What do you want to see in an XC hardtail?

[SuspectDevice]

Hi,
You may have seen the pictures I posted of the new Sinister Mustang XC race bike last week.

We are still somewhat undecided on what we want to offer in terms of seat-tube and top-tube lengths.

How tall are you, what's your inseam measurement (and saddle height if you know it), and what size bike do you ride now?

FTW and I pretty much see eye-eye on geometry ( I have been riding his xc bikes for 11 years now), but we have a bit of a departure from what we have always done in mind.

[heckler]

rear suspension! ;D ;)

[AA]

I want to see 29" wheels.

I'm 6'4" w/ a 36" inseam, every bike I've ever bought has been in the biggest size (xl) available

[slapheadmofo]

~5'11", inseam's about 32" (according to my pants anyway) Usually ride 'medium' or '18'ish frames.

[benb]

I would like to see an XC hardtail fully built up with semi-reliable parts that weighed in at something insane like 17-18lbs.

Maybe it has been done already, and I don't think I'd actually be in the market for such a bike, but it'd be rather cool and surely generate a ton of publicity.

[off piste]

Something with some nice anti-ATV ordinance mounted up, yet light enough to not hinder climbing performance.

[Chris_T]

rear suspension! ;D ;)


Yes, what happened to the Splinter?

[bdee]

In a XC race bike - as in race only? I'm biased but I'm thinking something along the lines of a Schwinn Homegrown with reagrd to the geometry and relatively smooth ride. Fast but not too twitchy, nice high BB. I'd say keep the two sets of dropouts available - avoid an EBB and/or sliding drops.

I'd say build a light 29er w/both sets of dropouts and you'd have a hit on your hands. The majority of 29ers are HT SS specific or have lousy dropout choices to run SS or geared. Give it some standover and the ability to run 80 or 100mm up front - that would be a nice touch as well.

[ArmOnFire]

6'3" 35" inseam
Ride XL or 21", 22" frames

That being said, I'd like to vote for a 29er , with rear dropouts to accomodate SS and disc.

-Dan

[adam30k]

I'm not super technical with bikes, but weight is what I look at.

(On an unrelated note, bdee did you get my PM? Just want to see if I'm doing it wrong or something.)

[SuspectDevice]

I was actually more interested in top-tube length than seat-tube length.

For example, I'm 5-10" and run either a 23 or 23.5" toptube, and a 130-110 mm stem depending on seat angle. My gut tells me that most people like longer top-tubes now than they did in the mid 90's

Yes, there is a possibility of a 29'er, but probally not until the spring. There will definetely be a new XC fs bike as well, but it won't be a Splinter. There is a whole new platform coming out from Sinister next year, that will blow everything seen before out of the water.

It is obvious that the majority of the market left of hardtails falls into the "novelty or alternative" category, like SS or 29'er, but first we want to build the most hi-performance, purpose built, deadly fast XC race hardtail on the market. And yes, it will have beautiful SS drops as an aftermarket option....

FTW likes to win, and so do I, and so do our XC racers for next year.

[gnurider1080]

im 5' 11" and my inseam is about 34." i like to ride a large with a shorter stem. i have a large 05 stumpjumper 120 with a 70mm thomson and it seems to fit me quite well.

[hammerhead]

Mickey,

I'm a tad over 6'2" 35" inseam. I am with you 100% on the top tube length. My almost antique GT hardtail has a top tube of just about 24" and the bike I am currently demoing is a bit longer at 24 1/2". It is the best fitting bike I have been on in a LONG time. Both give me a much better ride than the shorter fully (maybe 23").

The various bikes in the garage have a saddle to BB height of about 32" and the top tubes run from 23 to 24 1/2.

I feel really out of sorts on Matt's bikes with their approximately 22" TTs.

H.

[AA]

More info....

25.5" ETT
100 mm stem
72 deg HT & ST

[slapheadmofo]

Current trail bike is a med splinter ER, run on the slack side (not sure exactly what the angles work out to) w/ a 70mm stem. Last bike (FSR Enduro) had a 23" TT which I ran w/ a 90mm stem. Defintitely set up a little on the trail/play bike side rather than XC - could definitely use some more room to stretch out on the climbs.

[auntesther1]

I am 5'9" and inseam is 30" on a very good day...so I ride a 16" or so xc frame. I would typically rather see a slightly longer headtube than I typically find in bikes my size...so I dont have to run spaers to get proper stem/bar height. LOW standover and around a 22.5-22.75" TT.

maybe a 70.5 or so head angle ( designed around a 80mm fork)...and canti mounts

[Superb Man]

I like auntesther''s head angle (I'm 5'10" 32 inch inseam--joe average!).

What I'd like to see--as an east coast specific rider is higher bottom brackets (yeah, even for racings).

Also-the trend towards longer chainstays for stability and balance is a good one-I don't think you need the up-leg-up of a short chainstay from a bike with steeper angles and phenomenal light weight--but a little extra help on the down hill...that's a nice thing.

[MMcG]

I am 5'9" and inseam is 30" on a very good day...so I ride a 16" or so xc frame. I would typically rather see a slightly longer headtube than I typically find in bikes my size...so I dont have to run spaers to get proper stem/bar height. LOW standover and around a 22.5-22.75" TT.

maybe a 70.5 or so head angle ( designed around a 80mm fork)...and canti mounts

I like those numbers.

I also like the recommendations that the 29er advocates have been throwing out there. Seems like those two different dropout configurations would be a real hit with the big wheel afficianados.

[bdee]

So, what makes you think 29ers are a novelty ??? Seriously - just asking. Not trying to sound like some maniacal 29er preacher, I swear.

IMHO as weight becomes less of a factor more XC racers are going to figure out that a 29er can, on the right course especially, be faster than a 26er. It seems as courses get easier (ie more doubletrack and fire road sections) the advantages of a bike that simply rolls faster are huge. Some 29ers are notoriously slow in technical riding (Fishers) - assuming you believe the internet chatter anyways. Those bikes aside most people riding 29ers find them to be equally fast through technical trail - or faster in some situations. Even a stiff 29er frame should ride smoother, and be more comfortable - even when fully rigid - than a 26er. Less fatigue is a huge plus in my book. Over really technical, and familiar, trails it's been my experience that a heavy rigid Surly 29er is faster than lighter (21 - 24lb) 26" hardtails - from steel to carbon. Hell, 80mm of travel feels like 100 + on a HT 29er.

Ask yourself this - would you bring a 26er to a 'cross race that consisted of smooth, easy singletrack and lots of fields and road sections?

Even if the 26er was considered an advantage on a woodsy 'cross course why do the pros race, and win, on 'cross bikes? If the mtn bike was faster they'd be on those (and yeah, the style police would probably shoot them for it ::) )

This is only my take on 29ers, and they work for well me - and I completely acknowledge that they are not gaining wide acceptance among pro racers - yet. If Bontrager/Trek/etc continue working on lighter parts (read wheels) I think you'll start to see more in competition. A high end, lightweight geared/SS option from a company like Sinister could do well. Throw some feeler questions out to the guys at twentynineinches.com or to the MTBR 29 board. You're likely to get a lot of feedback from those folks.

Adam - I did get your PM. We just haven't nailed down dates/times to get out to LW yet.

[SuspectDevice]

So, what makes you think 29ers are a novelty ??? Seriously - just asking. Not trying to sound like some maniacal 29er preacher, I swear.

......



I have a 29/26" bike that I love, and I often talk to many racers (including a certain former Mainer with some hefty world level XC and "cross results on his palmares) about their wishes that their sponsors made a 29'er. They are lighter than short-travel XC rigs, and pretty much perform the same over bumps, I understand that. They also don't work very well at all for shorter people.

The main motivation for finally building the Mustang was to build a bike for a very fast female pro from NorCal. She's 5'2", so 700c wheels are out for her!

I get 29ers, and FTW will get it once he gets time in on a 29" bike, and there is certainly ample pressure to move in that direction.

When it comes to re-entering the XC race world for FTW, it's baby steps....

[T Grimble]

I think the answer to the top tube and seat tube length is simple. You need to make each frame custom. Sinister built its name around giving the freeride market exaclty what they were looking for. Strong indistructable bikes that were set up to accomodate technology that other manufactures didn't address such as chain guides. The hardtail market is about performance and this means getting everything just right. Find a way to deliver perfect geometry for each rider in a light weight frame at a reasonable price and you will be able to compete with the other great New England hardtail builders. This is a tough segment of the market to carve out a niche. There are a lot of companies who already do this well.

[SuspectDevice]

There are a lot of companies who already do this well.



Actually Yeti and Trek and Cannondale are the only companies left that make more than 20 Hi-End aluminium race frames per year in the US. There are all the great steel and Ti custom builders and the purveyors of carbon (find out what Sinister thinks of carbon http://sinisterbikes.com/products.htm who build in the states though.

Instead of a $700 frame this would be a $1500- $1700 frame. You can already get amazing custom Easton Program or Scandium hardtails from Chris Herting of 3D ( another 1/3 of the Original Yeti Crew) and Robbie Rupe of Canyon (former Yeti Employee) Those are $1400+ frames though. IF, Vicious and Wojick, Curtlo et. al all have the Steel or Ti custom thing down pat as well.

It has actually been many, many moons since a stripped down, bare bones, deadly serious made in the USA XC hardtail was made available in serious numbers. The Pacific buyout of GT/Schwinn was the end of it....

Now when you look at the frames most pros are racing, the either race production FS bikes, or custom hardtails built to their specs by Canyon, 3D, or the Sapa race shop.... Try finiding the web address or phone number of any of those folks... You can't and even if you did get in touch with them, the waiting list and price would astound you.

We want to make that pro-level fit, function and feel available to almost any one who wants it, and we want to build it out of 6061 aluminum that is more durable and easier to work with than super-expensive Easton tubes.

The heritage of this bike goes so much farther back than Sinister, it goes all the way back to the beginning of aluminum XC race frames, and names like ARC, Furtado, Killen and 5 XC world's golds.

The idea right now is to offer 5 sizes, with multiple TT lengths for the medium and large. The geometry will be slacker than the mid 90's for blood in the eyes stability, the BB height will be the right balance between stability and clearance, the attention to detail will be unparralleled and the frame will be the simplest, most reliable, lightest weight frame possible.

[ArmOnFire]

BDEE-Thanks, I couldn't have said it better, in my experience, going from a 26 HT w/ a 3" fork to a full rigid 29er is dare I say more comfortable. My fork was old and crappy though.

MTBR.com link on female 29er sizing (http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=104760&highlight=tommyknocker)

There is a wealth of information on the MTBR.com/29er section

24.5" TT c-c w/ a 100mm stem for my XL frame

-Dan

[auntesther1]

There are a lot of companies who already do this well.

Now when you look at the frames most pros are racing, the either race production FS bikes, or custom hardtails built to their specs by Canyon, 3D, or the Sapa race shop.... Try finiding the web address or phone number of any of those folks... You can't and even if you did get in touch with them, the waiting list and price would astound you.




Found it!

http://www.v2racing.com/3dracing/

sorru Mickey...couldnt resist ;D