Trail signage thread

[radair]

I'm trying to find a few options for trail signs. I'm aware of http://www.vosssigns.com/, but would like to assemble a list of other options.

I think places like Kingdom Trails are so popular because anyone can go there and do any length ride with a map. I know many places in New England have no signs and are a nightmare to navigate if you don't know your way around, like here in the White Mtns.

The best map/signage system I've seen is on the Dale Ball Trails in Santa Fe, NM. They have numbered intersections and a small labeled trail map at each number. Super easy to get around, and not obtrusive. I'll try to get some pics.

VLMC, where did those signs in Vietnam come from? Those are quite nice.

[C.P.]

Hey Radair,

I dont have any commercial options off hand. Vos might have a source. Having made signs for Borderland, (and subsequently seen vandelism of them and other signs in the park) I can offer some suggestions for signs that both appeal to good function (I like the numbered intersections and a map key), and that are more vandal proof.

I like the look of the signs you mention used in Dale Ball.(shown below)
http://www.sdcmountainworks.com/image/photos/daleball3.jpg
Lots of good info on the sign for sure, and not too obtrusive (for a sign).

I would maybe only add GPS coordinates to each sign, so they are useful for rescue type situations (something Borderland is going to implement in new signage moving forward).

Vandal proof ideas include one that Borderland (and other State park signs use). They drill a couple of holes (90 deg apart) through the post (if you sink 4 feet worth of post into the ground, drill the hole so it's 3 feet down). They then insert a couple 3 to 4 foot long peices of thick REBAR through the post, so it's centered. It involves a hell of a lot more digging & tamping to install the sign, but vandals have a MUCH harder time when they attempt to lift the post, only to have their own weight holding it in the ground. We were told about this method by the Land Manager at Borderland after vandals lifted a sign we made, and threw it way into the woods (kids probably).

good luck.

[Husqvarna]

Rob, try Jack Chapman with FOMBA, he works for Classic Signs. I don't have his email available, but you can reach him through www.fomba.com

[digger]

I pulled this list off of mtbr save the trails forum:
Voss Signs - www.vosssigns.com
RhinoMarkers.com - www.rhinomarkers.com
Interpretive Graphics - www.interpretivegraphics.com
Polydura Signs - www.polydura.com?trail
Pannier Graphics - www.panniergraphics.com
http://stores.ebay.com/manofmountains
http://www.scenicsigns.com/

I got some aluminum 4x4 trail markers from Quality Nameplate http://www.qnp.com - nice work but more expensive than Voss plastic, cheaper than Voss alu.

We are planning to use some proceeds of the Wicked Ride to improve signage in Harold Parker. We hope to blaze some loop routes yet to be determined. Also some directional signs at major fire road intersections pointed to major trailheads/parking. This is in addition to the numbered intersection scheme on carsonite posts that DCR has at least in some locations adopted as a standard, which may be implemented sometime in the near future.

I have to say that I am not that big a fan of the numbered intersection idea. It's dependent on a map that the trail use may not have or may not be up to date, the numbering can get pretty wierd, hard to add more numbers as new trails are added. I sort of prefer the USFS/BLM thing where the trails are numbered. It makes it really easy to describe a route to someone.

I'm interested to see where this thread goes, especially in regard to practices at other DCR properties in MA.

DS

[peterdbikes]

I did the numbered intersections at Musquash in Londonderry NH. People have made positive comments. I skipped numbers in the original plan so if we added trails there would numbers available in the same range in the same general area.

We also placed signs 8 - 10 feet high on trees. Any posts had rebar and concrete.

No problems yet...(4 Years)

I like the idea of the brown flexable "posts" (carsonite?) with the appropriate labels.

[If_Rider]

The VLMC signs came from Sign-a-rama in Milford, MA. They are a national chain.

Milford Signs


Phone: 508-473-7980
231 E. Main Street
Fax: 508-473-9760
Milford, Massachusetts 01757

Email: signs@milfordsar.com
Howard & Lillian Wieland

[heckler]

Blue Hills has numbered intersections and although they didn't appear to be in order it did make locating myself on the map a no brainer. I also think it would be nice to indicate how far to the next intersection and/or the exit/parking lot.

Wompi does the same. One map allows you to find yourself anywehre in the park when you come to an intersection. They also put the numbers on the north side of the intersection so even without a map you can get oriented even on a cloudy day (or night).

[wannabee]

Before we all go heading in all directions, DCR has the say of what signs are used where and when, at state parks. Or better yet, the park supervisor does.
Wompi will be going thru a change in signage soon. Change? The FOW has been talking about changeing the color of trail signage, from brown and white to sumtin' else, so you can see it. What colors are being used by others?
A running club using Wompi wanted special signs to mark 'running' trails, but during discussion, how much trail damage would result if TRAILS were marked. Any input.
Wompi signage, right now, is installed by DCR employees.
Recently, riders/walkers have found several important intersection markers missing.
A major interesection marker, could be quite large if distances to next marker is included, with gps location.
What do you really need on the intersection markers?
Now keep it simple.....

[geezer]

Another thing you might want to take into consideration is if there is hunting allowed where it is being posted, it pretty much needs to be "BULLETPROOF".

[Mr_Cheeze]

I like the idea of instituting more color codes for various trails, especially at locales with large networks; like, Wompy, for example. It's real easy to get lost in there without a map. Not every trail is marked. And it gets real frustrating with having to stop during the flow of a ride to try and figure out where the heck I am. It's real easy to miss the intersection markers while riding. But a yellow blaze to denote the NW trail, green for the NS, etc. Simple solution.

[digger]

What does DCR currently have for trail markers in wompy or other parks? It's been my impression that numbered intersections on carsonite posts is the desired result in our region (NE). It would be great to hear about other DCR properties where another system is used that's viewed as successful. The carsonite posts are pretty ugly and the small decal numbers and use designations on the posts are small and hard to decipher.

The Dale Ball signs look like each one is custom for a location. I can see that requiring some careful planning and more expense for a trail system with a lot of intersections.

I sometimes hear the suggestion that it's not a problem to number only most critical intersections and find it hard to imagine how that might work.

DS

[radair]

The carsonite posts are pretty ugly and the small decal numbers and use designations on the posts are small and hard to decipher.

I agree that Carsonite posts are kind of ugly. They're quite expensive also. I can see using them in the desert, but it's pretty rare when there isn't a tree wherever you need a sign here in the NE.

The Dale Ball signs look like each one is custom for a location. I can see that requiring some careful planning and more expense for a trail system with a lot of intersections.

I sometimes hear the suggestion that it's not a problem to number only most critical intersections and find it hard to imagine how that might work.

The Dale Ball signs each have a small trail map with labeled intersections. The only difference between each sign is the number, which may have been added after the fact. The nice thing is it's really easy to navigate without a map.

I don't think every intersection needs to be labeled as long as the map is accurate. I like the idea of different colored and/or different shaped blazes.

Before we all go heading in all directions, DCR has the say of what signs are used where and when, at state parks...

In Massachusetts, but NEMBA deals with a lot more than just MA state parks.

[heckler]

What does DCR currently have for trail markers in wompy or other parks?
DS

At Wompi they just use small signs- maybe 3X5 nailed high up on a tree.

[wannabee]

Yup! 3 x 5 inch (roughly), stained brown, location designation engraved then painted white, nailed to the tree. Made on site by DCR people.
Planting a 4 x 4 for each intersection would be a fulltime job with all the intersections and the numerous pebbles that Wompi grows.
The trail map that is on the Wompatuck/DCR website shows all the signs. Yup, quite a few.
Being placed up high has reduced unauthorized removals.
Painting colored blazes on Wompatuck trees is not recommended. It is frowned upon, highly.
In the spring, markings on the park's roadways will also start to disappear.
Using GPS locations would not help those riders/walkers that do not have them.
If you have an intersection designation and the emergency service person you're calling has an up to date map with the same numbers, you're found.
You have to have a system for assigning the designations.

[wannabee]

Designation system at Wompatuck.....
On the Wompatuck/DCR trail maps, the locations have a letter and a number, ie S30.
The letter 'S' is for the 'south field' area.
Additionally, 'R' is for the Reservoir area, 'E' is for 'East' area, 'W' is for 'West', 'NW' for 'NorthWest' area, 'C' for 'Center', and guess what 'N' is for. Yup, you're right, 'North' area.
The numbers are somewhat random. You can see a pattern of how they were applied when you look at the trail map. BUT, all signs are placed on trees, and YOU ARE FACING NORTH when you're reading the sign.
Some blank pieces of wood are squirrelled away, stained, but not engraved. This reduces the number of 'signs' that would go unused if specific designations were engraved.
There are some colored plastic signs still in the park (triangles, circles, and squares) with symbols, but they are being replaced slowly. They are from an earlier trail system signage attempt.
The Wompy system is not just for MTBers use. Wompy trails are multi-disciplined (MTBers, runners, cross country skiing, equestrian, hikers, walkers, snow mobilers, dog sledders, etc).
Maps are available at the Womaptuck Visitor Center and at all the NEW kiosks throughout the park.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I'm not sure that anybody was suggesting painting blazes on trees. Certainly not me. There are presently white and yellow plastic arrow shaped blazes nailed to trees along certain trails. Durable and easy to follow while riding. It doesn't seem totally unreasonable to consider expanding upon this system for each section of the trail, maybe? I don't know, maybe the system presently in place is enough. I didn't know about the section markers facing north. Is that indicated on the map?

What's a Dale Ball sign?

[SteveC]

I know that there are a few areas of Wompy that need work in terms of signage--there's one intersection I can think of on the 'MTB' loop where the (triangle arrow with green bike) marker is missing, mainly b/c there's no tree obvious enough to nail it to.....and there are other areas that can be abit confusing....that's a project for early spring, if anyone would like to work on it w/me....meanwhile, lets start a list of the problem areas right here(or email me)...........
That said, the way Wompy is set up with markers at all major intersections, is really all we need, right? The park signage system generally works great with a map. And of course it'd be silly to ride anywhere without a map!!
SC

[lobolator]

Radair knows where I cut my teeth, trail riding up here...in the White Mtn Nat Forest...and I know that I don't ever look at forest service signs for a direction to go, but more for trail junctions. The reason being, over time I've watched all the signs do 360s, or worse 180 or 270s (and yes I try to turn them in the right direction)...now I don't need the sign to get me out...but somebody does. I still take wrong turns in my own playground because I get turned around, I realize the mistake after a couple hundred yards but someone else might not.
I like high on the tree signs, color coded for each trail (or just major cross trails for very densely trailed areas). Signs always on the North is good too, just inform people of that (though I know lots of people that wouldn't help, lol).
And show the easy way out at every major junction (if there is one).
Where I live there is a fire road that twists and winds so that going west can get you farther in or out, depending on where you intersect the road. I've routinely found someone going deeper, thinkin they were on their way out. They would've added a river crossing and 5-6miles of road.

[wannabee]

Marking trails by using colored signs, either wood or plastic. Sounds like that might work. But I got a question...or a couple:
Who will decide which path or trail is to be included in any certain marked trail?
What would the signage be if a section of one trail is also being used as a section of another?
How to show that the trail is MTB use, or hiker use, or equestrian, or running? And skiing, snowmobile, etc., etc? Multi-use?
Will 2 signs be needed at each location, coming from one direction, and one from the other?
Will maps be posted around the parks or made available to riders, etc?
How confusing will the maps become if all park users decide they want their own specific trails?
I'm used to hanging marking tape from limbs when marking for a club ride. Then re-riding the next day to remove it.
What if.....

[wannabee]

SteveC .. add to the list to re-institute the road markings showing direction to the main road or main gate at Wompy. They are either worn off or covered up by undergrowth. Maybe put them in the middle of the paved sections.

[wannabee]

Ahhhh...
Just thought of sumtin' else....Wompy has paved trails, as well as single track & fire roads. Would the signage 'philosophy' change if the paved sections are included?

[DVRider]

Using GPS locations would not help those riders/walkers that do not have them.

I disagree, Give me a map and a Latitude/Longitude location, I can navigate myself around anywhere without a GPS Unit. Actually Nix the map and I can still log my relative direction.

Also the Lat/Long location are a better solution for finding someone who is lost/hurt. How many of these recent rescue attempts that are all the rage in the media now have they talked about cell phone communication. If these guys had found a sign with GPS markings and sent that via a text message or through voice comms, they would probably be alive and rescued a lot quicker.

I don't see why anyone would create trailsigns without Lat/Long information on them at this point. I think it would just be shortsighted.

[wannabee]

Anyone keeping a running tabulation of what would be nice on a trail marker?

What size markers are being talked about? 3 x 5, 4 x 6, 5 x 18?

Who will be purchasing/supplying these markers? Also the post they'll be attached to?

How many signs?

[wannabee]

DVRider has a point, posting long/lat on signs, for 'rescue' missions. In a larger park it would work, but in smaller ones, the long/lat would be the same on every signpost, wouldn't it? The GPS point would be better for smaller parks.
Next, you'd need someone that could read long/lat points, and have maps readily handy. Once found, you'd need a park map to find the access trails. Maps can't be at the dispatch center, but on the responding vehicle.
Many agencies have GPS capability.
Could both methods be used in the larger parks? Long/lat to get you in the neighborhood, then GPS to fine tune?
One assumption is that everybody has cellphone capability, and they are not in a dead zone.

[wannabee]

Presently, 151 existing 'intersection' sign locations at Wompatuck, per the latest published (2006) trail map.
Do we need them all?

[DVRider]

DVRider has a point, posting long/lat on signs, for 'rescue' missions. In a larger park it would work, but in smaller ones, the long/lat would be the same on every signpost, wouldn't it? The GPS point would be better for smaller parks.
Next, you'd need someone that could read long/lat points, and have maps readily handy. Once found, you'd need a park map to find the access trails. Maps can't be at the dispatch center, but on the responding vehicle.
Many agencies have GPS capability.
Could both methods be used in the larger parks? Long/lat to get you in the neighborhood, then GPS to fine tune?
One assumption is that everybody has cellphone capability, and they are not in a dead zone.

GPS devices usually give you Long/Lat coordinates in DMS(Degrees Minutes,Seconds) or at least Degrees and decimal Minutes. These coordinates can be related to the gridlines on a map. If I can get my global position with my phone, I would hope anyone attempting to rescue me would be able to read a map to find me. ... or they're in the wrong business.

[wannabee]

The BIG word is IF.
Wompatuck has been a dead spot for cell phones in the past. Recent local neighboring tower installations may have eased the condition. So DMS might work.
Not being familiar with DMS or GPS, would intersections that are 100 to 150 feet apart show different coordinates?
I can see being 1/2 mile apart for BIG parks would work, but smaller parks?
The local 'rescue team' in my area is the local fire/police department. Many times you get rescued by the ordinary joe, out for ride or walk.

[wannabee]

Is park trail use being only allowed to those that have GPS or cell phone use, now? All others keep out! All others including walkers, runners, equestrian, snow mobilers, skiiers, etc., etc. What about hunters, land owners?

No one has addressed that question yet. It sounds to me from what I'm reading, is that MTBers think that they are the only ones that will use these signs. Guess again, people.

To be useful, signage has to be useable by ALL users of the trails, whomever it is, or are 'your' trails MTB ONLY. Universal? Best is to Keep It Simple Stupid, or is it Stupid Simple. Whatever......

Don't rely upon everyone using the English language, either. Pictorials (if available) are best.

[Quo Fan]

When GPS first became available, it was accurate to only about 300 feet. Now that there are more satelites, and better technology, GPS is accurate to something like 10 feet.

GPS depends on satelites, not cell towers, and is affected by overhead coverage. You get better positioning data with less coverage.