change of mind?

[catbbq]

I have replied to a couple of the rediculous topics currently under discussion here on the forums and it got me thinking. I don't see anyone changing their minds. It really comes down to about 4 unnamed guys, 2 liberals, 2 conservatives, that seem to have plenty of time on their hands.

First question is, has any of their postings changed your mind? Do you think they are even trying to convince anyone? If not, what purpose does it serve? Granted, I am slightly entertained by it, like watching a friend endo on the trail. Its funny to see, but still sad. Whats worse is that I participate. How sad is that?

As far as politic go, my last real change of mind was in college in the early 90's. Being from Arkansas, I saw Clinton go from governor to president. But I became very disillusioned with the Democratic party, mostly because Clinton first told the state he would not run for president in '92. That is when I got turned on to the Libertarians. My rationale? From my middle class, white perspective, the country is doing a pretty good job of ensuring my social rights. There aren't many things that I want to do that the government bars me from. But on the conservative side, I feel pain constantly. My taxes are too high. Right now, my wife is working as a contractor on a 1099, so she has no taxes withheld. We set up a savings account to "save" the tax that we will have to pay at the end of the year. That account has more money in it than any other account we have. Sure we could have more and fix that problem, but when the government takes almost half of what you make, it isn't fair.

So I vote libertarian when I can. That means I vote for using drugs and paying for your own damn way. But don't expect me to use drugs and don't expect me to pay your way.

[nhiker]

So I vote libertarian when I can. That means I vote for using drugs and paying for your own damn way. But don't expect me to use drugs and don't expect me to pay your way.


Amen!

[slapheadmofo]

I've learned a little bit in the discussions, but mainly found that there are some serious blowhards here who can't even fathom that any opinion that isn't absolutely in line with their own has any merit whatsoever, and the best way to respond to any dissent is to either spin endless circles or dish out personal insults.


blah blah blah bitch and moan endlessly, never give an inch, and accomplish nothing

::)

1099 taxes need to be pre-paid on a quarterly basis or there is a big fine. BIG FINE. You are responsible for estimating and sending in the proper amount, your bank will usually set up an accout with auto checking to help with this. Then if you overpay you can get a refund or if you under pay then you can pay more on April 15.

I am right with you on the political threads. Been there, done the same sad thing. Live and learn. Never go there, never get pissed. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, tho not all are worth something.

Things have gotten much better. There was a time during the heat of the election season(does that ever end anymore) when the fighting spilled over into the other threads and you could not avoid it. I appreciate the self disapline now enployed.

In the end it's like a singer or actor going on the stump for a pol. If you shared their opinion already then you are happy to have the celibrity spokesperson, but it is rare that the popularity of the voice could ever overshadow a message you found repulsive.

To sum up, I am happy the boys are enjoying their game, just keep it in your own yard.

bill
Holier then thou, prancing high on my self-rightious horse.

[TrailBate]

I've learned a little bit in the discussions, but mainly found that there are some serious blowhards here who can't even fathom that any opinion that isn't absolutely in line with their own has any merit whatsoever, and the best way to respond to any dissent is to either spin endless circles or dish out personal insults.


blah blah blah bitch and moan endlessly, never give an inch, and accomplish nothing

::)



Haven't you ever had a sports debate? Those can sound just as heated as the political arguments. You can't take all of it too seriously.

But on the other hand, everyone is not entitled to their own facts. You can argue why we aren't withdrawing from Iraq right away. But you can't argue that Bush lied out his ass before the invasion.

[catbbq]

1099 taxes need to be pre-paid on a quarterly basis or there is a big fine. BIG FINE. You are responsible for estimating and sending in the proper amount, your bank will usually set up an accout with auto checking to help with this. Then if you overpay you can get a refund or if you under pay then you can pay more on April 15.



Since this is her first year at 1099, she doesn't have to do the pre-pay. Next year will be a different story.

And no, I can safely say I have never had a heated sports debate. I stick with politics and religion.

[kernel crash]

"But you can't argue that Bush lied out his ass before the invasion. "

I believe you could certainly argue that point based on intellegence from many sources. But seeing how Bush did such a poor job of making that point for himself, I won't attempt to make it for him.

[slapheadmofo]

I've learned a little bit in the discussions, but mainly found that there are some serious blowhards here who can't even fathom that any opinion that isn't absolutely in line with their own has any merit whatsoever, and the best way to respond to any dissent is to either spin endless circles or dish out personal insults.


blah blah blah bitch and moan endlessly, never give an inch, and accomplish nothing

::)



Haven't you ever had a sports debate? Those can sound just as heated as the political arguments. You can't take all of it too seriously.

But on the other hand, everyone is not entitled to their own facts. You can argue why we aren't withdrawing from Iraq right away. But you can't argue that Bush lied out his ass before the invasion.


Actually, no, I've never had a sports debate; I don't understand the whole 'sports fan' thing in the least bit. Strikes me as childish, to tell you the truth, even more so when people get all worked up arguing about some guys they don't even know playing a kids game.

But on the other hand, I never argued one way or another on the topic you mention, but for some reason some of you can't stop bringing it into every conversation and going on like a frigging broken record.

[catbbq]

But on the other hand, everyone is not entitled to their own facts. You can argue why we aren't withdrawing from Iraq right away. But you can't argue that Bush lied out his ass before the invasion.


Surprisingly, the first 3 replies were on topic, then BOOM. Maybe by the 30th page of replies, the issue will be resolved.

[Slider]

I have changed my mind. I once thought that the overwhelming evidence that Bush is a lying, treasonous, draft-dodging war monger in bed with the oil industry would lead even his most gullible backers to admit they made a terrible mistake. I guess I was wrong. ;D

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

Surprisingly, the first 3 replies were on topic, then BOOM.

Not so surprising when you look at the author. Only thing that surprises me is that his little buddy didn't beat him to it (though he did catch up a couple posts later.

Just goes to show that not only will no one change their minds, some people can't even handle changing to a different topic. 100s of pages of repetitive ranting, and they still insist on wheeling out the same tired crap in any new thread that pops up, no matter what the subject.

blah blah blah....

[Slider]

I was 100% serious, and on topic.

Slider

[Quo Fan]

You're right cat, the same 4 people post the same drivel on each topic. That is why I never post to these threads. That and the 2 subjects I never discuss/argue/debate are religion and politics. It doesn't matter what I or you say, neither of us will ever change our minds.

[TrailBate]

I enjoy debating. It's fun. But It can also get frustrating.

I know Cheeze has changed his mind about a few things. I dont' know if his mind changed here, or not.

For those of you who are debating and complaining about people debating and complaining, why are you on this thread debating and complaining?

blah blah blah bitch and moan endlessly, never give an inch, and accomplish nothing

::)



I have it from a reptutable source that at least one of them does it on rides as well.

All i could say was, "were i there, we would have had us a real s.t.f.u.a.r. moment"

Still it is good to know what to expect from ride participants before you go. I would not prejudice my decision about riding with someone based on their opinions or how they chose to express them "off the bike" . But do it on a ride ?? yeah , the last ride.

[gnurider1080]

the governator for prez!!! ;D seriously, conan the barbarian could kick the crap out of al qeada with his massive biceps.



yeah, i thought this thread needed to be livened up a bit.

[catbbq]

Oh, I just figured it out! How stupid I was!

Its not about debate (in debate, people make points using facts) and its not about being right (or left, depending on your perspective).

Its about having the last word. They guy who is still posting the same drivel after 25 pages is simply not secure enough to just let it go.

I'm glad we had this dicussion.

[TrailBate]

I have even taken sides in an argument that I don't actually agree with. Just for the fun of debating. ;D

[Mr_Cheeze]

I enjoy debating. It's fun. But It can also get frustrating.

I know Cheeze has changed his mind about a few things. I dont' know if his mind changed here, or not.

For those of you who are debating and complaining about people debating and complaining, why are you on this thread debating and complaining?


One thing, really. George Bush's war in Iraq. My mind changed, not because of any arguments here, but because by about the third change of reason for the war, I was already disillusioned. So I guess you can say that George Bush changed my mind.

Like cat, I made a personal decision to snub the major parties and vote for some... any third. I was once interested in the Libertarians, but eventually found that many of their platforms to be too far out. That and their complete inability to put forth a decent candidate with even a smidgen of charisma. I am a supporter of libertarian (small L) ideas and ideals, though.

As a far as sports debates go, yes they are pretty silly, but fun. Nothing wrong with some lighthearted fun. I do listen to sports radio because I am constantly amazed at how serious so many people are about their teams. I often have to shake my head because some blue collar dink is having a complete nutty over something Manny Ramirez did, unable to come to terms with the fact that he makes 20 million a year and the unfortunate fact that he is still human.

And religion? My favorite topic of discussion! Unfortunately, some people get really, really, really, really, really pissed when they see opinions that are counter their beliefs. (In fact, one of those very people has posted in this thread.) One has to realize that no minds are going to be changed when it comes to religion... not unless somebody makes a personal discovery that lifts them. I often do go to religious discussion boards, though. I just love to piss off the jesus freaks. At least there they pretty much expect the give and take.

[catbbq]

I have it from a reptutable source that at least one of them does it on rides as well.

All i could say was, "were i there, we would have had us a real s.t.f.u.a.r. moment"


Gosh, Bill, I am sorry. I thought I was using my quiet voice for my endless political commentary during the ride. :)

[nhiker]

I enjoy debating. It's fun. But It can also get frustrating.

I know Cheeze has changed his mind about a few things. I dont' know if his mind changed here, or not.

For those of you who are debating and complaining about people debating and complaining, why are you on this thread debating and complaining?


One thing, really. George Bush's war in Iraq. My mind changed, not because of any arguments here, but because by about the third change of reason for the war, I was already disillusioned. So I guess you can say that George Bush changed my mind.

blah blah blah !

Hmmm sniff sniff sniff alright who cut the cheeze? ;D

Gosh, Bill, I am sorry. I thought I was using my quiet voice for my endless political commentary during the ride. :)


Yes i have excellent hearing. All that muttering , things like,

"Jesus, how did he get over that log"
and
"Someone should get rid of those Bush's in the trail"
and
"That stick is going to Gore someone"
and
"why cant i get mbike out of mIraq"

;D bill ;D

[T Grimble]

I find these topics interesting because they are a window into a different point of view. I don't think that any argument has changed my mind but it has opened my eyes to other side of the argument. I like to hear the opinions of my peers over the voice of the media. I am cinical about what motivates the media and never know when they are reporting public sentiment and when they are trying to shape it.

Why do people always say you should never discuss politics or religion? If you never discuss your beliefs with others then how do learn about their beliefs? Silence is ingnorance.

I do wish some people would hold back a little. A few people tend to take their arguments too far and end up either attacking somebody, repeating the same point 50 times or in some other way sounding stupid. They just end up sounding like a crackpot and nobody cares what the crackpot thinks.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I do wish some people would hold back a little. A few people tend to take their arguments too far and end up either attacking somebody, repeating the same point 50 times or in some other way sounding stupid. They just end up sounding like a crackpot and nobody cares what the crackpot thinks.


slider

[BG]

Crackpots? If it wasn't for crackpots where would we be. Gotta love the crackpot.

BG

[catbbq]

...They just end up sounding like a crackpot and nobody cares what the crackpot thinks.



Crackpots? If it wasn't for crackpots where would we be. Gotta love the crackpot.

BG


Be quiet Bob! Nobody cares what you think!

[BG]

...They just end up sounding like a crackpot and nobody cares what the crackpot thinks.



Crackpots? If it wasn't for crackpots where would we be. Gotta love the crackpot.

BG


Be quiet Bob! Nobody cares what you think!

[Slider]

I do wish some people would hold back a little. A few people tend to take their arguments too far and end up either attacking somebody, repeating the same point 50 times or in some other way sounding stupid. They just end up sounding like a crackpot and nobody cares what the crackpot thinks.


slider


pro·jec·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-jkshn)
n.
Psychology.
The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or suppositions to others: “Even trained anthropologists have been guilty of unconscious projection of clothing the subjects of their research in theories brought with them into the field” (Alex Shoumatoff).
The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.

[Quo Fan]

http://content.collegehumor.com/items/2002/07/collegehumor.3320.451xAUTO.jpg

[truckboy]

OK

So the same 4 guys appeared quickly to continue the same thing in this thread (only I can't figure who the #2 "conservative" is. Rych? kernel_crash? slappheadmofo? Sorry cheeze - you're #1 although I know you don't want to wear that hat. )

IMHO, although the spinning and bullying tactics do get tedious, I enjoy these threads. I don't think whether or not anybody's "changed their mind" is the true measure of these threads' value. Good points do get brought up on both sides.

Although I tend to side with Slider and TB in my anger towards Bush and the GOP, I have had to concede points to those more conservative voices, not that I'm a regular on these threads, but I do lurk. Even if nobody else will admit it, I will go out on a limb and say that, based on posts from people I disagree with politically, I have opened my mind to the POSSIBILITY that they could be right, moe importantly that I could be wrong. I guess that qualifies as changing my mind. I've even seen some agreement between opposing parties. I'd venture to say that the primary participants have been educated by their opposition, even if they are loathe to admit it.

Having said that, I don't think these conversations would last more that 5 minutes face to face. Partly the anonymity and partly the permanence of what's said keep them going. Plus, everyone gets a chance to speak. Most of us would walk away shaking our heads, or take a swing, if we were shouted down, insulted or otherwise treated in person as shittily as we treat eachother here. No judgement, just how I see it. I am as bad as any other.

blah blah blah

[catbbq]

Well, I am done. I tried reason. I am perfectly willing to change my mind when presented with facts (not opinions). Somethings are very objective, others are not.

So I picked an objective fact; the military lowering goals. Someone said "They lowered their goals so that they could say they exceeded them." I asked for proof, a simple publish report stating as much.

I was presented with http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8155830/. I read the report a couple times, thinking perhaps I had missed it. Yes, the report did say they lowered goals. I think everyone agrees with that. But what about the reason why?

I asked for a copy and paste of the section of the report that stated why. I didn't get it.

I did get another link that said the army met its goals but missed for the army reserve. No mention of lowering goals.

And I got yet another link to what appears to be a blog obvious pandering to the left that stated that Rush Limbaugh and foxnews lied about recruitment numbers.

But still no cut and paste of a quote or statement saying that the military lowered goals so they could claim exceeding them.

Finally, what appears to be a personal insult, at least that is how I interpret it.
"walk on home, boy."

I was perfectly willing to concede the point when presented with the evidence.

Instead, I just stop trying.

He did say something really funny in another post though. "If Bush were any dumber he'd need a feeding tube." That's classic.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Aw... did you lose your wittle binky? Here ya go, now.

[nhiker]

No I think that is my binky! >:( Thief!

[TrailBate]

I stated that Fox reported the military exceeded it's goals. I gave you a Fox article that said this, even after you said they did not say it. Point: me. I said the military lowered it's goals, you said this was not true. I gave you an article that proved this. Point:me.

What did you expect? An article from Fox that says "the military lowered it's goals so it could say it exceeded them."?

Use some common sense. Why would the military lower it's quotas? Got enough people? Hell no, they don't.

I proved you wrong, and myself correct. Don't take it personally.

[truckboy]

Come on guys. You are proving his point that nobody considers anybody else's opinions here.

Can't we all just get along!?

[slapheadmofo]

I think almost everyone can, with a couple notable exceptions.

[Slider]

I think almost everyone can, with a couple notable exceptions.


Those would be the people that disagree with you, right slappy?

Slider

[TrailBate]

I respect other people's opinions, but not when they make up their own facts.

In the instance above, someone said Fox never said something, I proved they did. Somehow this is not respecting someone else's opinion?

[slapheadmofo]

I think almost everyone can, with a couple notable exceptions.


Those would be the people that disagree with you, right slappy?

Slider


I have no problem with disagreements or reasonable debates. I have a problem with people who seem to argue a subject to death down every possible rathole just for the sake of arguing, who show a glaring lack of respect for others, who seem to think they are infallible and superior to those that don't fall into line with their opinions and who regularly dish out personal insults to anyone they don't agree with

Someone thinks the border crossing should be tightened up? You call them racists.
Someone votes republican? You call them to Nazis.

Actually now that I think about it, (even though Trailbait can get annoying with the constant beating on the same monotonous drum), it's really just you that stands out as a true dick. (I generally avoid personal jabs, but over time, I've decided to make a special exception in your case. Sweet huh?)

[Slider]

Interesting. That would make you one of the "notable exceptions."

Check the mirror, slappy.

Slider

[FriedRys]

Interesting. That would make you one of the "notable exceptions."

Check the mirror, slappy.

Slider
he said "speacial exceptions" if your gonna quote, do it acurately.

[slapheadmofo]

Sure. But like I said, I try to make it an exception. It's par for the course with you.

Not that I'd expect you to actually take any of this to heart and maybe look in that mirror yourself, cuz who's righter than Slider? No one he can think of.

::)

[Slider]

Accurate quote. You should re-read.

But I have more to say about slappy's attack. Show me where I ever called names or otherwise attacked someone, other than in response to a specific remark addressed at me. Even then I stick with the topic and do not get personal.

I've re-read my own posts, and slappy's, and the only attack I can find is his attempt to portray me as rude, when the only fact seems to be that I disagree with him. This somehow justifies, in his mind, a personal attack.

Don't get all pissy just because you are wrong, slappy.

Slider

[FriedRys]

Accurate quote. You should re-read.

But I have more to say about slappy's attack. Show me where I ever called names or otherwise attacked someone, other than in response to a specific remark addressed at me. Even then I stick with the topic and do not get personal.

I've re-read my own posts, and slappy's, and the only attack I can find is his attempt to portray me as rude, when the only fact seems to be that I disagree with him. This somehow justifies, in his mind, a personal attack.

Don't get all pissy just because you are wrong, slappy.

Slider
I stand corrected. heres your example:

So what threat is implied in wishing we had Oswald back? Isn't that more of a statement that Trailbait is NOT the one to do the job? And are you the pussy that is going to make more of this than the joke that it was? And are you defending the treasonous, fascist, whore-sellout that we have for a President?

Lastly, do you endorse a Nazi-like country where a joke gets felony status?

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

I sense another endless trip down a rathole coming on....

[catbbq]

That's enough.