E-Mail received today

[iceman]

I know this is most likely to cause some to have a blow-out but I personnally like it!

Think about this: If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone-----YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM !!!!

Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????

Think about it!
All we have to say is, when will they do something about MY RIGHTS?



I celebrate Christmas...........but because it isn't celebrated by everyone..............we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings.


It's not Christmas vacation, it's Winter Break. Isn't it amazing how this winter break ALWAYS occurs over the Christmas holiday?

We've gone so far the other way, bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that I am now being offended. But it seems that no one has a problem with that.
This says it all!

This is an editorial written by an
American citizen, published in a
Tampa newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on, please!


IMMIGRANTS,
NOT AMERICANS,
MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we
are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11,
we have experienced a surge
in patriotism by the majority
of Americans. However...... the dust from the attacks had
barely settled when the "politically correct! " crowd began complaining about
the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to ! America.

Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants.
However, there

are a few things that those
who have recently come to
our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.
This idea of America being a
multicultural community
has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans......
we have our own culture, our
own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.


We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language.

Therefore, if you wish to become part
of our society, learn the language!
"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women.......on Christian principles.............
founded this nation..... and this is clearly documented.

It is certainly appropriate to display it
on the walls of our schools.
If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as
your new home.........because
God is part of our culture.


If Stars and Stripes offend you, or
you don't like Uncle Sam, then you
should seriously consider a move
to another part of this planet.
We
are happy with our culture and have
no desire to change, and we really
don't care how you did things where
you came from.
This is
OUR COUNTRY,

our land, and our lifestyle.
Our First Amendment gives every citizen the
right to express his opinion and we
will allow you every opportunity to do so!
But once you are done complaining....... whining...... and griping....... about our flag.......
our pledge...... our national motto........or our
way of life....I highly encourage you to
take advantage of one other Great American Freedom.......


THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

It is Time for America to Speak up

If you agree -- pass this along;
if you don't agree -- delete it!
AMEN

[kernel crash]

I agree. Sounds pretty reasonable and well written.

[mtbtom]

BAH - did Rush Limbaugh write that essay ? America was "built" and "founded" by a lot of different peoples - ENGLISH speaking CHRISTIANS being only *some* of them - this is clearly documented too. The fact that the dollar bill reads "in god we trust" only reflects who was "in charge" at the time. Let's not forget some of the founding fathers were also slave owners - not an indictment just a fact.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Just another good example of how extremism on any side of the political aisle is divisive, damaging, and counterproductive. Personally, I like to believe that there is a happy medium between the jingoists like those who wrote those e-mails, and the politically correct, pro-ACLU crowd who like to act unhappy with America as it stands.
While I agree that illegal immigration needs to be seriously stemmed and our borders better protected, I certainly don't think we are in the middle of a culture reformation. That's just wacky. And it's just so trite to say, "Well, if you don't like it you can leave."

It is funny that George Bush suddenly wants to do something about the immigration problem now that he has no reelection campaign to worry about. Friggin hypocrite.

[Slider]

All we have to say is, when will they do something about MY RIGHTS?

I celebrate Christmas...........but because it isn't celebrated by everyone..............we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings.


Your rights are defined by the Constitution. You'd have to be more specific about where they are being trampled. Trust me, there's no one with any authority that is saying you can't say Merry Christmas.


We've gone so far the other way, bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that I am now being offended. But it seems that no one has a problem with that.

So you’re saying people should not be allowed to say “Happy Holidays.” Or advertise a “Spring Break Wet T contest?” Sounds unconstitutional and repressive to me.

The editorial goes a lot further, and really seems like it was written by an idiot. It says:

“As Americans…we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.”

So the fellow is proposing what, that we simply stop that growth process that has created our culture, and only allow what he says is acceptable? He might want to hook up with the Amish or something. Seems to have more in common with them then the rest of us that happen to love this dynamic country of ours.

Later on he says:

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women.......on Christian principles............. founded this nation..... and this is clearly documented. “

Documented where? Not in the Constitution, which is the most authoritative source for who we are. There, it says we have no state religion, and don’t want one.

He then makes a big leap to this:

“If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.
This is OUR COUNTRY.”

Defense of the USA means defense of the Constitution. This guy clearly hates America, and all that it stands for. What a moron.

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[TrailBate]

wasn't this an old chain e-mail that was originally credited to Andy Rooney, until it was debunked and Andy Rooney wrote how offended he was by this?

[iceman]

As I stated someone sent this to me, so I have no back ground on it, it may every well be an old chain mail that was drug out of the ashes.

"This is an editorial written by an
American citizen, published in a
Tampa newspaper."

Beyond this I have no further history on it. I do agree on several points that are made in it but I do not agree with others, just thought you folks might have a little fun with it, kinda like throwing a dog his favorite chew toy. I do so enjoy reading the different opinions posted, all arguements aside there are alot of well spoken folks in here.

[kernel crash]

Look. Its easy to pick this apart and some of the responses are predictable. But what is unescapable is that 75 years ago when our parents came to this country they learned the English language and assimilated into the American culture. That's not what's happening today. That's one of the major points of the email. In this day and age where the word Holiday is substituted for Christmas and the pledge of Alligence is being rewritten for political correctness, the author of the email still makes a valid point, and this has nothing to do with the "growth process".

[Slider]

The guy who wrote the piece says it himself:

"“ This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.”

So why should we stop that process now? Wouldn't "freedom" include the right to speak whatever language you or I choose?

The majority of us in the US speak English because we happen to want to. There's nothing in stone that says we have to do so forever, or that others have to because most of us currently do. Why should there be?

If anything, I'd think a conservative, as this fellow appears to be, would advocate the free market forces as the agent for determing what we speak. If you can make your way through life here without speaking English, WTF difference does it make to anyone else?

I just can't follow the reasoning. It seems really irrational.

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[BG]

Wasn't there a day and age not that long ago when the pledge WAS re-written for political, religious or cultural purposes?
Seems to me it just might be part of a "growth" process, maybe even a re-birth process.
I could basically care less whether or not god is in the pledge or on our money. They have been "written in" by our congress under pressure from particular groups at various times in history. So, Hmmmmm, maybe the pledge CAN be re-written if it suits a cultural, religious, political or legal purpose. Should the legal debate be halted on the the grounds that somehow it should'nt be changed because some people think it's been like this forever? Naw that's just un-american.

BG

BG

[kernel crash]

"The majority of us in the US speak English because we happen to want to. There's nothing in stone that says we have to do so forever, or that others have to because most of us currently do. Why should there be? "

Well why should we have to pay for bi-lingual education? Did our parents have that option when they came over here? No they didn't. Did they fall flat on their faces? No they didn't. Can you say that with what you see today?

[Slider]

Roughly 10% of the US population speaks Spanish, many of them exclusively. It is in all our interest to make sure that they get a good education so that they can fully participate in the economy. We all benefit from a more robust economy, so bi-lingual education is an investment in our future. That was not so well grasped in the past. Think of it as a jump start.

Bi-lingual education does not mean no English, ever. Market forces take care of that. You don't get much of a job without it. A good education jump starts even that part of the assimilation process. Get a job, desire to advance, learn English.

75 years ago, naturalized Americans got little health care, no Social Security, and faced discrimination pretty much every step of the way. It was not only bad for them, it was bad for all of us. That is a key point missed by a lot of people. The strength of our country comes from the opportunity we can offer anyone, regardless of national origin or native language. It really is what makes us strong, and those who want to deny that simply have no clue as to the value of a diverse culture and economy. If we don't recognize it, and value it, we're doomed to economic disaster.

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[Slider]

Wasn't there a day and age not that long ago when the pledge WAS re-written for political, religious or cultural purposes?
Seems to me it just might be part of a "growth" process, maybe even a re-birth process.
I could basically care less whether or not god is in the pledge or on our money. They have been "written in" by our congress under pressure from particular groups at various times in history. So, Hmmmmm, maybe the pledge CAN be re-written if it suits a cultural, religious, political or legal purpose. Should the legal debate be halted on the the grounds that somehow it should'nt be changed because some people think it's been like this forever? Naw that's just un-american.

BG


I don't get your point. The Pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with the Constitution. It comes from an 1892 magazine article.

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[BG]

Wasn't there a day and age not that long ago when the pledge WAS re-written for political, religious or cultural purposes?
Seems to me it just might be part of a "growth" process, maybe even a re-birth process.
I could basically care less whether or not god is in the pledge or on our money. They have been "written in" by our congress under pressure from particular groups at various times in history. So, Hmmmmm, maybe the pledge CAN be re-written if it suits a cultural, religious, political or legal purpose. Should the legal debate be halted on the the grounds that somehow it should'nt be changed because some people think it's been like this forever? Naw that's just un-american.

BG


I don't get your point. The Pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with the Constitution. It comes from an 1892 magazine article.

Slider



Yea, without the god word in it. It wasn't untill 1954 that "under god" was added and approved by congress. Some people seem to think it it always read that way, they seem to think that it shouldn't and can't be changed because that's the way it always was.
It did change and it can change again, not a bad thing necc. and would probably be more in line with the intent of the constitution.
The same goes for "In God We Trust" on our money, didn't have anything to do with the constitution, wasn't always like that, can change if we want it to. I know, i know it helped get us through the cold war against those heathen...

BG

[Slider]

I see what you're saying, and I agree. It goes right up there with the creationists who say we have always been the way we are now. We sorta hit the ground running, they claim.

I think it comes from needing security in a very changeable world. Ignore the changes, and you don't have to worry about the future so much.

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[kernel crash]

"The strength of our country comes from the opportunity we can offer anyone, regardless of national origin or native language. It really is what makes us strong..."

Ya tell that to the hospitals and social services providers along our Southern border who have gone out of business because of the crush of illegal immigrants.

[Slider]

That is another issue entirely. We're talking naturalized citizens here.

But the idea holds. If we can't stop them, helping integrate them into the economy is the only way to stop the resource drain.

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[kernel crash]

I don't have a problem with legal immigrants. But wouldn't you agree that if someone is making a consious decesion to immigrate to this country to become a citizen, shouldn't that also come with an acceptance to the ways and customs of our country! In other words don't immigrate here and then start bitching about our customs and heritage.

[Slider]

Who's bitching?

More to the point, "the ways and customs of our country" are the result of the input from all of us, and they are changing all the time with new influences. It is a good thing.

Rock and Roll and jazz are both the product of that cultural extrusion process, as are the ingredients and cooking style of most of the food we eat. Our language would have maybe half as many words as it does without it.

As far as I can tell, ABBA is the only downside.

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[MTBME]

""the ways and customs of our country" are the result of the input from all of us, and they are changing all the time "

Change is not always a bad thing but I think the point here was not change but the elimination of certain customs that we have come to value. Dracut High School just had a "Holiday" play and they were not allowed to sing any Christmas songs in the play. Is this your idea of change? So it would seem like plenty of people are bitching.

[Slider]

That is not the result of people bitching, but of an accurate reading of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We can't favor one religion over another where public funding is used. You can do what you want privately, or at non tax-funded venues, but it is wrong to leave out the many Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and whatever, since they are paying part of those taxes. If you want to celebrate Christmas, go to a Christian school.

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[Mr_Cheeze]

That is not the result of people bitching, but of an accurate reading of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We can't favor one religion over another where public funding is used. You can do what you want privately, or at non tax-funded venues, but it is wrong to leave out the many Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and whatever, since they are paying part of those taxes. If you want to celebrate Christmas, go to a Christian school.

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This is where you lose everybody. Christmas these days is less about religion and more about tradition. Is it more important here to appease the minority by disregarding the majority? Most Jews I have seen quoted on this issue seem to have no problem with neither recognizing the word or the concept of Christmas. And Muslims tend to do their own thing regardless. The only people who seem to be objecting most loudly on this "Christmas" issue are the, as I described them before, attention seeking atheists. A Christmas play, which is not necessarily a religious play, could be about a snowman, or could be about a Dickens' story, is only offensive to those who are looking to be offended. It is unfortunate that many school administrators these days have little tiny gonads.

[TrailBate]

I gotta lean right on this argument...part of it anyway.

If a school wants to have a christmas play, they should have a christmas play. If a Jew or Muslim wants to be in a holiday play, then have a Hanukkah or Ramadan (or whatever) play, too.

I don't think anyone should say, "hey, I am not christian, therefore you cannot have a Christmas play." Sorry buddy, most of us ARE Christian, so deal."

It's usually not even jews or muslims that complain about christmas stuff, it's atheists. you can't have an atheist holiday play. Most atheists celebrate the over-commercialized part of christmas anyway.

I hate rap music. That doesn't mean YOU should not listen to it, and it doesn't mean you can't play rap music as part of your play. (although, the play would totally suck ass.)

I still believe the "war on christmas" is a bunch of crap made up by Fox news.

[Slider]

I don't happen to have kids, but if I did I would prefer that they not get taught dogma of any type in school. It ain't much of a leap to creationism. Before you know it, they'll be riding ATV s. :o

BTW - I was born here, so it ain't the illegal aliens making this complaint.

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Thinking about this a little more. I probably wouldn't complain, but would tell my kid about my perspective. But I would defend any other parent's right to complain.

[TrailBate]

I'm an atheist (or agnostic), I have 2 kids, and I celebrate christmas. To me, christmas is about family, food, fun, and the magic of childhood.

[Mr_Cheeze]

family, food, fun, and the magic of childhood.

Things desireable by all... except for maybe Jehova's Witnesses, the biggest downer religion of them all. I remember going through school with several kids who were Jehovas. They stayed home from school on any days where parties were involved, and yet, their parents never demanded that the rest of us had to suffer because they were uncomfortable.

Still, I think it tantamounts to near child abuse for any parents with young children to convert to Jehova Witness. I mean, jeez, even Born Again Christians exchange gifts and have decorations, even if they don't drink or swear or dance or listen to rock or jazz music or partake in any entertainment that is not approved by the Church. (Another slap happy religion)

God, that must be the worst news in the world to have to digest. "Johnny and Amie, your father and I have heard the good news and decided to convert to Jehovas Witness. What that means to you is that Santa Claus and the Christmas Tree and gift giving and any type of festive celebration are pagan symbols and rituals, and we'll not be doing any of that any more because we want to go to heaven. Instead, we'll be ging to Kingdom Hall and reading the Bible! "

I may be a lapsed Cathlolic turned agnostic, but I thank the good Lord that I grew up following pagan rituals! This Christmas Season, let us all have a drink and toast those poor Jehova children who are forced by their parents to be left out of all the fun.

[TrailBate]

My neighbors are Baptists, so they don't celebrate Halloween, or do the Santa Claus thing. I just teach my kids, "Santa just doesn't visit them."

I hope to see the conversation someday:

their kid, "There is no such thing as Santa Claus"

my kid "No, Santa just doesn't visit you"

their kid " wahhhh!!!!"

[FriedRys]

That is not the result of people bitching, but of an accurate reading of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We can't favor one religion over another where public funding is used. You can do what you want privately, or at non tax-funded venues, but it is wrong to leave out the many Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and whatever, since they are paying part of those taxes. If you want to celebrate Christmas, go to a Christian school.

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Seems pretty clear to me, the goverment can't create their own religion i.e. the Church of England, but also can't tell anyone they can't practice their religion. So if you want to strictly follow the constitution, the goverment telling schools they can't have a Christmas Play is in direct conflict with the 1st Ammendment.
You guys just love to twist things so they read the way you want them to.

[TrailBate]

That is not the result of people bitching, but of an accurate reading of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We can't favor one religion over another where public funding is used. You can do what you want privately, or at non tax-funded venues, but it is wrong to leave out the many Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and whatever, since they are paying part of those taxes. If you want to celebrate Christmas, go to a Christian school.

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Seems pretty clear to me, the goverment can't create their own religion i.e. the Church of England, but also can't tell anyone they can't practice their religion. So if you want to strictly follow the constitution, the goverment telling schools they can't have a Christmas Play is in direct conflict with the 1st Ammendment.
You guys just love to twist things so they read the way you want them to.


Yeah, and so do all those liberal activist Supreme Court justices throughout history that have interpreted the First Amendment. Those bastards!

[Slider]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Seems pretty clear to me, the goverment can't create their own religion i.e. the Church of England, but also can't tell anyone they can't practice their religion. So if you want to strictly follow the constitution, the goverment telling schools they can't have a Christmas Play is in direct conflict with the 1st Ammendment.
You guys just love to twist things so they read the way you want them to.


Since Congress requires that we be taxed, and since that federal money is used to fund public schools, religious teachings there means that Congress is funding the religion, which is unconstitutional. Private schools, no problem.

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[FriedRys]

That is not the result of people bitching, but of an accurate reading of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We can't favor one religion over another where public funding is used. You can do what you want privately, or at non tax-funded venues, but it is wrong to leave out the many Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and whatever, since they are paying part of those taxes. If you want to celebrate Christmas, go to a Christian school.

Slider
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Seems pretty clear to me, the goverment can't create their own religion i.e. the Church of England, but also can't tell anyone they can't practice their religion. So if you want to strictly follow the constitution, the goverment telling schools they can't have a Christmas Play is in direct conflict with the 1st Ammendment.
You guys just love to twist things so they read the way you want them to.


Yeah, and so do all those liberal activist Supreme Court justices throughout history that have interpreted the First Amendment. Those bastards!
Exactly.

[FriedRys]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Seems pretty clear to me, the goverment can't create their own religion i.e. the Church of England, but also can't tell anyone they can't practice their religion. So if you want to strictly follow the constitution, the goverment telling schools they can't have a Christmas Play is in direct conflict with the 1st Ammendment.
You guys just love to twist things so they read the way you want them to.


Since Congress requires that we be taxed, and since that federal money is used to fund public schools, religious teachings there means that Congress is funding the religion, which is unconstitutional. Private schools, no problem.

Slider
Funding and establishing are two completely different things, would you not agree? I think it's a long leap from allowing children to have a Christmas play to establishing a Goverment mandated religion to the exclusion of others. And denying the people who pay said taxes the right to worship (or celebrate or whatever you want to call it)when and where they want sure seems like "prohibiting the free exercise thereof;".

[Slider]

No, I would absolutely disagree. Funding is all as fas as promotion of anything goes.

So tell me - I want to hold, say, a pagan solstice ritual in my kid's school auditorium. You think the school board is gonna let me? Should they?

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[BG]

"So tell me - I want to hold, say, a pagan solstice ritual in my kid's school auditorium. You think the school board is gonna let me? Should they?"


Yes, but only if there's beer and chanting and the pounding of drums. Then count me IN. I guess that naked thing would be ok too, but NO spouting of politics, too much of that in our schools already.

BG

[FriedRys]

No, I would absolutely disagree. Funding is all as fas as promotion of anything goes.

So tell me - I want to hold, say, a pagan solstice ritual in my kid's school auditorium. You think the school board is gonna let me? Should they?

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If YOU wanted to, no, I seriously doubt that you are of the age to be in school with your children. If the majority of the children in that school were Pagans, absolutely. We live in a democracy, you know, the majority rules type of thing. Catering to the minority at the expence of the majority is contrary to the entire idea of democracy.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Is Dickens' A Christmas Carol a religious play or a Christmas play? Is a school, by allowing the children to enjoy participating in such a production, and then allowing the student body and parents and friends to watch these children perform this play... is that school then establishing religion? I hardly think so. And neither is the local government under which the school presides is establishing religion. It's a play!! Anyone who believes otherwise has a serious bug up their ass and is not at all concerned with the Constitution, children, family, and all that is good.

[Slider]

So tell me - I want to hold, say, a pagan solstice ritual in my kid's school auditorium. You think the school board is gonna let me? Should they?

Slider
If YOU wanted to, no, I seriously doubt that you are of the age to be in school with your children. If the majority of the children in that school were Pagans, absolutely. We live in a democracy, you know, the majority rules type of thing. Catering to the minority at the expence of the majority is contrary to the entire idea of democracy.


That is not how democracy works. Your democratic input would first require you to change the Constitution by electing Congressmen and Senators who agree with your desired rewrite of the law. Or, if you prefer to circumvent the Constitution as Bush is attempting, to load the Supreme Court with idealogues who ignore precedent, hope that they don't come to their senses as has happened mostly in the past, and wait for or create a test case. Until then, precedent rules, as it should.

Your local majority has nothing to do with consitutionality, and it shouldn't. If it did, we'd still have segregation in the South, and possibly slavery. Those are bad things, and state support for religion is not far behind.

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[Slider]

And neither is the local government under which the school presides is establishing religion. It's a play!! Anyone who believes otherwise has a serious bug up their ass and is not at all concerned with the Constitution, children, family, and all that is good.


Good in your mind, thankfully, is not good according to our Constitution. And, as you would likely agree, my mind doesn't decide things either. Law is all we have and it says clearly that separation of church and state requires that no particular dogma be favored over others. Presenting a play that idealizes Christianity is discriminatory. Why can't your school simply choose something inspirational that is non-demonational. Can't be that hard, can it?

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[kernel crash]

"Presenting a play that idealizes Christianity is discriminatory."

Idealizes? Cmon. This has absolutely nothing to do with idealizing anything. Its TRADITION for Christ sakes to have a Christmas play at christmas time. It hasn't been a problem for a 100 years now all of a sudden the earth will tilt off its axis. Hey I just checked the calendar. December 25th is Christmas day not Holiday day.

[Slider]

Tradition, harkening back to a time when we didn't GAF about anyone BUT Christians. Since then, we've not only become more diverse, but also more open to those who don't share the tradition. And it is a good thing.

No one is stopping you from celebrating any tradition you want. The Constitution, interpreted correctly, says do it at home or in some other non-publicly funded way, or find a way to be inclusive of others who don't share your heritage/religion/sense of tradition.

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[kernel crash]

"Tradition, harkening back to a time when we didn't GAF about anyone BUT Christians."

That's the point. We are a Christian country, not Muslim, Hindu etc.

"And it is a good thing."

That's your opinion and I'll bet it's a minority opinion in this country. So who speaks for the rest of us, the majority who wants to uphold and pass on these traditions to our children? Very typical of the liberals. Mainstream Americans are the source of all the worlds problems and we all need to sit them down and correct their evil ways. Gee I wonder why the libs are doing so poorly in National elections these days?

[Slider]

Again, if you want to change the Constitution, go ahead. But for now, it says we have no state religion.

The problem with making the change is that you won't have the votes, since we're not a Christian country. We are a diverse, multi-ethnic quilt, and we want it to stay that way.

If you do ever succeed in getting the Senate to agree to endorse Christianity, you'll definitely be getting what you deserve, but not what you actually want. Have you paid any attention to the fundamentalists behind Bush's rise? They are a very sick crew. Nailing Howard Stern for a few words on the radio will be a snowflake on a very large iceberg. Believe me, the alternative to what we now have is far, far worse. We're talking Taliban. And it starts with a state religion.

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[Mr_Cheeze]

And neither is the local government under which the school presides is establishing religion. It's a play!! Anyone who believes otherwise has a serious bug up their ass and is not at all concerned with the Constitution, children, family, and all that is good.


Good in your mind, thankfully, is not good according to our Constitution. And, as you would likely agree, my mind doesn't decide things either. Law is all we have and it says clearly that separation of church and state requires that no particular dogma be favored over others. Presenting a play that idealizes Christianity is discriminatory. Why can't your school simply choose something inspirational that is non-demonational. Can't be that hard, can it?

Slider


Why can't you simply answer the question as to whether you think A Christmas Carol is a "religious" play that would be so offensive to non-Christians? Can't be that hard, can it? Oh, that's right, Tiny Tim exclaims, towards the end of the story, "God bless us, everyone." Well, can't have that said on the public school property. Or is it simply the title, with the word, "Christmas"?

Thankfully, what I think is good in this matter is agreed upon by a great, great majority of people in this country. This play and other Christmas type plays will continue to be performed on the stages of the taxpayers, and will be enjoyed by tax paying parents. The Constitution - funny how suddenly a liberal now hearkens to this document which is normally an impediment to other leftist issues - the Constitution supports the citizens' of each city and town to have Christmas plays on public school gorunds if they so wish. The argument that somehow a play, like A Cheistmas Carol is tantamount to government establishing religion is pure bunk. This whole arguement is just an attempt to disagree for the sake of being disagreeable.

[iceman]

I love my mother she always send me funny jokes like this one.

A Somali arrives in Minneapolis as a new immigrant to the United States.
He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says," Thank
you Mr. American for letting me in this country, and giving me housing,
food stamps, free medical care and free education!" But the passer-by says
"You are mistaken, I am Mexican". The man goes on and encounters another
passer-by "Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in America!"
The person says "I no American, I Vietnamese." The new arrival walks
further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says
"Thank you for the wonderful America!" That person puts up his hand and
says "I am from the Middle East, I am not an American!" He finally sees a
nice lady and asks suspiciously, "Are you an American?" She says, "No, I am
from Russia!" So he is puzzled, and asks her, "Where are all the
Americans?" The Russian lady looks at her watch, shrugs, and says...
"Probably at work!

It is a joke, not a PC joke but then again I'm not always PC.

hope everyone is having a good day

[off piste]

I love my mother she always send me funny jokes like this one.


hope everyone is having a good day


I'm at work......

[catbbq]

I love my mother she always send me funny jokes like this one.

A Somali arrives in Minneapolis as a new immigrant to the United States.
He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says," Thank
you Mr. American for letting me in this country, and giving me housing,
food stamps, free medical care and free education!" But the passer-by says
"You are mistaken, I am Mexican". The man goes on and encounters another
passer-by "Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in America!"
The person says "I no American, I Vietnamese." The new arrival walks
further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says
"Thank you for the wonderful America!" That person puts up his hand and
says "I am from the Middle East, I am not an American!" He finally sees a
nice lady and asks suspiciously, "Are you an American?" She says, "No, I am
from Russia!" So he is puzzled, and asks her, "Where are all the
Americans?" The Russian lady looks at her watch, shrugs, and says...
"Probably at work!

It is a joke, not a PC joke but then again I'm not always PC.

hope everyone is having a good day


Classic.

This thread (not the joke) is one of the most stupid I have seen on here yet.

Most of you guys seem to know something about politics even if you can't agree. But I am pretty sure none of you know anything about Christianity other than what makes for a good news story.

Christians drink booze. The bible says beer and wine are fine, you should shy away from hard liquor, and getting drunk is a bad idea.

Christians listen to all kinds of music. Jazz, rock, christian.

Christians dance.

Many of the happiest most well adjusted tolerant people I know are born again. I haven't met any in New England, although I assume there are some around.

Regardless of what you think you know, Christianity doesn't preach hatred or single mindedness. Quiet the opposite. But that doesn't make good headlines, so how could you know?

Of course this doesn't apply to all Christians. They are just like everyone else in that some are stupid and ignorant and bigoted. Some don't drink, just like some athiests don't drink. etc, and etc....

[BG]

Oh Boy

Now we go from arguing whether celebration of a religious holiday should be nationally and publically supported and funded, to the question of moral character and pshycological balance of supporters/believers of that particular religion.

Yup, stupid.

BG

[off piste]

Oh Boy

Now we go from arguing whether celebration of a religious holiday should be nationally and publically supported and funded, to the question of moral character and pshycological balance of supporters/believers of that particular religion.

Yup, stupid.

BG


It appears to be regional as well. There may be happy Christians in New England, but the jury's still out....

[TrailBate]

This thread (not the joke) is one of the most stupid I have seen on here yet.



I love people that complain about a thread, and then post in it.

[slapheadmofo]

Legal immigrants need to learn the language if they want to be able to take advantage of all the opportunities this country can afford them. But if they're happy with their lot speaking their native language, hey, the world needs ditch diggers too. I've know many proud Americans that struggle with the language (a prime example being the first generation SE Asian and Portugese immigrants in Lowell); that doesn't make them any less of a citizen than the 'rest of us' though. As a matter of fact, you can find a lot of people like that, as well as their children, in the armed forces defending our country. What does make someone less of a citizen is demanding concessions if they're too lazy or too full of misplaced cultural 'pride' to learn English. (FYI - both my mother and myself learned English when we moved to the states. I was young enough at the time that it wasn't a big deal; my mom though was in her late 20s and assimilated very successfully.) I find it kind of cool that our country is big and diverse enough that you can end up in areas where you as a white english speaker aren't always the majority.

As for the Xmas in school stuff, it doesn't bother me that the cultural aspects of it are included, just as it doesn't bother me if my kids come home and say they learned that some people celebrate Kwanzaa and what that's about, or did a play about witches at Halloween or dressed up like the gods of Roman mythology, etc. As long as all religions and religious figures are treated equally (and with the same respect and diginity that is afforded contemporaries like the Easter Bunny, Cupid, Punxsutawney Phil, and the Tooth Fairy) then I have no problem with them being exposed to it. But, in a public school, when you start talking about the possibility of introducing mythical beings as part of science class, or in ANY way endorsing their actual existence, then you've crossed a constitutional (and common sense) line. If you want your kids indoctrinated in that way, that needs to be taken care of in your home, church or a private 'school'. No one in a publically funded institution has any business teaching my children to fear and respect imaginary beings, be they ghosts, demons, prophets or deitys. And there's no way in hell my thinking that way makes me less of an American than anyone else.

[slapheadmofo]

. Believe me, the alternative to what we now have is far, far worse. We're talking Taliban. And it starts with a state religion.



Words of wisdom right there.

[catbbq]

This thread (not the joke) is one of the most stupid I have seen on here yet.



I love people that complain about a thread, and then post in it.


I love you too man.

[BG]

" No one in a publically funded institution has any business teaching my children to fear and respect imaginary beings, be they ghosts, demons, prophets or deitys."

Yes, let us leave that to the private sector. :o ;D ;D

BG

[GeepNutt]

What does make someone less of a citizen is demanding concessions if they're too lazy or too full of misplaced cultural 'pride' to learn English.


Couldn't have said it any better.......

[Mr_Cheeze]

Most of you guys seem to know something about politics even if you can't agree. But I am pretty sure none of you know anything about Christianity other than what makes for a good news story.

Christians drink booze. The bible says beer and wine are fine, you should shy away from hard liquor, and getting drunk is a bad idea.

Christians listen to all kinds of music. Jazz, rock, christian.

Christians dance.

Many of the happiest most well adjusted tolerant people I know are born again. I haven't met any in New England, although I assume there are some around.

Regardless of what you think you know, Christianity doesn't preach hatred or single mindedness. Quiet the opposite. But that doesn't make good headlines, so how could you know?

Of course this doesn't apply to all Christians. They are just like everyone else in that some are stupid and ignorant and bigoted. Some don't drink, just like some athiests don't drink. etc, and etc....


I seem to have touched a nerve. Not surprising, since any religious discussion of a frank nature is almost always apt to raise someone's hackles. I won't get into a big discussion as to what is or is not taught within that particular faith. Let's just leave it at that I am in no way ignorant to their tenets and teachings and guidelines. The one comment I will make is thus: It is rather curious that Born Agains feel free, or to be more precise, are taught to criticize every other religion and Christian sect, especially Catholics; and yet, as you have proven, they are pretty sensitive to having their own faith criticized. Then again, all Christians seem to be pretty sensitive to having their particular faith criticized, which is why it borders on hypocrisy for one sect to criticize another when they all aim for the same basic thing. Me? I criticize them all equally and with gusto!

[Jesus]

Jesus disapproves his brothers and sisters fighting over silliness. Jesus wishes you all a happy and safe Christmas. If you drink too much malt liquor, make your biatch drive.

[kernel crash]

Yo Jesus. I want to talk to you about my Christmas wish list. I have no faith in the fat man getting down my chimney this year. Give me a ring or a divine intervention. Oh, and happy birthday.

[off piste]

I have no faith in the fat man getting down my chimney this year.


Always good to hear from the Buddhists.