Aliens (Not the ones in the silver ships)

[GeepNutt]

OK, now that we have saved all the wildlife in the Artic we can move on to more pressing issues.

I thought this was a no brainer but after talking to some friends and co-workers I'm not so sure. Am I the only one that thinks giving illegal immigrants breaks on college tuition is a bad idea? I do realize that I live in Massachusetts where stranger things have happened, but I think we need to draw a line somewhere.

Bottom line, I can't see rewarding people for illegal behavior, period.

[catbbq]

That's a tough one. While I do agree with not rewarding illegal behavior, the kids that would be getting the break often didn't have any choice in the matter. If a kid is brought into this country at age 7, goes to school, does well, graduates near the top of their class but then gets nix on going to college with their friends because their parents snuck across a border 10 years before.... yeah, that's a tough one.

Perhaps some type of standardized test? Just kidding. If the kid does really well in school, perhaps some type of agreement with the government. Really low interest loans or something.

But if he graduates with a C average and wants to major in "General Studies", forget it.

I will head the board that gets to decide on a case by case basis, at a very reasonable salary of $250,000 a year.

[Mr_Cheeze]

It depends upon where this tuition break comes from. We're talking about state colleges and universities? Then it means these breaks come out of the taxpayers' pockets, not to mention a potential slot for said institution being taken from a legal resident or out of stater. I agree with Lt. Gov. Healey all the way on this one. Innocent children or not, there are right ways of doing things, the first of which is taking legal channels to enter the country. It is not right to reward an illegal act with benefits at the expense of taxpayers.

[mtbtom]

I don't understand why everyone is so up in arms over this. You are talking about the children of illegal immigrants - not illegal immigrants and they would pay IN STATE TUITION RATE - not a special discounted 'off spring of illegal immigrant's rate'. Many of these people grew up in Massachusetts and all graduated from Massachusetts high schools - why are THEY being punished ? In addition, a college education is good way to become a contributing member of society, i.e tax payer as opposed to a tax consumer.

The point about children of illegal immigrants taking up a slot of another person who is somehow "more entitled" to an education at a state university is a non-issue. Admission should be based on scholastic achievement and aptitude not your family history.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I don't understand why everyone is so up in arms over this. You are talking about the children of illegal immigrants - not illegal immigrants and they would pay IN STATE TUITION RATE - not a special discounted 'off spring of illegal immigrant's rate'. Many of these people grew up in Massachusetts and all graduated from Massachusetts high schools - why are THEY being punished ? In addition, a college education is good way to become a contributing member of society, i.e tax payer as opposed to a tax consumer.


Unfortunately it is not as simple as merely charging in-state tuition rate. Because these are state, public institutions, the rules apply differently than private schools that can do whatever they want. Once you factor in tax revenue potentially being used to make up for any tuition break, it is incumbant upon those schools to use any allocations at the benefit of state taxpayers. If you want to get technical about it, out-of-staters are what they are, whether they come from Rhode Island or Maine, or China, illegally or not.


The point about children of illegal immigrants taking up a slot of another person who is somehow "more entitled" to an education at a state university is a non-issue. Admission should be based on scholastic achievement and aptitude not your family history.

Putting the legal resident question aside for a moment, yes, admission should absolutely be based on merit. I agree. However, we both know that our universities also consider race and gender when filling quotas, in order to satisfy Affirmative Action requirements. So there goes that logic.

When I went to SMU, there were lots of Chinese nationals as students, mostly all of which were in engineering. I am certain they were there by merit. So I don't have a problem with that. But they should have been paying the same rate that Rhode Islanders had to pay. That's all.

[GeepNutt]

I don't understand why everyone is so up in arms over this. You are talking about the children of illegal immigrants - not illegal immigrants and they would pay IN STATE TUITION RATE - not a special discounted 'off spring of illegal immigrant's rate'. Many of these people grew up in Massachusetts and all graduated from Massachusetts high schools - why are THEY being punished ? In addition, a college education is good way to become a contributing member of society, i.e tax payer as opposed to a tax consumer.

The point about children of illegal immigrants taking up a slot of another person who is somehow "more entitled" to an education at a state university is a non-issue. Admission should be based on scholastic achievement and aptitude not your family history.


We are talking children of illegal immigrants that still retain illegal status. Thus, to reward them is insane. What about the folks that came over legally and followed the system? What do you tell them?

I agree that admission should be based on achievment but in this "Affirmative Action" country that is just not the case anymore.

If I remember correctly the in state rate is $9000 per year. The out of state rate is $25000 per year. Quite a discount for breaking the law.

[mtbtom]

If I remember correctly the in state rate is $9000 per year. The out of state rate is $25000 per year. Quite a discount for breaking the law.


They are not breaking the law. If one of your family members commits a crime should you go to jail for it ?

[mtbtom]

Unfortunately it is not as simple as merely charging in-state tuition rate. Because these are state, public institutions, the rules apply differently than private schools that can do whatever they want. Once you factor in tax revenue potentially being used to make up for any tuition break, it is incumbant upon those schools to use any allocations at the benefit of state taxpayers. If you want to get technical about it, out-of-staters are what they are, whether they come from Rhode Island or Maine, or China, illegally or not.


But they are not "out of staters". They grew up here, and graduated from Massachusetts High schools. What the hell is the problem with this ?

Why are people so vindictive ? I put myself through 5 years at UMASS/Boston let me tell you even paying in state tuition rates IT IS NOT CHEAP. The lack of empathy by some of you people is unbelievable - put yourselves in their shoes and see how you feel about it.

[GeepNutt]

If I remember correctly the in state rate is $9000 per year. The out of state rate is $25000 per year. Quite a discount for breaking the law.


They are not breaking the law. If one of your family members commits a crime should you go to jail for it ?


Apples and oranges....

They are in fact law breakers whether you choose to believe it or not.

[mtbtom]

Apples and oranges....

They are in fact law breakers whether you choose to believe it or not.


Oh really ? Explain it then - what law(s) are they breaking ?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Unfortunately it is not as simple as merely charging in-state tuition rate. Because these are state, public institutions, the rules apply differently than private schools that can do whatever they want. Once you factor in tax revenue potentially being used to make up for any tuition break, it is incumbant upon those schools to use any allocations at the benefit of state taxpayers. If you want to get technical about it, out-of-staters are what they are, whether they come from Rhode Island or Maine, or China, illegally or not.


But they are not "out of staters". They grew up here, and graduated from Massachusetts High schools. What the hell is the problem with this ?

Why are people so vindictive ? I put myself through 5 years at UMASS/Boston let me tell you even paying in state tuition rates IT IS NOT CHEAP. The lack of empathy by some of you people is unbelievable - put yourselves in their shoes and see how you feel about it.


It isn't about empathy. Christ, I have lots of empathy for all kinds of people. Does that mean I think public funds should be used to help any of them, just because I feel their pain? If it were up to me, I would be billing their families to have their kids in publics schools, too; because if they are illegal and without a social security number, they aren't paying taxes. No taxes, no benefits. Sorry.

[Rych]

If Mass. gave this tuition break to illegals then you are just encouraging more illegals to migrate to Massachusetts which will put a further strain on a broken system. Plus once these kids get into the college they will be applying and more than likely getting tuition assistence that would have gone to a legal resident.

[GeepNutt]

Apples and oranges....

They are in fact law breakers whether you choose to believe it or not.


Oh really ? Explain it then - what law(s) are they breaking ?


You asked you got it... Want more?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=8&sec=1325

United States Code
TITLE 8 - ALIENS AND NATIONALITY
CHAPTER 12 - IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY
SUBCHAPTER II - IMMIGRATION
PART VIII - GENERAL PENALTY PROVISIONS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Code as of: 01/06/03
Section 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.
(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the
purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than
$250,000, or both.
(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise
for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws
shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance
with title 18, or both.

[stich]

Here's a solution:
http://66.90.81.26/~slim/tweek/files/loobia.wmv

[vinnycactus]

that is one of the funniest videos i have ever seen....

[mtbtom]

Sorry, don't see it. These are their kids we're talking about, brought here by their parents or born or naturalized here. They didn't break any laws.

You could also make an argument that given a college education they will earn the opportunity to pay back it back + more into "the system" but apparently that point is lost on you.

I suppose your ancestors got here on the Mayflower ? Jeeze.





Apples and oranges....

They are in fact law breakers whether you choose to believe it or not.


Oh really ? Explain it then - what law(s) are they breaking ?


You asked you got it... Want more?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=8&sec=1325

United States Code
TITLE 8 - ALIENS AND NATIONALITY
CHAPTER 12 - IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY
SUBCHAPTER II - IMMIGRATION
PART VIII - GENERAL PENALTY PROVISIONS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Code as of: 01/06/03
Section 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.
(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the
purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than
$250,000, or both.
(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise
for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws
shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance
with title 18, or both.

[GeepNutt]

Again, you don't get it. If they are born or naturalized here it is not an issue. They are not illegal.

When one reaches high school age we can only hope that they know right from wrong. There are ways for them to become citizens and avoid the whole mess. If going to college is such a dream to them and they are so smart let them go about it in a legal manner. Become documented, pay taxes, etc.

Has anyone even thought about the other ramifications? If we accept them and give them the in state rate, what is there to stop someone from any other state from filing a lawsuit to attend at the lower rate as well. I can see lawyers lining up to battle this one already.

[TrailBate]

So these kids can either pay for college, get out and get decent jobs, and start paying into the system.

or

they can get crap jobs and collect welfare.


how about give them the in-state rate, but make them work in the school cafeteria.

[mtbtom]

When one reaches high school age we can only hope that they know right from wrong. There are ways for them to become citizens and avoid the whole mess. If going to college is such a dream to them and they are so smart let them go about it in a legal manner. Become documented pay taxes, etc

Are you at all familiar with the bill ? One of the provisions is that they are seeking citizenship or permanent residency here ! So I still don't see what the big deal is - they should be afforded the same opportunities as their high schools classmates. I guess on this issue, we can agree to disagree. Oh, and the video was friggin lame - that's supposed to be funny ? Maybe in a grade school cruel idiotic type of way. If it is real (and I highly doubt it is) that miserable bigoted Woody Allen look-alike twerp driving the truck is lucky he didn't get his ass kicked. Comforting to know we have cretins like that "defending" the homeland.

[Mr_Cheeze]

::)

Oh, go and Ceasar Chavez or some ****. Friggin beaner.

[Rych]

One of the provisions is that they are seeking citizenship or permanent residency here ! So I still don't see what the big deal is - they should be afforded the same opportunities as their high schools classmates. I guess on this issue, we can agree to disagree. Oh, and the video was friggin lame - that's supposed to be funny ? Maybe in a grade school cruel idiotic type of way. If it is real (and I highly doubt it is) that miserable bigoted Woody Allen look-alike twerp driving the truck is lucky he didn't get his ass kicked.


I thought the video was funny and real. I saw another video with this guy where he brings his KKK robe in to a Harlem Dry Cleaner to be cleaned. I found that video offensive, but this one did not bother me.

What does seeking citizenship mean. I'm seeking tonight's $262 mega millions jackpot, but that does not mean I have the same claim to the money as the actual winner.

[Rych]

I suppose your ancestors got here on the Mayflower ? Jeeze.





I'm sick of this backhanded argument.
Yes my ancestors immigrated here legally, around 1900 when our country was bursting at the seams with 75 million people. We now are approaching 300 million people and its time to say the melting pot is full. If we truly have a need for migrant workers, then set up a legal system to allow them to enter the country with some sort of sponsorship.

[mtbtom]

I thought the video was funny and real.


Some quotes from the "movie":

"Mexican's all they're good for is working and having babies"

As said to the 'dirty' mexican immigrant attempting to ride in his passenger seat: "You can't get in the cab, I just cleaned it."

That's FUNNY to you ? Sad...

[slapheadmofo]

Sounds like there's a communicatin problem in this thread between some people talking about illegal immigrants themselves, while others are talking about children of illegal immigrants that were born here (the children, not the immigrants).

I say cut the kids a break, but don't do **** for the illegals themselves besides deport them. Isn't a child born in this country to an illegal immigrant considered a citizen anyway, or something like that?

[Rych]

Sounds like there's a communicatin problem in this thread between some people talking about illegal immigrants themselves, while others are talking about children of illegal immigrants that were born here (the children, not the immigrants).

I say cut the kids a break, but don't do **** for the illegals themselves besides deport them. Isn't a child born in this country to an illegal immigrant considered a citizen anyway, or something like that?


Yes. They are citizens. They are not the people we are talking about. What we are talking about is the kids born in another county who were brought here by their criminal parents. I think I'd go along with this tuition break idea for current kids in the high schools if the government started saying no to new illegals looking to matriculate into our public schools. I think if the criminals were no longer able to educate their kids on our dime, then part of the vacuum that encourages this illegal activity would stop.

[bdee]

Not to derail this thread but that video wasn't funny. Whether it was real or not it was stupid and reinforces a sh*tload of stereotypes.

What would've been funny is if those guys had kicked that longhaired Kenny G look a like racist's ass up and down the street, stole his truck and took it back to Mexico. Then they could've loaded it up with their buddies and snuck back across the border with even more Mexicans. That would've been hilarous.

Why the hell is anyone against these kids getting a college education at the in state rate if they are becoming citizens? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess a lot of them worked in HS and might all ready be paying taxes and are in the "system", or are going to be shortly. And how exactly would kids from other states have the right to sue for the in state rate? Generally schools have their own rules with regard to determining who receives what rate. For example in NC you have to be a resident of the state for a year and you have to prove it. So let's say some kid from RI wants to go to UMASS and he's a 5th generation American citizen. How exactly can he sue for the in state rate without meeting the school's criteria for residency? If he can't prove MA residency and isn't the son of an illegal immigrant where's the loophole to allow the lawsuit?

I'm not sure anyone for this type of provision thinks it's going to solve any larger immigration issue. It seems like it's been developed to allow those interested to better themselves and become more productive citizens of the state (while becoming citizens at the same time). Go ahead and call me a liberal or whatever else I got coming to me, it's OK I can take it. Although I've gotta say you don't have to be "liberal" to think that video was racist and f**king weak.

[FriedRys]

Not to derail this thread but that video wasn't funny. Whether it was real or not it was stupid and reinforces a sh*tload of stereotypes. I thought it was pretty funny, and stereotypes exist for a reason.



What would've been funny is if those guys had kicked that longhaired Kenny G look a like racist's ass up and down the street, stole his truck and took it back to Mexico. Then they could've loaded it up with their buddies and snuck back across the border with even more Mexicans. That would've been hilarous.
Whats that about reinforcing stereotypes?

[bdee]

Not to derail this thread but that video wasn't funny. Whether it was real or not it was stupid and reinforces a sh*tload of stereotypes. I thought it was pretty funny, and stereotypes exist for a reason.



What would've been funny is if those guys had kicked that longhaired Kenny G look a like racist's ass up and down the street, stole his truck and took it back to Mexico. Then they could've loaded it up with their buddies and snuck back across the border with even more Mexicans. That would've been hilarous.
Whats that about reinforcing stereotypes?


What stereotype am I reinforcing exactly? That Kenny G is a racist and drives a pickup? ???

I think the wealthy prick getting his ass handed to him by less forunate people he took advantage of for laughs would've been karmic justice. He's an ass, that's my opinion not a stereotype.

Unless you are trying to argue that I'm reinforcing a Mexican immigrant stereotype. i.e. - the first thing they would do is drive right back across the border with their buddies. IF that's the case it's a stretch, the scenario was meant to illustrate that Mr. Pickup needed to get his comeuppance and what better way than for those he exploited to bring even more of those "dirty" Mexicans back with him.

[catbbq]

IF that's the case it's a stretch, the scenario was meant to illustrate that Mr. Pickup needed to get his comeuppance and what better way than for those he exploited to bring even more of those "dirty" Mexicans back with him.


He never says they are dirty. Perhaps he doesn't want them in the cab because he just had the seats cleaned and they're still damp.

[Rych]

IF that's the case it's a stretch, the scenario was meant to illustrate that Mr. Pickup needed to get his comeuppance and what better way than for those he exploited to bring even more of those "dirty" Mexicans back with him.


He never says they are dirty. Perhaps he doesn't want them in the cab because he just had the seats cleaned and they're still damp.


More than likely he did think they were dirty because he is a racist. But I think he didn't want them in the front because he had a cameraman sitting there.

[Mr_Cheeze]

For christ's sake, some of you asswads need to remove the PC stick out of your ass. Jeez.

[vinnycactus]

i'd have to agree with the cheeze man.

[Slider]

Racism is not a joke. Calling attention to it is not PC, just the right thing to do. Defending it by calling objections to it PC is typical righty behavior.

Leaving a racist comment unchallenged might imply that NEMBA members are ignorant. We can't have that, so I'm glad bdee and mtbtom stepped up.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

Uh oh, boys. It's the racism police again. ::)

I guess none of you have ever laughed at a Chris Rock or Richard Pryor routine. What? You have? Well, gee. That's pretty racist stuff.

What am I saying. Of course you never laugh at such drivel... except when Michael Moore is pulling the same kind of stunts against corporate executives. Or perhaps Bill Maher. Funny guy, right? I agree. But hey, his humor is bigoted against religious folk! Oh, that's different. Those people deserve it!

You know, you ask for this whenever you bandy about the racism charge when all anyone is doing is chuckling at a funny bit. Don't say that you were just calling the video guy a racist. The implication is that anyone who laughs at it is likewise guilty. Well political correctness and hypocrisy are cousins.

[GeepNutt]

And how exactly would kids from other states have the right to sue for the in state rate? Generally schools have their own rules with regard to determining who receives what rate. For example in NC you have to be a resident of the state for a year and you have to prove it. So let's say some kid from RI wants to go to UMASS and he's a 5th generation American citizen. How exactly can he sue for the in state rate without meeting the school's criteria for residency? If he can't prove MA residency and isn't the son of an illegal immigrant where's the loophole to allow the lawsuit?


Basically if you allow an illegal immigrant from another country to attend your state school for a reduced rate, what is to stop a US citizen from another state from arguing that he should be allowed to attend said state instituiton based on the fact that he is a legal US resident and should receive consideration before the illegal resident.

There are already lawsuits in other states....

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/jul/19/suit_challenges_instate/?print

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050823-105220-1267r.htm