Foxboro SF Issues

[Mr_Cheeze]

I thought it would be better to move this discussion into this Advocacy forums section after having developed some decent discussion and issues worth exploring further.

I have recently been in correspondence with SE Mass NEMBA President Rich Higgins addressing our concerns. He attended the Forest Advisory Meeting last night and sent me an update. Hopefully he won't mind if I post it here. I think it concerns all who use Foxboro.




Hi Mike,

I attended the Foxboro State Forrest advisory meeting last night and discussed the Enduro and other trail issues with Ron and a representative of NETRA. The conversation became quite heated when the subject of new line creation (straighter lines done by the bikes) came up. To make a long story short, I told Ron I would document where greatest trail damage was.

There is a memorandum of Agreement between the forest and one of the motorcycle groups which outlines their responsibility towards working on the trails. I will be following up with Ron on that end.

After last years Enduro, we had a trail day at Foxboro and tried repairing a number of the corner blow-outs and other problems. It's a little like spitting into the wind. We also documented the damage and I sent a letter and photos to then Secretary of Environmental affairs, Steven Pritchard. I never received a response.

I've attached a map of Foxboro. If you could highlight some of the blow-out spots, I will then send it back to Ron. It would be a start.

Thanks for your concern and help.

Regards,

Rich



Attached you will find the Foxboro SF trail map. If I could appeal to those of you who might aid me in highlighting the areas of concern. I know of a few areas, but being that Foxboro is a big place, and I tend to avoid the trails that are beyond my ability, I am probably missing other sections with damage (blow-outs and new lines). I think it may be better if those who wish to add their concerns to send an e-mail along to Rich as I intend to. Perhaps being armed with a quantity of complaints might buttress his standing in this dispute versus NETRA. Please bring your cameras the next time you ride out at Foxboro and take a couple of shots of areas of concern. That way the NETRA folks won't think we're exaggerating. Thanks in advance for your help. Maybe we can start to finally make some progress here and reverse a disturbing trend.

[Mr_Cheeze]

It has been brough to my attention that Foxboro's Land Manager, Ron Clough, has one particular gripe directed at the mountain bikers who ride at Foxboro SF. There seems to be an illigal trail, possibly of a free-ride nature, that has been created and used, regardless of closure signs, by mountain bikers. I have a guess as to where this trail is, but I have noticed a couple of other sections where free riders have taken it upon themselves to forge new trails.

See the map below where I have highlighted where I believe the illigal trail to be. Regular users would definitely recognize this shared trail section. As you cross the road, there is a slight decline as the trail turns left and becomes a quite rocky and rooty incline, leading up to a large granite surface with a tough section of roots at its base. The illigal trail, I believe, is off the left of this trail, before the granite. Last I knew, there was no signage there, but I haven't ridden that section in a couple of months.

This is the type of stuff that hurts our cause in the eyes of officials involved. I know that this is not the first time or place where the issue of free riders helping themselves to unauthorized trail creation has become an issue. Unfortunately, they are lumped within the general "mountain bike" group, and damage our credibility. Please help us to spread the word, if you see anybody using these trails. Be diplomatic. And if you see blockage removed, take a couple of minutes to replace it.

[Slappy]

I know that this is not the first time or place where the issue of free riders helping themselves to unauthorized trail creation has become an issue. Unfortunately, they are lumped within the general "mountain bike" group, and damage our credibility.

If you think the freeriders are bad, you should check out the ridiculous amount of trail braids the 'XC' riders have made at Nam around everything remotely resembling a challenge. Stay on the freakin' trails will ya! ;)

[Scott O]

When do motorcycles have access to Foxboro? I was in there on Tues night and noticed some really blown out trails, especially between the cell tower and rt 1. Plenty of fresh motorcycle tracks too. If I make it in next week I'll let you know specific trails. Thanks.

[Mr_Cheeze]

When do motorcycles have access to Foxboro? I was in there on Tues night and noticed some really blown out trails, especially between the cell tower and rt 1. Plenty of fresh motorcycle tracks too. If I make it in next week I'll let you know specific trails. Thanks.

When do they have access? Same as everyone else. They park up at the radio tower, where access is perpetually open during daylight hours. The only part of Foxboro that closes otherwise is the paved lot at the ranger station.

And yes, those trails north of the tower are probably in the roughest shape, as they get the most MX usage. And its probably where there are the most examples of blow-outs and line cuts, not to mention ruts and such.

[C.P.]

When do they have access? Same as everyone else. They park up at the radio tower, where access is perpetually open during daylight hours. The only part of Foxboro that closes otherwise is the paved lot at the ranger station.

And yes, those trails north of the tower are probably in the roughest shape, as they get the most MX usage. And its probably where there are the most examples of blow-outs and line cuts, not to mention ruts and such.

Just for clarification, Theres only ONE MX loop (1) for motorcycles. It is marked on the map. It's also worth noting that there are no ATV allowed in F Gilbert Hills.

The blow outs and short cuts we're most interested in are not specifically on the MX loop, (although there are plenty) but, rather on MTB and multi-use trails etc (as marked on the map). The Enduro does have access to said trails (by permit) and as such, said blowouts and shortcuts on said trails are the ones we will need to specifically make a note of.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I am in agreement. However, Rich indicated to me in a separate e-mail that any and all ofrfending examples would be welcome for his review before presenting a case to the forest manager. I think that the strategy here is, present a strong case for restrictions and settle for two reasonable outcomes. 1. No Enduro on trails not designated for motorized access. 2. More commitment from NETRA and the Enduro crowd to help maintain the trails they use.

We may be working against the tide here, anyway. I get the distinct impression from Rich that Ron Clough, the land manager, is hardly compelled to come up with any particular solution. My own personal feeling is that this is just another case of beaurocratic politics at work here. The Enduro likely pays the state a good fee to use the park, which immediately gives their side favor in any dispute. So we need to present as strong a case as possible just to get minor consessions.

[trailburn]

Does building or maintaining a trail on public land give one ownership rights? History tells us "No." Just ask the dirt bikers, who developed much of the Foxboro/F. Gilbert network 20+ years ago and now have to beg permits for a once per year event.

Perhaps the land manager is listening to you, but you're not listening to him? He's saying it's a public forest and he's going to balance the opinions of over-reacting NEMBA control freaks with the rights of all users (except Freeriders). Thank goodness he's likely to do the same when the hikers or horses try shutting out MTBs. It's in NEMBA's long-term interest to work with land managers who don't bend over to special interests, even if the special interest is us. So, bravo to him.

I like the idea of taking pictures. Do it now on the freeride trail and the enduro loop, then go back in two months to demonstrate the resilience of the forest to recover. (Take the bait over-reactors: "It's not resilient, it's (my) sensitive, fragile, and important wild ecosystem with pavement all around it, blah, blah, blah...)

But back to the photo idea: the XC and Freeriders will still be unblocking and using everything they cut, whereas the dirt bikers will be returned to High Rock, one of the few legal loops they have in southeastern MA. So, we'll be forced again to hear the errant land manager tell us MTBers have enough credibiltiy issues to address within our own community.

Now, instead of tattling to the teacher, principal, and superintendent/commissioner, it might be nicer and more mature to co-sponsor a trailwork day in partnership with NETRA. That would require acting like grown-ups though, and force us to work alongside an hourly worker who fixes plumbing and swears instead of a salary worker who programs computers and quotes movies...

[C.P.]

Does building or maintaining a trail on public land give one ownership rights? History tells us "No." Just ask the dirt bikers, who developed much of the Foxboro/F. Gilbert network 20+ years ago and now have to beg permits for a once per year event.

Perhaps the land manager is listening to you, but you're not listening to him? He's saying it's a public forest and he's going to balance the opinions of over-reacting NEMBA control freaks with the rights of all users (except Freeriders). Thank goodness he's likely to do the same when the hikers or horses try shutting out MTBs. It's in NEMBA's long-term interest to work with land managers who don't bend over to special interests, even if the special interest is us. So, bravo to him.

I like the idea of taking pictures. Do it now on the freeride trail and the enduro loop, then go back in two months to demonstrate the resilience of the forest to recover. (Take the bait over-reactors: "It's not resilient, it's (my) sensitive, fragile, and important wild ecosystem with pavement all around it, blah, blah, blah...)

But back to the photo idea: the XC and Freeriders will still be unblocking and using everything they cut, whereas the dirt bikers will be returned to High Rock, one of the few legal loops they have in southeastern MA. So, we'll be forced again to hear the errant land manager tell us MTBers have enough credibiltiy issues to address within our own community.

Now, instead of tattling to the teacher, principal, and superintendent/commissioner, it might be nicer and more mature to co-sponsor a trailwork day in partnership with NETRA. That would require acting like grown-ups though, and force us to work alongside an hourly worker who fixes plumbing and swears instead of a salary worker who programs computers and quotes movies...

:confused:

Hey Trailburn, Are you willing to join us at a SEMASS meeting to discuss some of your ideas, learn more about our history and reasons for our positions at Foxboro, and maybe even help us put together a trailwork event? Sounds like Foxboro is important to you both as a Mtn Biker and a Dirtbike. A lot of background info (too much to post here) exists on the subject of Foxboro, and it's possible you're confusing NEMBA's "advocacy for sustainable trail use" with an "anti orv position". I look forward to seeing you at our meeting.

[Mr_Cheeze]

It's the same tired argument from you guys. "If it weren't for dirt bikes creating the original trails... yadda yadda." That is entirely beside the point, so please stop tossing it ou tthere everytime these issues arise.

Where exactly did you get the impression that MBRs are doing anything other than attempting to maintain an equitable arangement whereby these trails can be both shared and maintained. Nothing more. We're not trying to block your access to the High Top loop. Not in the least. We are trying to get more cooperation from the MX community in having more consideration for the forest by respecting established trails; and to restrict the Endure to that loop, which has not been the case. Maybe you feel anyone with a motor and a who-gives-a-crap attitude can just blow out every sharp corner and cut around every difficult rocky section. Does the forest recover when a hundred bikes in an enduro help themselves to lines that were not previously there? No, because the MX'rs don't bother to fix what they damage and don't feel they need to police themselves. Instead you want to whine about someone elses valid disputes. And then you bring up this bs about computer programmers and plumbers? So then this is really about class warfare for you? Talk about clueless.

We would like nothing more than to help maintain the trails at Foxboro... and have them respected, to boot. But therein lies the frustrating part. How are we supposed to react when an Enduro blows through what is supposed to be a non-motorized trail? What gives them the right? And you think the land manager is somehow favoring us?

We do have our own issues with a-holes who cut illegal trails and ride around fallen trees and logs. Maybe you should deal with your own morons and let us handle ours.

Sorry for the Popeye moment, there guys. But it was all I could standz, and I couldn't standz no more.

[bdee]

I have yet to hear anyone state they wanted the motobikes out of there - that's not the issue. Most mtbers share the trails amicably out there, it's a given that there's going to be MX use. Are there over reactionary types? Sure, on both sides. We are angry about the accelerated wear on trails off of the MX loop and to some extent the never ending widening, trenching and ponding of the yellow trail itself.

What strikes me as extremely disengenous is when the Forest management gets pissed about a FR trail (I know the trail in question, and yeah it's stupid) while not giving a rat's ass about the MX loop and what happens to it, and the rest of the trail, during an Enduro. Why is that OK exactly? It's still unauthorized cutting everytime someone shortcuts a corner or widens a trail by a few feet.

The idea that the Loop at Foxboro is all Motorized users have is a huge joke! Franklin SF is used by ATVs and MX bikes more than anything else - to the point that almost no one goes there to anything else aside from hunting anymore. The yellow loop there is a swamp for weeks at a time and is a pit - hell, even the MX riders are starting to cut around there own mud holes. Wrentham is practically an interstate highway system thanks to MX and ATV use. I don't believe the Warner Trail was built to serve as a trail for motorized users, but that never stopped anyone from turning large sections in Wrentham into their own 10 foot wide mud pit.

Sorry for the venting moment, but the argument that we are getting anything less than the short end of the stick is weak. And for whatever it's worth TB I work in an office, get paid hourly, and swear like a f*ckin sailor. ;)

[oldcarkook]

Hey fellas, lets remember that we are all in the forest for the same reason; to enjoy it.

The issue here is education. As an equestrian and dirt biker, I can tell you that all of these concerns can be addressed and resolved through education. Realize that development of land, and regulatory restrictions have driven all off-road enthusiasts into smaller and smaller areas. Whether you are riding a horse, a mountain bike, a dirt bike, or anything else off-road, everyone is there to enjoy the same topography and the same forest for the same reasons. If we were all relegated to laps around a grassy park on a paved path it would be pretty dull pretty fast.

Since we are all there for the same reason, then we should all be able to peacefully co-exist and find ways to resolve conflict and issues. By no means is slamming the other's interest going to advance a resolution. Go to the equine sites and you'll find calls for the end to all forms of trail use except horses and hikers. Mountain bikers don't want dirt bikes. Dirt bikes don't want quads. Hikers don't want anything with wheels on their trails. Snowmobilers don't want x/c skiers. Snow shoe hikers don't want skiers. Horseback riders don't want anything that might startle a horse, and that's all of the above.

Startin' a pissin' contest to get only "your" specific form of recreation advanced and "approved" will have no constructive result, and I can tell you from experience that dividing various interest groups in this context is the first step to locking the doors on all of us.

CP is right: we need to all get together and air out issues and find solutions. Simply slinging mud at each other's interests will ultimately leave only the animals in the forest with all of us on the outside of the newly erected razor wire fence looking in.

Joint meetings is the first start, and then joint efforts to OPEN more land so we can all spread out is the second step. Stop wasting valuable brain power and negative energy on complaining and put the positive efforts into finding resolutions and opening up more of our public land for use for all forms of off-roading.

After all, it is owned by all of us isn't it?

Lastly, I think you'll all agree that 95% of the problems come from a small group of users who disregard the rules. A couple of yahoos in any sport can ruin for it for everyone.

Can't we all just get along?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Hey fellas, lets remember that we are all in the forest for the same reason; to enjoy it.

...

Can't we all just get along?

If you've followed this thread from the beginning, old car, you'll see that what we seek as regards to Foxboro State Forest is more than reasonable. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could disagree with the two main points as layed out previously. You cannot reasonably expect that one solution is to open up all the trails to everybody. I hope that's not what you're saying. As an equestrian, I am sure the last thing you want to come across while on your horse is a dirt biker. That said, is it too much to ask that NETRA take more responsibility in protecting and maintaining the trails they use? Because no matter what they say, it's simply not happening at a satisfactory level. To use the argument that the forest recovers on its own is fallacious. It's a cop out. I think you know that we, as in NEMBA, have been trying to help and would be more than happy to continue to help in maintaining the trails we all enjoy at Foxboro. Working together requires mutual respect for the trails and the forest. Such a duty is hard to achieve with one side or the other denying or shrugging off the other's concerns, as is what seems to be happening in this case.

It cannot be repeated enough, we are NOT looking to remove the MX'er from Foxboro. Not. n-o-t. I'm sorry if that seems patronizing, but I think that those guys have it in their heads that that is our overriding agenda, and it just isn't.

[priss]

Hey fellas, .... I can tell you from experience that dividing various interest groups in this context is the first step to locking the doors on all of us.



Please do, and please be specific as to the time and place where this occured. I am unwilling to stipulate to your anonimous experiance with out further evidence of its validity.

Kereina
(not a fella)

[gixxerw]

Maybe if there was a registration fee for all users of the forest there wouldn't be deviding lines. MXr's as you call them have to pay a fee ($37-$40) every year to use said forests and they don't have access to the whole area! MTBr's and equestrians do not pay the state at all to access the entire trail system does this seem fair? We have veitnam to use the equestrian bunch have the trunkline trail off road riders have only a few small areas to use in the east and a 2-3 hour ride to get to the ones in the west where as equestrian riders and us mountain bikers have alot of areas we can use. Get over it and lets all share.

[gixxerw]

You might be right but you wonder why off road riders feel they have more rights because they pay more registration fee's and sales tax and gas tax to use the same area as everyone else. As far as the people that moved into these areas to get away as you put it they must have known when they moved in the forest was a multiuse forest. Just like the people that move next to gun clubs or big cattle farms complaining about noise or stink. As it was stated earlier that is an old argument.
If you haven't noticed everywhere but private property or a few small state forest's is off limits to motorized vehicles but not to horses/hikers/MTB's if all of the groups worked together we could have most of the state forests back!

[Slappy]

Maybe if there was a registration fee for all users of the forest there wouldn't be deviding lines. MXr's as you call them have to pay a fee ($37-$40) every year to use said forests and they don't have access to the whole area! MTBr's and equestrians do not pay the state at all to access the entire trail system does this seem fair? We have veitnam to use the equestrian bunch have the trunkline trail off road riders have only a few small areas to use in the east and a 2-3 hour ride to get to the ones in the west where as equestrian riders and us mountain bikers have alot of areas we can use. Get over it and lets all share.


Kinda like saying if a bunch of people living in the desert buy and register speedboats, the state owes 'em a lake.
Isn't the fee due to a motor vehicle requiring some sort of registration? It's surely not meant to be some sort of all-inclusive trail pass. And you'd think with all the people who own them, they'd be able to at least maintain the few legal areas they have to ride. What %age of motorized users you think can be bothered to do trailwork?

[MattR]

Trail impact occurs regardless of specific use (hiker, bicycle, horse, or ATV). Most trail impact is attributable to the initial removal of vegetation and exposing bare soil, which will occur with all of the above uses or just the act of constructing a trail. The degree of impact is mostly dependent on environmental conditions (vegetation cover, soil type, soil moisture, slope, aspect, and precipitation). Limiting use types or the volume of use has little effect on the overall impact to trail conditions.

Considering the width and length of trails for any of these use types the area of impact relative to the total forest area is very small. With the exception of noise, a big problem for motorized use, the same arguments regarding trail impacts could be used to restrict any of our activities.

[mtbtom]

Trail impact occurs regardless of specific use (hiker, bicycle, horse, or ATV). Most trail impact is attributable to the initial removal of vegetation and exposing bare soil, which will occur with all of the above uses or just the act of constructing a trail.

Trail impact occurs when a wide quad forces it's way down what was a narrow singletrack trail or a motorbike nails the throttle on a steep uphill and digs a deep trench...

Case in point: I got to ride Groton town forest recently - it took a few years but the trails have recovered nicely since they kicked the quads and dirt bikes outta there.

Anyway - isn't this thread about keeping the motorized enduro race OFF the non-motorized trails at Foxboro ?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Trail impact occurs regardless of specific use (hiker, bicycle, horse, or ATV). Most trail impact is attributable to the initial removal of vegetation and exposing bare soil, which will occur with all of the above uses or just the act of constructing a trail. The degree of impact is mostly dependent on environmental conditions (vegetation cover, soil type, soil moisture, slope, aspect, and precipitation). Limiting use types or the volume of use has little effect on the overall impact to trail conditions.

Considering the width and length of trails for any of these use types the area of impact relative to the total forest area is very small. With the exception of noise, a big problem for motorized use, the same arguments regarding trail impacts could be used to restrict any of our activities.

You are not seriusly suggesting that motorized bikes do not erode the trails any more than other user groups. Give us a break with that bs.

I've yet to see one of you guys answer the questions at hand. You're all off on your own agendas. This is about Foxboro and those issues previously mentioned. If you're going to muster all of your MX buddies to post here, stay on points: 1. Limiting the Endure to the yellow blazed trails in Foxboro 2. Actively addressing trail concerns; i.e. trail maintenance.

You're never going to win by suggesting that your damage is not more than other users. Compare the trails in Franklin and Wrentham to those in Foxboro and then try and make that argument.

Are any of you guys members of NETRA or some other MX organization?

[gixxerw]

Kinda like saying if a bunch of people living in the desert buy and register speedboats, the state owes 'em a lake.
Isn't the fee due to a motor vehicle requiring some sort of registration? It's surely not meant to be some sort of all-inclusive trail pass. And you'd think with all the people who own them, they'd be able to at least maintain the few legal areas they have to ride. What %age of motorized users you think can be bothered to do trailwork?


It is a trail pass per say the registration fee is to be used by the state to maintain the trails in each forest designated for motorized use. So if they had a fee for horses/hikers/MTB's it would give the state more money to open new trails and maintain the old ones better. But it is an unfortunate event when the governor takes all the funds raised by registration fee's and hunting lisence fee's and puts it in the general fund.
There is a large percentage of clubs that do work in all the forests but as was stated earlier quads and illegal use cause big problems. When it comes to riding two wheels is two wheels whether it be a bike or a dirtbike we all have problems with quad sized ruts and over widened trails we both like a challenging trail with obstacles. As far as the enduro on multi use trails it is once a year and they do get a special use permit $$$ mountain bikers could do the same.http://www.nedirtbikes.com check out some of the older posts here if you want to see quad problems just do a search for quad.

[Mr_Cheeze]

It is a trail pass per say the registration fee is to be used by the state to maintain the trails in each forest designated for motorized use. So if they had a fee for horses/hikers/MTB's it would give the state more money to open new trails and maintain the old ones better. But it is an unfortunate event when the governor takes all the funds raised by registration fee's and hunting lisence fee's and puts it in the general fund.

That last sentence says it all. Welcome to how government works. You can't assume that the state is responsible for the trails because you happen to pay a fee. It doesn't work like that.


As far as the enduro on multi use trails it is once a year and they do get a special use permit $$$ mountain bikers could do the same.

Special permits only allow NETRA to have an event whereby they make money for whatever cause, whether it be for profit or not. Nothing more, nothing less. They assume the right to set whatever course they wish, with the forest manager's approval, which is part of the problem here. There is absolutely no reason why that Enduro can't be restricted to the yellow blazed trails (MX trail). There are enough of them between the three forests. Those Enduro participants aren't going to miss using one small segment of trail over how ever many miles these events run.

BTW, NEMBA does have to get a permit to run an event on State property. The difference is, we don't say, "Well, we paid our money. Let the State fix the damage."

[gixxerw]

I think it is KPTR that maintains the foxboro/franklin/wrentham area and they have had many trail maintenance days in there i have participated in a few at Franklin. We have the same issue as you as far as unregistered illegal use by ATV's. I am not trying to argue with you or degrade what you do most guys that ride Dirt also ride MTB i use mine to scout a new trail before i ride it alot safer at MTB speeds to find the unsafe trail conditions. My point is we should work together foxboro f gilbert is one of the very few places out here everyone is still welcome. The state has alot of property that is out of reach for so many people beside MTB/horse/dirtbike they should be able to set aside a few more spaces but until they do we have to get along. Go over to the link i put in and check out some of the good people you are talking about they have a club section where you could contact the proper people. NETRA is just a sanctioning body the clubs do the actual work.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Thanks for the link, gixxerw. Wish I had that sooner.

Here is the link to their discussion of this topic:
http://www.nedirtbikes.com/content/Foxboro%2fF%25_Gilbert_Hills/m_62317/tm.htm

[gixxerw]

Yes that is me over there also. Both our groups have issues we could work on together. there is power in numbers. Northeastatv is a good guy also and the state has shut them out of every forest in the eastern part of the state because of lack of room. Imagine being able to ride the forests we had back in the early 80's?!!!!! When every forest was a multi use forest.

[oldcarkook]

I think it is KPTR that maintains the foxboro/franklin/wrentham area and they have had many trail maintenance days in there i have participated in a few at Franklin. We have the same issue as you as far as unregistered illegal use by ATV's. I am not trying to argue with you or degrade what you do most guys that ride Dirt also ride MTB i use mine to scout a new trail before i ride it alot safer at MTB speeds to find the unsafe trail conditions. My point is we should work together foxboro f gilbert is one of the very few places out here everyone is still welcome. The state has alot of property that is out of reach for so many people beside MTB/horse/dirtbike they should be able to set aside a few more spaces but until they do we have to get along. Sage advice. It is King Philip Trail Riders that have a Memorandum of Agreement with the State to perform MANY hours of work in the forest each year. I live in Wrentham, am a KPTR member, and I have participated in these work days. They are productive and they are a good faith effort.

The issue of fees is an interesting approach. While fees may accomplish something (I'm not really sure what) they will do nothing as far as resolving the problem of more and more people compressed into ever shrinking areas.

I understand how how ill will is created in these forums in any and all directions. I have taken pot shots at some interest groups myself in the past, and now I frankly regret that as I am of the view that if we don't all find ways to peacefully co-exist on these trail networks, then we're all going to lose.

The complaints of trail damage are legitimate complaints. But I frankly think that a good portion of this can be resolved through education which is where I started my participation in this thread. Educate all users about the effects of trail damage from all perspectives and encourage easy riding. I'm also a member of the Blue Ribbon Coaltion (http://www.sharetrails.org/) and Tread Lightly (http://www.treadlightly.org/) and I encourage all readers here to visit those websites, and to consider joining. This is the future like it or not.

Sometimes we get too self absorbed in our own little worlds to effectively view other sides of an issue. I have heard complaints from first responders about the difficulty of reaching injured MTB trail users in certain areas and a little ill will goes a long way. They have banned all dirt bikes and ATV's in Wrentham, Bellingham, and many other towns. There is very little area where a person can find to legally ride any more. This leads to illegal use of the trails and as regulatory interference broadens, you can be sure that illegal trail use will too. We need to work together to open up more areas and spread out so we don't cross contaminate each other's areas. The only way to do that is to get more real estate opened up and that is done at the legislative level.

Agree with me, disagree with me, whatever you like. But in the end the loudest (and unfortunately most funded) voices are generally the ones that get heard and acted upon.

Combine efforts and everyone wins. Divide efforts, and then it becomes a rumble with no real objective except to fight each other's interests.

If I go over to the equine forums and start slamming Mountain Bikers using trails in forests where Dirt Bikes are banned, it won't take long to get everyones knickers bunched up their backside and call for all wheeled instruments of death and destruction to leave the forest permanently. After that, we get those dreaded ant killing hiking boots banned and make everyone that hikes do it barefoot!

Work together gang. We can help each other and find ways to resolve these problems. Pissin' on each other only moves all of us closer to the locked gate.

[MattR]

You are correct gixxer, as the sponsering club KPTR checks with Ron regarding trail maint/repairs that he thinks are needed after the enduro and to get his permission to perform any work.

AMA/BRC/NETRA/KPTR

[Mr_Cheeze]

Perhaps something good can come out of this discussion after all, if for nothing other than mutual respect and, perhaps, cooperation in keeping out trails in the best condition possible. I hope you guys understand that this is all we are truly looking out for. As you can probably tell, there are some regulars here who are somehat in denial over the logical conclusion that, yes, mountain bikes do their share of damage. I don't understand how one could conclude that MBR's are less damaging than hikers. Not sure what trails he's been riding, but that's as silly a statement as suggesting that all publics lands should be open to eveyone.

This dialogue also comes at a good time before the upcoming SE Mass Nemba meeting.

FYI, I was out at Foxboro this past weekend. It looks as though a few of the blow-outs have been covered and/or blocked; by whom, I'm not sure. Could have easily been done by a couple of people in a short time. But there are still a few areas that need to be addressed to both groups. I have photos on my camera at home which I plan on posting here on which it will be obvious that MX'ers aren't the only guilty parties, although they may be the most culpable for creating. I'll address those further at a later time.

[bdee]

Trail impact occurs when a wide quad forces it's way down what was a narrow singletrack trail or a motorbike nails the throttle on a steep uphill and digs a deep trench...

Case in point: I got to ride Groton town forest recently - it took a few years but the trails have recovered nicely since they kicked the quads and dirt bikes outta there.

Anyway - isn't this thread about keeping the motorized enduro race OFF the non-motorized trails at Foxboro ?


Good lord man, why keep this discussion on point?? ;) It seems that the original point has been missed so I'll reiterate it for the umpteenth time:

All we would like to do is keep the ENDURO from running all over Foxboro SF.

We really don't have issues with sharing Foxboro - we're just getting tired of seeing it ragged out more and more each year with no maintenance done to counter the use.

The sore spot for a lot of us that ride in the area is that Foxboro is about the last place we have since the use in Wrentham and Franklin has killed the MTB riding in there (for the most part).

If motorized users stayed on the yellow loop in these parks we'd probably all be fine with it. Each user group likes it's own experience and for some reason MTB loses it's appeal when we're riding 12" deep mud holes that are 6 - 8 feet wide ala Franklin SF and large chunks of Wrentham. We simply don't want to see this in Foxboro.

No one wants to send you packing. But you've got to realize MX users are the top of the food chain, so to speak. In other words your actions carry the most impact and affect the trail, and other users experiences, quicker and more directly than the other users.

[gixxerw]

Franklin and wrentham if you would go and actually look at the damage was not done by 2 wheeled vehicles! It was done by illegal riding of locals who own the other type of 4 wheeled off road vehicle. Quads are of use for hunters farmers property owners to cut grass plow snow so on the problem with them they let anyone think they are an off road enthusiast with no training no respect and no reason to be out in the woods except it is the thing to do right now. Dirt biking looses it's appeal also when we use to have single track trails that were turned into highways because someone didn't have the skill to negotiate an obstacle and they created a trail around instead. I have property in RI and when i first moved in the trails were great mostly single track a few water crossings then in 5 years all the water crossings turned into swamps and the trails got widened to the point you could drive a hummer down them and not scratch the paint all due to unskilled quad riders.

[Jisch]

Sure there are examples where mtn bikes have caused trail erosion but I say that it would be the same if as many hikers were using the trails. [/FONT]

I sometimes go up to the Adirondacks and hike up Chimney Mountain (mostly to go caving). The trail up to the top of the mountain is heavily used by hikers only. Every year I go the trail is more and more eroded, its really amazing that just hikers can do that kind of damage. Of course the fact that the trail goes straight up the fall line doesn't help when it rains. Because the center of the trail gets slippery from the bare roots, people start walking on the edges. I've seen the "hikers" that use this route and trust me that getting the word out to AMC or some other hiking orgainization will not get to these folks.

I've also seen some bad damage from mtbers too, so we are not blameless, maybe "I" am blameless but "WE" are not. A rolling tire definitely makes less destruction than a foot in a boot, a sliding tire is much worse (thanks Mr. Obvious).

John

[gixxerw]

Portland Oregon has a restriction on the building of new roads. They did it to combat urban sprawl. If you build more or better roads leading out of the city then people will move further away. The distance people live from work has to do with the time it takes to get there not the miles. So with that the same can be said for dirt bikes. If you open up more land then more dirt bikes will be on them. For now you have the loop in Foxborough. You should be happy that you have that and stay off the trails where you are not allowed because you create too much damage.

[/quote]


Wow are you happy with the loops you have? The state gives dirtbikes all the small holes to ride in because no one else wants to use them am i happy i have legal places to bring my kids yes. Could they bigger and in more places yes. You don't get the point in the more land thing do you? the more area's to ride the less one place gets used beleive me when i say quads out number both our groups 4 to 1 they have out sold dirtbikes 5-1 for the last 5 years it takes alot of skill to be in the woods on two wheels whether it be peddling or hanging on to a dirtbike. ATV's/quads are not allowed in the state forest's in the east but somehow they have been in wrentham/foxboro/franklin do you think these riders are registered? I would love to go see the damage from an enduro as you call it i bet i can prove it had 4 wheels instead of two.
MTB's for instance come out of no where when you are on a trail can't hear them coming. I have seen good dirtbike trails ruined by someone wanting a good MTB trail by cutting every log out moving every rock and building 2x6 bridges over every hole. Now as for hiking do you think the hikers like having MTB's blasting by them on a down hill or are you going to tell me that everyone you ride with slows down to go past them. Have you ever ridden a dirtbike i can garantee you will find it a more full body work out then peddling if you are doing it right.

[bdee]

The big "enduro" (I don't know what else to call them - sorry) rides in Foxboro actually do cause issues because when you add enough cheat lines (straightened corners, ride arounds etc..) the trails get a lot wider. I attribute this to newer riders looking to keep up with the group. This happens in MTB/horseback riding/hiking as well. The difference is it takes more than one ride for a new route to get established if it's because of bikes/horseshikers.

I'd agree that ATV use is the main culprit in a place like Franklin SF, the Trunkline trail, and in Wrentham SF as well. Before this thread de-evloved we were just talking about the enduro ride aftermath in Foxboro and what to do about it. I'm as guilty of digressing as everyone else but it would be nice to get back on topic. Generally speaking I've never had a huge issue with sharing the woods with motorcycles (ATVs yes).

The last couple of years of enduro rides in Foxboro have started to irritate plenty of MTBers as we share the same trails - and have had plenty of trails we've built roached.

The questions I have are -

Why are there more cheat lines each ride?

What's the deal with trenching the trails?

Why can't the participants tread more lightly on some of the non-motorized trails?

Why aren't we working to armor and reroute some of the old and poorly designed (straight up hills) shared trails? There's enough rock in Foxboro to build challenging trails that could take abuse and both user groups could enjoy them.

[TeamT]

As a long time biker and ex-enduro rider I can tell you that the damage done is almost the same by bikes and motos. Sure an enduro causes some damages to the trail and sometimes lines get hacked up, this is natural and repairs itself over time. That is the nature of an organized event. As a long time mountain bike racer I have seen horrible devastation done to trails as well, sometimes its the weather, sometimes its bad trail design and sometimes its just the volume of bikes at an organized event. Are you people really so stupid to suggest we don't race bikes mountain bikes in the woods anymore either? How about cyclocross? Is the damage to city parks to much, you should see the damage we cause. Should we not do that either?

Take the example of Vietnam, I know this well as I have lived off College street since 91. Back when Vietnam was a series of tight trails that you could barely fit a dirt bike through, it was a riding paradise. I used to Mtn. bike in there back then (on my Trek 930) and it was the best there was in NE. Do you know what ruined Vietnam? Bikes, thats right, bikes! And you will never convince me otherwise. Those trails were tight and nobody deviated from the line until all you people showed up there on your mountain bikes and made cut lines. You took out the climbs by cutting across the top and bottom of hills, you ruined what you claim to covet now. Anybody who rode nam back in the day must weep for what is has become. I know I do.

I still belong to NETRA even though I have not raced an Enduro since 2003, I took the B high point by the way. I still ride the Mtn bike often although never in Vietnam, I really am to disgusted at what is has become. I head off to other great trails from my house that are not so played out. I still support NEMBA with a nice donation every year. The moral of this story, don't point the bone at others when your house is probably as filthy or worse.

You need to stay together with the NETRA people, this is about using the land as we see fit. Not serving your own goals. I sure as hell hope some of these posters don't speak on behalf of NEMBA.

Jim

[bdee]

As a long time biker and ex-enduro rider I can tell you that the damage done is almost the same by bikes and motos. Sure an enduro causes some damages to the trail and sometimes lines get hacked up, this is natural and repairs itself over time. That is the nature of an organized event. As a long time mountain bike racer I have seen horrible devastation done to trails as well, sometimes its the weather, sometimes its bad trail design and sometimes its just the volume of bikes at an organized event. Are you people really so stupid to suggest we don't race bikes mountain bikes in the woods anymore either? How about cyclocross? Is the damage to city parks to much, you should see the damage we cause. Should we not do that either?

Take the example of Vietnam, I know this well as I have lived off College street since 91. Back when Vietnam was a series of tight trails that you could barely fit a dirt bike through, it was a riding paradise. I used to Mtn. bike in there back then (on my Trek 930) and it was the best there was in NE. Do you know what ruined Vietnam? Bikes, thats right, bikes! And you will never convince me otherwise. Those trails were tight and nobody deviated from the line until all you people showed up there on your mountain bikes and made cut lines. You took out the climbs by cutting across the top and bottom of hills, you ruined what you claim to covet now. Anybody who rode nam back in the day must weep for what is has become. I know I do.

I still belong to NETRA even though I have not raced an Enduro since 2003, I took the B high point by the way. I still ride the Mtn bike often although never in Vietnam, I really am to disgusted at what is has become. I head off to other great trails from my house that are not so played out. I still support NEMBA with a nice donation every year. The moral of this story, don't point the bone at others when your house is probably as filthy or worse.

You need to stay together with the NETRA people, this is about using the land as we see fit. Not serving your own goals. I sure as hell hope some of these posters don't speak on behalf of NEMBA.

Jim

Wow hope you got that all of your chest. Nice rant without really discussing anything brought up above. When did anyone say anything about bike races? Relax, no one wants to mess with you, or your trails, or question how you ride or how awesome of a rider you are. Your the man Jim. Don't worry, that much is clear.

Could someone steer this back on point? Because I still want to know why we're held accountable for eveything some fool on a bike does but Enduro riders can do whatever/whenever they want during an event in a multi-use forest. I only ask this because I can gauranf**kingtee you that we sure as hell couldn't get away with it.

[mtbtom]

As a long time biker and ex-enduro rider I can tell you that the damage done is almost the same by bikes and motos.

No, motorized usage has MUCH more impact on trails than bikes. Let's get a grip on reality.

[gixxerw]

NEMBA's website lists 47 places in MAss where there are marked trail systems for MTB riding. This year at a meeting in Georgetown (about forest usage) The MAss Dept of Conservation and Recreation spokesperson (Gary Briere) mentioned that there are over 300 places in the states wooded areas (including state lands and local town own lands) that have organized trail systems for bicycle riding. We have 7, we pay a yearly registration fee to ride in these 7 areas. Most of the areas are in the Berkshires.
With this statement do you see why when some one says "stay on your own trails" that (i love this description) "MXers" get up in arms. Most people that ride woods are not MXers as you put it also would you like the description over grown BMX riders?
You say the damage to nam took years by thousands of riders well if you do such good trail maintenance why is there any damage at all?

[TeamT]

Wow hope you got that all of your chest. Nice rant without really discussing anything brought up above. When did anyone say anything about bike races? Relax, no one wants to mess with you, or your trails, or question how you ride or how awesome of a rider you are. Your the man Jim. Don't worry, that much is clear.

Could someone steer this back on point? Because I still want to know why we're held accountable for eveything some fool on a bike does but Enduro riders can do whatever/whenever they want during an event in a multi-use forest. I only ask this because I can gauranf**kingtee you that we sure as hell couldn't get away with it.

This is all you have to say? Other than being a jerk, what was your point in attacking me? While some of my post may be a rant and a few shots about being fast, it made a perfect point, bicycles cause a lot of damage at organized events and I would say I summed it up perfectly in the last paragraph, work together for open access. Don't serve your own goals because you think the woods would be better without dirt bikes. Our goal should be open access. The reason the Foxboro, Wrentham and Franklin trails are so played our is because those are the last three legal riding spots in eastern MA. They lost access and we may very well be next.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Team, you are way off base, man. You haven't followed this thread if you believe that the agenda here is about thinking "the woods would be better without dirt bikes". It's only been repeated several times that we have no such agenda.

I suggest you start at the beginning of this thread, take in the specific issues brought to light, and - this is the important part - think about it before replying with more of your ideas as to what you wrongly believe our agenda to be. This discussion has been lively but friendly up to this point. Don't come here and start throwing stones with erroneous implications.

[TeamT]

I have now reread the thread twice because I am told I don't get it. What I do know is this, Friendly, not really. Pointless and one sided, for sure. As far as me throwing stones, if pleading for teamwork is throwing stones, fine.

I appreciate your instructions on how to properly post, this will really change my life, thanks. As far as me getting your agenda wrong, I think you have a one sided view of the world and on that I think I am correct. To suggest that KPTR (NETRA) does not maintain Foxboro is ridiculous, in fact i bet they have logged more hours with the park than any group. It should be public record as it is required under their land use agreement. Sure it may be self serving as it allows them to hold their events but it's trail work none the less.

I will give you props on your cunning ability to read Ron C at Foxboro, he really does support the enduro crowd and their causes.

[Mr_Cheeze]

The suggestion that KPTR does not maintain Foxboro (we're only talking about Foxboro here, not Franklin, not Wrentham) is based on lack of evidence to the contrary. It's that simple, and you claiming or betting otherwise doesn't suddenly change it. Neither does claiming to be a diplomat for teamwork make it so after you come in here and accuse us of having an extreme agenda; i.e. removal of dirt bikes from the forest. That's a pretty big stone to be sure. Give an example where that was ever implied. You can't because it wasn't.

As for being one sided, funny, because there has been an influx of new forum members specifically for this thread by representatives of the other side of the arguments. They said their pieces, and we responded in kind. That pretty much makes it a 2-sided discussion. Do you expect us to just come out and say, "Ok, you guys are right! Our bad. Sorry, let the Enduro go where it may! And don't worry about those trails... they fix themselves!" What is it that you expect out of dialogue? There's one side, and then there's another. You say something that is wrong, as you have, it's going to get called on.

Now that we have things in order, maybe you could educate us on how Mr. Clough is serving the good of the forest by allowing the Enduro to run roughshod over the trail in question.

[trailburn]

The enduro causes trail wear and that sucks, especially for anyone who put time into the place. Hopefully, there's some perspective to be gained by knowing that NETRA/KPTR responsibly rescheduled the event from early June when we'd just come through weeks of rain. The race just happened on 9/24. Already we've heard here some of the cuts have been blocked/repaired. One's satisfaction with the pace or quality of the work is a matter of perspective.


I see some common ground through this thread. There is one place where I don't see consensus on the key points identified by individuals.

My disagreement stems from what I understand to be NEMBA's mission. From our bylaws:

"The New England Mountain Bike Association is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting sustainable trail access for mountain bicyclists, and to maintaining the trails on which mountain bikers ride. NEMBA supports the conservation of open spaces and is committed to educating mountain bicyclists to ride sensitively and responsibly in order to protect the natural environment and the experience of other trail users."

So, my disagreement and what I venture causes upset for dirt biker riders is the advocacy against the legally permitted once per year enduro. Since I disagree, and my read of the bylaws doesn't back the idea of "keeping the enduro off (our) trails," I can't see that as an agreeable or common point. Now, repair of damaged trails by NETRA/KPTR to the land manager's standard is something I agree with. Perhaps this is the point of the photo and letters. If so, thank you SENEMBA.

[recum_MTB]

Interesting thread. Everyone is guilty of taking shots at the various interest groups, but it's not fair to single anyone out (like TeamT -- he's just reacting to what others have said). I am a MTB'er and dirt biker. Ride both at Foxboro. Hopefully NETRA and Nemba can work togther and address Nemba's concerns about the enduro events, which may be valid and should be addressed (I say "may" only b/c I do not purport to know any of the facts).

As for some of the other topics discussed here, it would be interesting to take a poll of our fellow MTB'ers and see what their views are towards dirt bike users. The dirt bike community tends to be very defensive about what Nemba's agenda might be b/c of how dirt bikers believe they are perceived by the majority of MTB'ers. Doesn't mean there is a hidden agenda of course, but there's suspicion naturally. I have had many conversations with MTB'ers out on the trails and the results seem to be fairly mixed in terms of how they view dirt bike use -- some want the trails to themselves while others appreciate the fact that dirt bikers created many of the trails eons ago. It's a mixed bag. I am glad I participate in multiple land use activities (climbing, hiking, MTB and dirt biking). It keeps me somewhat balanced (excuse pun).

[TeamT]

The suggestion that KPTR does not maintain Foxboro (we're only talking about Foxboro here, not Franklin, not Wrentham) is based on lack of evidence to the contrary. It's that simple, and you claiming or betting otherwise doesn't suddenly change it. Neither does claiming to be a diplomat for teamwork make it so after you come in here and accuse us of having an extreme agenda; i.e. removal of dirt bikes from the forest. That's a pretty big stone to be sure. Give an example where that was ever implied. You can't because it wasn't.

As for being one sided, funny, because there has been an influx of new forum members specifically for this thread by representatives of the other side of the arguments. They said their pieces, and we responded in kind. That pretty much makes it a 2-sided discussion. Do you expect us to just come out and say, "Ok, you guys are right! Our bad. Sorry, let the Enduro go where it may! And don't worry about those trails... they fix themselves!" What is it that you expect out of dialogue? There's one side, and then there's another. You say something that is wrong, as you have, it's going to get called on.

Now that we have things in order, maybe you could educate us on how Mr. Clough is serving the good of the forest by allowing the Enduro to run roughshod over the trail in question.

1. I am the model of teamwork, I suggested it in the beginning and I have been consistent all along. As far as your agenda you have been very clear, limited access. I am against that as a Mtn Biker, to be clear I don't even own a dirt bike anymore. I want all trails open, I will ride on all trails except where safety to others is a concern. This is my agenda, open access.

2. Just because I don't post inane crap all the time don't confuse me with being a new member. As far as me being wrong, on the contrary. I have said nothing wrong. I see both sides with clarity, I think you have have a one-sided view. My original point was accurate, don't compare an event with regular damage. Events cause damage, it can be from bikes or motorcycles. I have seen horrible damage caused by bikes and know it can be repaired. Taking pictures and running to the DEM resolves nothing, other than being a punk. It's an event and causes damage, its once a year, move on as the dirt bikes will. I hardly ever see them in Foxboro.

3. Having spent time with Ron I can tell you he hates the picture taking and whining he gets from the bikers. All he ever hears is complaints and always from the bikers about the motorcycles. The same bikers that leave their trash and cut new trails and reopen closed ones. Ron is sympathtic to the enduro crowd because he sees them as a group that helps him with the forest and causes him little trouble. As far as serving the good of the forest, grow up and don't be so naive.

[gixxerw]

I am guessing if you took a poll of MTBer's you would find that alot of them also ride dirtbikes it is good training in the off season from racing and also a good way to scout new trail without bringing due notice from the wrong people. We enjoy the same challenges in riding technical trails with some good obstacles.

[Mr_Cheeze]

1. I am the model of teamwork, I suggested it in the beginning and I have been consistent all along. As far as your agenda you have been very clear, limited access. I am against that as a Mtn Biker, to be clear I don't even own a dirt bike anymore. I want all trails open, I will ride on all trails except where safety to others is a concern. This is my agenda, open access.

We will agree to disagree on this point. I simply do not feel that as the population continues to grow in already densely populated Eastern Mass, that open access is reasonable.


My original point was accurate, don't compare an event with regular damage. Events cause damage, it can be from bikes or motorcycles. I have seen horrible damage caused by bikes and know it can be repaired. Taking pictures and running to the DEM resolves nothing, other than being a punk. It's an event and causes damage, its once a year, move on as the dirt bikes will. I hardly ever see them in Foxboro.

Two separate issues. Event damage and responsible post event maintenance is one. Regular damage, which is harder to track, but easier to fix, is another. Do you expect that KPTR should just "move on" after an enduro, leaving the forest to just "recover on it's own" as ohers have suggested?


3. Having spent time with Ron I can tell you he hates the picture taking and whining he gets from the bikers. All he ever hears is complaints and always from the bikers about the motorcycles. The same bikers that leave their trash and cut new trails and reopen closed ones. Ron is sympathtic to the enduro crowd because he sees them as a group that helps him with the forest and causes him little trouble. As far as serving the good of the forest, grow up and don't be so naive.

Good for you, having Ron on your side. It's what I've been told already, so that doesn't surprise me. But the only reason Ron is sympathetic, as you say, to the Enduro crowd is because they raise money, some of which goes to the forest, as fees or whatever. Unfortunately, we have no recourse in the like. Kind of sad that petty politics holds sway over how the forest manager makes his decisions vis-a-vis coursing out the enduro. If I didn't know any better, one might even suggest that Mr. Clough is flipping the veritable finger at the whining, picture taking MBR's. It is ironic that the forest manager, an environmental position, would side with someone whose agenda is obviously not environmentally friendly.

[trailburn]

Insanity--"repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results." Applies to any number of on-the-ground or post/counter post efforts here. Let he who is without guilt post the first reply.

[Slappy]

Hey, as long as we can all agree that quads suck I'm happy!

:D

[trailburn]

Perfect reply! I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. Nice to have some tongue in cheek.

[TheHare]

Hey, as long as we can all agree that quads suck I'm happy!

:D

AGREED!

Now... Move this to the "Trail Care Events" forum and it was actually productive.

[TeamT]

Good for you, having Ron on your side.

Just to be clear, since your reading comprehension stinks, I do not have a side. I have an open access agenda, you have a side. Go back and read your own good advice, think, then type.

[gixxerw]

Enviromentally freindly? If the true enviromental whackos heard you say that MTBing is enviromentally freindly they would laugh at you because the only thing they consider freindly is staying out of the forest all together!!!!!! Both our groups are considered out casts or rebels. The whole point of this was to find common ground in foxboro right well the info is there to contact the right people to get things done. Why don't we schedule a co-work party trail maintenance day MTB/dirtbike Nemba/NETRA and have an informal meeting of the minds at the same time over the whole of F gilbert not just one area.

[TeamT]

I really am only posting to shake that "Newbie" status as a poster. I could really give a crap!

Jim

[Slappy]

Why don't we schedule a co-work party trail maintenance day MTB/dirtbike Nemba/NETRA and have an informal meeting of the minds at the same time over the whole of F gilbert not just one area.

Ding ding .... give that man a kewpie doll - I think he might be on to something there!
Seriously though - quads suck. I'm cool with sharing more forests with 'MX'ers (on trails that are properly built to handle them of course and as long as they make a serious effort to keep up with maintenance, [which I really don't think they'll be able to without a serious change in the mindset of most motorized users - ie - we paid our $$, the state should be doing the work, which isn't going to happen]). And part of the charter for ANY event held on public land should include returning the area to pre-event conditions. Otherwise, it should take place on private property or not at all.

[Slappy]

I really am only posting to shake that "Newbie" status as a poster. I could really give a crap!

Jim

You can edit that in your profile and save some typing. ;)

[gixxerw]

The club for that forest does work all the time. Most events are held on private land for that exact reason the state wants nothing to do with it. as far as we paid our money let the state deal with it, the forest and all it's employees are paid in part by recreational vehicle registrations, hunting lisences, and special stamps so yes a trail stamp for MTB/Horse would help out. Now you also said events should be held on private land does that include MTB events because last i heard dirtbikes weren't allowed on ski slopes in the summer or winter and deffinately not in all the state forests or veitnam any more. My statement that we have a co-work party was to put aside the differances here and work together to preserve what we have not to prove who is right or wrong. See your last statement gives concern to alot of riders "not at all" be more careful on your wording taken out of context it takes on a whole new meaning.
Ding ding .... give that man a kewpie doll - I think he might be on to something there!
Seriously though - quads suck. I'm cool with sharing more forests with 'MX'ers (on trails that are properly built to handle them of course and as long as they make a serious effort to keep up with maintenance, [which I really don't think they'll be able to without a serious change in the mindset of most motorized users - ie - we paid our $$, the state should be doing the work, which isn't going to happen]). And part of the charter for ANY event held on public land should include returning the area to pre-event conditions. Otherwise, it should take place on private property or not at all.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Just to be clear, since your reading comprehension stinks, I do not have a side. I have an open access agenda, you have a side. Go back and read your own good advice, think, then type.

So now we're splitting hairs? Your SIDE is with the Enduro crowd and the notion that they should be able to go where they want; hence, open access. But go ahead and keep antagonizing us bad guys, Mr. Teamwork. See if it serves whatever purpose you have.

[Slappy]

Now you also said events should be held on private land does that include MTB events because last i heard dirtbikes weren't allowed on ski slopes in the summer or winter and deffinately not in all the state forests or veitnam any more. .... See your last statement gives concern to alot of riders "not at all" be more careful on your wording taken out of context it takes on a whole new meaning.

Sorry - I don't understand the first question - I'm with you until you get to the dirtbikes on ski-slopes then...??? Not sure about what I can do about being taken out of context either...pretty sure not saying anything at all is the only way to avoid that and god (and my family and friends) knows, shutting up is not an option for me. :har:

Pushing for 'open access' can take on a whole new meaning too - where do you draw the line on who should have access to all trails? Dirt bikes? ATVs? Jeeps and rockcrawlers? What about all mud boggers? Shouldn't they be allowed to make 1/4 mile trenches 4' deep and full of muck in the state forests? Why not? (Or do the ATV's already have the market cornered on that?)

But yes, that includes MTB events as far as I'm concerned. I don't wanna go show up at my favorite skinny singletrack the week after an XC race was held in the rain and see the the place trashed with ruts and trail braids and gu packets all over the f'ing place that I'm gonna have to spend the next few months fixing/cleaning up after only to have them come back and trash the place again the following season (sound familiar?). I'm probably in the minority around here, but personally I could give a damn if there was never another race or big 'event' of any sort ever again. The very least that should be done is for the event organizers to ensure the trails are restored afterward. Barring that, screw 'em; let 'em find some other place to trash. Why should they have the right to do it on public land and expect others to clean up after them? Take the same event, to a ski area or farm and I could give a damn about what the owners decide to do with their private property. In that case, it's their business and their headache to deal with.

As for Nam - why not do the same thing we did when we wanted a place we could build trails the way we wanted without having to go thru the state? Get together and buy land outright. You don't have to register if you're only going on private property correct? Take all that registration $$ you're getting nothing for and put it into real estate instead. Who knows, the state might miss the $$ and be willing to make some access concessions to get it back.

[Mr_Cheeze]

As for Nam - why not do the same thing we did when we wanted a place we could build trails the way we wanted without having to go thru the state? Get together and buy land outright. You don't have to register if you're only going on private property correct? Take all that registration $$ you're getting nothing for and put it into real estate instead. Who knows, the state might miss the $$ and be willing to make some access concessions to get it back.

Now that's the best suggestion I've seen yet. What a novel idea!

[TeamT]

So now we're splitting hairs? Your SIDE is with the Enduro crowd and the notion that they should be able to go where they want; hence, open access. But go ahead and keep antagonizing us bad guys, Mr. Teamwork. See if it serves whatever purpose you have.

Just to be clear, since you seem intent on rewriting what I have said, and doing it incorrectly. I have no side, I am for open access. Do you get it? I don't support the enduro crowd or the mtn bike crowd, again I support open trail access. Yet if you support open access I am with you all. I want to ride my bike down any trail I please without some jerk telling me this is their trail. I ride horse trails and hiking trails and I always yield the right of way to families or big dumb beasts and the horses they are riding. The pond loop, the trail from the ranger station, the acorn trail, I ride them all as do most of the Mtn Bike crowd, yet we are not supposed to be on any of them! You see, I believe in open access.

Don't get shitty because I have pleaded for teamwork. As far as my purpose, today it's been to help you see the light bra. Don't hate me because I'm right.

[Mr_Cheeze]

First off, I will apologize for allowing my passions to get the better of me. My "shittiness", as you say, has more to do with having a low tolerance for condescension. Going off is counterproductive here, and I will try and maintain myself henceforth.

You started your contributions, TeamT, complaining that this discussion has been one sided, and you took a hostile tact. We have a position... two actually. They have been carefully explained. I'm sticking to them. If that makes me "one sided" in your mind, so be it. Doesn't make me wrong or a thread despot. So it makes little sense to make issue of us having issues. I am considering every argument, even those of member on another discussion forum for dirt bikers. In fact, those guys have been very friendly and open to discussion, making some great points which has allowed me to better understand why these issues are sensitive to them.

And I actually do understand why you support open access, TeamT. I can also see how you feel that this position is beneficial to everyone. I strongly disagree, but I understand it. Fine. Let's leave it there for the time being, because I believe its a separate issue from the Enduro point. Perhaps you feel that a minor capitulation on a re-routing compromise is just one step towards more loss of access. Am I correct in that assessment? For the sake of this discussion, I'll say that is right. Considering that Clough has no bias towards mountain bikers or NEMBA, I think that the dirt bikers have nothing to worry about as far as losing any ground in Foxboro. And I promise you, it's not my secret agenda.

Let's go back a couple of years or so. This particular trail where we are looking to steer the Enduro away from, it was fairly recently built by NEMBA volunteers after an adjacent trail was closed. Maybe someone can give us a more accurate time table on this. Now, I'm guessing that the Enduro ran through this former trail, and they just assumed the new one. Are they to be blamed for it? Not necessarily. One significant thing should have happened that probably didn't. Mr. Clough, or whomever was the forest manager at that time, should have advised the NEMBA organizers that their trail was going to be used by the Enduro, because it's pretty obvious that the trail was built on the asusmption that it was going to be deemed strictly non-motorized. Bearing this in mind, they forged ahead with a particular trail design and turned out a rather neat Mountain Bike trail which has been since "broken in" by Enduros, changing the character of the trail much faster than what was expected. Fine. We've dealt with it, and still use it. It's still a good trail. However, the nature of it - a narrow, ridge-like trail - is such that it can't take much more abuse before compromising it's integrity. That said, I feel, and this is the position here, TeamT, one sided as it may be, that the prudent thing would be to detour the Enduro around this section. Seems like a reasonable enough request, especially considering that it is entirely possible to do without encroaching on hiking trails or any other sensitive land.


As far as my purpose, today it's been to help you see the light bra.

I prefer no bra, but ok, see thru is good, too.

I hope that we're all getting along now.
http://www.nevadacure.org/home/Local/James/James1Jpg2.jpg

[C.P.]

I've posted somewhere near the top, and had time to read some of this.
I'm a mountain biker who rides Foxboro weekly (yeah and sometimes weakly) pretty much year round, and some of you may know me from the SEMASS B.O.D.
First, let it be known, I have no problems with the motocross loop in Foxboro. Yes, others indeed have differing opinions, this is just from my perspective.

Some more history for those that dont know...some has been touched on by Cheeze above.
About 5 years ago, we got approval from Ron and spent a bunch of weekends re-routing a long section of (at the time - non-motorized) trail to eliminate an old worn, widened, rocky trail that when originally cut years ago, went right up and down a fall line. This involved a whole lot of man hours, and dedication. This particular new trail we cut is not a part of the legal motorcross route as it is marked on the maps today. When we laid the trail re-route out, we used all the best trail installation techniques available to us, IE: an inclinometer, GPS etc and used proven trail building methods including many man hours installing bench cuts, base hardeneing etc, and many hours of additional evenings working to get this completed, with the hope that the trail would be sustinable for years. We wanted a showcase piece, that woud last.

Still with me here? Were still about 4-5 years back...Well, It was about 2/3's finished (trail was "cut" but the bench cuts were not fully completed from end to end), when we got word that the trail was a mess sometime a few days after an enduro event had been routed right down the new surface. We didn't even KNOW that an enduro was to be routed on this trail. Talk about a kick to the gut. The hard work we did to keep a nice tight trail, was pretty well roosted up with widened berms at all the tight turns, and deep trenches from throttle grabbing efforts the riders must have had to make, to get going back to some kind of ridable speed after making their dabbed corrections in those tight turns. Some of the riders even went off trail when the turn was too tight, (obviously tighter then "lock to lock" that a typical motorcross triple clamp fork could handle), or if easier, just cutting the turn on the inside line. Now, mind you, I KNOW, not every rider did this, so I'm not attacking anyone/everyone directly, but just one short walk down this trail after that first enduro, and I can tell you it was going to never be the same.

Fast forward to today. The Enduro has continued to be routed down this trail, and every year, it gets trashed, and just a little bit wider. And yet, here in this thread, I've heard a bunch of different people reason that the trail "heals itself" and such. Is it me, or if left ignorred, we all "get used to" the looks of this widened trail....or do we really.
In the last few years, the Enduro has really left it's mark on this partiucular trail, and I'm not the only one whos taken note. More and more mtn bike riders have been commenting, "wow, foxboro is really getting worn out, compared to what it used to be"...and I agree. Yes we have a part in its deterioration too, even though statistics show mountain biking is in fact waning in the last couple years (and it must be, because the weekly thursday ride that we've been running here in foxboro used to have up to 15 riders - EVERY week. But the last 3 years, not so many.)

I can speculate that one real good reason why Foxboro is pretty rough in a bunch of sections (and I'm only speaking of the NON motorcross section here) just so happens to be because we haven't really been actively doing a whole lot of trail work in Foxboro in at least 3 or so years (to my recollection). Yeah, we still go around with the chainsaw in the spring, and cut downfalls for Ron, clear branches, and have even fixed a couple of crossings, or cleaned up after the enduro a little (albeit at most 80 to 100 man hours/yr max) - but we really haven't done the kind of scope projects we used to, the ones that got noticed, and had long term results...and this is all for one pretty good reason I'm sure.

When I go around and ask, "If we host a trailwork day at foxboro, will you show your support?" Most shrug their shoulders and simply say, "why?" "what benefit is it for me to come on over and shovel dirt building/repairing a trail I might have to come fix (for the same reason) every year?". And, as a trail boss, I can tell you, this can lead to personally questioning your own sanity as to whether it's worth going through the effort to organize a trail work day, especially when others are just giving up.

Give up?!!! Not me! Maybe this needs a different approach.

What would it take to get together as a group, and walk the section of trail we re-routed a couple years ago, and find a way to talk about routing the enduro so it doesn't use this and other trails that are marked (on the official map) as non motorized use trails. It might quiet things down a bit if we all have an agreement we can all live with.

[TeamT]

And I actually do understand why you support open access, TeamT. I can also see how you feel that this position is beneficial to everyone.

I'm with you bra, (east coast bro) we almost have the same agenda. I am for all users of the forest to have access including bikes, as bicycle riding and racing is all I do now this is important to me. When all interested parties work for open access we will all have a place to ride, for me and my two daughters. I propose the next step is an imperial pint of Gunniess!

[Mr_Cheeze]

I've posted somewhere near the top, and had time to read some of this.

What would it take to get together as a group, and walk the section of trail we re-routed a couple years ago, and find a way to talk about routing the enduro so it doesn't use this and other trails that are marked (on the official map) as non motorized use trails. It might quiet things down a bit if we all have an agreement we can all live with.

FYI, I was informed on this dirt bike forum( http://www.nedirtbikes.com/content/m_62317/mpage_2/tm.htm ), KPTR are holding a meeting this coming Tuesday evening at 8:00 and our views concerning the Enduro routing are welcome. I cannot commit to going at this time, but in case anyone else is interested, I am awaiting a PM from Joe Cronin on the place of the meeting. They seem pretty amenable to hearing our concerns. I think that whomever courses the event does not realize they could easily bypass this section onto High Rock Road. The map doesn't show where it reconnects to that same trail at the end of the Mountain Bike Loop, but anyone who rides there often will know exactly what I'm talking about.

The thing that bugs me is that Mr. Clough knows this as well. Has he ever offered it up as a resolution? If not, why? I would bet that those Enduro guys would have little problem with the rerouting, as long as it doesn't significantly cut the distance, which it does not.

All of that said, I'm up for helping out however I can, C.P. I am planning on attending the SE Mass NEMBA meeting and would like to get more involved with doing what we can at Foxboro, especially if we can resolve this issue.

[trailburn]

Break out the studded tires. The olive branch is out there and hell may be freezing over next Tuesday night.

Perhaps a cease fire for all until an update from the summit?

[gixxerw]

This is exactly what is happening in RI a group called RIOHVA has a 450K dollar grant to buy land specifically to set up riding trails for dirtbikes now as i have said if NEMBA wanted in on a legal place to ride in RI wouldn't it be prudent to contact someone with combined forces we could have a real nice place again in RI for both our groups to ride. We would however have to create multi use trails that both groups would have to share. The ski slope thing was about down hill mountain biking events held at wachusset. Most of the races i do (harescrambles) are on private property and the land is prepared/repaired before and after the race to the owners satisfaction.


Now that's the best suggestion I've seen yet. What a novel idea!

[Mr_Cheeze]

This is exactly what is happening in RI a group called RIOHVA has a 450K dollar grant to buy land specifically to set up riding trails for dirtbikes now as i have said if NEMBA wanted in on a legal place to ride in RI wouldn't it be prudent to contact someone with combined forces we could have a real nice place again in RI for both our groups to ride. We would however have to create multi use trails that both groups would have to share. The ski slope thing was about down hill mountain biking events held at wachusset. Most of the races i do (harescrambles) are on private property and the land is prepared/repaired before and after the race to the owners satisfaction.

I was being sarcastic. NEMBA did exactly that with land in Vietnam. I'm not learned on exactly how all of that went down, but it might be in the interest of NETRA and/or KPTR to find out. In Taunton, there are sections of private property off of Rocky Woods Rd. and Glebe St. that are used often by dirt bikes, and, unfortunately, ATV's. This could potentially be something to look at for you guys. It used to be a decent place for mountain biking, but not so much any more due to trail degradation.

[geezer]

There are acres of places for NEMBA to ride in RI. If the NETRA crowd didn't trash both the public and private areas so badly 3 or 4 years ago they might still have a decent place to ride. There are probably still a few private landowners who might like to invite you back for a "Turkey Shoot" of their own. It has been about 4 years since NETRA's last enduro through Arcadia Forest and there is still some very bad feelings about it by several private landowners who had no idea about it until they discovered their newly blazed trails.

[TeamT]

KPTR are holding a meeting this coming Tuesday evening at 8:00 and our views concerning the Enduro routing are welcome.


Back when I was a member they used to meet at the VFW in Wrentham on 1A, I assume they still do.

[gixxerw]

Well not to get you upset again but there is an enduro that runs thru rocky woods. But again it comes back to people going back to ride courses they aren't suppose to be on after an event and ATV use anywhere they please. I work in taunton/n. dighton on spring street so i know exactly where you are talking about.

[Slappy]

This is exactly what is happening in RI a group called RIOHVA has a 450K dollar grant to buy land specifically to set up riding trails for dirtbikes now as i have said if NEMBA wanted in on a legal place to ride in RI wouldn't it be prudent to contact someone with combined forces we could have a real nice place again in RI for both our groups to ride. We would however have to create multi use trails that both groups would have to share. The ski slope thing was about down hill mountain biking events held at wachusset. Most of the races i do (harescrambles) are on private property and the land is prepared/repaired before and after the race to the owners satisfaction.

I like the idea of the shared private trail stash a lot. Specially if there would be a way to work in some shuttle-able downhill runs with plenty of berms, jumps etc that would work well for both groups (the kind of stuff we can't build on public lands).
As for downhilling in MA, we've got far less places to go than motorized users: 1 to be exact - Jiminy Peak in the Berkshires. $22 a day cheap. Wachusett used to do one race a year on snow, but that's long gone. You can't get near the trails there on a mtb - it's strictly verboten (trust me - I live right across town from the place. No riding to be had. :mad: )

[gixxerw]

We ride trails at Jiminy peak when we ride pittsfeild SF. I wish i lived closer to pittsfeild so far seems to be the best riding to be had right now.