The "I hate MXers" thread...

[Jisch]

I just have to post something about our ride at the Snip yesterday...

MXers have been part of the landscape at the Snip forever. When I was a kid my brother and I would load the MXers up in the truck and ride over there. It was a destination. Over the last 30 years, its been pretty much the same deal. NETRA runs a 100 motorcycle ride through there twice a year, which tears the place up like crazy, but I have always been amazed that the trails would be back in great shape within a month or so - no long term erosion that I recognized. At any other time of the year besides those two days of the year, motor vehicles are not allowed in the Snip, except on the dirt roads. Everything was good. Since there are so many dirt and fire roads at the Snip, the ATVs largely stayed off the singletrack. Good right?

All that changed about a year ago. I don't know why, but suddenly all the trails out there (save a few tucked away singletrack trails) are blown out. The ruts from the spring are deep and disgusting. Huge mud puddles where it was it was just moist before. I really don't know what to make of the whole thing. Luckily there is some good singletrack left out there, but I'm having a hard time getting past all that destruction... It is so far past a few work days its not even funny. I saw a couple of kids on MXers last night, but they whizzed by the trail entrance, probably didn't want me to see them go in.

The singletrack was all dry and rideable.

Stake out anyone?

John

[Jisch]

It seems the authorities have also noticed this. Someone posted up better info at MTBR. Apparently he ran into a DEP officer who relayed the following, I'll have this number programmed in my cell:

"the best thing to do is call the same tip-line as you would to turn in poachers ( 1 800 842 4357 ) when you see someone really abusing the trails".

Hopefully the increased attention will result in less abuse.

John

[Slappy]

Don't worry - I'm sure that the ORV groups will get a big turnout for the trail work days they have planned there. Free Busch Light for everyone!

:confused:

[Mr_Cheeze]

Maybe your complaints will be more constructive if you post them here:

http://www.nedirtbikes.com/content/

Oh, you'll get a lot of backlash, but there are good, reasonable guys in there who understand the big picture. Although, I don't suggest you title the thread as you have here.

[BigMac]

honestly I don't really think it will do any good....
you may have a couple who care but that will not amount to anything.

[Slappy]

If you posted it in the 'Environmental Law and Responsible Riding' subforum, it would double the number of topics there. :rolleyes:

I'm doubting anyone would even bother looking at it.

[Mr_Cheeze]

what good does it do here?

[Slappy]

About as much as talking about global warming, but maybe a little bit more even.

[xcslowpoke]

Okay, lets think about what we are saying:

MX/ATV's are riding on illegal trails. They didn't do this before, so why are the doing it now?

Simple answer: The number of locations to ride your MX or ATV has greatly diminished over the past two or three decades and the population continues to increase.

I grew up racing motorcycles and every place I road as a kid is now illegal. This forces people to drive further and further from their homes to ride a motorcycle. It also means more people riding on the same trails.

See a problem?

The bottom line is its an access issue. People start riding in areas where they are not suppose to as the access to areas gets closed. Regulations only work if opportunities exist to continue doing what you've always done someplace else. If that some place else is a major inconvience then the regulation doesn't work.

On a side note, don't we see people constantly protesting MTB's. Non-bikers are always saying, "why do they have to use the nice hiking paths when they can ride on the fireroad." Hmmmmm?

[Slappy]

Less people protest us than are happy with all the work we do from everything I see. That's the big difference. Motorized users today don't have enough participants that are willing to fix their messes - lots of people want to ride and rip **** up, but can't be bothered to do trail maintenance. That's the bottom line of why they have nowhere to ride. If the legal trails they had were kept up, they wouldn've been a lot less likely to have lost access in the first place. Just like @ Savoy last year.

Until they start showing they can be responsible, they're just gonna keep getting shut out. Good riddance to most of them I say, specially the f'ing quads.

[xcslowpoke]

I think if you really looked at the number of people that ride MTB's to the number that do trail work, the percentage of trail workers would be fairly low.

Every group has bad apples. There is someone out there that hates all MTBer because someone scared them when they were out on a nature walk.

I am not a fan of Quad either.

I have done a significant ammount of work in my life for both MTB and Motorcycle access. Built trails for both and watched them get distroyed by one group or another. Just remember when the general public gets rid of one group they target the next. Who do you think is next?

Someone mentioned on some post about MX/Quad's purchasing their own land. This is happening as they've been thrown out of public lands. Remember the title "Public Lands". As a person that has been around this all of my life (I'm 38 and started riding motorcycles and bicycles w/o training wheels in the same year - when I was 5), many of the arguments that MTBers use ring very true to what motorcyclist were saying 20 years ago.

All of this is the long and proper way of saying, "Don't forget when you point you finger at someone, there are 3 fingers pointing back at you."

Although everyone has to fall down prior to understanding that they are not the first to fall down.

[mtbtom]

On a side note, don't we see people constantly protesting MTB's. Non-bikers are always saying, "why do they have to use the nice hiking paths when they can ride on the fireroad." Hmmmmm?

Put it this way I've been riding mountain bikes for 14 years and there has never been more single track to ride than there is now. The reason for this is that mtb (unlike motorized use) is low impact and NEMBA does a ton of trail work to back it up.

Slappy is 100% right - For some strange reason the MXers and the quad riders around here seem to wanna tear the sh!t outta everything. There's not enough people riding to fix that mess.

[Slappy]

The percentage of mtbers doing work CAN be lower, because the damage done by bicycles is so much less than that done by motorized users. I'm pretty confident I've got facts and reason on my side, so peope can point at me all they want: I got a finger or two myself, and I ain't afraid to use 'em. :D

And remember, just because it's called 'public' land, it's thoroughly ridiculous to believe that gives one the right to do anything they want on it. I like building trails, would you say I should be able to go build wherever I want on 'public' land? Can I hold monster truck races on the town beach? Spray paint all the trees purple? Seriously though, that argument can be dismissed outright as far as I'm concerned. If what you're doing on public land is largely detrimental to the land and the experiences of other users, and you do very very little to mitigate these problems, you should lose your 'right' to do whatever it is you were doing (no matter how much you bitch and moan that paying fuel taxes for a few gallons a w/e should pay for legions of state workers to go out and fix the giant ruts and mudholes you made last weekend.)
:soapbox:

[GV_MTBiker]

I actually have met a few trail conscious MXer’s but no trail conscious Quaders. Most that I’ve seen go ripping by, fish tailing on purpose. You’ll watch them on ascents and they dig up the trail and kick up rocks. There’s and old railroad bed used as a bike/walking path. Part of is paved and motorized traffic isn’t allowed, but on the unpaved portions they are. The one good thing is that they’re so loud you can at least hear them as they coming flying down the trail at 30 mph. Most trails in my town are now doubletrack, there are still a couple untouched trails (hidden thankfully). I want to build new trails (land managers permitting) but I’m not sure if the work will be worth it if the new trails just get destroyed like the old ones.

[Jisch]

1) I've seen some of the MXers from a distance, they look like kids - who do not give a crap about trail work...

2) A close relative of mine is a quad rider. We had a bit of a dust up at Easter. His MO is to get the quietest quad he can find so he can go incognito. He isn't worried about getting caught, because he can outrun anything that comes after him (and has many times). He has no qualms about ripping crap up saying "the trails repair themselves in 20 years". I told him we should try that theory out. My point is that if this is the attitude, there's not much we're going to do to stop them. He complained about not having anywhere legal to ride, I suggested how foolish it was to spend $4K on a machine that can't be used legally (and then complain about it!).

3) There's a bit of a uproar over at MTBR about this, which is strange becuase the CT Board at MTBR is usually dead. So maybe we'll catch one/some of these guys in the act - who knows. I do know that NEMBA (or any group) doing trail maintenance at the Snip right now would be a complete waste of time unless you can get these guys to stop spinning their wheels.

4) Until last year, I had no problem sharing the trails at the Snip with MXers - ATVs have never been big there.

John

[Mr_Cheeze]

About as much as talking about global warming, but maybe a little bit more even.

Maybe I should have been more clear. My point is that this anti-ORV talk is mostly preaching to the converted here... at least until a hostile ATV'er or moto-x'er gets wind and comes over to troll or whine about how they were on the trails first, as has happened in the past.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no ATV forum in which to present this debate. I guess it's not surprising considering the mentality that is obviously prevalent in that group. But New England Dirt Bikes do have a forum that is at least somewhat populated by local trail users. Why not take the debate over there as well. Sure, there will be some hostility. I've certainly experienced it. And while there does seem to be a small break in the tensions betweenthe two groups here in SE Mass, I still question their commitment to policing their own trail abusers and helping to stop the ATV's from trespassing. I think that there is likely a certain kinship felt between the two user groups, and that ignorance is largely the rule when they see illegal usage.

[Jisch]

I put a post up (http://www.nedirtbikes.com/content/Rogue_riders_at_the_Snip/m_81266/tm.htm). I'll keep you guys updated on which direction this takes.

I'm taking the "let's work together to inform these rogue riders" approach. There are some good comments in this thread at NEMBA about preaching to the choir. Its probably the same situation at NETRA - the responsible users are the ones who are members of the organization. As I've said, the motorcycles have been at the Snip forever and I've never had a problem nor seen serious damage until about a year ago.

Text of my post:
I am not a motorcycle rider (though I was for many years in my youth - I even ran gas for my brother in NETRA events many moons ago), but I do enjoy skiing, hiking and mountain biking at Shenipsit Forest (AKA Soapstone).

I grew up and continue to live in the area and have always enjoyed the woods out there. I've ridden my mountain bike before, during and after the NETRA events at the Snip, which always seem well run. I'll admit that a few times after the events I've been a bit disappointed by the wear on the trails, but I'm always amazed at just how quickly the forest recovered and returned to its "normal" state. For the past 20 or so years I've been riding mountain bikes seriously out there, I've seen the motorcycles (both during the NETRA events and after) and never had a single problem either with the rider's demeanor or responsible use of the trail system.

All that has changed in the last 12 months or so. There appears to be a new group of people riding in the Snip who have little regard for trail conditions or responsible use. I rode there last week and the rutting and mud puddles are overwhelming. These riders seem intent on spinning their rear tire at every opportunity. Based on my previous experience with NETRA, I'm fairly certain this "new breed" rider is not part of your group.

I'm not looking to start a flame war here - I've seen plenty of those before - just asking for some help in at least letting these new users know that their behavior is irresponsible and will affect all of our ability to enjoy the forest. I can tell you that their presence has been noted not only by the mountain biking community (big deal) but also by the DEP.

My main concern is that the DEP will not be able to catch these users or stop their abuse, and will be left with no recourse but to shut down the forest (though even as I type that I wonder how you "shut down" a forest?). I'm sure you guys know the legality of riding the Snip, as do I, so I won't go into that here. That being said, based on past experience, the DEP is tolerant of responsible use, I'm not so sure about how they will react to what is going on now.

In closing - I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts for how we might work together to end this abuse. If you haven't been to the Snip in a while, I would suggest taking a hike and check out the fireroads, doubletrack and white trail. I'm sure you'll find it shocking. I would love to put together a trail maintenance program to fix some of the destruction, but unless these guys stop tearing stuff up, there's little sense in fixing anything.

Thanks and hope to see you on the trails!
John

[Mr_Cheeze]

Bum link.
This one works:
http://www.nedirtbikes.com/content/m_81266/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#81266

[Slappy]

Good post John, and agreed on the 'preaching to the choir' bit.

[hogboy]

:)

[gixxerw]

Actually he is preaching to the choir over at NEDB also. We deal with the same issues you guys have. There are idots in every group. Like the guys you have riding on closed trails in Vietnam good luck because like us you can't be there 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

[Jisch]

Actually he is preaching to the choir over at NEDB also. We deal with the same issues you guys have. There are idots in every group. Like the guys you have riding on closed trails in Vietnam good luck because like us you can't be there 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

In that post over at NEDB I was not expecting the kids who are tearing the place up to read what I posted. I was, however, hoping that some of the Rambler guys who might ride at the Snip could talk to them. I know its a long shot, but its really the only thing I could think to do. I have read that the DEP is perplexed by the situation as well, which can only lead to bad things for all of us forest users.

John (can't wait for someone to post another thread up here so I don't have to see the "I hate MXer" title anymore).

[gixxerw]

We have the same issue with quads at the F Gilbert hills they have trashed the place, it is locals who ride there but all we can do is talk to them and report them they stay out for a while until the heat is off then right back at it. Laws/rules only work for law/rule abiding citizens.

[Mr_Cheeze]

It's great to know that some of you Mx'ers feel this way, gixxerw, but can you honestly say that most of the people riding legally over in Franklin are worried about ATV's? How do you spread the word amongst the non-club (KPTR, NETRA, NEMBA) recreationalists? Because I thnk if you can do that, it makes it easier to stem the tide of perpetrators in any regard.

Has anybody given any thought to perhaps creating some type of flyer to place on the windshields of vehicles parked in the state forest lots?

[Jisch]

I did some market research and this has proven to be the best wording to get the point across.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/atvSIGN.jpg

[gixxerw]

Problem like i said they are locals as in ride from their garage to the forest and most of them live in wrentham. Yes we have issues between 2 wheels and 4 wheels and lets leave it at that sore subject matter if it wasn't for quads being developed i am quite sure we would still be able to ride in almost all state forests like we had in the 70's and 80's.
As far as getting the word out to non club memebers it comes down to earlier statement only law abiding citizens abide by the law.

[gixxerw]

http://www.nedirtbikes.com/content/m_81121/mpage_1/tm.htm
You wonder why most of us get irritated when it is brought up about access to forests. Now you guys will have Georgetown/Rowley to yourselves too until the neighbors say you ride to fast and are endangering their kids because you can't hear them coming.

[Slappy]

If quads were out of the picture, I'd be 1000 times more open sharing trails with motorized users. Actually, make that 100,000x.

[gixxerw]

MTB's and Diritbikers have alot in common we both like tight (31" wide) single track with good obstacles we enjoy up hills more then down hills where as you guys enjoy down hills more we stand up to ride where you guys sit. But the big one is both our groups hate quads they have their place though trail maintenance for one and yard work for another and hauling out game after hunting other then that they serve no purpose.

[Slappy]

31" isn't tight.
1/2 that is more like it. :D

[Mr_Cheeze]

Problem like i said they are locals as in ride from their garage to the forest and most of them live in wrentham. Yes we have issues between 2 wheels and 4 wheels and lets leave it at that sore subject matter if it wasn't for quads being developed i am quite sure we would still be able to ride in almost all state forests like we had in the 70's and 80's.
As far as getting the word out to non club memebers it comes down to earlier statement only law abiding citizens abide by the law.

I'm not suggesting soliciting the actual offending quad riders with fliers. What a waste of time that would be. I don't know the actual ratio, but my guess is that club members comprise a relative minority of legal users of any given state forest. How might the word get spread to the less informed majority? I don't know, but maybe fliers is one possible way. Then again, that might just result in litter, but I think it's a worthy risk if you're talking about informing Joe Schmo that this forest that he/she takes for granted is in jeopardy of closure if folks aren't active enough in helping to not just informing authorities of illegal activity, but in respecting the trails by refraining from the type of rear-wheel spinning, mud churning, off-trail blazing, and spring thaw riding offenses that spur hostility. This goes just as strongly for the mountain bikers, who easily outnumber the motorized groups in the places where I like to ride the most. We all know that there are people riding Foxboro right now, without an iota of concern for the damage they are contributing to all because they have that itch.

Ignorance. How do you combat that?

[gixxerw]

NETRA is a basically a racing sanctioning body that also works on political issues. Now each state forest i have been too has signs at the begining stating what is legal and what is not the rules are printed in plain english so getting to my point the only way to stop people is to catch them red handed if they ride there illegally now whats going to stop them when it is shut down? It is a dilema that both our groups seem to be fighting like in the thread about the middlesex/fells area over here. The only way i see us stopping any illegal riding is a 24hr 7 day a week presence by the DEM/EPO/ELE but we know that isn't going to happen because they want to close the areas to us (MTB/Dirtbike) because someone with more clout thinks we are both evil. Best way is education and a good thump on the head from a bat to get the message thru i have stopped many a quad on my property 20 acres thank you and in franklin, see on my property i usually have a back up leaning against a tree and i tell them i will post it and call the cops most have been nice some i have chased down on my bike then made it clear. Franklin is another story i get screw you aren't the police so it is an uphill battle.

[gixxerw]

31" isn't tight.
1/2 that is more like it. :D
Well ok then 31" is the width of my bars but i also have a pair of 28" bars for those special occasions.

[Slappy]

Well ok then 31" is the width of my bars but i also have a pair of 28" bars for those special occasions.

ahh...I was thinking tread width...running about 28" bars myself...

[gixxerw]

See if i didn't have to fit bars i would fit on 6" at most. Thats how i built my trails at my property bar width and the trail head blockages big rocks are foot peg width to keep out the quads.

[bikerdom]

MTBer's don't have much in common with Motorcyclist other than two wheels. How can anyone compare something that "spews" noxious fumes, uses fossil fuels and the only pedal is the brake to a bicycle. Mountain bikers are the motors that turn the wheels and that alone does distinguish us from the motorsport crowd. Bicycling is about a healthy, rugged lifestyle. Motorsport users can't boast that.
So asking people that can only travel with a motor rumbling between their legs to help with trail work doesn't make any sense. They wreck things faster than you can fix them. I was once a MX racer/rider in the seventies(yes I'm an old fart knocker) but I changed when I realized that population growth and fossil fuel burning vehicles don't add up to anything healthy. And what is it with ATV's? They are truely the "bottom feeders" of the motorsport crowd. 50% of the time I see one there is some poor overweight slob riding it with a bad case of "plumbers butt crack" showing. They've trashed the trails in Milton, Farmington, Alton, New Durham in the short time that they've been allowed to use the trail systems up here. It seems that the snowmobile clubs have started allowing them on their trails and have wrecked them for any other users. I'm tired of them and you should be to. Enough of this talk about bicyclist and dirtbikers having things in common.

[gixxerw]

I had written a very nice worded response to your post but if you can't see the similarities at your age if you actually rode a dirt bike in the 70's you won't understand. As far as the fossil fuel thing unless you are driving an electric car or heat your house with only solar or have a composting toilet get over your self you are about as green as al gore claims to be.

[bikerdom]

I do understand. My car isn't a vehicle for recreactional use. It's about transportation in and on this infrastructure that we've built around us. It's not about a pass time that encourages wasting fuels and making pollution in the woods or on lakes or snow. About being green, well...I can only be as green as society allows.

[gixxerw]

society sells electric cars, society has windmills, solar power, energy cells you could be as green as you preach. I enjoy my recreation one way you enjoy yours your way. Another question do you play golf? if so that is another evil pesticides, large tracts of land set aside for nothing but driving gas or electric golf carts on.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Dom, this is the type of divisive attitude is what we want to avoid. Conflict with other legal users of the trails does nothing for our own cause and ends up hurting the forest in the end. Take Foxboro for example. SE Mass Nemba had admittedly taken a hands-in-the-air stance in recent years because a) frustration over trail degradation on a scale seemingly faster than efforts to preserve them and b) open hostility by both parties. As long as they have the right to ride in a given forest, we're much better off working with them in helping to maintain. I think that closing more trails to MX'ers only increases hostilities and illegal trail usage, not to mention putting a brighter light on the mountain biking community when you no longer have other parties with which to share the blame for trail erosion, because if you are going to be honest about it, the mountain bikers do, in fact, cause significant erosion in their own right. Those guys know how much damage is done by motorized bikes. Working with them is the best way to keep any efforts to help protect the trails as much as possible at an optimal level. Look at it as each party keeping the other honest. And by working together we can have a louder voice in any fights against legislation that threatens to hurt all of us.

[gixxerw]

Well said if we worked together we could have places like Vietnam all over NE imagine NEMBA/NETRA joining forces in NE to open up MTB/Dirtbike only parks that keeps out people that would complain about our activities. How great would it be to go somewhere you don't have to worry about who is watching, who is spending the hard earned money you spend on a sport as in registration fees trail fees where it gets put right back into the trails you use instead of going towards someones escalade in the state house.

[bikerdom]

Well I'm going to make this simple. When a bicycle goes by you what do you smell? Nothing or maybe sweat. Now what does a motorized vehicle smell like when it passes? Now the tree canopy's trap this exhaust so trail users trying to enjoy fresh air now have the same pollution they get out on the highway. Pretty simple. I don't plan on sharing trails with the motorsport crowd and I try to only ride trails that I don't have these problems on.

[gixxerw]

Dom do you complain about horse droppings on your trails too? Or is that organic enough for you to clean off your tires?

[recum_MTB]

I am pleased to see this discourse between the two user groups. I would like to see folks trying to be part of a solution rather than further divisiveness and discontent. When it comes to environmental issues, ORV use is the least of our problems. Not to say ORV use is not worth managing, but certainly in the grand scheme of things I worry more about our society's mass consumption of resources in a multitude of other areas, including home energy consumption (gas, oil, water, electricity), the consumption of other consumables (plastics, paper to name a few) and, of course, our insatiable appetite to develop every remaining parcel of land we can get our hands on. Recreational ORV consumption is a tiny concern compared to the larger issues that face us as a society. Does that mean we ignore it? Of course not. But let's not miss the forest for the trees (pun intended). Again, not to dismiss ORV fossil fuel consumption, but frankly when I get up in the morning I worry more about how much water I am drawing from my aquifer, the efficiency of my furnace, the gas mileage of my car and how much trash my family accumulates in a week. I also worry about the explosive population growth in the US, which ultimately is the root of all of our problems.

Our society is bass ackwards. Many folks worry about the minutia because they feel helpless to change the real issues that are destroying the world we live in. I can understand why it's easy to head in that direction, but we need to refocus. By doing so, a lot more of our "optional" recreational activities would have much less of a noticable impact on our environment.

Sorry for the rant.

[biffster]

All I know is that we have a huge ATV problem in Connecticut. I see dirt bike marks on the trails but ATV marks are 10 time more noticeable and it seems they are causing most of the damage.

The Middlesex trails in Middletown were created by dirt bikers over 30 years ago before MTB's were even invented. They co-existed peacfully there through the 90's until the ATV boom has destroyed a lot ot the trails in there and made many unrideable.

I hope they pass the ATV bill going through the legislature. This will force atv's to register their machines and give ATVer's three riding areas. It will also secure funds for us to repair ATV damage and step up illegal riding enforcement.

The only thing I would like to see in the bill is a penality of impound or forfeiture of your ATV for illegally riding on public lands. The ATV crowd always say they're "responsible" and it's just a few bad apples ruining it for them. Fine then let's get rid of the bad apples. If people had the reality thrown in their face that they could lose their $5000 rig or get a fine equal to half the value of their machine, they might think twice before they tresspass. The ATV community shouldn't have a problem with this because they condone illegal riding right?

[noreaster]

I hope that Connecticut bill passes, too. Does it provide any environmental restrictions on the ATVs?

I feel for the dirtbike community who pioneered some of the trails mtbers ride today, but unfortunately, IMO, it's time for evolution to hit ATVs and dirtbikes: unless you get electric motors, and and can control your trail-ripping power, it's time to go. We used to allow smoking everywhere, and now you can hardly smoke anywhere, because we now understand just how bad it is for society.

Our air is dirty, our climate is conclusively being changed by humans, we starting wars over oil, and we're all fat. Dirtbikers and ATVs turning to mountain bikes can address all of these concerns.

Again, my philosophy is live and let live - unless you adversely effect others. It's time to realize that dirtbikes, ATVs (and frankly, any unregulated petro-powered engines) are bad for society. Not as bad as coal-fired power plants, or Hummers, or smoking, but they're bad enough to address. Mountain bikes are good for society in all the ways MX/ATVs are bad, and mtb erosion is no worse than hiking or horses, is addressable. (For the record, I feel the same about recreational snowmobiles and jetskis.)

My suggestion: I think the first step is environmental regulation on emissions of all petro-engines. Second step is to limit motorized access to a limited number of places. I'm reluctant to completely outlaw the sports, but hopefully social pressures would reduce it (like smoking), and outreach to these communities could help convert their participants to less destructive hobbies. I'm happy you're not on the couch, but I think you have to take personal responsibility for your impact on society and the planet we all have to share.

[Jisch]

We rode at the Snip yesterday, I saw no recent tire prints from them. Maybe the DEP caught someone, or maybe the kiddies got tired of their bikes. The irony of the whole thing is that if someone were to walk through the Snip today, they'd see the MTB tire tracks and probably assume that all the erosion was due to MTBs. Only someone who has been watching for the last five years would know the truth.

Oh well, we'll see how this plays out.

We also saw two MXers at Middlesex last week, they appeared to be adults, but had no problem spinning their tires at will. I really think there's a responsible way to ride a motorcycle through the woods - I just don't see anyone riding that way. Its the first time I've ever seen MXers or evidence of MXers out there.

John

[gixxerw]

Noreaster, let me get this straight you cut your grass with scissors, you drive an electric car to work or better yet ride your MTB, the building you work in has no AC and they run their lights on wind mill power along with your house and your saying the all powerful MTB will stop wars now? Saying ATV's/Dirtbikes have no place in society? alot of people think your hobby has no place also same with horse back riding, bowling, nascar, F1, go kart racing, drag racing, hockey, baseball, football, rugby, bungee jumping, skydiving, base jumping. There are alot of hobbies no one has to do but they love to do.

[noreaster]

cut your grass with scissors, you drive an electric car to work or better yet ride your MTB, the building you work in has no AC and they run their lights on wind mill power along with your house and your saying the all powerful MTB will stop wars now?

You don't get it, do you? Everything you listed is not recreation. Riding a dirtbike is recreation. It is optional. But, hell, I'll play along: I don't have grass to cut (if I did, I certainly would use a non-motorized rolling lawn clipper, or if I had a lot, an electric mower. In fact, when stumbled on a website that sold them, I bookmarked it for the future).

I commuted by bike, bus and subway for the past four years, and when I recently got a job that was not accessible by any of these means, I bought the most efficient small car I could afford that fit my criteria. Sadly, I could not buy a diesel to run biodiesel, which is what I heat my house with, and hybrids were a couple grand above my price range.

The building I work in is outside of my control, but I started a recycling program at my office, and I personally deliver carloads of recycling to the transfer station on my own time. Once a week I work from home, so I save the gas I'd otherwise have to burn.

And yes, wars are almost always fought over resources. So if we use our resources as frugally as possible, e.g. not for recreation and things that can easily done with electricity, then we can reduce conflict. When we become energy independent, maybe our National Guard could actually stay stateside, and Guard the Nation against natural disasters (and the rare invasion). Right now in Kansas, their National Guard is in Iraq, so they're having trouble in that town that was flatted by the F5 tornado. New Orleans was patrolled by private security groups (eg mercenaries) and couldn't use all of Louisiana's equipment, because much of it was in Iraq. Can't you see, there is a real impact from your activities! 10 out of 10 scientists agree that you're polluting our planet with your dirtbike and that a small island country in the pacific (Kiribati) is already losing land to the ocean and soon will be underwater… and you're lying to yourself if you don't think you're contributing.

And once again, you're fighting arguments I didn't make: your laundry list of hobbies is nice, but I wrote above: if your MX was electric and didn't rip up the trails, I could care less. But it isn't and I do care. It negatively effects everyone, even the riders themselves!

If you're on an MTB board, I assume you have a MTB. Why can't you just kick the oil habit, and help out a little? Just ride your damn bike. I'm far from perfect, and there's more I can do, but at least I'm making an effort.

[bikerdom]

Well said. People need to figure out the difference between wants and needs and what their wants will do to the environment for a temporary "rush" of excitement and adrenaline. And no gixxerw I'm not a golfer as you assume and horse poop bothers me but it's only grass & hay in the poop so I get over it quick.

[hogboy]

to noreaster...


check your sig. take bike rack off car save some percentage.


how about this ? don't buy a bike rack. learn to take the wheels off your bike and shove it in your car. saves the environment. do you know how much energy and resources are wasted making bike racks ? are you doing what you can ?


all this arguing in the thread is getting funny. there is only one method that will work across the board for everyone all the time:

1) follow local ordinances and laws regarding trail use
2) report known abuse to the authorities when you see it, and let the system take care of abusers
3) work to change your local or state laws if you feel they don't work for the environment, and work with the lawmakers


if you stay within those parameters, you will make progress, and that is the only way to make progress. ask Nemba how much gets done when you do it correctly and talk to the right people.

if you keep arguing on the intertubes, all you do is make comedy

sure, arguing here can rile people up and get people motivated, but by now, this thread is pretty much junk

[noreaster]

how about this ? don't buy a bike rack. learn to take the wheels off your bike and shove it in your car. saves the environment.

Well, actually, that's exactly what I do do, thanks for asking. But not everyone has a hatch and fold-down seats, so most people on this board have a rack. I see probably 20 empty racks on top of cars daily. I'm trying to do every little bit I can. I can't make you do it, but I can make you aware. Education is the key to moving society forward.

[Slappy]

I have a ride-on mower and a Suburban w/ roof racks and don't give a damn about Kiribati. I'd probably be riding a dirt bike still if there was enough room around here to do it. I wouldn't ride a quad because they're lame, but I don't really care if a million of them rip around the big open spaces say in the southwest deserts every weekend as long as they don't trash the trails I ride.


Ahh...life is simple when your selfish...:D

[gixxerw]

So an electric MX bike? They have them you know where do you think the elctricity comes from to charge them? Gas, Coal, hydrodynamic? Around here i would mostly say natural gas.
Yes i do ride a mountain bike i prefer my dirt bike but i occasionally get out on the mountain bike to scout new trails. My point earlier was that everyone has a hobby live and let live. Wants and needs are different if you wanted you could stay home and not drive to trails at all with your bike stuffed inside your car that would save even more gas for you/us.
The people who say they are the greenest are like the people who say they are the most religious they all have a secret to hide have something they feel guilty for and they all say do as i say not as i do.

[Mr_Cheeze]

The people who say they are the greenest are like the people who say they are the most religious they all have a secret to hide have something they feel guilty for and they all say do as i say not as i do.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Al_Gore_preaching.jpeg

HERE HERE!!

[noreaster]

The people who say they are the greenest are like the people who say they are the most religious they all have a secret to hide have something they feel guilty for and they all say do as i say not as i do.

Whatever lets you sleep at night, I suppose. But don't project your inner troubles on others.

[biffster]

Ah yes, another MTB/dirtbike flame war. Here we go again.

I have no problems giving dirtbikes/ATV's legal places to ride as long as we toughen up the penalties for the illegal riders. Every state should have three or four easily accessible areas to ride so someone has a riding area close by to them.

What do you do with the unregstered/illegal riders when they're caught? You take their bikes away and fine them half the book value of the bike to get it back plus reg fees. The money will go for trail maintence and more enforcement. The unclaimed bikes/ATV's can be sold as well for more enforcement/trail dollars.

The ATV community says it wants legal places to ride and denounces illegal riding. I think legislation like this will put a huge dent in the illegal riding when the penalty is losing your machine. I say give them the land and have them put thier money where their mouth is.

[Mr_Cheeze]

If it were only that easy, Biffster. How do you convince the legislature, a body that has been trending towards reducing access, that more land is needed. That means they would need to hire more state employees, including rangers, a position already in short supply. Even the prospect of toughening enforcement of present laws is difficult with so few environmental police in positions to be able to do that. I don't see the lawmakers and the governor doing anything to change that real soon. It's way down on the docket.

[gixxerw]

Again that is a good idea, but as stated there would need to be someone patrolling 24/7 365 a year. Most dirtbikes stop at dark quads don't! But on the same token any illegal riding whether it be ORV/MTB/equestrian should have the same fine because tresspassing is just as illegal as riding with out registration. Did you know all the powerlines in new england are illegal for anyone to ride on with out the permission of the land owner and yes they are all owned privately the power companies only have an easement so any time you guys hit the lines you are riding illegally also unless you have the written permission of the owner.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I wonder what the law is regarding old railroad beds. There's one in particular that I know of that goes from Taunton and stretches north for I don't know how long. The police do nothing to stop the quads from riding this trail. In fact, I know of a couple of areas where they park right on the side of the road with their trailers to access the trail, and the police do nothing. Sometimes there are half a dozen vehicles. It doesn't bother me at all, but I wonder if this is legal because it's federal property. I can imagine that the neighbors abutting this railroad bed are none too pleased about the noise and dust clouds. But wouldn't you think that the local police would at least have jurisdiction where the parking vehicles are concerned?

Look, it doesn't bother me so much where federal land is concerned. I'm just wondering where legality and jurisdiction gets sorted out.