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View Full Version : Thank god they stopped Lynndie England


Slider
September 26th, 2005, 07:37 PM
So England is guilty. I bet our scum Attorney General is breathing a sigh of relief that it hasn't tainted his blossoming career, not to mention the rest of the sickos in the obvious chain all the way to the top.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/26/national/26cnd-england.html?hp&ex=1127793600&en=1a16991efae78fa7& ei=5094&partner=homepage

September 26, 2005
Soldier Convicted of Abusing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib Prison
By JENNIFER BAYOT
Presented with starkly different portrayals of the young soldier notorious for her grinning photos with naked Iraqi detainees, a jury of Army officers convicted Pfc. Lynndie R. England today of mistreating prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.

The five jurors reached the verdict after two hours of deliberation in a military court in Fort Hood, Tex., resolving the final case against the nine enlisted soldiers involved in the prisoner abuse. The mistreatment created an international scandal when it came to light last year, and officials in the Bush administration have acknowledged that it has undermined America's credibility in the Middle East, exposing grave breakdowns in the unit guarding Abu Ghraib.

Wearing her forest-green dress uniform, Private England, 22, betrayed no emotion and was characteristically expressionless as she received the verdict, an Army spokesman said.

She was found guilty of six of the seven counts against her, including four counts of mistreatment, one count of conspiracy and one count of indecency. She was acquitted on another conspiracy charge. Jurors will decide Tuesday on her sentence; she faces a maximum of 10 years in a military prison.

The outcome of the trial rested on how the all-male jury answered a question that has been a frequent and heated source of debate since photos of the prisoner mistreatment became public. What exactly prompted Private England and others to subject the detainees to such mistreatment - and to photograph it in apparently high spirits?

One photo submitted as evidence - and among those circulated internationally last year - shows Private England leading a crawling prisoner on a leash. In another, she is smiling widely and flashing a thumb-up and pointing to naked Iraqi detainees.

Describing her as a troubled young woman with learning disabilities and a history of depression, the defense argued that Private England had participated in the abuse at the behest of a fellow soldier who oversaw a cellblock there, Pfc. Charles A. Graner Jr., her boyfriend at the time and the estranged father of her child.

"She was a follower; she was an individual who was smitten with Graner," Private England's lawyer, Capt. Jonathan Crisp, said today during closing arguments, The Associated Press reported. "She just did whatever he wanted her to do." Private Graner was convicted in January of helping direct the prisoner abuse and was sentenced to 10 years in military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

Dr. Xavier Amador, a psychologist, testified that Private England had an abusive relationship with Private Graner and that her "overly compliant" personality made her incapable of making independent judgments about the detainees' mistreatment.

But prosecutors portrayed Private England as an enthusiastic participant in the mistreatment, which occurred in 2003, and argued that she found the humiliating poses amusing.

"The accused knew what she was doing," Capt. Chris Graveline, the lead prosecutor, said during closing arguments today, according to The Associated Press. Gesturing toward a photo, he said, "she is enjoying, she is participating, all for her own sick humor."

To rebut defense arguments that the photographs showed legitimate interrogation practices, prosecutors said the detainees were not being questioned at the time and noted that their heads were shrouded and hands were bound. Furthermore, they argued, Private England was not a guard but a file clerk and thus had no reason to be handling prisoners.

Private England had been close to pleading guilty in May in exchange for a more lenient sentence when the judge overseeing the case, Col. James L. Pohl, unexpectedly declared her first court-martial a mistrial and barred the plea deal. He said Private England's admission of guilt had been contradicted by testimony from Private Graner suggesting that the episode with the leash was a legitimate use of force.

"If Private Graner is to be believed, he was not violating any law, so you could not be violating any law," Colonel Pohl told Private England. "If you don't believe you were guilty doing what Graner told you, you can't plead guilty."

The turn of events echoed the drama in the private lives of Private England and Private Graner, who parted ways after the Abu Ghraib scandal. Private Graner married another woman only days before Private England's first court-martial earlier this year.

While Private England became the face of the scandal, human rights advocates have suggested that the officers in charge of Abu Ghraib have not been held sufficiently accountable for the abuse there. They point out that none have been court-martialed, although the general in charge of Abu Ghraib has been demoted and more than a dozen officers have received reprimands or other administrative punishments.

Changing the tone at the military's highest levels, they argue, is crucial to preventing further mistreatment, especially if it has become commonplace. In a report released last week by the group Human Rights Watch, three former members of the Army's elite 82nd Airborne Division asserted that their fellow soldiers in Iraq routinely beat and abused prisoners in 2003 and 2004, not only to help gather intelligence on the insurgency but also to amuse themselves. The allegations are currently the focus of a criminal investigation by the Army.

TrailBate
September 26th, 2005, 09:50 PM
Thank God. That should be the last we hear about these isolated events by a few bad apples.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-09-23-army-abuse-investigation_x.htm


oops.

Mr_Cheeze
September 27th, 2005, 08:26 AM
four counts of mistreatment, one count of conspiracy and one count of indecency...

...One photo submitted as evidence - and among those circulated internationally last year - shows Private England leading a crawling prisoner on a leash. In another, she is smiling widely and flashing a thumb-up and pointing to naked Iraqi detainees.


Oh what heinous crimes. ::) Maybe they should just forget about the 10 year max and give her a life sentence. No prisoner should ever have to suffer the outragious indignity of being photographed naked and on a dog leash.

If she gets even a year, that is WAY too much. Please. Enough with the outrage already. What she did was wrong, yes. But this isn't even as bad as college frat hazing, for christ's sake.

Slider
September 27th, 2005, 08:31 AM
What she was charged with was a tiny portion of what happened. That's why she was the chosen whipping, um, girl. There were far more serious things, like beatings and deaths. You won't see publicity over those trials, if they ever happen.

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Mr_Cheeze
September 27th, 2005, 08:44 AM
What she was charged with was a tiny portion of what happened. That's why she was the chosen whipping, um, girl. There were far more serious things, like beatings and deaths. You won't see publicity over those trials, if they ever happen.

Slider


And your source for this info is...

Slider
September 27th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Well, there's all kinds of diocumentation about some of the deaths, as plugging Iraq +torture +death into Google will reveal.

But there's a problem. Since the US kept many "ghost" prisoners, with no documentation, and shipped many others to countries where torture is routine, they'll remain undisclosed for ever. That was the plan.

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Rych
September 27th, 2005, 09:58 AM
So we put dog leases on naked prisoners and they cut off heads on TV...I wouldn't call this a push.

Slider
September 27th, 2005, 10:30 AM
So you're suggesting we get into beheading? If not, why?

Well the obvious reason is that we're not like that. Or, at least, weren't until the Treasonator and the slime he got from under various rocks took power.

Sldier

Rych
September 27th, 2005, 03:37 PM
So you're suggesting we get into beheading? If not, why?

Well the obvious reason is that we're not like that. Or, at least, weren't until the Treasonator and the slime he got from under various rocks took power.

Sldier


No beheadings for us. Dead men tell no tales. However, torture is fine with me if there is even a 1% chance the prisoner information we need to save American lives. I'm not talking about that high school BS England was doing. I'm talking about trained interrogators doing what ever it takes to extract information that could save lives.

TrailBate
September 27th, 2005, 04:07 PM
No beheadings for us. Dead men tell no tales. However, torture is fine with me if there is even a 1% chance the prisoner information we need to save American lives. I'm not talking about that high school BS England was doing. I'm talking about trained interrogators doing what ever it takes to extract information that could save lives.




1%, huh? Who decides this? This is the kind of fascist crap we're suppose to be fighting AGAINST.

Slider
September 27th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Tortured men tell no tales, either. Especially the ones that are willing to strap a load of explosives to themselves and die for Allah.

The policy was far more than non-productive, though. Like Bush, it is clear that you have no perception about what used to distinguish us from third rate dictatorships. And no sense for the ideals that once let us confidently carry a banner that said we we about bettering the world in some way. Now, we're simply scum like those we profess to condemn. And we wonder why we got no foreign support for the Iraq invasion, or why our own people are abandoning their previous support for it.

I guess it is to be expected when even treason does not lead some to question the motives of the president. I mean, if the president is a traitor to the US, and he is not prosecuted, what are we defending? I guess a little torture is meaningless in that light.

Slider

Rych
September 28th, 2005, 10:46 AM
Tortured men tell no tales, either. Especially the ones that are willing to strap a load of explosives to themselves and die for Allah.



I don't know if that's true or not. My guess is there are worse things than dead.

If you have two terrorist with the same information, the first one you put in a warm cell in Cuba and feed three squares a day, and allow prayer time.

The second terrorist is tortured in a way we can only imagine. Which is more likely to give it up? I guess you would say neither

TrailBate
September 28th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Tortured men tell no tales, either. Especially the ones that are willing to strap a load of explosives to themselves and die for Allah.




I don't know if that's true or not. My guess is there are worse things than dead.

If you have two terrorist with the same information, the first one you put in a warm cell in Cuba and feed three squares a day, and allow prayer time.

The second terrorist is tortured in a way we can only imagine. Which is more likely to give it up? I guess you would say neither



First, you'd have to find 2 terrorists that actually have info (and are actually terrorists. You know, NOT Afghanistan cab drivers).

Second, I'm sure the torture is already happening. Who knows where it has gotten us, if anywhere.

Rych
September 28th, 2005, 11:47 AM
BTW...I do not think that we should torture uniformed enemy soldiers.