The Immigration Conflagration Is Not Yet Extinguished

[kernel crash]

The guy makes some great points here. But I fear common sense is not that common anymore. At least not in Washington. Strap yourself in. This is going to be a bumpy ride.

"The Proposed (Immigration) Bill Is Based on a Fantasy and Could Never Be Effectively Implemented: It is outrageous when the federal government is so incompetent it has to suspend passport requirements for Mexico and Canada while at the same time suggesting it will be able to process a "Z" visa for 12 million-plus illegal immigrants in one day. Tell your senator that only a Washington power structure totally out of touch with reality could propose that."

"Why Should Any American Believe That This Government Will Keep Its Word and Do Better This Time? We now hear from the President that we have failed to control the border and failed to enforce the law on employers, and therefore, we need a new law to replace the law we have been failing to enforce. But we have been here before. The Simpson-Mazzoli immigration law passed 20 years ago promised the same things."

"Under the proposed law, will local, state and federal officials really try to distinguish between those who came to the U.S. illegally prior to Jan. 1, 2007 (eligible under the proposed law for amnesty), and those who have arrived here illegally -- or those who overstay their visas -- after Jan. 1, 2007 (not eligible for the proposed amnesty)? The case of the 75 prior interactions with police of the Fort Dix terrorists demonstrates that we currently are incapable of identifying people here illegally, even if their names are in the judicial system. If 12 to 20 million are amnestied, who is seriously going to try and distinguish between the old illegal and the new illegal?"

Newt Gingrich

[S2RT]

It is long past high time for a national ID. Got one, u stay...no, u go. EOFS!

[Slappy]

Any sort of national ID would be the end of civilization and freedom as we know it. Ask Slider.

[Slider]

Make 'em all citizens and reap the benefits.

Slider

[kernel crash]

Make 'em all citizens and reap the benefits.

Slider

What benefits? The only ones who will be reaping the benefits are the 12 to 20 million "illegals" who will now have an unimpeded path to what's left of our National Treasury. Follow that up with the next wave as the message goes out to the third world that the US is unable or unwilling to control its borders.

[Slider]

They don't drain the economy, they build it.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

The only thing they "build" are the Democrat voter rolls and the employment base for corporations that depend on slave labor. Actually, the latter becomes less true, as then these factory owners and "under the table" construction companies now have legal citizens who can legally demand minimum wage, insurance, etc. And that's not even getting into the great sucking sound that you will hear which will be the sudden drain on taxpayer funded social programs by a sudden spike in eligible recipients.

The main reason Democrats and border state Republicans like Bush and McCain like this bill is for the potential increase in supporting voters.

[off piste]

Maybe, hopefully, we'll see more of the immigration issue being dealt with as a local issue, by local governments, seeing as the Republican/Democratic Federal Government is pretty much impotent:

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070613/NEWS/706130735/1116

Marlboro immigrants upset over customs proposal

City money would pay for ICE office

By Elaine Thompson TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF
ethompson@telegram.com




MARLBORO— Members of the immigrant community were upset yesterday after learning the City Council wants to offer office space for a federal customs agent to help deport illegal immigrants living in the city.

In a 10-1 vote, the council Monday night directed Mayor Nancy E. Stevens to find out the legality and feasibility of using city money to pay for the cost of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement opening an office in Marlboro. The only ICE field office in the state is in Boston. Mrs. Stevens has 90 days to report her findings to the council.

Mrs. Stevens yesterday declined to give her opinion of the proposal. http://adx.telegram.com/apps/adx.dll/img/WT001/largeunitad01/NEWS/40013405692715419/1013/-/;IDN=806855050;Type=3;SL=NEWS (http://www.nemba.org/forums/)

“I’ve been ordered by the council to research this. I will do just that and report back to them,” the mayor said.

Paula Grenier, public affairs officer for the ICE office in Boston, said she cannot speculate how officials would respond to Marlboro’s proposal.

“We work and will continue to work closely with our law enforcement partners. If they have a specific concern, we will work with them to address it,” Ms. Grenier said.

Council President Arthur Vigeant and Ward 2 Councilor Paul R. Ferro sponsored the proposal. They said the presumably thousands of illegal immigrants in Marlboro are a burden on the city, including its school system, court system, police, health facilities and housing.

They have also said that illegal immigrants ignore or are ignorant of laws that prohibit overcrowded housing and blighted properties.

Mr. Ferro estimated there are 4,000 to 10,000 immigrants in Marlboro; he suspects between one-fourth and one-third of them are here illegally. More than 30 languages are spoken by students in the school system.

He said he receives calls from constituents who complain about issues related to illegal immigration.

Because local police have limited authority to deal with immigration issues, he said, the city would benefit from helping an immigration agent have an office here. Immigrants here legally could also benefit by having a local place to go with questions about their immigration status, Mr. Ferro said.

“Marlboro has been welcoming to waves of immigrants and that’s going to continue. All we’re asking is that they follow the laws of the United States and our community,” Mr. Ferro said. “There are a lot of people who go through a lengthy legal process to become citizens. There should be a level playing field for everyone.”

Josimar Salum, a Brazilian native and pastor who lives in Worcester, said Brazilians from Marlboro and Framingham contacted him yesterday after hearing about the proposal. He said most immigrants are hard workers who came here because of dangerous and hopeless living conditions in their native countries. Immigrants who are working to help make the country better and are not committing crimes should be given amnesty, he said.

“If Americans can go far away to Iraq and liberate people there, why not liberate people from all over living right here in this land? This would be huge,” said Mr. Salum, who is pastor of Great Revival Ministries in Worcester, which establishes Brazilian churches throughout the state. If illegal immigrants’ status is legalized, they will be able to do such things as pay their taxes and get their driver’s licenses without fear, he said.

With so many non-citizens living in Marlboro, the council a couple of years ago began trying to get a handle on issues surrounding them. In 2005, Pam Wilderman was hired as assistant building inspector to enforce a new ordinance on property blight as well as building codes and other related laws. Ms. Wilderman said one of the biggest problems she has encountered is overcrowding, a violation of local and state codes. She said many immigrants come from countries that have no or minimal building codes and no requirement for building permits.

Ms. Wilderman said several single-family homes have been turned into rooming houses. In one case, she found four families living in a small, three-bedroom apartment. There were four refrigerators in the kitchen and each bedroom and the living room were being used as separate apartments. In a small ranch-type house, she found 12 people sleeping on mattresses in the basement.

Two measures were taken last year. The council adopted an ordinance to curtail illegal apartments. The ordinance requires owners of three- to 20-unit dwellings to provide buyers with certification from the city of the legal number of units.

Mr. Vigeant, the council president, also proposed an ordinance that would require a valid Social Security number or taxpayer identification number from anyone seeking licenses or permits, including certificates to operate local businesses. The proposal has been bogged down in the legal department as research is being done on about 130 different licenses or permits offered by the city.

Assistant City Solicitor Cynthia Panagore Griffin said there are some issues with the proposal “partly because it is untested waters … totally new ground.” She said the federal government also prohibits the use of an individual taxpayer number other than to pay federal taxes.

“Marlboro has a tax base of 40,000 residents. We can not support 45,000 or 50,000 residents,” Mr. Vigeant said. “It’s not fair to the older residents who have been here all their life to pay additional tax to subsidize them.”

[Slappy]

They don't drain the economy, they build it.

Slider


Ture - think of all the absentee slumlords that could make a killing on Section 8 vouchers.

[Mr_Cheeze]

But doesn't Mr. Wildeman know the immigrants are building Marlboro's economy amongst other benefits from which the town reaps?

[kernel crash]

“It’s not fair to the older residents who have been here all their life to pay additional tax to subsidize them.”

I know there are some jobs out there that many Americans do not want to take. (That's why we have programs in place to allow guest workers to come in and help with those jobs.) But you can't tell me that illegals are not taking jobs from legal Americans while driving down wages on those same Americans. Where are the benefits???

[geezer]

They don't drain the economy, they build it.

Slider

Why don't they stay in their countries of origin and build up their countries???????????????????????

[S2RT]

Hmmmmm, let's do the math on a previous post:

[(illegal wages)x(taxes paid)] - (govt services demanded)=economic growth

[(?millions?) x ($0.00)] - ($?00,000,000's) = economic growth

[$0.00] - ($?00,000,000's) = economic growth ???

And in plain American for all the non-Economic majors in the house......

zero (dollars) minus hundreds of millions (dollars) doesnotequal economic growth

Brrrrilliant!

[Slappy]

Hey - let's not bring math into this. We all know that facts and statistics are strictly implements of racism.

[Slappy]

Why don't they stay in their countries of origin and build up their countries???????????????????????

Good idea. Maybe there should even be an illegal immigrant exchange program where unemployed Americans go to those countries and take all the high paying jobs that the native citizens can't seem handle, tax free of course. Lord knows there are plenty of world-class powerpoint jockeys around looking for CEO positions.

[S2RT]

Whoa!!! How can that be??? Equations & 5h!t have been around since Homer, Gallileo, Copernicus... I remember the warning on the side of the box. It said:
"Use solely to represent hole blowing facts in any opposing argument, however obtuse or incongruous."

Wait...Wha?!?

[Slider]

You guys must be reading Lou Dobbs. He never lets a fact interfere with a good rant.

Think about it. If you come here, you do so to work. They aren't unemployed. They pay into Social Security and state and local taxes, and they don't take it out, ever. They are arrested less than citizens, as a group.

They do jobs that we won't do. Without them, our cost of living goes up, waaaay up.

Now add in the cost to find them and make them leave. We are talking hundreds of billions of dollars. For what?

In general, we are talking about industrious, motivated workers, looking for a chance to improve their lives. Give me motivation over complacency any day.

You KNOW where I think the resistance lies, and it isn't based on reason.

Slider

[FriedRys]

Slider is right, look at what a great benefit illegal immigration has been to Lawrence and Springfield.

[off piste]

I say if George Bush is behind immigration reform, its got to be a good thing. Nice to see Slider and the Cheif agreeing on something.

[Mr_Cheeze]

You guys must be reading Lou Dobbs. He never lets a fact interfere with a good rant.

Think about it. If you come here, you do so to work. They aren't unemployed. They pay into Social Security and state and local taxes, and they don't take it out, ever. They are arrested less than citizens, as a group.

They do jobs that we won't do. Without them, our cost of living goes up, waaaay up.

Now add in the cost to find them and make them leave. We are talking hundreds of billions of dollars. For what?

In general, we are talking about industrious, motivated workers, looking for a chance to improve their lives. Give me motivation over complacency any day.

You KNOW where I think the resistance lies, and it isn't based on reason.

Slider

Yea, yea, we know your b.s. schpeel on racism. Too bad it's mostly way off base. Just like that tired, b.s argument that they take jobs Americans don't want. You know that's not true, even if you get your jollies typing it. They get slave wage jobs that greedy and corrupt corporation owners choose to only offer to those who are desperate so that they can line their pockets and drive nice cars. Do you think all of those jobs remain available at the newly raised minimum wage, not to mention the newly installed health insurance laws in a state like MA that require coverage. Hardly.

You logic is hardly based on reason. But then again, liberal argument rarely are.

[kernel crash]

Slider
"You guys must be reading Lou Dobbs. He never lets a fact interfere with a good rant."

Lou Dobbs would make a better president than any of those slobs running on either the Republican and Democratic side. And before you accuse him of racism, remember, he's married to a Mexican woman.

"Think about it. If you come here, you do so to work. They aren't unemployed. They pay into Social Security and state and local taxes, and they don't take it out, ever. They are arrested less than citizens, as a group."

Oh really. How do you know that? You don't know how many are here. You don't know where they are. You don't know how many have criminal records. You don't know Sh!t.

"They do jobs that we won't do. Without them, our cost of living goes up, waaaay up."

That's a bunch of crap. We have visa programs to allow guest workers to come in and do "the work Americans won't do". Then their suppose to go home. Meanwhile they keep wages low for the rest of real American wage earners.

"Now add in the cost to find them and make them leave. We are talking hundreds of billions of dollars. For what?"

Just clamp down on the employers that are hiring them illegaly. As we flush them out of the shadows, we flush them out of the system.

"In general, we are talking about industrious, motivated workers, looking for a chance to improve their lives. Give me motivation over complacency any day."

I think your too quick to sell the American workers short.

"You KNOW where I think the resistance lies, and it isn't based on reason."

No its based on the rule of law. Were talking about doing things the right way, the way my parents did when they came to this country, versus a complete breakdown of our borders and gaining some semblance of control over our destiny.

[S2RT]

Conversely, he builds up illegals calling them "industrious motivated workers".
Industrious, motivated workers aren't the type of people to sneak into a place they wouldn't be allowed to stay if caught. Industrious motivated people come to this country every day legally.

[kernel crash]

Speaking of Lou Dobbs

Lou's Top 5 List
Top 5 Dumbest Things in the Immigration Bill

5) Taxpayers will pay for the immigration lawyers for illegal aliens if working in agriculture.

4) Illegal aliens would be given legal status just one day after their application is filed even if a background check is not completed.

3) Gang members are eligible for amnesty if they renounce their gang status.

2) Borders do not have to be secure before the amnesty program begins.

1) $2,600,000,000,000 -- That is the cost the Heritage Foundation estimates to cover the retirement benefits of 12,000,000 illegal aliens if this amnesty bill becomes law.

[Slappy]

You KNOW where I think the resistance lies, and it isn't based on reason.

Slider

So how's it feel to be 100% wrong?

[Slider]

So how's it feel to be 100% wrong?

I wouldn't know.

Slider

Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR)
http://www.fair.org


Action Alert

Dobbs' Dubious Disease Numbers
CNN host stands by faulty leprosy statistics

5/11/07

During a May 6 60 Minutes profile, CBS reporter Lesley Stahl asked CNN anchor Lou Dobbs about a statistic cited on his program regarding immigrants and leprosy. While Dobbs assured Stahl that his show had the facts right, he was wrong.

Stahl cited an April 14, 2005 report that alleged that 7,000 new cases of leprosy, or Hansen's Disease, have been discovered in the past three years—presumably due to increased immigration.

Dobbs' response was remarkable:


STAHL: We checked that and found a report issued by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, saying: "Seven thousand is the number of leprosy cases over the last 30 years," not the past three, and nobody knows how many of those cases involved illegal immigrants. Now we went to try and check that number, 7,000. We can't. Just so you know....

DOBBS: Well, I can tell you this. If we reported it, it's a fact.

STAHL: You can't tell me that. You did report it.

DOBBS: Well, no, I just did.

STAHL: How can you guarantee that to me?

DOBBS: Because I'm the managing editor, and that's the way we do business. We don't make up numbers, Lesley. Do we?


While Dobbs' defense—it's true because I said it—might be convincing to him, it's an odd position for a journalist to take. (FAIR, for the record, noted that Dobbs misrepresented a study of the costs and benefits of immigration, turning the study's finding of a small economic benefit into a multi-billion dollar cost to the nation's economy—Extra!, 2/04.) In any event, Stahl's numbers are in line with the leprosy statistics compiled by the National Hansen's Disease Program, part of the Department of Health and Human Services.

Instead of acknowledging the error, Dobbs went on the attack on his May 7 show, arguing that CNN had quoted a "medical lawyer" who made the 7,000 new cases claim. But rather than provide evidence that this expert's opinion was right, and the government's record-keeping horribly off-base, Dobbs simply returned to unsubstantiated assertions:

"It's remarkable that this—whatever confusion, or confoundment, over 7,000 cases, they actually keep a registry of cases of leprosy. And the fact that it rose was because—one assumes—because we don't know for sure—but two basic influences—unscreened illegal immigrants coming into this country primarily from South Asia, and secondly, far better reporting."

A Centers for Disease Control report notes (3/30/07), "The number of reported cases of Hansen disease (HD) in the United States peaked at 361 in 1985 and has declined since 1988." The Health Resources and Services Administration reports that "166 new cases were reported in the U.S. in 2005 (the most recent year for which data are available)." So Dobbs can offer no evidence that there are thousands of new leprosy cases in the last few years, nor can he point to a rise in such cases; instead, he claims that "you know, in talking with a number of people, it's also very clear, no one knows but nearly everyone suspects there are far more cases of that."

Dobbs' correspondent, Christine Romans, attributed the statistic to "Dr. Madeline Cosman, a respected medical lawyer and medical historian writing in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons." The Southern Poverty Law Center (5/9/07) pointed out that Cosman's PhD was in English and comparative literature, and described the journal that published her work in its Spring 2005 issue as "a right-wing periodical whose science has been the subject of harsh criticism." SPLC quotes Cosman speaking at a 2005 anti-immigrant conference as saying that "most" Latino immigrant men "molest girls under 12, although some specialize in boys, and some in nuns."

Obviously, the fact that Dobbs points to such a source does not vindicate his journalism; it casts it into further doubt. Dobbs' troubling contention that if his show said it, it must be true seems to be preventing him from looking critically at the sources of his information.

[MTBME]

Priceless