I've seen the enemy...

[Jisch]

...and the enemy was me.

Slider and I rode at Shenipsit/Soapstone today. It was a great ride, I actually got lost for a few minutes. I didn't think that was possible for me at Shenipsit. I'll post some pics over in General when I can get to my other PC.

Anyway we passed these two guys sitting by the side of the trail, both probably around my age (40's) or older and both on kinda bottom of the line FS bikes (its funny how I do this assessment of a rider even if I don't see them ride - but that's not the point of this rant).

Right after we pass these two guys we go through a small, rock armored stream and then a pretty high log. Both do-able but difficult (I made them both).

We get maybe 50 yards past the log and decide to take a break there ourselves. After a few minutes I notice that the other two guys have made it to the stream and log area. One of the guys is walking back and forth, but I can't really make out what they are doing. At first I thought maybe they were just trying to ride the stuff we just passed. Then it dawns on me that these guys are sanitizing the trail! I rode back down and asked the guy if he was sanitizing the trail, (I fell down right in front of him to make a good impression) he gives me a blank stare.

I ask him again, but this time I ask him if he's making the trail easier.

He says, "No, no we're just trying these sections out" - despite the fact he's a good 100 ft from his bike.

I said, "Good because its not cool to make the trails easier".

As I passed the log to ride back up, I noticed a new pile of small logs piled in front of it.

There's been quite a bit of trail sanitization at Soapstone. Most of it makes minorly difficult obstacles dead easy. I always figured it was the younger set doing it (showing some bias?). It turns out its older guys - at least in this case, and they know they shouldn't be doing it! I probably should have turned around and confronted the guys again, but they seemed embarassed enough already.

John

[SpicyMcHagis]

Can't we all just ride and get along....

What about the board-ramp on the 36" log? Some can make that without the aid of the board? What about the big rock with a bridge/ramp? The trials boys can ride that without. Who draws the line? Just ride... And if necessary, make it perfect for your ability and preference, AFTER the "sanitizers" are no longer present. I cut out four blow downs this weekend, from the wind last week. Does that make me the Enemy, too?

[Jisch]

The guiding principal is that if its not your trail and you haven't cleared it with the "owner" leave it as is. If you can't ride over the obstacle, walk it. That's pretty simple. Isn't that the beauty of a bike? You can pick it up and carry it if there's something in the trail that you can't ride over.

Of course if there are blowdowns across the trail they should be cleared by whomever comes across them first - that way no one makes braids around the blockage.

John

[Mr_Cheeze]

Was the sanitization covering the entire length of the log, or was there still an area left where you could still choose to pass on a more difficult level? Is it ok if modifications are made as long as it doesn't affect the entire section? For example, if the trail is 5 feet wide, and the log is 24 inches in diameter and blocking the entire path. What's the problem with "sanitizing" a 2 foot section on either the far right or left?

[C]

The wind dropped a 30" plus round tree perpendicular to the trail. The tree is elevated so the highest point is app. 3' from the ground. The tree is app 80 ' long and the lays perfectly centered on the trail. This tree is on state land. To go over with a bike is difficult but do able. Now what happens??

Instead of people going over the tree they go around threw the brush. This leads to more forest destruction and a bad flow to this trail.

So explain to me what do we do??????


Don't forget these trails were created by people so why can't people maintain them.

[Jisch]

I hope its obvious that common sense trumps all else. We're trying to preserve the trails as best we can, whatever that takes is good. My rant was about trail sanitization in general. I guess my bringing the log into it confused things. However, I would still say even building up a log pile so crossing the log is easier is lame. In this case the trail was narrow, so any cheat was such that everyone had to use it.

I still say, in general, if you don't have permission, don't change the trail, "blockages" notwithstanding. In the log mentioned in my original post, I would have had no issue with those guys removing the log, since it really was a "blowdown" but it had obviously been there for some time (and no braid was evident around it, given its location).

If we don't stick to the "don't change anything" rule then where do you draw the line? Who is the "average" rider who has to be able to clear something? I've see a 6" drop (yes - six inches) sanitized at Shenipsit. I guess someone thought they were making the trail better. I've seen logs piled against a 10" diameter log - is that really necessary? If we keep going in that direction we might as well get road bikes. A good ride for me is one in which I have to get off my bike because I can't make something, its about the challenge.

John

[Mr_Cheeze]

The wind dropped a 30" plus round tree perpendicular to the trail. The tree is elevated so the highest point is app. 3' from the ground. The tree is app 80 ' long and the lays perfectly centered on the trail. This tree is on state land. To go over with a bike is difficult but do able. Now what happens??

Instead of people going over the tree they go around threw the brush. This leads to more forest destruction and a bad flow to this trail.

So explain to me what do we do??????


Don't forget these trails were created by people so why can't people maintain them.

Well, in this instance, somebody is going to chainsaw that sucker, before the idiots begin detouring through the brush. I think that if only 1 in 50 bikers who might have the ability to pass an obstruction on their bike, that the obstruction is better off being removed or modified. But where do you draw the line? On a wide enough trail, I think the solution is simple. Accomodate the less advanced on a segment, if possible, leaving the rest for the advanced. I'm not sure what it proves to leave something that forces most people to dismount and carry. Bragging rights? How will a partial ramp affect the integrity of the trail? When does the general flow of a trail take precedence? I'm not sure where you would draw the line, based on difficulty of an obstacle. The overall difficulty of a particular trail is obviously a big factor. Less advanced riders have no business sanitizing an obviously advanced trail in any fashion.

As far as "permission" goes to make a change, whose permission? I think you're right about common sense being the general rule. But for permission? That's kind of a tough call. It's ridiculously lame for anybody to sanitize anything smaller than 12 inches. But I've been guilty of sanitizing a section of a high log to keep the flow while leaving alone the segment where the obvious chain ring marks show where others give it a go. Was I wrong?

[Jisch]

I'm not sure what it proves to leave something that forces most people to dismount and carry. Bragging rights? ...Maybe Jisch can offer some general description of that particular trail. Is it commonly used by novice riders?

This is exactly what I'm talking about, none of us are capable of saying "this obstacle is beyond the ability of a normal rider, therefore it should be made easier". Lacking a ruler by which things can be judged, we should just leave stuff alone.

As far as the trail this was on, it was definitely a difficult trail - I don't think there are any "easy" trails at Shenipsit. That being said, I've seen all kinds of riders on it. Hey, I'm all for having fun in the woods, no matter what that means. From my perspective getting off the bike occasionally because I can't clear something is a good thing. I understand that at a certain point getting on and off the bike over and over again sucks.

John

[mdc]

Overall I could care less if someone takes an obstacle out or adds one in. I agree that if you are a new rider and remove a fairly tame feature it's pretty lame, but I have seen some stupid technical features added to trails that were basically unrideable (the guys building them couldn't even ride them..stupid!)
People come and go, trees fall, trees get picked up, obstacles are made and obstacles are removed. I am just happy to be out in the woods enjoying what I do.

[dirtrider2]

I'll chime in, FWIW, from a nam perspective. We have a lot of problems with braiding (making alternative lines) all over our trail system. We have also seen rogue stunts and trail sanitization taking place. Believe me, we put a lot of effort into trying to balance the needs of the recreational and the expert rider. However, we still see these things crop up often enough that it is more than an annoyance.

These braids create four problems. 1) They are routed poorly in that they are a path of convenience for the riders AT THAT ONE TIME and do not work well in the established system. 2) They are made poorly without proper benching and/or armoring techniques, etc. 3) Since we (the Vietnam Land Management Committee) are responsible for care and maintenance of NEMBA's parcel, we have to 'undo' these things which takes away time from making trail enhancements that everyone can enjoy. 4) Finally, with little paths going everywhere and poorly made TTF's, the trail system just looks bad.

As for the 'but who do we contact' issue, if and when someone sees a problem with the trails at nam, we are easy to contact. We watch all of the boards, but we rarely hear from anyone. So, I don't think that who to contact is the problem. I just don't think people are willing to bother.

You know, it comes down to a sense of etiquette. And unfortunately Jisch, I don't think that sense is too common in our community.

Dave

[peterdbikes]

If you want to do trail work, do it at a scheduled trail day with those who are authorized to do it!!!

[radair]

The wind dropped a 30" plus round tree perpendicular to the trail. The tree is elevated so the highest point is app. 3' from the ground. The tree is app 80 ' long ...

So explain to me what do we do?

I'd use a chain saw and a come-a-long and make that puppy a log ride parallel to the trail...

[Slider]

My $0.02:

The trail in question was just hard enough for me to have to hit it right to clean it. The log actually came after the mud/rock section that was the most challenging part. But if you hit mud/rock just right, you had all the momentum you needed to make the log. If not, the log was a stopper.

In other words, it was just the right amount of hard, at least for me.

There was no log three feet off the ground, and no mud rut a foot deep. Even a lucky novice, if he/she had no fear, could make it. And even when it got the best of them, they would get pretty close most of the time.

I don't see this one as a grey area at all. It was challenging, but not dangerous or impossible. Leave it alone!

Slider