ATV use may be impacting water quality in city, officials say

[off piste]

This could be a good thing. If the ATV'ers start to affect the public at large, maybe the existing laws will finally be enforced against them. I know I've called the DCR plenty of times when I spotted ATV's in Leominster and they didn't seem to care:

http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/ci_5668613

ATV use may be impacting water quality in city, officials sayBy Aaron Wasserman
Sentinel & EnterpriseArticle Launched:
LEOMINSTER -- The tracks from all-terrain vehicles look innocent enough, but their recent proliferation on city-owned conservation land has officials concerned about the impact on the city's water quality.
"It might be pretty to ride your ATV around the reservoir, but what they're doing is they're creating ruts in the trails," said Larry P. Gianakis Jr., the city's conservation agent, in an interview. "It creates mud and during heavy rains, the mud can be carried down into the water and the ruts get bigger and bigger."
ATV use on city conservation land is prohibited. But Gianakis said it has picked up under the power lines that extend in both directions off Willard Street, where the city recently received about 45 acres of open space from a developer building a residential subdivision nearby. Other problem spots are located around Fall Brook and Notown Reservoirs and Leominster State Forest.
Places for legal ATV riding are few in Central Massachusetts, which city officials acknowledged is probably one reason they are having problems with it. Nearly all riding in the area is confined to private property whose owners allow it.
The state Department of Conservation and Recreation only allows ATV riding in eight state parks and this week closed access to the Georgetown-Rowley State Forest because of environmental concerns. The riding season begins on May 1.
"There's no plan to open any more," said Wendy Fox, a DCR spokesperson, in an interview.
But city officials said the lack of ATV riding space -- and increasing development on previously preserved land -- here does not mean the city should consider opening an ATV-friendly trail.
"I don't know that that would be the answer," said Kelley Freda, a conservation commissioner. "A lot of the land that is preserved is to keep the water supply clean. I don't think creating a trail would help. I think we need to keep them off completely."
Beyond affecting water quality, the silty runoff from ATV tracks also harms aquatic wildlife, according to Freda, who also works for the DCR. She said when a body of water becomes "cloudy or muddy, then the sunlight doesn't go down to the bottom and kills off plants and fish."
Additionally, ATV riders have been holding bonfires on the city land off Willard Street, once they access the property, officials said.
"Often times, the younger ones will congregate and have bonfires so there's certainly a cause for concern for the neighbors," said Police Chief Peter Roddy. "It's a quality-of-life issue."
Roddy and Gianakis said their departments will be coordinating on how to stem the problem. The police department has several officers trained to drive its ATVs to catch trespassers, and officials said they will contact the state environment police for help.
They also said they plan to more obviously post "No Trespassing" signs on city conservation land so parents are aware their children can't be dropped off the day for a day of riding.
"It's something the city takes very seriously," Gianakis said.

[gixxerw]

I would say until the DCR opens more areas to trail riders then illegal riding will get worse.

[Slappy]

Until we convert to Islam terrorist attacks will continue...

[gixxerw]

So when do you prey to ALA then?
Once the DCR gets rid of us from all the forest's there will not be anyone between you guys and them you will be next on the hit list.

[off piste]

That statement is so clueless I'm having problems downshifting and formulating a response. If you think the DCR, or any land management entity wants to get rid of an environmentally friendly, pro-active group like mountain bikers, you should study a case example, such as the relationship of NEMBA and DCR in Wendell State Forest, for one. And that's just ONE example. Hell, we just got INVITED to build trails up in Brookline, NH, by the Conservation Commission. You destroy, we build and maintain. Now, please don't pollute things with your Leftist attitude that you're OWED access to forest areas just because you bought a machine that has no practical use in New England. There's plenty of ATV trails, just point the rig and trailer South on 95 and drive a 1000 miles or so.

Now excuse me, I gotta go kneel and face East.......

[Slappy]

Ahhh....we've been thru all this before...it's not worth retyping it all every few months. :rolleyes:

When people see ATVer out in force fixing damage and being proactive in keeping the renegades in their community from trashing off limits trails, then opinions might start changing.

[dark mavis]

Well, actually, there was a couple of years in the late 90's where the NETRA guys did get together to do trailwork in the Berkshires, where the 5 largest forests are still open. I know because Amanda I used to make the 2 - 3 hour drive to spend all day trying to fix unfixable drainage problems. The frequency & turnout for these events was similar to NEMBA's.

NEMBA has earned bikes a place in the woods and the right to take the moral high road - The ATVs have not. Ask yourself why the ATV community hasn't come together like the MTB commnunity has. Is it because only scumbags ride motorized vehicles? Is because NETRA only cares about racing? Is it because ATV's are a form of motorized day care for teenagers? Or maybe the noise, pollution, and unruliness of ATVs is incompatible with public space? If you think this is just left wing audobon society envirofreaks taking control of the government - you need to get your head out of your arse.

[gixxerw]

OK lets see here, Brookline NH will have some of the largest area for dirtbikes also as far as downshifting to formulate a response you would have to get out of reverse first. They have plenty of practical use in NE if whiny people from the cities would stop moving in. Do you think the local clubs have a signed agreement with the DCR because they don't do the work necesary? It isn't because i bought a machine it is because i bought a registration and paid sales tax to the state of mass what have you paid for as far as using the forest?

As for the next scumbags huh well then only whiny little biatches ride MTB's is that low enough for you to understand since you seem to have taken there. The 5 largest stae forest are taken care of out there by local DIRTBIKE clubs and NEATV. i ride pittsfeild alot during the year and i would love to see a MTB use the same trails we are allowed to use. If you guys were leftist evirofreaks then you wouldn't allow yourself to use the forest either because everyone knows the only truely safe forest is one where no one treads. Head out of my arse? Maybe you should stop getting numb brains from riding on that little seat yes i am implying you keep your brains in your arse! Have a nice day and see you on the trails.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Are you guys arguing about ATV's or dirt bikes? Somehow the line got blurred here.

[off piste]

We (MTB'ers) are talking about ATV's, not dirtbikers. Guess I didn't type slow enough.

BTW, here's a a little bit of an email that I got about a week ago from the Conservation Commission contact while we were discussing the Brookline network:

Hi mark still snow here,now for the bad news the town of Milford is going to reopen their atv park that closley abuts our trail system. I am afraid that all our hard work will be destroyed.Not sure how to reacte to this but thought you might want to know.

[gixxerw]

ATV's and Dirtbikes are different animals to bad we all get grouped together. Like i said before common enemies to both our groups.

[Mr_Cheeze]

The irony here is that you grouped yourself in here. If you go back to the first thread, he clearly was talking about ATV's.

[off piste]

It's been straitened out in PM, he's cool.

[gixxerw]

Yes all is good now. I wasn't talking about his post in general i was talking the article in general. It is a little hard to distinguish when the state refers to all ORV's as ATV's.

[Slappy]

It's been straitened out in PM, he's cool.

Says you. From what I just read he's a moron.

"It isn't because i bought a machine it is because i bought a registration and paid sales tax to the state of mass what have you paid for as far as using the forest?"

I registered my truck; can I ride that on the trails if I want then? You think the only items in the state that sales tax is charged on are dirtbikes and ATVs? That's the lamest attempt at an argument ever, and you guys keep wheeling it out. How about we figure out who pays more taxes overall - the 'city folk and leftists' or 'stupid teenagers and rednecks'. Let me know what you come up with, and we'll let you know when and if you're gonna ever get legal trails, 'kay?

"As for the next scumbags huh well then only whiny little biatches ride MTB's is that low enough for you to understand since you seem to have taken there."

:D F' you.

"The 5 largest stae forest are taken care of out there by local DIRTBIKE clubs and NEATV. i ride pittsfeild alot during the year and i would love to see a MTB use the same trails we are allowed to use."

Right, so 'taken care of' means totally unusable by anyone else. Keep up the good work. That and going around insulting people should make you really welcome. Way to go genius.

[off piste]

Says you. From what I just read he's a moron.

<SNIP>

Hmmmm, interesting. A few seasons back, when we were riding out in Leominster and we stopped and talked to the old timer and the kid on dirtbikes, you didn't have much to say to them in regards to them not being allowed there. In fact, I seem to recall all of us being enthralled by his stories of him and his friends putting in most of the Leominster trails on dirtbikes about 20-30 years beforehand.

[Slappy]

Those guys weren't spouting a bunch of insults and nonsense at the time though, were they?

[off piste]

So if they were you wouldn't have looked the other way and you would've let them know they didn't belong there?

[Slappy]

It was clear those guys already knew they shouldn't be there, I'm pretty sure they brought it up almost right off the bat. What's your point? We should've tackled them and held them for the authorities?

[gixxerw]

I am talking ORV specific registrations. Do you have to pay a trail user fee or register your MTB as an ORV? Lets talk hunting lisence fees that also pay for the state forest's do you stop riding the forest when it is hunting season? I do it is the right thing to do. If you haven't already checked out my profile i live in RI where we have no legal riding at all so i in turn paid my sales tax to mass and registered in ma i also pay a registration fee and trail sticker to Maine. I was attcked first in this thread a good defense is the best offense i would say. Any other questions?

[off piste]

Wouldn't have done any good -- the DCR only now seems to be concerned about the ATV issue, and only because it effects the public drinking water, not the work of a trail group.

My "point?" I pretty much thought that it was that the dirtbikers preceded us and were seen as a seperate entity from the ATV'ers. Above, I was simply addressing your statement in Post #17 that you seemingly would've had a different response to the dirtbikers if they'd acted insulting.

[Slappy]

Again, what's your point? That I like to indulge in pleasant trailside chats with people that roll up and start calling me a 'scumbag' and a 'whiny little bitch'?

I am much happier seeing dirtbikes than ATVs out there tho, that's for sure. I still say the whole tax and registration argument is crock though. Everyone that buys and registers an ORV in MA is well aware of the restrictions on them (or should be) so complaining after the fact doesn't make much sense to me, and sure isn't an argument expanding access.

[gixxerw]

It isn't an argument to expand access but when they shut down all access to dirtbikes/atvs and they loose all that revenue from people registering their bikes to ride in other states who will they start charging then?
Closing forest is only going to create more illegal riding anyway then they will have to get more revenue to stop the illegal riding where will that come from?
What was that saying from the gun ban era make owning a gun a criminal offense and only criminals will have them. People aren't going to stop riding if they ban all access they will just ride faster with less regard.

[Slappy]

Which brings us kinda full circle...let us in or else...or else you'll have to pay more for enforcement....or else we'll just keep trashing trails...or else we'll ride more recklessly...

How about let us in and we'll keep work hard to keep the trails in decent shape....and make sure that off-limits areas are respected....etc etc? How come I never hear that sort of argument and see little that would back up statements to that effect?

For instance, what's your take on what caused the (fairly) recent closures of the two MA areas and what could have been done to keep them open? Were those places looking good and it was all hysterical overraction from the 'city folk', or were they being trashed and no one was able (willing?) to keep up with the damage?

[gixxerw]

My take on that is they were to small to begin with, Geor/Row had only 5 miles of trails that were mostly used by beginners and with the new criteria 30 miles or more and so many feet away from adjacent residences it didn't meet the criteria. There are groups of people all summer long doing work parties in all the state forests on the ORV trails we are allowed to use Franklin/Wrentham/Foxboro is coming up want me to tell you when?
It isn't "or else" it is plain simple fact of life what happens typically in america when the government or authorities tell a certain group they can't it makes people wnat to do it even more. My statement above wasn't a threat just human nature to resist what is forced on them.
Most of the forest have been closed due to people buying up the surounding land then complaining because they think it is their forest and they shouldn't have to share it. Thats why GTF got shutdown.

[Slappy]

GTF is Groton right? I don't see them not 'sharing' - that place hosts plenty of bikers, hikers and hunters. (FWIW, I used to ride there when it was open to motorized use and it was never a big deal to me, but it sure would suck for if trails everywhere were as beat as the ones there - tons of sand and waist-high channels, etc). Maybe that and the noise had something to do with it? But overall, you don't see any connection between trail wear / environmental damage and access huh? Interesting.

[gixxerw]

Trail wear comes from too many squeezing into 9 forests OH sorry 8 now and how many out here in the east? Maybe If more forests were open to us there would be less damage as you call it due to over crowding and over use. Think of it this way if all the forests were multi use would you have a 100 dirtbikes all crowding into say franklin with a measly 6 miles of trail or freetown with an abundance of boulders to ride. The multitude of us would be spread out limiting the use and number of us in those few small areas.

[Slappy]

Wasn't that how it used to be until people got sick of the 'damage' as I call it? Wouldn't more open access draw more users and embolden the clueless majority who already could care less about what sort of shape they leave a place in? (Granted, 2-wheelers get a raw deal being lumped in with quads - dunno how you guys would tackle that one)

[gixxerw]

Thats exactly how it was until the evil 3 and 4 wheelers came along, use to take skill to ride in the woods now if you have a gas can and a cooler full of schlitz you can ride in the woods.

[BigMac]

Trail wear comes from too many squeezing into 9 forests OH sorry 8 now and how many out here in the east? Maybe If more forests were open to us there would be less damage as you call it due to over crowding and over use. Think of it this way if all the forests were multi use would you have a 100 dirtbikes all crowding into say franklin with a measly 6 miles of trail or freetown with an abundance of boulders to ride. The multitude of us would be spread out limiting the use and number of us in those few small areas.

Keep your Quads and Dirt Bikes, take the engine's out and replace with pedal's......

[BigMac]

To add more:
First let me say-not all ATV'rs destroy everything, "just the ones I have seen"!!
1> unfortunatly, I don't think the charge enough for registrations for quad's, D Bikes, etc.
2> I have yet to see a atv'er ride legaly on posted trails.
3>I have yet to see any atv'er fix or maintain anything other than their atv.
I do not intend to say that all atv'ers are no good, as I am sure that all wil take it that way.
those who are good.....prove it! put your money where your mouth is.
you obviously knew there would be discussions here about this and intended to add your 2 cents. you want to prove us wrong, well there are always a ton of work days listed here all over the US, so take note and show up and give back and help fix some of the things in state parks that have been damaged.
Mark Courtemanche,

[gixxerw]

OK i will list our work days also then you could show up at ours. The proving it to you thing i have never seen a work party by MTB anywhere but Vietnam or are they just all over the us not here in NE.
OK BirkshireTrail Riders is having a work party in Pittsfeild April 29th 9 am

KIng philip trail riders

Below are the dates for the roadside clean ups at the State Forests
10:00 AM Start time for all dates.
April 7th Foxboro Headquarters
From the intersection of Rte. 495 & Rte. 1 take Rte.1 North and take a right at the second traffic light (approx. 1.5 – 2 miles). Follow this road past the Normandy Farms Campground and take your next left. The HQ will be approx. 1 mile on the left. There are also small brown? Forestry signs but these can be hard to notice.
For Foxboro only – If you are running late, continue up Rte.1 North another mile or so and take a right onto High Rock Road which is at the top of the hill on Rte.1 just before the State Police Barracks. You can meet up with members there.

April 14th Wrentham Taunton Street Parking Lot
From the intersection of Rte.495 & Rte.1 take Rte.1 South and take your first right (just before the traffic light) and then another right at the traffic light onto Taunton Street. The parking lot is approx. 1.5 miles on the left.
April 21st Franklin at the intersection of Beaver and Grove Streets

Good?

[C.P.]

Just wanted to point out that I do not consider trail work to be "trash pickup", and dont even count volunteer hours at year end for this type of work in our area (SEMASS). Although the Land Manager's we work with appreciate our picking up litter (we recently did some at F Gilbert Hills and have a few more dates upcoming) the big difference between picking up litter and picking up a pick mattocks, mcleod, shovel and following a land manager approved plan to improve a trail so it wears better and needs less maintenance overall is what slappy and others are trying to point out as being "trailwork".

The tools, expertise, and success stories (trails improved/built) we've assembled throughout the last couple decades demonstrates this.

[AA]

. The proving it to you thing i have never seen a work party by MTB anywhere but Vietnam or are they just all over the us not here in NE?

Good?

Are you serious? Look here

http://www.nemba.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22

10 different work days scheduled in the next month alone. I am willing to bet that that is not a complete list. I am doing a project with my local land manager that is not a NEMBA event.

[off piste]

From the Nemba Events page on this site:


http://www.nemba.org/nembaevents/events.html (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../nembaevents/events.html)

Merlin / NEMBA Trail Care Series http://www.nemba.org/forums/../nembaevents/images/Merlin.gif (http://www.merlinbikes.com/bikes/2005/oreas.aspx) Win this bike!
Project Leaders: please use this Liability Release form (http://www.nemba.org/forums/../nembaevents/documents/TrailCareLiabilitySignin.pdf)
Blackstone Valley NEMBA (http://www.bvnemba.org/calendar.php) (more info) Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: Coming Soon Berkshire NEMBA Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: Coming Soon
Cape Cod NEMBA Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: Coming Soon Charlie Genatossio (cgenatossio@hotmail.com) 617-515-4812 Greater Boston NEMBA (http://www.gbnemba.org/trailwork.php) (more info) Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: April 1 Middlesex Fells Reservation Tom Grimble (tgrimble@comcast.net), 617-932-1969 May 6 Middlesex Fells Reservation Tom Grimble (tgrimble@comcast.net), 617-932-1969 May 12 Great Brook Farm SP Philip Keyes (pk@nemba.org), 978-263-0459 June 3 Middlesex Fells Reservation Tom Grimble (tgrimble@comcast.net), 617-932-1969 July 8 Middlesex Fells Reservation Tom Grimble (tgrimble@comcast.net), 617-932-1969 Aug. 5 Middlesex Fells Reservation Tom Grimble (tgrimble@comcast.net), 617-932-1969 Sept. 2 Middlesex Fells Reservation Tom Grimble (tgrimble@comcast.net), 617-932-1969 Maine NEMBA Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: April 20 Bradbury Mountain State Park Calvin Weeks (clwsdj@fairpoint.net), 207-650-3702 May 6 Bradbury Mountain State Park Calvin Weeks (clwsdj@fairpoint.net), 207-650-3702 Merrimack Valley NEMBA Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: April 14 Lowell-Dracut State Forest Norman Blanchette (n.blanchette@comcast.net), 978-455-5605 May 20 Lowell-Dracut State Forest Norman Blanchette (n.blanchette@comcast.net), 978-455-5605 June 16 Lowell-Dracut State Forest Norman Blanchette (n.blanchette@comcast.net), 978-455-5605 July 22 Lowell-Dracut State Forest Norman Blanchette (n.blanchette@comcast.net), 978-455-5605 Sept. 16 Lowell-Dracut State Forest Norman Blanchette (n.blanchette@comcast.net), 978-455-5605 Oct. 13 Lowell-Dracut State Forest Norman Blanchette (n.blanchette@comcast.net), 978-455-5605 Mt. Agamenticus NEMBA (http://www.mtanemba.org/) (more info) Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: Coming Soon North Shore NEMBA (http://www.nsnemba.org/)(more info)
Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: April 22 Harold Parker State Forest
Dan Streeter (trailwork@nsnemba.org) May 19 Harold Parker State Forest
Dan Streeter (trailwork@nsnemba.org) June 2 Tompson Mountain Res.
Dan Streeter (trailwork@nsnemba.org) June 16 TBA
Dan Streeter (trailwork@nsnemba.org) Sept. 15 TBA
Dan Streeter (trailwork@nsnemba.org) Oct. 14 TBA
Dan Streeter (trailwork@nsnemba.org) Pioneer Valley NEMBA Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: April 28 D.A.R. State Forest Richard LaBombard (blr00@verizon.net), 413-527-7427 May 5 Wendell State Forest -- DCR Park Serve Day Mark Courtemanche (mbike29@yahoo.com), 413-522-3204 May 12 Wendell State Forest -- DCR Park Serve Day Mark Courtemanche (mbike29@yahoo.com), 413-522-3204 May 13 Wendell State Forest -- DCR Park Serve Day Mark Courtemanche (mbike29@yahoo.com), 413-522-3204 Rhode Island NEMBA (http://www.rinemba.org/) (more info) Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: Coming Soon SE MA NEMBA (http://www.semassnemba.org/) (more info) Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: April 1 Ames Nowell State Park Malcolm Neilson (malcride@yahoo.com), 508-510-9606 April 7 Wrentham State Forest Kevin Delaney (kmdmac@cox.net) April 14 Foxboro State Forest Kevin Delaney (kmdmac@cox.net) April 21 Franklin State Forest Kevin Delaney (kmdmac@cox.net) May 27 Ames Nowell State Park Malcolm Neilson (malcride@yahoo.com), 508-510-9606 June 2 Wompatuck State Park Steve Cobble (cobblestv@gmail.com), 781-254-8796 Wachusett NEMBA Date: Place Phone / Email Contact: April 28 Midstate/Whitman River Trail Don Seifert (storkula@comcast.net), 978-833-6555 May 12 Leominster State Forest -- DCR ParkServe Day Jim Wrightson (jjwright@princeton-ma.us), 978-852-4800 June 2 Leominster State Forest -- National Trails Day Jim Wrightson (jjwright@princeton-ma.us), 978-852-4800 August 25 Leominster State Forest Jim Wrightson (jjwright@princeton-ma.us), 978-852-4800 Sept. 29 Leominster State Forest -- National Public Lands Day Jim Wrightson (jjwright@princeton-ma.us), 978-852-4800 October 13 Mid-State Trail Don Seifert (storkula@comcast.net), 978-833-6555

[gixxerw]

WOW you guys are right you are better then us you win!

[digger]

gixxerw

I'm up here near Georgetown-Rowley SF which was recently closed to OHVs. I'm not overjoyed at the closure like many folks are; I see a lot of illegal riding is going to occur with the limited enforcement that's available. I went to a Friends OF GRSF meeting at which Gary Briere, DCR, head recreation guy and point man for DCR on OHV matters, clearly pointed out that there is no way that even seriously committed volunteers can correct the existing trail problems on trails that OHVs frequent. Nor can volunteers create sustainable trails that will hold up with intensive 4-wheeled ATV use. Professional design and engineering, heavy equipment, and purchased materials are needed. All this is erxpensive. You can believe it or not, but he said that he hoped somehow to find the financial resources to make improvements at the remaining forest open to OHVs. A million bucks per park was the figure tossed out.

I feel badly that responsible motorbike riders have less terrain to operate. But at least you still have some legal riding in eastern mass. 4-wheelers have to go all the way to the berkshires. As DCR grapples with how to implement a responsible plan for sustainable motorized trails, I hope they get the necessary support of the user group they are trying to accomodate.

[gixxerw]

Here is a quote he gave to other people
Gary is the "Green Giant". I have talked to him a few times on the phone about the rumors a few years ago of reopening up the Leominster state forest. His reply was "I'm totaly against orv use as they damage the forest. You need to get organized and vote the right people into government that will help your agenda". He was pleasant to talk to and told it straight. He just likes peace and quiet in the woods. Can't fault the guy just because he swings to the left.

[BigMac]

OK i will list our work days also then you could show up at ours. The proving it to you thing i have never seen a work party by MTB anywhere but Vietnam or are they just all over the us not here in NE.
OK BirkshireTrail Riders is having a work party in Pittsfeild April 29th 9 am

KIng philip trail riders

Good?

may 12 Wendell state forest.
I'll show you what trail work really is, and then you can go cry to everyone onthe website once agian.
Mark Courtemanche,

[digger]

I kind of figured you might focus on the messenger rather than the message. If motorized users want more access to state lands they will need to start working with DCR managers not question their politics or motivations. Back to the point of my previous post, it is hard to refute the argument that designing, building, and maintaining trails capable of sustaining the use of large numbers of 4 wheeled atvs is a task well beyond the capabilities of club volunteers.

Go to the upcoming DCR meeting Georgetown Middle/High School on Monday, April 23, at 7 p.m. You may come away with some hope for continuing and even expanding motorized use on DCR land.

[gixxerw]

It is his message i am focusing on not the messanger.

[digger]

Go to the meeting then because you don't know what his message is. You will learn a lot if you go with an open mind.

[recum_MTB]

wow, there is really a lot of animosity here among user groups that don't know each other personally as individuals. I am both a moutain biker and a dirt bike rider and it's easy to point fingers at anyone in either camp. We can also sit around and compare trail maintenance. Boy, what fun and how productive. I know tempers get flared up pretty easily on both sides but I wish people would just relax. As a dirt bike rider, I have found no other sport to be as fun, although mountain biking certainly comes in as a close second for me. But dirt bikes certainly do have a significant environmental impact, though I have witnessed nearly the same impact from the heavy volume of mountain bikers in some areas and, frankly, even from hikers (go look at the pinkham notch trail -- what a mess). Does this mean dirt biking should be eliminated as a permitted activity everywhere in MA? No, that it draconian and extremist. Instead, let's try to find ways to coexist and manage lands appropriately and responsibly. It's all too easy to try to single out one side or the other and just stop an activity that one side doesn't view favorably b/c it's not their hobby. Just not fair. I know all the arguments for and against ORV use and the bottom line is that we are an intelligent society so let's find ways to permit everyone to enjoy their hobbies, within certain limits. But anyone who thinks the DCR is giving the ORV community a fair shake is dilusional. Briere has specifically said in e-mail correspondence to the ORV community that there needs to be a new "paradigm" in MA for ORV use -- one that would consist of the ORV community funding private land purchases and perhaps (but not necessarily) reaching out to DCR for management. This is next to impossible given the cost of land in this state and the fact that it only takes a handful of vocal protestors to block anything in a local community, particularly those in the central and eastern part of the state. DCR knows this of course. I used to think DCR was at least trying, but the only "paradigm" I see from its actions over the years is to shut out ORV use on MA public lands, which is consistent with the backgrounds of the members of the land stewardship council.

Funny thing is that I am not greedy. I'd prefer to give the dirt bikers certain forests and not others. There are so many mountain biking opportunities in MA (and new england generally) that I don't feel the need to have all the forests available for the exclusive benefit of the non-motorized community. I just don't get that worked about it but a lot of people do. My mindset is live and let live. Life isn't perfect and we'll all have to compromise. As it stands, the ORV community without question is getting the short end of the stick in terms of compromise. I have to say, I dislike the exclusionist policies in place in MA and I am generally pro-environment.

[TheHare]

Ignorant or Genius...'gixxerw' gets my vote for "Forum Tough Guy". Goin Toe-2-Toe solo.

[Slappy]

It's all too easy to try to single out one side or the other and just stop an activity that one side doesn't view favorably b/c it's not their hobby.

You don't really think the reason so many people are anti - ATV is simply because it's not their hobby do you? Personally, I don't birdwatch, hunt, target shoot, fish, ride horses, snowmobile or rollerblade and yet I have nothing against sharing land with any of those activities. Paintball (if they clean up after themselves!) rock climbing, hang gliding, iceboating, kayaking, canoeing, XC skiing, even a bunch of characters in costumes with fake swords etc doing some sort of role-playing games is all good to go in my book. There are a ton of concrete gripes specific to motorized use that go far, far past simple (perceived) 'greed' on the part of other users. ORVers need to stop crying 'victim' and figure out realistic and workable solutions to those gripes.

[BG]

Ignorant or Genius...'gixxerw' gets my vote for "Forum Tough Guy". Goin Toe-2-Toe solo.


Naw...that would go to the Slider, leaning a bit more towards genius than ignorant
Let's have a poll...

[off piste]

Yep, Slider gets my vote. He can even ride a bike a little.:)

[recum_MTB]

"You don't really think the reason so many people are anti - ATV is simply because it's not their hobby do you?"

yup, I do. And the vast majority of people are indifferent to ORV use but those that are against it are extremely vocal and passionate about their dislike for the activity. In any event, I have seen environmental impact caused by many different user groups b/c I have actively participated in those activities (ever climb at Rumney, NH or Cathedral in N. Conway? -- big time impact from climbers; ever hike in the Whites? the presidential range in particular is a criss-cross web of eroding trails, all caused by high volume, low impact activity of hikers and campers -- I am up there consistently and see more and more destruction every year from the masses). most folks who criticize have not participated in the activity they criticize. and it is human nature to judge others as it gives many folks additional meaning and a feeling of self-importance. I have ridden mountain bikes for 20 years and have seen a lot and just don't see what the hysteria is about ORV use. I certainly see plenty of environmental impact from ORV use -- don't get me wrong -- but I don't understand or agree with the level of dislike that some have for the activity (and the people, who they don't even know as individuals). That's all I am saying. In fact, for years I never even rode anywhere that also permitted ORVs, except Foxboro, and was never troubled in the least. I try to understand both sides of debates and see legitimate issues raised by both sides. Ultimately, there is always a need for compromise. But going beyond that in favor of either side is extremist IMO and I see a lot of that in the anti-ORV crowd. And eliminating ORV use altogether is a draconian measure given how we cater to every other user group (which I have no issue with btw). I don't think this is whining as a victim as Slappy states. In fact, I agree with him/her that we need to address the problems of ORV use -- elimination of the activity therefore is a cop out when we are an intelligent society that ought to be able to work out the issues.

[Slappy]

Just for background, I rode dirtbikes for 8 or 10 years when I was younger and loved it. I'd probaby still be doing it if there were good places to ride nearby; love to get the kids out too. Just like many MXers these days also say, once the quads got popular, things went downhill. Trails turned into roads, wet spots started looking they'd been carpet bombed, yahoos were flying around blind corners left and right, riding spots got shut down.
Switched to mt bikes 16 or 17 years ago and have spent many many hours trying to keep those f'ing things from smashing their way down singletrack and turning it into another blown out horrorshow that's of no use to anyone else. I'm not hysterical or prejudiced - my experiences have convinced me that quads suck ass and have no business in multi use areas whatsoever. I'm willing to cut much more slack for 2 wheelers because I haven't personally experience anywhere near the same kind of negative impact from them. If the state can see fit to treat the two seperately (and they can as evidenced by Foxboro, etc) I can see that working in the larger forests, as long as there are some trails designated for strictly non-motorized use (and as long as those restrictions are followed, which again, my experience tells me is impossible to expect from ATVers). My opinion didn't appear out of nowhere based strictly on my own greed, though I will admit I'm protective of good singletrack, of which quads happen to be the mortal enemy.
:fat:

ps - I think you might be giving society too much credit when it comes to intelligence too.

[BG]

"ps - I think you might be giving society too much credit when it comes to intelligence too."


AH-FREAKING-MEN (the rest of what you said too)

[gixxerw]

Toe-toe when you are passionate about your hobby and beleifs is the only way sometimes. You guys do it why shouldn't we? Oh and good post's by all of you and any of you that want to try Dirtbikes i will gladly take you on my trails my bikes and my eqipment and i will show you the differance between quads and bikes even the damnage they have done on my trails.

[recum_MTB]

Ha Ha yes I question the intelligence of our society every day, but seriously you know what I mean. These issues ought to be able to be worked out and I thinks it's a cop out to say people are too stupid to make things work. It's not like the hard issues of genocide in Darfur and the middle east conflict. Oh, and I agree that the 4 wheel vs. 2 wheel debate is a big difference. I am talking about 2 wheel trailbikes. Quads I don't know what to do about. They clearly can't share trails meant to be single track. In the eastern part of the state, there are no longer any state forests that permit quads (with the closing of Georgetown-Rowley this year). I just wish the state would try to be attentive to the needs of all recreational groups and not single out any group.

[Mr_Cheeze]

How do you propose they do that? I don't see how you can simply group recreational quad users in with everybody else. They almost have to have their own playgrounds, separate from the rest. There simply is no room in the public parks in Eastern Mass. Too many shared users, not enough trails. Sorry, but they deserve to be the odd ones out. As a taxpayer in eastern mass, I only care that they keep them away from places where I ride. It's up to them to find their own solutions if going west isn't satisfactory. Don't buy the machines then. The State has no obligation to over-represent a particular group that cannot justify their need.

[noreaster]

I'm a hands-off kinda guy - live and let live - but I have real trouble with dirt bikes and ATVs on public shared lands. Because they have a major adverse impact upon on other shared-access users - I go to the forest for fresh air and silence. ATVs spew (un-environmentally regulated) exhaust and make a hell of a racket. If they made an electric one that was silent, I would be fine sharing the trails, if they didn't rip them up with all that horsepower.

Why would you want to bring all that noise into the woods? It's like bringing a boombox to a library, while chain-smoking.

People pay sales tax and registration on guns, too. But they're limited where they can be used in public as well.

I think what has to be considered is the overall benefit -- or lack of detriment -- of your hobby versus the rest of society: there are many hobbies that can coexist in public forests. ATVs and (sorry) dirtbikes IMO don't fit in -- they adversely effect other users -- much more than any other activity. You can say that some heavily hiked trails are just as bad, but that's 1000s of people creating the impact of just one quad.

You have to balance the needs of society. Just as I'm glad we have ordinances out lawing smoking indoors and public sound ordinances, I will continue to support restrictions on ATVs and dirtbikes that are loud, pollute and are erosive. Address these problems and I wouldn't oppose their usage on public lands. I just don't see that happening. So I think private lands would have to be the answer. Just like racetracks - you can't do that on public roads, either.

[recum_MTB]

Noreaster, I hear what you are saying but the bottom line is that ORV use brings a great deal of pleasure to many folks. And they are not permitted on all public lands, just a tiny number in fact. I just don't get worked about allowing ORV users to have certain areas to ride (I'm a dirt bike guy myself, not a quad guy). And I have no need to have all the public lands to myself to ride my MTB on. I just don't see it as being fair. Hence, my "I don't need to be greedy" comment above. Frankly, in the 20+ years I have ridden MTBs to this day I rarely see a dirt bike, so that issue seems like a small inconvenience to me if you do happen upon one at one of the few state forests that still permit them. Thus, I have never had my MTB experience tarnished (if you can call it that) by noise and exhaust from a dirt bike.

To balance the benefits and detriments of an activity rarley, IMHO, should mean the complete ban of the activity from public lands. Again, this generally comes from people who don't enjoy the hobby and therefore cannot identify with the benefits aspect of the analysis. They only see the detriments b/c they have no use for the hobby. I agree noise from ORVs is an issue but that's a simple one to rectify and change is occurring. You are certainly entitled to your opinion though. I suspect you do not know too many ORV users and have a negative view of them as a result. I suppose we are all victims of our experiences.

[recum_MTB]

BTW, there are a number of companies making electric dirt bikes. They look like a hybrid between a MTB and a true dirt bike and run approx. 45-60 minutes on a charge. I suspect that given their speed many folks will complain about them if they are permitted access to public lands. I might buy one to try at some point. They run about $7500 and look to be a great deal of fun.

[Mr_Cheeze]

To balance the benefits and detriments of an activity rarley, IMHO, should mean the complete ban of the activity from public lands. Again, this generally comes from people who don't enjoy the hobby and therefore cannot identify with the benefits aspect of the analysis.

Could you play devil's advocate for me and try to identify the benefit aspects of quad usage on multi-use public lands? You keep wanting to make this broad defense of ORV without separating the quad from the MX, but I think you have to. While dirt bikes have been around for a long time, quads haven't, unless you want to group in the MX trikes, which are rare these days. I don't think you can make a decent argument for more quad access on public land, especially in Eastern Mass, because for every one you might come up with, there are 10 counter arguments. I realize you want to be the nice guy and try and advocate fairness, but considering the problems associated with 4-wheeler usage, this fairness doctrine simply cannot be applied evenly.

Before you do try and play devils advocate, go back and take another look at the images that woodsguy posted. This is what they do. I don't see many benefits there except to excite the operator as they get their jollies kicking up mud, because, hey, what's the fun with riding a quad if you don't get messy.

[Slappy]

A little noise in some secluded woods isn't a big deal. Probably a different story if you live near a popular ORV spot where it's a constant though. I'd imagine it gets pretty annoying if you have to listen to it day after day at home, wouldn't you think? Does the ATV riders 'right' to a hobby trump the homeowners 'right' to some peace and quiet?

I'll agree with this statement - "the benefits and detriments of an activity rarley, IMHO, should mean the complete ban of the activity from public lands" but I'll also go ahead and say ATVs are a perfect example of the rare case that a ban is justified.

It all comes back to this:

http://www.nemba.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9890&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1177383321

[S2RT]

..... hey, what's the fun with riding a quad if you don't get messy.

Good point Cheeze. That is EXACTLY the image portrayed in every ATV manufacturer's television ad. Rider with a dung eatin grin, spraying trail debris in every direction as he power slides his fancy Yamahonduzuki across the screen. This is how marketers create product demand. Plant the seed with a slick ad, water it with "special interest financing", and watch it grow.

Hmm... maybe society should hold ATV mfrs responsible for the damages caused by their product...you know like we did with the tobacco companies.

S