Soapbox Time

[hammerhead]

Hi All,

As the candidate for the new President of NEMBA, I feel I have the responsibility to have my say.

On the front page of this forum are some business card templates that were created as an easy quick handout to encourage all your fellow riders to join our ranks as NEMBA members. Now that the weather is co-operating many of us will be out riding and crossing paths with potential new members. Part of the advocacy that is the life blood of NEMBA is recruiting new riders into our ranks. Everyone should carry some of these cards or a few brochures to steer new riders our way. Please take the time to print off a bunch and toss them into your camelback. You never know when the topic might come up and you have the opportunity to nab a new recruit.

On a similar note, yesterday all the Board Members got an e-mail from PK listing the members who haven't kept their dues current. The list is HUGE!

Come on folks, if you are on that list (check your most recent Single Tracks for the expiration date), do yourself a favor right now and click on the little bit of white type in the upper left of this window that says 'Join Today!'. or I'll even make it easier click on http://www.nemba.org/shopzone/page4.html. You are all riding on NEMBA built trails, reading a NEMBA supported forum and generally passing yourselves off as access advocates why not make sure you feel good about it!

Help us all get rid of these unpaid accounts.

Thanks,

Harold Green

[BigMac]

Atta-boy H.

[Slappy]

Guilty...:o

Now fixed; thanks for the reminder!

:D

[Superb Man]

Yeah-that list got me too Harold-I was thinking of splitting it up and making a bunch of phone callls and emails (wouldn't george be proud)--In fact I might do it anyway--we should talk harold.

Great ride at batchelor st this morning btw!

Liam

[GW]

Go to it boys. I'll be out of the woods for a while. I did a poor job of riding and went down hard at Batchelor Street. I'll be on the road for the time being.
GW

[hammerhead]

GW,

Get well soon. Isn't that too many crashes at the Batch for one guy? Odds are now you can ride there the rest of your life and never hit hard again!

H.

[hammerhead]

To get back on topic.

Any idea from you folks out there how we can increase our rate of renewal for members. We get lots of people who join for the discount entry to an MBAS Ride who we never hear from again. I am sure they are still enjoying riding. Are phone appeals the only tool that will work?

H.

[bikapelli]

How about a renewal list on the forum. Sometimes you just forget and say "oh yeah I gotto do that soon" but if you or a friend see it on the forum it could help us and you out.
My last trail care day only one other NEMBA rider showed the other riders were not members. I think you could increase memberships and renewals by allowing the trail day reps to take dues and applications on their trail days. We could sign someone up, give them a temp membership card as a reciept and maybe an issue of singletracks.

[splat]

To get back on topic.

Any idea from you folks out there how we can increase our rate of renewal for members. We get lots of people who join for the discount entry to an MBAS Ride who we never hear from again. I am sure they are still enjoying riding. Are phone appeals the only tool that will work?

H.

I can say that I always seam to lag a Month or 2 before I finally Get around to renewing. Now I have been active with Both Nemba and The CRW (Charles River Wheelmen) for longer than NEMBA has existed, And when I renew with the CRW I renew for 3 years. ( and that usually lags a Bit too ) give a Multi year Option!


We went through if you are afraid of Messing up the revenue stream , because thinking every one will take the 3 Year ( or longer ) right aways , stagger it over a couple of years , start with a 1 and 2 for a year or 2 then then add the 3 or more options.


ANd in the long run you will find the membership will increase, due to you will have less who have expired but have not renewed, also the member who signs up all gung ho , only to dissappear as quickly as they arrived will have signed on for longer term , in which case you have him as a member and they have already paid the dues for an extra year or 2.


and if you really want to get drastict. the League of America Bicyclist has a lifetime membership.

[Slappy]

Are phone appeals the only tool that will work?

H.

Oh, please no!!!! Phone solicitation pisses people off (at least it does me.)

[hammerhead]

Oh, please no!!!! Phone solicitation pisses people off (at least it does me.)

I totally agree, but e-mails get ignored. Personal contact is absolutely the best mechanism, but there are only so many officers and directors to put the arm on those with unpaid dues.

H.

[Slappy]

Personally, my wallet snaps shut if I feel too much 'arm put on me'. Maybe that's just me, but I think it could be a turn-off to others also.

[S2RT]

Can't take credit for this one but thought it a great idea. Introductory membership price (new members only) of say $10, or $15 for the first year.

Like the trail day signups, how about first six months free to those non-members signing up at a trail maint. day (first year @ half price).

It's all about the "Introductory Offer". to get new members into the database. Keep awareness up with periodic emails, not only for membership renewal, but also for NEMBA events and goings on.

[MTBME]

No it's not just you. I guess I pretty much feel the same way. When somebody pushes too hard in one direction, my instincts is too lean the other way. A good product should sell itself. If I get a phone call and don't recognize the caller, I don't pick up. I think time would be better spent trying to figure out why members dont renew.

[Husqvarna]

As a trail crew leader, I put a higher value on having someone show up to volunteer there time energy into trail improvements, then having them as members.
-Group 1 (The active member) will give you both there time and money.
-Group 2 (The inactive member) will only give you there money, and you'll never see or know them.
-Group 3 (The active non-member) are those who willingly give you there time and energy, but think its silly to give you there cash after they've given you 4 hours of hard labor.

I understand that some cash is needed to administer the organazation, but I put a higher value on Group 3, than i do on Group 2. We can easily get funding for projects through RTP grants, but we have to match that with volunteer labor hours. Something that we have very little of. So were currently funding our projects through events.
So i would be all for giving away new memberships to active volunteers, giving the active member a break, and letting the inactive member pay the way for administration, with a higher fee.

[Husqvarna]

As a trail crew leader, I put a higher value on having someone show up to volunteer there time energy into trail improvements, then having them as members.
-Group 1 (The active member) will give you both there time and money.
-Group 2 (The inactive member) will only give you there money, and you'll never see or know them.
-Group 3 (The active non-member) are those who willingly give you there time and energy, but think its silly to give you there cash after they've given you 4 hours of hard labor.

I understand that some cash is needed to administer the organazation, but I put a higher value on Group 3, than i do on Group 2. We can easily get funding for projects through RTP grants, but we have to match that with volunteer labor hours. Something that we have very little of. So were currently funding our projects through events.
So i would be all for giving away new memberships to active volunteers, giving the active member a break, and letting the inactive member pay the way for administration, with a higher fee.

[Husqvarna]

Thats weird, not sure why that got posted twice.
Just wanted add:
"Sometimes you have to taste the value of something before you can justify the cost."
So giving a free membership to a new volunteer, would give them a sample of the benefits of membership.

[heckler]

Playing the devil's advocate here. The last post mentioned the benefits of belonging to NEMBA. What, besides feeling good about having put some money in good hands for a good cause, and SingleTracks, ARE the benefits of belonging?

I have been a NEMBAn for- well, for a really really long time. I have attended literally dozens of trail days at many parks. I pay my dues (sometimes late, I will admit) and dont expect anything back. Other people- new members in particular join and get...what?

I suspect that some people pay simply to justify their rights to ride in the woods. Sort of like planting a tree to offset the CO2 you spew while driving. Is that bad? I don't know.

[hammerhead]

One thing we all gain by each and every member is the clout of an increased and active membership. These stats are asked for on virtually every grant application and indicate the strength of the organization. Sort of an indirect benefit, yet very real.

Why am I a member? I agree with the main goal of the organization - increasing access to mt bikers of all the single track throughout New England.

H.

[splat]

You never answeared my Suggestion about multi year membership. and you just said how membership numbers are important at grant time, multi year will increase the Numbers there !

[C.P.]

General Memberships
http://www.nemba.org/forums/../shopzone/media/cleardot.gif

Individual $25 (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../cgi-sys/cgiwrap/nemba/sc/order.cgi?storeid=*20a9064e52018e45c3ed02547b8c9fd cacef&dbname=products&itemnum=1&function=add)
Family $35 (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../cgi-sys/cgiwrap/nemba/sc/order.cgi?storeid=*20a9064e52018e45c3ed02547b8c9fd cacef&dbname=products&itemnum=2&function=add)
Youth $20 (<18) (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../cgi-sys/cgiwrap/nemba/sc/order.cgi?storeid=*20d8b94e550031447aed0254728c96c cac8f&dbname=products&itemnum=24&function=add)
Supporting $50 (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../cgi-sys/cgiwrap/nemba/sc/order.cgi?storeid=*1cbe56e490128e5fc0ac479a84cc5df 6&dbname=products&itemnum=4&function=add)
Sponsoring $100 (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../cgi-sys/cgiwrap/nemba/sc/order.cgi?storeid=*1cbe56e490128e5fc0ac479a84cc5df 6&dbname=products&itemnum=6&function=add)
Benefactor $250 (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../cgi-sys/cgiwrap/nemba/sc/order.cgi?storeid=*1cbe56e490128e5fc0ac479a84cc5df 6&dbname=products&itemnum=7&function=add)
Trail Builder $500 (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../cgi-sys/cgiwrap/nemba/sc/order.cgi?storeid=*1cbe56e490128e5fc0ac479a84cc5df 6&dbname=products&itemnum=8&function=add)
Master Trail Builder $1000 (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../cgi-sys/cgiwrap/nemba/sc/order.cgi?storeid=*1cbe56e490128e5fc0ac479a84cc5df 6&dbname=products&itemnum=9&function=add)I agree with Splat. Here are the choices right now. I dont know if tax reasons would be an issue, but It seems to me that somewhere in this pile of choices there's possibly a way to offer multi year flavors for each category...I seem to have a habit of renewing late or after expiration, so multi year thing would help me too...

little brainstorming...

- maybe if there was a way to have memberships default to an "auto" renewal, & figure out billing/payment method...

- what about sending one issue of singletracks after the past due date, along with a letter saying something like, "Did you forget us?" and indicating we sent an issue complimentary, and would appreciate support in the form of a renewal etc etc...

[hammerhead]

Splat,

I certainly didn't ignore the suggestion for multi-year. That is something the board has considered in the past, and will certainly continue to review as our financial conditions evolve.

Everyone - keep up the conversation. We will be discussing your opinions.

H.

[Superb Man]

Harold,

Tonight I will send an email to everyone on that list that has an email--while I think phone calls are invasive emails-pointed and not scams or spams--are generally better received (how many emails do we get from the BOD and PK adfter all??).

LIam

[bikapelli]

I think this is all a little crazy, it's $25 bucks a year! I just don't think people are being asked for this money. I like the multi-year idea, combine that with the introductory fee of maybe $15 for the first year, $25 each additional yearor vice versa $25/$15. I don't think a free membership for helping out is a good idea, we need members who help out, pay dues and have a ideas to share. We don't just need names on a list. I love when anyone comes to help out, I feel good, they feel good and it always makes a difference. I think if we try real hard we could even get memberships from non bikers because people will see the differance they make for everyone. We work on multi-use trails not mtb only trails. Can anyone back me up or help me with tweaking some of these Ideas 'cause I do attend the meetings and I will speak to the BOD. I will do anything I can to help further us!( wow! talk about a soap box!)

[BG]

"I think if we try real hard we could even get memberships from non bikers because people will see the differance they make for everyone. We work on multi-use trails not mtb only trails."


I agree 100%. This is a very important point and i believe more energy should be spent in the direction of involving "multi-users" into the equation and not be so focused on "us".

BG

[Jisch]

"I think if we try real hard we could even get memberships from non bikers because people will see the differance they make for everyone. We work on multi-use trails not mtb only trails."


I agree 100%. This is a very important point and i believe more energy should be spent in the direction of involving "multi-users" into the equation and not be so focused on "us".

BG

I think that's a much harder sell. I mean I'm not so sure that hiker or mxer would appreciate getting Singletracks - which is our flagship product, if you will.

I like this thread though, good comments throughout.
John

[bikapelli]

I'm not a hiker but I do enjoy being part of the AMC.

[BG]

I think that's a much harder sell. I mean I'm not so sure that hiker or mxer would appreciate getting Singletracks - which is our flagship product, if you will.

I like this thread though, good comments throughout.
John



I think we are at a time where we face a much harder sell anyway, might as well try to include other user groups as much as possible. I talk with many people on the trails who are not mtb's who greatly appreciate what NEMBA is doing, would like to be involved somehow, but don't necc want to contribute/ join as a mtb'er. Is there a way we can figure out how to include them into the mix??

BG

[Jisch]

I'm not a hiker but I do enjoy being part of the AMC.

I can understand that. I guess to put things in perspective (trying to be realistic here not argumentative) would you want to be part of NETRA (New England Trail Riding Association -motorcycle club)? or how about some New England ATV club?

Personally I've encountered very few hostile hikers, but from the general vibe I get, we as MTBers are viewed as lower on the forest usage overall totem pole (right or wrong) than hikers.

John

[mcd]

Send out emails, call, do mailings! do whatever it takes to get the membership up. numbers mean a lot when dealing with the gov or local departments. more users = more voters = more attention!

also, maybe i've missed it, but maybe you could remind people of what they get by being a member. post stats of trails and mileage in EVERY message to the membership. some bikeshops also give a standard 10% off in stock accessories/clothes/misc stuff(landry's) just for showing a nemba card. it took me almost 6 months to discover this! Post this info in EVERY message sent out. or make a special page in singletracks with kind of an ongoing tally of cool stuff for and by members.

and while i'm on my soapbox...the nemba funrides kinda suck for a newcomer. there should be more "lead" rides. that start at a specific time and are for beginners, intermediates, experts etc... most of the nemba funrides are just marked courses and the only way to ride with a group is if you make the group yourself, which isn't easy for someone new to nemba or the area. i've skipped the majority of the "fests" because i was unable to hook up with a group to ride with and what fun is a funfest where you basically end up riding a marked course by yourself.

[bikapelli]

I can understand that. I guess to put things in perspective (trying to be realistic here not argumentative) would you want to be part of NETRA (New England Trail Riding Association -motorcycle club)? or how about some New England ATV club?

Personally I've encountered very few hostile hikers, but from the general vibe I get, we as MTBers are viewed as lower on the forest usage overall totem pole (right or wrong) than hikers.

John

I kid you not I am a paid member of MASS ATV, I thought it would be a good idea to work with them

[BG]

Since when did people think mtb'ers only mtb.
Much of this is about trails, period, for all legitimate users.
I am a member of 7 different trail/usage, maintenance/advocacy groups.

BG

[MTBME]

Send out emails, call, do mailings! do whatever it takes to get the membership up. numbers mean a lot when dealing with the gov or local departments. more users = more voters = more attention!


The emails and mailings have been going on for a long time with mixed results. I don't understand it myself. But lets play devils advocate here. As a non member you still have access to the web site, ride info, trail work and special events. Yes you don't get singletracks but you can access most of that on the web also. You don't get a discount at the LBS but how many of us shop for our bike gear on the web?

As for bringing other user groups on board, I'm not real optimistic about how well that will work. Yes we get compliments from them on the great trail work but beyond that, how well do they really identify themselves with us. They won't say it but I think those hidden prejudices are still there at times, simmering beneath the surface. They tend to see themselves as the true naturalists with the rest of us belonging to a high tech fad.

Of course I'm not making a blanket statement of all walkers, joggers and hikers we see in the forest. But the bottom line is WE have to support our love of mountain biking and maintaining a first class trail system that will be available to us when we want to ride. Because if WE don't, there's nobody out there that will do it for us. So yes we need the numbers, clout and credibility that a big organization gives us. We can only do that by retaining and adding new members to our ranks.

[bikapelli]

Well said! I totally agree with starting at the roots!

[BigMac]

Harold, I too have time on my hands if you want some more help on this.
BTW are you riding greenfield ridge tomorrow night 9pm?

[FriedRys]

How about "on the spot sign up" at trailwork day's and NEMBA rides?

Hard to believe, but there is still a lot of riders that don't surf the websites and/or are not comfortable sending financial info over the net. Making it a simple matter of filling out a form and giving someone that you have been working/riding with all day a few buck's might make joining a bit more attractive to some riders.

[S2RT]

I like the multi year idea as well. I don't think members are too concerned about the tax deduction for the membership (whatever it may be) year to year. As others have suggested, it's about the NUMBERS when time comes to apply for grants. That's why I suggested reduced/free membership for the dedicated non members who show up at trail maintenance days. Higher membership ###'s = more clout at all levels of gov't. As for the "overdue" member renewals (I'm guilty too), can't a NEMBAbot auto send email reminders based a date flag in the member database?

[hammerhead]

Right now the NEMBA Bot is PK. Probably not the highest and best use of his time!

[TA]

I was just looking at the forum membership list and alot of the members are listed as non NEMBA members and some are frequent posters. Maybe some are now members and some have not logged on in a while.
These people are potential members. We could send out PMs to them and see what happens.

Also any one who is not a member on the forum let us know why you have not joined, this might help to encourage new people to join.

[hammerhead]

Good point Terry,

H.

[PutAwayWet]

I'm not a hiker but I do enjoy being part of the AMC.

I am a hiker, and I don't particularly care for the AMC. Their new Mega-plex in Crawford Notch was a byproduct of having the opposite problem we do - too much membership dollars, not enough to do with it (or maybe, misguided goals).

The difference I see between the AMC and NEMBA is trail presence. Every time you hike an AMC trail, every trail sign, every hut, ever waterbar is basically branded with the AMC name/logo. They've somehow convinced the forest service that they can manage trails/land better than they can (or at least pour money into that management better than the political leadership).

When you ride at Bear Brook, or Ft. Rock, or Mt. A - when do you see NEMBA's name? There might be a plank on a bridge with our logo, but that's it.

Maybe what we need to do is enhance our brand. To do that, maybe we have to convince land managers that we can fully adopt sections of trail (and place signs/trail markers anouncing our presence on those trails). When a rider rides through, our impact (and worthiness of their donations/memberships/etc) is in their face. Trails we build are better, and people will see that and want to be a part of it.

This of course isn't an overnight change, and it will take a while to get our name more visible in areas where we do trail work. But in the long run I think moving in this direction is a win/win situation - appease land manager by reducing their work load, and increase the NEMBA brand presence. The more visible our accomplishments, the more people want to be associated with us.

[Slappy]

Appalachian Money Collectors?

[Who]

I wanted to join my local Nemba Chapter back when I signed up for the forums, but after a unreturned email and a thread on here that went no where I said 'screw it'. I guess I could still donate, but if I am going to donate to something I would like to feel like I am a part of the organization. I think it is great what you guys did out in nam, I just hope to get out that way to ride it soon. Then maybe I will feel a bit more compelled to donate. for the moment I only ride Otis, and other private single track around Falmouth. Nothing that NEMBA takes care of that I know of. I am not big on trail of tears. Nice spot, but I prefer Otis. If you guys had some kind of involvement at Otis you would get to know me REAL well. I do my part whenever I ride by picking up slobs trash, but thats about it. I just pack out whatever I see until my pockets/camelpak are full. I stay up on the forums in hopes I see something of interest near me, but nothing yet really.

[Jisch]

...Nothing that NEMBA takes care of that I know of...

Here in CT, NEMBA is pretty silent on the north end of the state (where I live and ride). That being said, I'm still an ardent supporter of NEMBA. As is mentioned somewhere else in this thread, regardless of local activity, having numbers means something when one of our representatives can stand up and say they have 4,000 (or whatever the number is) members behind them.

I know that "active" membership (i.e. showing up on trail days) is more important than someone who is just paying the dues and getting the magazine (maybe even writing an article or two). Honestly at this point in my life that's what I can offer. Once my kids get their driver's licenses (oh man that's going to be painful) then I'll have more time to spend maintaining trails.

I also recognize that I could easily get a trail day scheduled and staffed. That day will come. If someone else sets one up locally, I'll be there (if my schedule allows).

I really like the idea of plastering the NEMBA name anywhere we do work - its good marketing.

John

[Slappy]

I say if you've got time to ride, then you've got time for trailwork. :fat:

My area (near Leominster MA) has historically been pretty quiet with the exception of clean-up sorta work in LeoSF (at least for the last few years). Finally, this past Saturday we did a local project on some private property that ended up a being a bunch of my regular riding buddys along with our local NEMBA president cutting a sweet little trail stash, with NEMBA picking up the tab for the pizza and providing tools (thanks!). This was something we put together initially and got NEMBA involved with afterward; I say this as an example of how you don't need to wait for these projects to be handed down from above - you can get out and initiate things yourself and have a great resource for help if/when it becomes needed.

This past weekend was the first time I'd done any NEMBA trailbuilding closer than a 45 minute drive from my house. There are a few places around that I've gone to more times in the last few years for trailwork than for riding. Don't sit and wait for things to fall into your lap; check the calender, pick a day and place and show up, even if you have to drive a little ways a few times a year.

If you want to feel more involved, get more involved.
:D

[MTBME]

I say if you've got time to ride, then you've got time for trailwork. :fat:
:D

I have to agree with Slappy here. And I can vouch that he does travel long distances to do trail work in others back yard. He's always welcomed here in the Merrimack Valley. I have to add that for some of us, cutting new trails, does cut into riding time, big time. There's many weekends of preparation scouting, flagging, and re-flagging, before you actually get in there with a trail crew. Its a love hate relationship. I love the results, but I hate missing out on all those prime riding opportunities.

[Slappy]

Thanks Norm; and to your point, this weekend's totals for me were ~12 hours of trailwork (not all NEMBA stuff) and a .5 hour of riding. It'll all pay off in the end tho - hopefully as well as it has in your kneck of the woods!

[Jisch]

I say if you've got time to ride, then you've got time for trailwork. :fat:

Yeah, that's obviously true. I could give up one of my rides each week to do trail work. I gotta do better at that. This is going to sound like excuses (because it is) but if there were more trail days closer to home I'd do them more often - this is both from a practical (less drive time) and a selfish (work on the trails I ride) perspective. Over the last year there has been only two or three trail days (none of which I could make) within an hour of my house.

I need to get some trail days set up here in Northern CT.

I'll try and get something done over the summer.
John

[BadDNA]

Yeah, that's obviously true. I could give up one of my rides each week to do trail work. I gotta do better at that. This is going to sound like excuses (because it is) but if there were more trail days closer to home I'd do them more often - this is both from a practical (less drive time) and a selfish (work on the trails I ride) perspective. Over the last year there has been only two or three trail days (none of which I could make) within an hour of my house.

I need to get some trail days set up here in Northern CT.

I'll try and get something done over the summer.
John

THAT...If there isn't anybody else setting up the trailcare days, take the initiative and set them up yourself. Work with your local chapter and the land manager, come up with a plan and execute.

[PutAwayWet]

What if we asked land managers to place more signs? Something along the lines of "This multi-use trail is maintained in part by the NEMBA for the enjoyment of all outdoor enthusiasts", with the web address on the bottom of the sign and maybe "Find out how you can help keep these trails enjoyable for all"...

Something to A) Get our name out; B) Show that we respect all trail users (and maybe recruit some non-bikers); and C) Drum up support, all at the same time...

[TA]

WHO thanks for responding. Don't think of NEMBA as "you guys" the only differance between us and you is that we are members, we paid the $25. It sounds like you do trail work already.
With NEMBA you really do get out of it what you put in to it. If you join and wait for somthing to happen nothing is going to happen except for "Single Tracks" showing up at your door. If you make an effort to show up to work days and events and make a point of meeting other members than you get alot more out of it.
Also if you join and do work at Otis, then NEMBA will be doing work where you ride.
If you want to join you can do it on this site.

[Jisch]

THAT...If there isn't anybody else setting up the trailcare days, take the initiative and set them up yourself. Work with your local chapter and the land manager, come up with a plan and execute.

Yes, this is 100% what I would like to do, I'll try to get something going this summer - Ideally at a local place I frequent. NEMBA has done work there before and I ride there a lot.

I have a question about this:
I can think of two trails which need work one of which is officially "off limits" to bikes and the other is a renegade trail which appears to have been built by MTBers. From a selfish perspective I'd much rather work on the renegade trail, however I don't think bringing attention to it is in our best interest. There has definitely been damage to the "off limits" trail by MTBers. I guess my concern is that by working on this trail, we are sort of admitting to using a trail we shouldn't be. The trail as it exists is very steep and goes straight down the fall line, its been washed out since I've been riding there (20 years) but its getting worse.

Just curious for input - I guess after typing it out, I think the "off limits" trail sounds like the better option.

John

[BadDNA]

Yes, this is 100% what I would like to do, I'll try to get something going this summer - Ideally at a local place I frequent. NEMBA has done work there before and I ride there a lot.

I have a question about this:
I can think of two trails which need work one of which is officially "off limits" to bikes and the other is a renegade trail which appears to have been built by MTBers. From a selfish perspective I'd much rather work on the renegade trail, however I don't think bringing attention to it is in our best interest. There has definitely been damage to the "off limits" trail by MTBers. I guess my concern is that by working on this trail, we are sort of admitting to using a trail we shouldn't be. The trail as it exists is very steep and goes straight down the fall line, its been washed out since I've been riding there (20 years) but its getting worse.

Just curious for input - I guess after typing it out, I think the "off limits" trail sounds like the better option.

John

Not that I'm advocating renegade building, but if you really don't know who built the trail I don't think it looks bad on you for pointing it out to the land manager. What I would suggest is to offer help repairing the damage that's been done on the "No bikes" trail and at the same time mention the renegade trail and see what the land manager's thoughts are on it. If they'd like it closed, offer to help with it, if they are okay with the trail, make your suggestions for improving it. Either way, a willingness to work within their limits on projects they've approved goes a long way to building or reinforcing a strong relationship that's mutually beneficial.