Foxboro post Enduro damage?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Anyone been to Foxboro yet? Just wondering how bad it is.

[montana]

It is chewed up. I was on the loops yesterday and there is lots of loose rock, loose dirt and some trenches. They have as much a right as we do there so look at it as more of a challenge.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I'm not so concerned about the fact that they have a right to access. What concerns me is that these guys, being NETRA, claim to perform trail maintenance following these events, and yet, I've never seen evidence of it having actually happened. You see how bad Foxboro is getting. Besides the erosion from weather and usage, lots of sally lines have been created for no reason other than too many amateur riders who can't be bothered to attempt riding the challenging lines. The trails behind the tower on High Top Hill... You've seen them. You think all of those shortcuts and sally lines are a good thing? I'm sure the enduro made matters worse. There are already couple of trails that I know of that are close to getting closed off as others have. It's nigh time that organizations like NETRA take some responsibility. I have written to Frank Frey (president@netra.org) more than once. I keep getting the same type of vague assurances that they do perform maintenance. When I flat out challenged Mr. Frey when and where they organize at F. Gilbert Hills, I've yet to get a specific reply.

[bdee]

Sh*t, didn't realize there was one recently. Things are bad enough on the outer loops as it is (some nice deep trenching etc. - and loads of sally lines). I don't mind sharing the park with them, honestly. That said I wish more of them would learn how to ride their machines instead of cutting easier lines. In other words don't show up if you can't ride what's already there. I get just as pissed at MTBers/hikers/equestrians/ATV riders, etc who cut easier lines. Accept the challenge and deal with it however you need to (like maybe walk your bike/MX if you can't ride it - no shame in that) without forcing an accomodation for your lack of ability in your chosen sport.

[C.P.]

Yeah, saw that the Enduro ran again…every time it runs, I say the same thing…I just wish it stayed on the motorized use trail only.

There's a good reason why there haven't been very many (nemba) trail work days in Foxboro in the past 2-3 years...my very educated guess is it's because we (trail work volunteers) have been burned one too many times with empty promises that any trail work or improvements done by our organization on a trail that ONLY allows MTBs and Hikers (as the trail signs and maps indicate), will not have motorized users run down it (with permission!)

….and yet somehow every year this event gets a "rubber stamp" approval to have an enduro run down trails that are otherwise marked Hiking/Bicycling ONLY, and the last 5 years worth of this kind of park management has effectively destroyed any trail improvements that were stustainable to MTB's and Hikers to begin with, (along with any pro active involvement from nemba to suggest and participate in trail maintenance projects in the last couple years). Yes we have been doing trail work in there in the last 2-3 years, to be honest, much of it has been to fix the remnants of enduro event mess. We have pics of the last years post enduro trail repairs that about 7 of us spent the greater part of a saturday to fix (and yes, it was all on a trail marked MTB/Hikers only).

[Mr_Cheeze]

Yea, land managment has been severely lacking there of late. I think I can count on both hands the number of downed trees that have yet to be cleared. So in the meantime, users alike, which include mb'ers, ride around the trees. Now, I'm not sure if a motorbiker has another option in these cases. So the blame has to be laid at the feet of forest management for any go-arounds. But mountain bikers... they have only themselves to blame for not getting their asses off their bikes and carrying them over the downage.

[bdee]

I rode Franklin last night and all I could think to myself was " holy sh*t, I really hope Foxboro doesn't end up like this". In some respects it probably won't just due to the topography and general rockiness but it is on it's way to becoming a crappier place to ride. I feel like I need to keep on top of the line changes by riding out there regularly. I could skip a few weekly rides out there and lose a lot of the rideable lines in the mess of trenches and sally lines.

On a side note there's been more and more poaching on the Foxboro Conservation trails by motorcycles and ATVs. Seems like more people are starting to find these trails and ride them regardless of the ample signage.

[Mr_Cheeze]

You're right. Did you see where they removed the log blockades on the Warner Trail path, where it goes right along the edge of that pond? It has to be locals doing that crap.

[C.P.]

You're right. Did you see where they removed the log blockades on the Warner Trail path, where it goes right along the edge of that pond? It has to be locals doing that crap.

Actually, that whole stretch your speaking of is considered a levy for Upper Dam Pond, and I've heard from reliable sources that all of the clearing work done on that stretch (the trees, log blockade(s), and for some reason the horse jumps) were supposedly removed to prevent a possible levy failure. Notice all of that work happened to get done shortly after all that rainfall and subsequent failure of some dams (think Taunton)...well, many of the dams and levys (big and small) in MA were reviewed and put on ASAP maintenance lists, this one aparently made the list. That section of trail right next to the pond also happenes to be on Foxboro Conservation land, and is not part of F Gilbert Hills SF land.

Unfortunately, the work done to the levy also effectively opened the only part on that pond "loop" that prevented ATV's and moto from using that "loop" at all...of course now that it's wide open, and they can ride all the way around (and do) it's getting torn up and the familiar singletrack has turned to ATV doubletrack...signage be damned...:mad:

[Mr_Cheeze]

Exactly how would blockades compromise the levy? Seems to me, opening the trail to potential heavier and more erosive vehicular usage would pose a greater threat. Am I missing some hard to understand factor in levy management?

BTW, I rode Foxy on Saturday and got a good look at some damage. I saw where on the supposed "Mountain Bike Trail", both according to the trail map, as well as trail blazing (green, no yellow) the Enduro participants helped themselves to a brand new line adjacent to the trail, going so far as to clear some fallen trees and branches that was blocking the line. The thing that is most peevish about this particular line is it bypasses a short section that isn't at all difficult. I tried to reblock it, but one or two idiots are only going to clear the stuff away again, since there really wasn't that much stuff with which to block off the line. There is also another section of this same trail that got pretty torn up. I'm thinking of going back there with a camera and sending pics of this offense as well as others to the NETRA president, but I can't help but feel it will be to no avail.

[bdee]

Exactly how would blockades compromise the levy? Seems to me, opening the trail to potential heavier and more erosive vehicular usage would pose a greater threat. Am I missing some hard to understand factor in levy management?

BTW, I rode Foxy on Saturday and got a good look at some damage. I saw where on the supposed "Mountain Bike Trail", both according to the trail map, as well as trail blazing (green, no yellow) the Enduro participants helped themselves to a brand new line adjacent to the trail, going so far as to clear some fallen trees and branches that was blocking the line. The thing that is most peevish about this particular line is it bypasses a short section that isn't at all difficult. I tried to reblock it, but one or two idiots are only going to clear the stuff away again, since there really wasn't that much stuff with which to block off the line. There is also another section of this same trail that got pretty torn up. I'm thinking of going back there with a camera and sending pics of this offense as well as others to the NETRA president, but I can't help but feel it will be to no avail.

I agree with your logic re: the levy but then I'm not sure too many local/state agencies apply much logic.

Has anyone in SE MASS NEMBA discussed bringing up the above with the park managers? Is it possible that enough persistent calling/writing/emailing might force them to actually manage these Enduro events? It would be a pain in everyone's ass but screw 'em - that's what they're paid to do, manage the forest. The MX riders are consistenly riding wherever and whenever (post huge rain storm) in Foxboro and the attitude has shifted. Things seemed pretty level out there for years, but the last two years have really been bad for all the trails. I don't know if the place was "discovered" by more MXers recently or what, but they seem to move from spot to spot and systematically transform the trail to suit their needs.

The MX/ATV user group has free reign in Wrentham and Franklin, and most MTBers seem to agree these places are lost causes, so why should we give up Foxboro without a concerted effort? Seems like we've always played the nice guy role - at this point I don't think it's going to help us hold onto one of the few larger riding areas in this region. And, just so it's clear - I'm in no way advocating trying to kick the MX groups out. The MX use / trail cutting is what made that place so appealing to MTBers from a technical standpoint. But it's pretty obvious that things are out of whack when even the MX riders can't ride their own trail and are cutting tons of cheat lines. And when they start riding the less tech. Conservation trails more and more.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Does anyone know who the land manager is and how to contact that person? I believe there is, or used to be, a NEMBA representative on the Foxboro SF council, but can't recall whom. Rich Higgins?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Nevermind, I found the SEMass Reps. I have written to them to see if maybe we can start a dialogue with the forest manager and go from there. It couldn't hurt if others would voice their concerns as well.

Rich Higgins, President SE Mass Nemba rlhiggins@comcast.net
Mike Parent, VP mparent@fitcorp.com

[C.P.]

Nevermind, I found the SEMass Reps. I have written to them to see if maybe we can start a dialogue with the forest manager and go from there. It couldn't hurt if others would voice their concerns as well.

Rich Higgins, President SE Mass Nemba rlhiggins@comcast.net
Mike Parent, VP mparent@fitcorp.com

edit: Rich Higgins is the SEMASS president. Mike Parent is the rep that currently volunteers his time to organize our efforts at Foxboro.

In reply to Cheeze (and all) - I can assure you, the history of our (NEMBA's) efforts in Foxboro go quite a few years back. In recent years, three great people, all still very active NEMBA volunteers to this day, have attempted to work with the land manager in charge. His name is Ron Clough. I can also say that they have all asked to be removed as VP's, after being frustrated with watching their VOLUNTEER efforts to organize a trail work day to install, fix and maintain mtb trails in foxboro literally get trashed by allowing an enduro event to be run down them. It makes no sense at all. In my eyes, the state is missing a great opportunity here, and hitting closer to home, it's even more frustrating to know that a whole bunch of MTBers like you and I have great passionate energy that we could tap to make a whole lot of trails in foxboro even better off.

We have made progress in the past, built bridges, installed bench cuts and re-routed poorly designed and routed trails, and right to the present, continue to attend the advisory commitee meetings, organize small trail work days etc, but till this day we have never been able to find common ground to get agreement from park management, that all enduro events will not have their race course be routed on trails otherwise marked for non motorized recreation.

RE the levys, I'm no Levy expert, but it would appear that they cut all the trees that were growing right on the levy- were they possible failure points? Who knows...My guess is along the way, they cut and removed everything else - like the horse jumps, the big fallen log that was notched in the middle (and rideable by some)etc...which makes no sense in hindsite.

Cheeze and all interested parties, your more then welcome to share any insite or ideas you might have with how NEMBA might better address the issues that are in the forefront at Foxboro- our next semass meeting will likely be sometime this fall - as usual, all are welcome

[Mr_Cheeze]

What has been the excuse given as to why this very reasonable compromise - no Enduro on non-motorized trails - cannot come to fruition? I realize we're dealing with beaurocracy, here. There must be some reason why this request cannot be honored in some way. How much of a cut ($$) are they getting from the Enduro event? And does that hinge on allowing them free rein with routing? These are just thoughts. I don't expect you to have the answers.

Please let me know if you find out when and where this meeting is to be held. I would like to try to attend.

[priss]

I dont have much to offer on the "how do we get selfish jerks to care about other peoples needs" issue.

But i do know how to spell LEVEE. As in the "man" made soil embankment used to hold back water. Levy is that thing the IRS does when you neglect to file....umm not that i would know.

Heres a link to a UC Berkley study of the levee failure in New Orleans. About half way down they have a picture of what happens when you let trees grow on your levee.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/05/24_leveereport.shtml

Kereina

[C.P.]

I dont have much to offer on the "how do we get selfish jerks to care about other peoples needs" issue.

But i do know how to spell LEVEE. As in the "man" made soil embankment used to hold back water. Levy is that thing the IRS does when you neglect to file....umm not that i would know.

Heres a link to a UC Berkley study of the levee failure in New Orleans. About half way down they have a picture of what happens when you let trees grow on your levee.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/05/24_leveereport.shtml

Kereina

ah yes. Levee. Got it.

Good google find on the tree/levee stuff.

Cheeze, I'll be sure to email you when we schedule our fall semass meeting.

[Mr_Cheeze]

It seems from the article, that the levee was compromised due to the root structure through the soil of the wall. So simply removing the top part of the tree does nothing. As far as I could tell, they only sliced off the top part of trees from that particular Foxboro levee. In fact, one could travel over the levee trail and see lots of roots still in place. Not that one could expect any more than a hack job from a State agency. I doubt there is any serious threat of flooding from that particular pond, anyway.

[priss]

On the planet Vulcan the inhabatants supress all emotion. The reason being that strong emotions will cloud logical thinking, which they value above all things.

simply removing the top part of the tree does nothing. .

I respect your opinon Mr. Cheeze , even when i disagree with you, and quite frankly i am amazed at this statement coming from one who has demonstrated consistant logical thinking. Clearly your passion for this issue has welled up beyond reason. Could Pon'Farr be near?

In the interest of a return to logic i submit the following for your meditation.
Cutting the tree tops stops them from growing.
Trees not growing dont make more roots
Trees not growing dont reproduce
Tree stumps arent tall enough to catch the wind, and be up rooted causing holes in the levee
Lynn Woods neighbors successfully stopped Nemba putting a new trail in using the levee danger argument. (hint, hint)
There is no spoon.

I hope you feel better soon. I am certian your oponents wont stand a chance once your focus returns, and that will benifit all.

Kereina
live long and prosper

[C.P.]

Trees not growing dont make more roots...........

Kereina


Wouldn't decomposing stumps/root balls compromise the soil structure in the levee...and lead to a weak point?

[Mr_Cheeze]

You beat me to it, CP. Here is a direct quote from the caption under the tree graphic:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/05/images/levee_tree.jpg

"The southern breach of the London Avenue Canal was most likely caused by one or more trees growing on the levee. Tree roots provide an entry point for rising water, as illustrated in this drawing."

While I would agree that factoring in trees being uprooted by wind would obviously compromise a levee, this article states seepage caused by different factors is also a potential threat.

So anytime you would like to backtrack from your vicious and unprovoked attack upon my intellect, I and my poor damaged ego will be waiting. http://mazeguy.net/sad/weepy.gif

[bdee]

Apparently the Vulcan sense of humor comes across the same via the interweb as it did on Star Trek.... Anyways - why did the big blockages get removed? They weren't rooted to anything and weren't living.

[C.P.]

Apparently the Vulcan sense of humor comes across the same via the interweb as it did on Star Trek.... Anyways - why did the big blockages get removed? They weren't rooted to anything and weren't living.
I wish I knew (okay, maybe not)...they couldn't have been an issue for the levee...they should'a stayed I say. I miss the big fallen tree that had a notch - it was fun to ride over...

[priss]

I and my poor damaged ego


Now thats funny :)

Hey bdee and C.P. and others, if you really want to know(or not really) bout levee building and maintenance proceedures ya have to check out the Army Corp of Engineers information on the subject. That is a much better way than checking out one link that happened to have a picture, posted by me, out of the dozen or so i read.

of course none of that has anything to do with keeping out atv enthusiassts

[Mr_Cheeze]

I wish I knew (okay, maybe not)...they couldn't have been an issue for the levee...they should'a stayed I say. I miss the big fallen tree that had a notch - it was fun to ride over...

Ride over? Right. That thing was huge.

[Mr_Cheeze]

FYI,

Regarding the ongoing Foxboro - Enduro issues, please see the new thread started in the Advocacy Forum.

[C.P.]

Ride over? Right. That thing was huge.

Yup - ride right over. Yes the huge log. It wasn't a gimme' for sure.