heavy.




Never thru hiked the A.T. I take it? We did just that.:rad:



Of course, we picked up after ourselves. :)

[Ryde4Ever]

The insult to Roxanne is particularly disturbing to me. If this is believed to be true, than what was Percival Baxter? Was he a "dirty *****" as well?
She has been working with local snowmobile groups and has allowed them to use her land for the activity. If she truly was a "dirty whatever" she wouldn't even listen. I don't understand why people can't walk to get into a place that is beautiful. If only walking is allowed, then the place is much more serene.

Opinions of what Roxanne is doing up there do not matter now. For Percival was demonized at the time for what he did. What you complain about her doing now, will be revered by our grand children. That is, if they like places as they should be.

I have a camp on Caribou Lake that is or was in a zone for the national park. It is the third generation we have had it. I would give it up in a heartbeat if it meant my grandchildren could go up there and have the same kind of experience I have had in Baxter. Perhaps the national park isn't a good idea. Expanding Baxter certainly is. Returning large tracts of land back to wilderness is a good idea.

The woman is buying this land to give it away, not to developers, no. Not to corporations, no. She is giving it to the people of Maine. Combustion engine lovers need to wise up to the fact that it is not the best way to enjoy the wilderness and get off the oil and their asses.

And no bikes? So what! Walk. There is a beauty in it that can only be understood having done it.

[onespd]

One thing most wilderness proponents forget....Humans are part of this world, not aleins from outer space looking to destroy and move on.
When we alienate(hee, hee..he said alien-ate), one group, the others are not far behind. We ALL need to work together to ensure that the GREAT OUTDOORS are available to ALL who wish to enjoy it. If ORV is the only way some people can get into the woods, can we deny them the ways and means to do it?

By the way, buttheads and jerks exist in EVERY aspect of our society, even Mountainbikers.

[Slappy]

If Segways are the only way some people can enjoy the woods, should we go ahead and start paving the trails in your local park? Maybe blow them wide open for the local monster truck owners? They'll probably be just as good at letting others do their maintenance as the ATV guys are.

[onespd]

Maybe I missed yours.
Let's see...ALL atv users are morons and idiots ruining the woods...or ruining YOUR woods...oh, I see, thats it.

My point is...Wildernesss designation cannot mean Humans are not allowed. We are not all destroyers of the Earth. But strategic partnerships in appropriate places will work FOR us all.
Otherwise...the enviro's will disallow all human travel.Period. If you go back to the O.P.'s point, R.Quimby's original intent was to restrict ALL travel, not just motorized travel.

[btf95]

ALL atv users are morons and idiots ruining the woods.

YES. I spent 10hrs yesterday TRYING to repair ATV damage on a 300yrd section on some the funnest singletrack on Cape Ann. So yes, all atv users are morons and idiots.

What's it mean when drool is running out of both sides of an ATV users mouth?

...the trailers level.

A little off subject...I spent most of my life on dirt bikes, and I'm as old as dirt. I still race a few times a year. Something that I have always noticed is motorcycles do much less damage than quads. Yes you do have idiots on Dirt bikes, but as a whole, most users are more likely to use the machines in a less destructive manner. Most of the trails we MTBers roll on were cut from dirt bikes.Maybe because dirt bikes can't roll over everything in it's path? Not sure what my point is but it's sort of like gun control, there is a ban on assault guns. Get rid of the over-the-top bash through anything, earth raping, ATV's.

Back on subject. My family has lived in Greenville Me since the forties. I consider the town my second home. I'm not in agreement with banning respectable use. And I can understand the feelings of loss for what many people thought would last forever. But the land is/was privately owned. These people have a right to do what they wish, within the parameters of laws, with their land. People who oppose what is happening in regard to the development and conservation dropped the ball. It's the State of Maine/Feds who peeps should be pissed at. The citizens of Maine saw this coming but never moved on it by leaning on Government or purchasing the land themselves. Year after year tracks of private land have closed down to hunting,snowmoblie and atv access,as well, has fallen to development of second homes. It sucks. But the "not next to my house" mentality sucks too.

How about a Northern Main Nemba Chapter purchasing the land...tuesday night trail work after party's at my house?

[Slappy]

Maybe I missed yours.

Point is, a line obviously needs to be drawn somewhere re: what's allowed to go on on public lands (private is of course a whole different story). In most cases, specially in N.E., the change from 2 wheels to 4 is a perfect place to draw that line, for all the reasons that I'm not gonna bother typing again. (We've been through this many times here, if you're interested, just use the 'search' function.)

Spent a good few hours myself this week blocking ATV access to posted private property where they'd created another giant rutted mess through wetland. Seems to be a popular pursuit for that crowd.

[ride in maine]

How about a Northern Maine Nemba Chapter purchasing the land...tuesday night trail work after party's at my house?

First of all the possibility of putting a chapter in Northern Maine is very real as it is on my agenda. Have talked with a few folks up that way and who knows Northern Maine might be it. Buying land for trails, doubtful but having the Tuesday night trail crew showing up at your door definite. Headed there this summer to see about promoting NEMBA. So will see what happens.
ltr Calvin Weeks

[noreaster]

I've never understood why MTBers get lumped in with gas burners. I think for maximum access it makes sense that we align with hikers, and against dirtbikes and ATVs. We're quiet, human-powered recreation and exercise. We're like XC-skiing on wheels - they move quickly too and can startle a snowshoer, but they never get bothered. What we don't do is make noise (beyond the occasional clang of a chain) waste oil or pollute. Our trail damage is limited to what a good hiking boot or horse's hoof does to the trail (and we're smart enough to relieve ourselves off trail, unlike the equines).

I've never understood why we haven't gone for access on these grounds. ATVs, DBs and 4x4s need to stick to fireroads. And they need to move to electric motors (addressing the noise, pollution and oil burning) if they want to play in the woods, IMO. If not, let them build in-door tracks and have them choke on their own exhaust (instead of me those of us who choose not to waste and pollute). What about motorized recreation allows you to enjoy the serenity of nature? Hint: it just ruins it for the rest of us (example: I've seen park rangers in Yosemite with gas masks to cope with snowmobilers.) I feel the same way about motorized boats in lakes dumping oil in their exhaust, being loud, and knocking canoes and kayaks around with their wakes.

These activities impede on everyone else's enjoyment of shared, public lands, for their own enjoyment. In short, it's selfishness. You wouldn't go into a library with a boom box, right? You have to play nice with everyone else in society.

If business in the wilderness has built up around motorized rec, it's time for them to adapt, just like every other business has to when markets change. That's business.

[onespd]

And who you call Idiots. As an ATV rider AND Mountain biker, lumping all atvers together is like saying all mountainbikers smoke dope(even though we all know the MORONS who smoke dope are DHers!)

See, how that got your skirt in a bunch.

Responsible offroad use extends to all users. Dirtbikes have reeked havoc in the local park where I ride. ATV's are not allowed. We repair dirtbike damage every year. Do I think they should be banned? All of them? No...just the Moron riders that did the damage. Do we try to educate the users of the Park? Yes. Seems like the Horse-people are the only ones deaf. Do they do damage? Yes. All of them. Nope. Ban them all? Nope. Just the Morons who do the damage.

See where I'm going with this. Dhers and Freeriders cut illegal trails all over the place. Ban them all? Nope.

There are two prime motives in the human brain- Fear of loss and Hope to gain.
Each time I hear the cry to "ban-them-all" , I try to think what's motiavting the outcry. Loss or Gain.

We are all in this together. There are solutions. We just need to be open to them all.

[Slappy]

You ever seen a picture from Repack? Mountain biking was invented by dope smoking downhillers. It's all the roadie/fitness geek crossovers that are corrupting a once great sport yo!
:fat:

The difference is that it's POSSIBLE to share a trail with dirt bikes, horses, Dh'ers, dope smokers, etc and if everyone acts responsibly, the trail will remain enjoyable for all. It's a physical impossiblity for ATVs to share the same trail without degrading it to the point of un-enjoyment for other users, regardless of who's piloting it. The fact that lazy morons gravitate towards quads is a separate, but compounding issue, as is the fact that most of the users have no concept of trail work or care.

[btf95]

ATV's are good for two things...chores around the farm and destroying single track. And yes I am a farm chore atv user.

Slap, thanks for the quotes. They'll make great sigs! lol

[Jisch]

A few select parks in CT are having issues with MX traffic. Holy spinning tires batman. I'm really PO'ed about this, there is only one place where MXers can ride in CT (and these state parks are not the place). I've contacted the DEP and my congressman. The DEP pretty much says they are short man power and even if they weren't the penalties are so low that they are ineffective in preventing the use by the MXers.

I really think its going to take some kind of ground swell of angry people to get this situation changed. Doing any kind of maintenance in these parks is useless considering the destruction these guys can do.

I'm going to keep pushing on the DEP and see what we can get done. I agree with the sentiment that its non-motorized against the motorized. I recognize that MXers don't generally do the damage that ATVs do, but in the places I ride, the MXers are doing the most damage.

John

[onespd]

to be a "crack addict". I keep coming back to this thread, even though I know it's not good for me.

Slappy,
Don't take this personal, you sound like a complainer troll. Go to the local ATV club and try to educate them. Ask for help rebuilding trails. It does work. Most recreational ATVers are normal guys and gals like you and me. I know through the smoke filled haze, it's hard to see clearly, but please...dude...try.

It sounds like we all have issues with Morons. Whether, they ride two or four wheels. Motored or not. A**holes will always be A**holes. Damage will be done to "our" trails each and every year. AND each and every year, a small dedicated group will return to do Trailwork/repair. Hats off to those who step up and participate.
Each and every year, members of our own group will damage trails, cut illegal trails,build unauthorized stunts, ruin our place in the woods by offending someone.

Educating the masses takes time.And Effort.

This thread took off on it's own. I'm not coming back. Clean break. Cold turkey.....
See you tomorrow.

[Slappy]

Don't take it personally, but you sound like your typical patronizing idealist. And your grammar could use a little work too, long as we're going off-topic with the self-help tips. :rolleyes:

You're more than welcome to spend your spare time and effort trying to educate the uninterested or trying to cajole them into repairing trails they weren't supposed to be riding in the first place. Feel free to hunt down an ATV group in central MA that will listen to you and see if you have any success getting them to spend their time and money to block quad access and repair what they've torn up on the north side of Leominster SF and on the rest of the watershed land out there. I see that happen, I'll change my tune.

So anyway, thanks for trying to dictate how I spend my time, but I think I'll stick with building and riding singletrack. We seem to be having a lot of luck with that; wouldn't be if we were approaching land managers saying we were allied with motorized users though, that's for damn sure. I'll leave it to ya'll superior folk to figure out the rest.

[onespd]

era ouy na hsilgne rehcaet? Another bit of insight from the people who bring us restricted areas to ride.
Thanks for doing your part. Spending time in the woods on YOUR trails helps others who ride. Good for you. I'll ride MY trails. I'll volunteer in my area.

Idealist. Hmmm...never been called that. That's a good one. Thanks.

[btf95]

Go to the local ATV club and try to educate them.

Great, now I feel like a crack addict...

We've expanded on this program we started awhile aback. It's been posted all over ATV and moto sites, mailed out to ATV organizations, brought by local Moto shops, etc. I've never, ever, received a response. Not one, nadda, zip.

http://www.sinisterbikes.com/sbforum/showthread.php?t=340&highlight=program


and yes quads/atv do not belong in the woods. Just there stature alone creates ugly landscape. Hey, I've got a D-5 cat dozer and a 325 excavator, would you be ok with me trying to squeeze down a few miles of forest? They'd make killer ATV's. Damn I bet they'd go anywhere.

I hate to use my gun control example again but it makes the point. I'm sure 90% of Assault Gun users were more than qualified and respectable/lawful users. Still they became a problem and government/citizens banned what was dangerous and destructive firearms. Even the NRA agreed and in ma they worked to help define the new gun laws.

ATV's/quads should be regulated to private property and race tracks. They are just to damaging for what is acceptable to the "new world" breed of trail users. The moto community needs to adjust to changing standards like the rest of the world has.

[Slappy]

Hey, I remember that. Wasn't that back when we signed up to all the regional ATV boards we could find and tried to start a dialogue on working together on trails, not to mention offering to help make it a bit cheaper for people that had been shut out of most trail systems by the powers that be to maybe try out a different way to get out and enjoy the woods?

Once I do my morning bong rips, maybe I'll share a few other stories on the subject. Long as I don't forget in the meantime of course.

Frigging know it alls crack me up.
:rolleyes:

[Jisch]

I engaged the local MX organization to try and get some help on curbing MX use at the local forest. I didn't get much back other than "its not our guys". The rogue riders who do this stuff likely have a renegade attitude and would laugh out loud at our meager attempts to get them to see the light.

I just don't see a solution, I'm resigned to seeing the damage every time I ride and living with it.

John

[hogboy]

:D

[Slappy]

era ouy na hsilgne rehcaet? Another bit of insight from the people who bring us restricted areas to ride.
Thanks for doing your part. Spending time in the woods on YOUR trails helps others who ride. Good for you. I'll ride MY trails. I'll volunteer in my area.

Idealist. Hmmm...never been called that. That's a good one. Thanks.

Don't forget 'patronizing' - it's intrinsic in this case.

Nice that you only care about your own backyard. What happened to all that talk about putting in time and effort a few posts back? You seemed pretty generous when it came to other's time and effort.

[btf95]

Hey, I remember that.

Yeh, remember this one too... http://www.nemba.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16854

ATV guy..."I had to hit him, I've got no brakes..."

[Slappy]

Yeah, and when your wife got hit too. That was cute.

Personally, I've found that the first question land managers or private landowners usually ask when we contact them and introduce ourselves as bikers looking to build and maintain trails: "You mean for pedal-bikes right? Not dirt bikes and quads?" Soon we make it clear that we have no interest in building or riding blown out rutted highways, it's been smooth sailing all the way, from the Open Space, Recreation and Conservation committees all the way to the local hiking groups such as the Midstate Trail organization and AMC members. It's been very clear that none would have supported us if we were looking for motorized access. And since none of that crowd appears to have made the slightest effort to help themselves locally, I don't see why we should go through a bunch of extra hassle just to shoot ourselves in the foot for them.

[onespd]

atv's and their riders are all morons, rapists (trails) and down right bad (oh, ya...they stink too). from now on any one who rides one or is known to be near one is one and the same!

Add to the mix anyone who closes off any trail that Mountain bikers may use.

And anyone who buys thousands of acres and decides who can/cannot travel there. (Private property?)

When I started in this thread, I thought it was moving in different direction . I assumed (ass+u+me) it was moving into a discussion about the potential of losing future land use due to large tract land sales. A very real threat that all of us will face in the future. The direction changed to atv bashing/a**hole bashing. Some of which is my fault. It's over for me now. If anyone wants to continue discussing the future of large tracts. I'll join in. If you all want to bash atvs, I'm out. Taking my toys and going into my own sandbox.
Sorry Slap if I offended you (hee,hee..he said IF!).

I do my share of trail work. And I throw in some education of other trail users. I'll continue to do so, even when the morons rut it up, post-hole it, add trail features without permission.

Know it all. I don't think so (ask those who really know me). Idealistic, yep. Patronizing, doubt it. Ultra-right wing, gun totin' singlespeeder, yep.

Oh,ya..punchuation and spellin', ritin' and typin' like a Hillbilly, that's Me.

[btf95]

Dude go back and re-read. I wrote about loosing land to development. IT SUCKS. But instead of bitch'n about what someone has the right to do with their own land...buy it. Do you live or work on land that was open space at one time? I bet you do. Don't hang someone for developing their land within the law. It's their as well as your American right.

[Slappy]

http://twi-ny.com/akatommychong.jpg

uhhh....what were we talking about again?

[onespd]

talking about how great it is to be riding on dirt again. Trails are drying up (even after the rains), Btoh LBS's are scheduling mtn rides, and trail work sessions are being planned.

Great time to be in the woods.

[btf95]

talking about how great it is to be riding on dirt again. Trails are drying up (even after the rains), Btoh LBS's are scheduling mtn rides, and trail work sessions are being planned.

Great time to be in the woods.

HELL YA! Trails are great up here on the NShore. Beer on me Friday.

[bullitfreerider]

talking about how great it is to be riding on dirt again. Trails are drying up (even after the rains), Btoh LBS's are scheduling mtn rides, and trail work sessions are being planned.

Great time to be in the woods.

Yes, great to be back out in the woods. To all those dirt bikers who cut the trails in the greater NAM woods decades ago, thanks! With out the use by early dirt bikers, I wonder if "NAM" would ever have evolved into the wildy popular MTB venue it has become. We can never be sure if it would have just been another tract of woods in Milford. I surmise that all the trails we've ridden since the motorized boys have disappeared have led us to the activity of NEMBA and the land secured by them. Does anyone ever remember seeing the sign along the woods/power lines in the very early nineties that delineated "North/South Vietnam".......cool history of user activity.

[woodsguy]

I think there should be areas that don't allow biking. As a hiker/backpacker I appreciate areas that only allow hiking. I wouldn't feel the sense of isolation and accomplishment of a grueling 10 mile hike or a multi day backpacking trip if some bikes wiz by on an afterwork ride. Plus, with a bit of education I’m sure most land managers would allow biking. As long as we can distance ourselves from the motorized crowd. So I'm all for kick out the motorized crowd now and gain access for bikes later.

[woodsguy]

Yes, great to be back out in the woods. To all those dirt bikers who cut the trails in the greater NAM woods decades ago, thanks! With out the use by early dirt bikers, I wonder if "NAM" would ever have evolved into the wildy popular MTB venue it has become. We can never be sure if it would have just been another tract of woods in Milford. I surmise that all the trails we've ridden since the motorized boys have disappeared have led us to the activity of NEMBA and the land secured by them. Does anyone ever remember seeing the sign along the woods/power lines in the very early nineties that delineated "North/South Vietnam".......cool history of user activity.

Sure, but for the most part mx trails aren't that great for biking. Woopdeedoos, fall line trails, ruts in the turns, etc (for the most part Nam is the exception). Just because they were first doesn't automatically earn my respect. If they didn't put in the trails who's to say a mountain biker wouldn't have come along and made better biking trails? And it wasn't like it was a bunch of mxers that rode there. I'm sure it was only a few riders. If it was a popular spot for mxers the trails wouldn't have been desirable for bikes.

[Slappy]

I first rode Nam about 15 years ago - the 'original' MX trails were awesome. Personally, I enjoyed them at least as much if not more than how it is now. Most of the trails in Leominster were also cut on MXers, as they were in many many other places. Those guys got a bum deal in a lot of places, but it was in large part caused by others in the 'group' acting irresponsibly, as well as being lumped in with the 4 wheelers.

There's no shortage of hiking trails out there that don't allow bikes. The criteria should be safety and sustainability though, not an effort to make a trail feel more isolated than it actually is. You can't expect a wilderness experience in the suburbs.

[bullitfreerider]

If they didn't put in the trails who's to say a mountain biker wouldn't have come along and made better biking trails? And it wasn't like it was a bunch of mxers that rode there. I'm sure it was only a few riders. If it was a popular spot for mxers the trails wouldn't have been desirable for bikes.

Lots of assumptions with nothing behind it. My post on NAM stands. Kudos to the dirt bikers who started the trial system at greater Nam. They've disappeared but the efforts at their sport have inspired the spandex and freeride crowd to make it what it has become. In the nearly 20 years I've ridden Nam trails, most of the trails are still intact and a fun challenge, and the early boys didn't have trail building schools or skills.