Opinions sought -- Gas or Oil?

[off piste]

Well, my heating system was given the Kiss of Death a few weeks ago during the annual. I was expecting it since I bought the place, so it's no major shock, being the current sustem is a 25+ year old Weil McLean oil fired boiler and the o-rings on the 3 peice boiler are starting to give way.

I have the opportunity to stay with oil or switch to gas, as there's gas service here. I shut it off last year because the only use for it was for cooking, and I replaced the gas stove with an electric when I upgraded the electric service.

I figure this is a good way to do my part for conservation, so for oil, I'm currently looking at http://www.energykinetics.com/ for oil. I also can take advantage of the Keyspan offer to switch over and save quite a bit on the boiler and tank removal costs, and the appealing thing about gas is the lower emmissions and the fact that the supply is still mostly domestic, so I could hold my middle finger up to OPEC in a way.

Anybody have any thoughts on one vs the other?

[BG]

Only one way. GAS BABY. Then you'll be set up for hydrogen!

Cleaner, easier, more room for bike parts, no smelly oil smell, no need for free Venezuelan oil, did i say more room for bike parts? Need gas water heater and stove too...outside grill?? Emergency generator...

[off piste]

Thank Bob

I forgot to mention -- the system now is a tankless coil for hot water. Both the System 2000 and high efficiency gas systems would utilize an indirect hot water tank system, so no additional system for water.

[peterdbikes]

I assume you have a Natural Gas service line. Remember propane gas is diferent (gas grill) and is usually in an above or below ground level tank.

Natural Gas is the way to go. Generally cleaner and more efficient. Most diehard cooks prefer gas stoves.

If you go gas, I would also check into the on demand gas hot water heaters. Then your furnace would only need to run for heat. I have a oil, forced hot water system. Its constantly cycling on ond off all year because of the hot water.

[off piste]

Yes, there's a natural gas line here. As mentioned, I shut it off last year because it was only for the stove and I didn't like paying the $18/mo "service charge" to use about $10/mo worth of gas to cook with, so I went electric.

The indirect tank would take care of the cycling, oil or gas. In that system, a heat exchanger runs from the boiler into a very high efficiency water tank, so you essientially have an on demand system. As with your, my boiler is currently cycling constantly all year long to maintain the boiler at 200F so the "on demand" coil will be ready to supply hot water, even when the house is empty.

[S2RT]

After cooking with both, I'd gladly pay the extra charge, even if all I had gas for was the stove.

[Jisch]

I was in the same situation at my first house about 15 years ago (gawd I can't believe it was that long ago!). At the time the gas company had a program where they'd have a contractor come and take out your oil tank for free. Of course once your oil tank is gone its less likely that you'd go back to oil. They also were offering some kind of rebate on top of the oil tank removal. I converted to gas.

The new gas fired furnace was way more efficient than the 35 year old oil one, so I immediately noticed a difference in my heating bills. However, you should keep in mind that there's only one gas line into your house - i.e. no competition. Even though the gas price was regulated, a few months after we got the new furnace the state approved a huge increase for gas prices. I never did a side by side comparison, but I really felt like I would have done better getting a high efficiency oil furnace.

My dad put one of those System 2000's in a few years ago, he loves it.

About 5 years ago we were considering building a new house and looked pretty hard at geothermal. A lot of pluses and minuses there... I'd need to talk to someone who had been running one of those systems long term before I'd decide on that.

John

[off piste]

Thanks John

Yeah, the monopoly angle is bothering me a bit, but it seems like all the oil companies are within a few cents of each other as well. Geothermal is of course appealing, but the initial cost is scary, so I think I'd roll it into the cost od a new construction vs. replacing what I have now. There's also another alternative I looked at, the multi-fuel, coal/wood/gas/oil boilers, but the cost again was scary.

[catbbq]

While gas is way better for the cooking experience, it is less efficient (about 40% compared to 70% for electric if I remember the numbers).

If you did consider propane, you wouldn't have to worry about the monopoly aspect. You do have to be careful with the supplier though. We just moved into our house back at the end of August. I had a delivery shortly after of propane that was $600. Since I didn't really pay attention to how much was in the tank when we arrived, I didn't think much of it.

Got the second delivery on Jan 8. This time it was $950. Again, I didn't think too much of it not really doing any math. Several months in the house during the winter, $950 didn't seem so bad.

Got the third delivery on Feb 8. $850. Now that didn't make sense at all. Didn't I just have a delivery for $950? I looked at the bill alittle closer. They were charging me $3.15 a gallon!

I did some research and found the average in NH was $2.40 a gallon. Call them (Diefeo) up and asked WTF? They immediately dropped the price to $2.40 but wouldn't make it retroactive. Called the good people at Eastern who offered it at $1.90. We made the switch. Unfortunately it cost me probably about $700 to learn the lesson.

Propane price is based on usage. The more you use, the less it costs. The Eastern guy said that $3.15 a gallon, we should be using less than 250 gallons a year. My last delivery was 271 gallons.

[off piste]

Lots of good info so far, thanks everyone! I've got to say, the answers are matching those when I posted this on other boards. Everyone seems to like gas, and that's the direction I'm leaning right now.

[C.P.]

Another vote for natural gas.

Let's not forget the simple fact that anything with oil needs 2 things that you'll not have to worry about with gas:
1. maintenance, usually 1X a year. Oil burner efficiency is tough to rate too, b/c as nozzle, etc get's fouled, efficiency drops, whereas, a gas system has a flat energy rating - IE it's the same from day one to day 10000.
2. you have to store your fuel (oil tank) on site, and thus always be hunting for a "deal" on fuel, and making sure you DONT run out (something I dont miss at all).

As far as getting a good deal goes, my experience is, I dont miss having to be aware of that anymore. If you think you're getting raked by the gas co., and want to do something about it, you're much better off looking at simple control changes - programmable stat, adding insulation, etc. In the end, I think the two are very comparable, and the nat gas option ends up being worth it, ( since we can somewhat address those price spikes with wood stove)

Currently, for heating needs, I'm running a gas fired boiler for hot water baseboard, and zoned the house to three separate zones, for finer control of energy use (three separate programmable stat's with separate occupancy periods) - house aint huge either...just under 1800sf. I also supplement (heavily) with wood stove.

Hot water is handled by 3 roof mounted Solar panels, which go to a tank mounted exchanger. Hot water heating is practically free in summer months, and the solar system usually makes 80 degree water in the winter. Remaining hot water heating is performed by a wall mounted tankless (gas fired) unit.

The next phase is to add more insulation (this spring) (best bang for energy buck savings) - and for the future I hope to be shopping a grid tied solar system...

[kernel crash]

I never liked the smell of an oil burner in a home. Never had one but when I was looking for a house a few years back, that was the first thing you smelled when you walked in. It rendered the basement useless in my opinion. Of course with gas you have the occasional gas leaks and the little flare ups that may follow.

[TheHare]

Of course with gas you have the occasional gas leaks and the little flare ups that may follow.

That's what my Pop always preached: "You never see an oil heated home blowup". Not that it happens that often, but just once will wreck your week. Plus, I didn't like the one-line-in monopoly. I went with base board-oil and an indirect water tank. Doesn't run much in the non-heating months. As far as smell, with the newer systems, I don't think you get any (I don't). Just for a couple days, every other year, following the cleaning. jm2cents

[off piste]

Well, I got the Keyspan estimate. Suddenly, that $599 boiler and $325 tank removal turned into a total of $7000 when the Keyspan approved contractor came and gave me the total estimate for the job. Since I can't see the value of $6K+ added onto their "offer" for 1 days work for installation, I'm just going to stay with oil, as they have given me zero incentive to switch over.

[C.P.]

7k!! Wholly ripoff! Something sounds fishy...

[catbbq]

Holy cow!

Is that the cost of installing the buried gas line to your house? I can see that costing something, but not $6k.

You might consider propane if you don't mind the tank sitting in your yard. All the benefits of oil (picking your supplier, owning what you've bought) and gas (clean burning, gas cook top, smore's in the kitchen).

Then again, how hard could installing a gas burner be? Maybe some of the boys should just come over, bring a favorite tool, and get after it.

[off piste]

No, I have a gas line, that's shut off. So the $6K is only explainable as the cost of labor and ancillary parts needed for the install. So, basically, Keyspan gives you about a $3K rebate on the cost of a boiler and sells it to you for $599, and then the contractor takes back any benefit with hyper-inflated prices.

[C.P.]

I'm pretty sure any heating contractor can do the work as long as they meet the requirements on the rebate form (which pretty much means any licensed contractor should be able to do it), not one they've asked you to use, I would double check on this. Also, the price the contractor quotes is still negotiable, so dont hesitate to try for lower. Basically, as long as the guidelines are met on the program form (see this (http://www.keyspanenergy.com/docs/psbusiness/CandI_HEHEform600340.pdf) or this (http://www.gasnetworks.com/efficiency/pdf/GN_Rebate_Brochure.pdf)) you will get your rebate cash.

[BillE]

That price is ridiculous. Check around for other contractors in your area that install furnaces. Last year we decided to replace our furnace because it was about 25 years old. We also decided to have central air installed at the same time. The price we paid was $7000. We had pricing as high as $12000. Any licensed contractor should be able to get any rebates from the utility as long as the nessasary permits are pulled from your town.

[heckler]

We made the decision when we bought our house and got rid of the oil. We are paying more for gas right now curtesy of the idiots at Keyspan but we are still happy. We run a gas stove and a gas dryer both of which save over electric.

Not having that truck pull up every other month to remind you that winter is here? Priceless!

You hear about houses turning into kindling wood because of gas leaks and yes, it does happen but I know many many people who had their oil burners "burp" costing them many thousands of dollars (mosty covered by the insurance) and many headaches getting the entire house repainted and EVERYTHING washed. Don't know of anybody who lost their house to gas.

[off piste]

I've given up on the gas option. I've determined that Keyspan's big "discount" is simply the rebate amount they'll give you for the boiler, made to look like it's what you're paying for the boiler, hense the $7K total price, which is more than it'll cost me to install a new oil system. Plus, it's next to impossible to get any answers from them regarding this "promotion" in the first place.

[C.P.]

Oh, another thing that I remember about oil burning (vs gas) is that by NFPA code (211?) an oil burner chimney must be inspected & cleaned, b/c by products of oil combustion can soot a chimney (usually from lack of burner maintenance - another thing a gas burner doesn't need) But, usually a chimney that's got an oil burner under it is usually not a big problem in most cases, but something to be aware of...

OffPiste - good luck with the new install...

[off piste]

I've never been told I must get the chimney cleaned according to code, but it does seem like a good idea. What I was told, and was another reason to avoid gas, was that I'd need a chimney liner according to code if the burner wasn't above a certain efficiency rating, and that would cost me about $1500. If I went with the high efficiency unit, no chimney liner (or chimney) was needed, but I'd be paying for the stainless steel exhaust system then.

[noreaster]

We have oil heat, thanks to the previous owners. Our three-owner house (condos) also has Gas, which heats the top two residences, and from which we all cook. The upside is that we heat with a biofuel, which costs only couple cents more, pollutes less, contributes less to foreign dependence and has better detergent qualities which keeps the burner burning more efficiently.

Our house also has a gas line, so if our burner died completely (it just died a little and we had to repair it to the tune of $500 - of course that happened when it was 15° out) we'd consider going gas, just for the convenience... i mean we're already paying a gas bill, and we'd have no chance of running out.

I like cooking on the gas stove, heats faster than electric, but I really dislike the performance of our gas oven. It has to have a big vent (so gas doesn't pool up and blow us to kingdom-come) and that's not so good for heating up fast.

If we were building our own house (hope to someday) I'd go ALL electric, for heat (I'd have a small wood stove as a back up in case of extended outages) and for cooking. Then I'd look to add solar panels and geothermal pipes for hot water and heating assistance.

[mcd]

the energy kinetics sounds pretty good, i've had people advise me to add the hot water tank to my tankless boiler system as a good way to get more efficiency and use lest oil. i'm curious about the system cost? have you gotten any quotes on that system?

[off piste]

The System 2000 was $7500. The conventional system was $4800, and the indirect 40 gallon tank option was $1300.