Cindy Sheehan - Patriot or Pain in the Ass

[kernel crash]

I think at this point she's just out to put Bush between a rock and a hard place. She's asking questions that she already knows the answers to. I think Bush should have met with her, again, inside the ranch, without reporters present, let her have her say, and send her on her way. If she caused a rukus, have Laura slap her around. Where's Karl Rove when you need him.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Just another sensationalized liberal media creation. She made the radio talk show circuit last week. I heard two different interviews, in both of which she sounded pretty wacko. That's not to say she has a couple of ligitimate points, but her expectations are a tad unrealistic. And now her family is urging her to come home. Maybe she's waiting for Michael Moore to join her. Going to need a bigger tent, though.

[jerseygirl]

Let me know when one of you sacrifice a child for some moron's personal vendetta.

[catbbq]

She should pitch her tent outside the home of the insurgent who killed her boy. He re-enlisted, so he knew the risks and decided to take them.

The president is absolutely right not to talk to her again. If every persistent nut job got a meeting with the president, he wouldn't have time to raise taxes or invade countries (depending on who is in office.) America, after all, is a Republic, not a Democracy.

I would sacrifice Michael Moore... But there isn't enough body armor in the world to cover that ass.

[Slider]

Sounds like more Americans agree with Cindy sheehan than with the Treasonator. Maybe he ought to listen more.

All he has now is his base - the same suckers who bought his load of crap the first two times around. But he's lost all moderates, and those he scared into his war-monger ways.

Slider

Bush approval a low for recent 2-termers
By Will Lester, Associated Press Writer | August 15, 2005

WASHINGTON --President Bush's standing with an American public anxious about Iraq and the nation's direction is lower than that of the last two men who won re-election to the White House -- Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton -- at this point in their second terms.

But solid backing from his base supporters has kept Bush from sinking to the depths reached by former presidents Harry Truman, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter and Bush's father. Truman decided not to run for re-election. Nixon resigned. Carter and the first President Bush were defeated in re-election campaigns.

"This president should be glad he's not running for re-election," said Karlyn Bowman, a public opinion analyst from the American Enterprise Institute. "But the president is clearly holding his base. It's very important for him to keep the base support in terms of getting things done."

Indeed, Republicans in Congress already are starting to fret about the 2006 election. If Bush's approval ratings sink lower, more of them may be unwilling to go along with his major initiatives for fear it could cause backlash for them with voters.

Bush's job approval in recent polls ranges from the low- to mid-40s. It was 42 percent in the latest AP-Ipsos poll. His ratings on everything from handling Iraq to the economy to Social Security and other domestic issues are at their lowest levels so far.

Reagan was at 57 percent at this stage of his presidency and Clinton was at 61 percent, according to Gallup polling at the time.

The partisan divide for Bush is stark -- 80 percent of Democrats disapprove of his overall performance while nearly 90 percent of Republicans approve.

Charles Black, a veteran GOP strategist and close Bush ally, said Republicans are sticking with Bush for two reasons: personal affection and loyalty.

"I haven't seen anything like it since Reagan," he said. "Bush follows through on issues that are largely popular with the base, even when it's not popular with the general public to do so."

Bush may have a hard time pushing up his numbers because issues like the violence in Iraq and gas prices are largely out of his control.

But Bush's efforts to put conservatives on the Supreme Court and overhaul the federal tax code are likely to please his conservative base.

Other presidents have seen their political bases dissolve, in Gallup poll figures:

--Truman's approval dipped to 24 percent in the late spring of 1951 after he removed popular Gen. Douglas MacArthur from command in Korea.

--Nixon's approval dropped to 31 percent in August 1973 as the war dragged on in Vietnam and revelations of administration misdeeds kept spilling out of the Senate Watergate hearings.

--Carter's approval plunged to 29 percent in the early summer of 1979 amid economic troubles and news of increasing problems with new Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini.

--The first Bush's approval sank to 32 percent in July 1992 as his presidential rivals Clinton and Ross Perot gained momentum in the campaign and the jobless rate rose.

For the current president to fall to those levels, Republicans and Republican-leaning independents would have to abandon him in large numbers. So far there's no indication that is happening, though there are some rumblings of discontent.

"I voted for Bush," said Jerry Fleming a GOP-leaning independent from Athens, Ala. "I feel like he's pretty much a straight-shooter as far as his religious background. I respect that part of him.

"But if the situation in Iraq keeps dragging out for a long period of time with no hope for peace, I would eventually get fed up with it," Fleming said.

For Trisha McAllister, a Republican from Grenada, Miss., Bush's willingness to ignore public opinion wins her over.

"I may not approve of every single thing he does," McAllister said, "but he's a true leader because he's not leading by the polls."

Presidential scholar Charles Jones cautioned against reading too much into low poll ratings for a president at a given point of his term.

"Truman got some of the lowest poll numbers any president ever got," said Jones, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. "Now when we look back on Truman, he's the highest ranked of the post-World War II presidents."

[kernel crash]

"Let me know when one of you sacrifice a child for some moron's personal vendetta."

My point is that there is nothing Bush can say to her that will bring her son back or make her feel much better about her situation. I think she knows that. The rest of it is a political side show to try to stick it to the president. But he could have handled this better, but true to form...

[TrailBate]

She's being both. Yes, she lost her son cuz some jackass sent him off to die for no reason. But what does she expect from Bush? What can Bush do to satisfy her (hee hee) and make her go home?

Someone said it was her own son's fault for re-enlisting. That's BS. The least we can do for our brave military is to not send them off to die unless there is NO ALTERNATIVE.

I hear she is having some kind of group prayer in the next few days when Bush has nothing scheduled. The least he could do is show up for that, since he claims to be a christian.

Last I heard, since Bush started his 5 week vacation, 50 americans have been killed in Iraq.


oh, Rush Limbaugh today called all the mothers outside the ranch "maggot infested", among other things. Typical right wing response.

[MTBME]

"Rush Limbaugh today called all the mothers outside the ranch "maggot infested",

That seems kind of harsh even for Limbaugh. But then were not all on loan from Gawd!

Where's Rove been lately? What happened to that big investigation? Must be hiding low. Meanwhile Bush is waiting for someone to tell him how to handle Cindy. Karl, you out there?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Let me know when one of you sacrifice a child for some moron's personal vendetta.


Nobody is unsympathetic to her for her great loss and her son's sacrifice (not hers). That being said, this smells entirely of a manufactured media circus, stripping away most of the sincerity behind her supposed cause. Everybody knows that El Presidento will not, was never going to, and never will meet with her in such an environment; and any outrage at his failure to do so is mock in and of itself. She could have easily tried to achieve her goal, which would still likely fail, under the radar of television cameras and print media watchdogs.

Now if you want to call it what it is, an attempt to smear (and rightly I might add) Bush for this outrageous Iraqi war, then I'm buying. I feel bad for the woman, but lets dispense with the dog and pony show.

[GeepNutt]

I'm surprised that CBS hasn't pulled Rather out of mothballs and sent him down there with a tent and a sleeping bag yet! ;D

[kernel crash]

Originally I thought Bush should meet with her, again, now I feel he should just blow her off. This has become a personel vendetta with her to get Bush. Plain and simple.

http://drudgereport.com/flash3.htm

[TrailBate]

I don't think she has any illusions that Bush will meet with her. She is protesting, that is all.

[TrailBate]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Marines-Family-Speaks.html

[kernel crash]

''Palmer said. ''They're not doing the job right now. It's not the fault of the troops. It's the fault of the plan.''

There's some truth to that. I don't know why Bush insists there are enough troops on the ground when the evidence speaks otherwise. It must provide a bit of "morale support" if you will to the enemy.

Look at it from the insurgents / terrorists / scumbag point of view. You've taken a beating but your not beat. You've infiltrated the Iraqi army and police which will pay dividends down the road. You know every American you kill will be the leading story on the local news back home. You see this woman, Cindy Sheehan, putting pressure on the president, back home, as the news media runs with the story every night. If your with the insurgents in Iraq, you may be starting to feel pretty good about your long term goals. Meanwhile Bush seems to be spinning his wheels, no pun intended, while events in Iraq may be spinning out of his control.

[Skeg]

My vote is for: Pain in the ass.

I sympathise for her loss, but feel her son would be embarassed by what she is doing.

Not as lengthy as other responses but I'm not wordy, just honest.

[slapheadmofo]

She's silly.
Silly I tell you.

[TrailBate]

What is silly is how far the right wingers are going to make her look bad. They lie about things she says, they run over her memorials (and get arrested), then Bush goes on a National tour to argue against her. Pretty funny.

If you actually listen to Cindy, she is very calm and level headed, never stooping to name calling or yelling. But the right wingers start screaming and going nuts about her.

[kernel crash]

Cmon. She's only calm when the camera's are rolling. She's been heavily quoted before she went to Crawford where she did plenty of ranting and raving throwing the F bomb around plenty. You can be sure that she's being well coached right now by the left on how to appear a little more sympathetic as opposed to pathetic. Where's Kerry, Clinton and the rest? They won't get near her. She's like the third rail on the MBTA. Touch it and your done.

[slapheadmofo]

Heard her yesterday going on about how Bush wants more of our soldiers to die. Uhhh...okay...I'm sure he'd hate it if we could get the job done without any of our guys dying over there. ::)

Silly.

[BrianK]

She's both a patriot and a pain in the ass. Patriot because she's sticking up for one point of view, sticking up for our troops and excercising her right to protest against Bush, but pain in the ass because she's not 100% rational and part of her goal is just to bring grief to Bush.

But then, she's paid with her Son's life and its a free country, so she can be a pain in the ass just as much as Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore are if she wants to.

[Slider]

Exactly.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"She's both a patriot and a pain in the ass."

I actually agree with you for the same reasons you stated. And remember, her son re enlisted while the was was already in place. So it's not like he didn't know what he was getting into.

[TrailBate]

Cmon. She's only calm when the camera's are rolling. She's been heavily quoted before she went to Crawford where she did plenty of ranting and raving throwing the F bomb around plenty. You can be sure that she's being well coached right now by the left on how to appear a little more sympathetic as opposed to pathetic. Where's Kerry, Clinton and the rest? They won't get near her. She's like the third rail on the MBTA. Touch it and your done.



hmmm, they won't go near her, yet she's being well coached? Okay.

Do you have some links of these F-bomb rants?

[kernel crash]

" Do you have some links of these F-bomb rants?"

I saw them over a week ago and assumed it was accepted knowledge so I didn't bookmark them or anything. In one rant she was saying how she was afraid if she up close to the president, she didn't know if she would be able to control herself. She was practically threathening violence to the whole white house crowd. I'll look around for it.

http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/08/17/cindy-sheehan-grieving-mother-looney-woman-crackpot-now-potty-mouth/

[TrailBate]

It's just that I've heard the Right put so many words into her mouth that turned out to be lies.

The last one that comes to mind is when the Right claimed Sheehan said that the US was not worth dying for. What she said was that Iraq was not worth Americans dying for.

Interesting link, btw. It quotes Sheehan as calling the Bush daughters "party girls", then the blogger (after calling Cindy a crackpot and a whore) says Cindy is "degrading" the Bush daughters.... ::)

[kernel crash]

More from Cindy

An exchange on MSNBC’s Hardball, from the end of the two segments with Sheehan:

Sheehan: “And when I came down here and said I was staying until I meet with him or until August 31, I met him, I wholly disagree with him. We’re not going to cure terrorism and spread peace and good will in the Middle East by killing innocent people or, I’m not even saying our bullets and bombs are killing them. The occupation that they don’t have food. They don’t have clean water. They don’t have electricity. They don’t have medicine. They don’t have doctors. We need to get our military presence out of there and that’s what will start building good will. Because we know they’re building bases the size of Sacramento, California in Iraq. They plan on never leaving. And I see in the future, they’re starting to beat the drums against Iran. And I see Iraq as the base for spreading imperialism. And if we don’t stop them now, our babies and our unborn grandchildren will be fighting this.”

Matthews: “Are you considering running for Congress, Cindy?”

Sheehan: “No, not this time. I’m a one issue person. I know a lot about what’s going on in Iraq but I don’t know anything about anything else. And I want to focus my energy on bringing the troops home.”

From the blogger:

This claim is completely bogus, as anyone who has been to Iraq will tell you. There are problems with electricity, but that’s to be expected after the infrastructure was allowed to go to hell by Saddam in order to use the money to build lavish palaces he could stay in. There are more telephones in Iraq than ever before, more have internet access, more newspapers than ever before, more press in radio and TV, etc. The people have food, and her claim that they have no doctors is also a lie. She claims the U.S. is imperalistic, yet the goal is to GET OUT of Iraq. She shows her ignorance in matters of the military and general security- she demands the US pull out all troops now, yet at the same time she claims to care for the Iraqi people and their well being. Funny, considering the Iraqi people don’t want the troops to be pulled out- who on earth would protect them from outside invasion or civil war?! The freely elected government in Iraq wants US troops in as well, because security would go to hell without the presence of US troops as well as the troops from the UK and other nations.

http://thebluesite.com/?p=408

[kernel crash]

Now Cindy has a problem with the Blue Angels ???

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1462790/posts

[GeepNutt]

Her 15 minutes:

Over!

[TrailBate]

There are problems with electricity, but that’s to be expected after the infrastructure was allowed to go to hell by Saddam in order to use the money to build lavish palaces he could stay in. There are more telephones in Iraq than ever before, more have internet access, more newspapers than ever before, more press in radio and TV, etc. The people have food, and her claim that they have no doctors is also a lie. She claims the U.S. is imperalistic, yet the goal is to GET OUT of Iraq. She shows her ignorance in matters of the military and general security- she demands the US pull out all troops now, yet at the same time she claims to care for the Iraqi people and their well being. Funny, considering the Iraqi people don’t want the troops to be pulled out-


Strange, all the blogs from actual IRAQI's say the opposite....don't they watch FOX?

[kernel crash]

Here's a twist of irony for you.

Cindy Sheehan came along during a slow news period in August and drove Karl Rove off the front burner. What happened there?

Now Katrina comes along and shoves Cindy off the front burner for what could be a long time. Bush is back in the White House and Cindy's problems look "small" compared to the devestation down South.

Bush has a chance to look presidential and raise his poll numbers a bit as the mass media scales back from the Iraq problem to focus on something closer to home. This story isn't going away soon.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Did anybody realize that "Cindy Sheehan" is an anagram for "Cheney is hand"? What do you think that means??

Something smells.

[Slider]

Also works out to:

In Cheesy hand

Damn! You holding out on us?

Slider

[BG]

"Something smells."

What ever happened to SMELL-O-VISION?

BG

[TrailBate]

Bush has a chance to look presidential and raise his poll numbers a bit as the mass media scales back from the Iraq problem to focus on something closer to home. This story isn't going away soon.


Bush look presidential? Hee hee! Good one!

With the price of gas going through the roof, I don't think his ratings are going up much. Especially when word gets out that Bush cut the Corps of Engineers funding in 2003 for the project to strengthen the levy system. A project Clinton put into place.

74 Americans died in Iraq while bush was on vacation. The longest presidential vacation in 36 years.

[kernel crash]

"Bush cut the Corps of Engineers funding in 2003 for the project to strengthen the levy system. A project Clinton put into place. "

Really. It always comes back to Bush with you doesn't it. We'll see how this plays out. Sounds like a talking point from move on dot org. And as far as vacations, that's really a misnomer isn't it. No president is ever really on vacation in the true sense of the word.

[mtbtom]

Bush is back in the White House and Cindy's problems look "small" compared to the devestation down South.
Bush has a chance to look presidential and raise his poll numbers a bit as the mass media scales back from the Iraq problem to focus on something closer to home. This story isn't going away soon.


Using a national disaster to take attention away from the bull **** war in Iraq and other scandals. That's what I calll "LEADERSHIP".

[Skeg]

another anagram " A SYNIC HED HEN" ;D

[kernel crash]

"Using a national disaster to take attention away ..."

That's not really my point. I mean it's not like Bush caused this disaster. (Settle down Trail Bait). My point is this will dominate everything for a long long time. All those other issues will go to the back burner starting with the major news networks.

[TrailBate]

"Using a national disaster to take attention away ..."

That's not really my point. I mean it's not like Bush caused this disaster. (Settle down Trail Bait). My point is this will dominate everything for a long long time. All those other issues will go to the back burner starting with the major news networks.


The price of gas will hit the front burner soon. Followed by the price of heating oil/gas. Bush is in trouble. What kind of leadership is this bonehead giving this country? He has done nothing positive.

[slapheadmofo]

She blamed Bush for the hurricane yesterday.
What a loony.

(Waiting for our resident loonys to chime in and try to support that claim)

[FriedRys]

She blamed Bush for the hurricane yesterday.
What a loony.

(Waiting for our resident loonys to chime in and try to support that claim)
BAHAHAHAHAA, with his giant weather control machine?COOKOO

[Slider]

She blamed Bush for the hurricane yesterday.
What a loony.

(Waiting for our resident loonys to chime in and try to support that claim)


Loonies are the kind of folks who toss up unsubstantiated claims, and surely you are not one of them. You would have to include a source for anyone to form an opinion either way, but someone so sane and rational as you would realize that.

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

Investigate it for yourself you pompous ass; it's not that hard to find.

[Slider]

:o

Oooh. I must have offended you somehow. Maybe if I type slowly you will understand.

C-r-a-p p-o-s-t-e-d w-i-t-h-o-u-t s-u-b-s-t-a-n-t-i-a-t-i-o-n i-s s-i-m-p-l-y c-r-a-p.

And loonies go off, usually starting by calling names. You definitely resemble that remark.

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

Need some help slippy? Here you go; spin away:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cindy-sheehan/my-last-post-from-crawfor_b_6523.html


pompous
Characterized by excessive self-esteem or exaggerated dignity; pretentious:
Full of high-sounding phrases; bombastic:

ass
A vain, self-important, silly, or aggressively stupid person.

[Slider]

Well, using your definition, I don't qualify. Sarcastic? Sure, purposely.

So here's the quote from Cindy's site:

" George is finished playing golf and telling his fables in San Diego, so he will be heading to Louisiana to see the devastation that his environmental policies and his killing policies have caused. Recovery would be easier and much quicker if almost ½ of the three states involved National Guard were not in Iraq. All of the National Guard's equipment is in Iraq, also. Plus, with the 2 billion dollars a week that the private contractors are siphoning from our treasury, how are we going to pay for helping our own citizens in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama? And, should I dare say "global warming?" and be branded as a "conspiracy theorist" on top of everything else the right-wingers say about me."

Your quote: "She blamed Bush for the hurricane yesterday."

You really think that is an accurate distillation of what she said?

After your post, FriedRys chimes in with: "BAHAHAHAHAA, with his giant weather control machine?COOKOO "

The exchange couldn't underscore any more clearly the reason substantiation and accurate quotes are important.

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

Trust me, you qualify.

"he will be heading to Louisiana to see the devastation that his environmental policies and his killing policies have caused."

+ a bonus 'global warming' mention for good measure.


Keep spinning

[Mr_Cheeze]

I wonder if, were John Kerry the President, Hatrina would have happened. Hmmm. I'm guessing that "Cheney Is Hand" would probably believe as much.

The woman is a wacko. Dead son or not, she is a fool.

[Slider]

I am not spinning anything. I don't care what Cindy Sheehan has to say, and never saw her site before you sent me there. I DO care about mischaracterizations, since they mislead people, and that leads to bad voting. I can cite specifics on that if you want.

But, to the point at hand, she never said he caused the hurricane, but she did say he caused the devastation. There's a big difference. She overstated things, but the distinction is there. And proper citations would help others see it.

Slider

[kernel crash]

But clearly her INTENT was to put the blame on Bush.

[BG]

Bad voting...Why didn't they tell us about that in school?

BG

[Slider]

But clearly her INTENT was to put the blame on Bush.


Blame for what? Our decreased ability to respond to the devastation? Yes, that seems to be her point.

My point, on the other hand, was that proper citation and quotation would help us all make our own determination on that.

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

But clearly her INTENT was to put the blame on Bush.


Blame for what? Our decreased ability to respond to the devastation? Yes, that seems to be her point.

My point, on the other hand, was that proper citation and quotation would help us all make our own determination on that.

Slider


Spinboy - she said his environmental policies caused the devastation (by singlehandedly causing global warming I guess). Then she went on to a totally different subject, the relief effort. Nice try though.

[TrailBate]

If Bush really did cut funding to the levee system, and if most of the Guard's equipment is in Iraq, and if so many places STILL have not gotten any help, yes, you can blame Bush for the Hurricane's destruction.

[Slider]

Spinboy - she said his environmental policies caused the devastation (by singlehandedly causing global warming I guess). Then she went on to a totally different subject, the relief effort. Nice try though.


Well, no, she said: "his environmental policies and his killing policies "

Read a little closer. Maybe things won't seem to spin so much.

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[Mr_Cheeze]

It is pretty unfair to blame Bush for the devastation from Katrina. Extra guard troops or not, there is a reason why this storm is considered to be the greatest natural disaster in United States recorded history. Extra Guardsmen wouldn't have mattered. The people who decided to stay are responsible for their own consequences. The levy system was the responsibility of the officialas of the city, not George Bush. For cripes sake. The devastation has zero to do with any George Bush policy. Zip. None. Sheehan and the usual lefties are just pig-piling.

Now if you want to talk about his lame-o speech and pathetic Air Force One fly over yesterday, and his virtual stand still over the oil crisis, fine. But you guys are reaching by blaming Bush for anything in New Orleans. This **** happened. Now it's time to deal with it. Give them a chance at least, to do what they must.

[slapheadmofo]

Spinboy - she said his environmental policies caused the devastation (by singlehandedly causing global warming I guess). Then she went on to a totally different subject, the relief effort. Nice try though.


Well, no, she said: "his environmental policies and his killing policies "

Read a little closer. Maybe things won't seem to spin so much.

Slider


I obviously read more closely than you did - I didn't skip over the part about environmental policies. Go back and take another look - you'll see it there if you really try. Then maybe you can give us a long-winded 'explanation' of how it's true. Or keep pretending it's not in there.

Anyway, real simple for you since you can't seem to connect the dots yourself - she's trying to insinuate that Bush's environmental policies contribute to global warming, which she believes was factor in causing this storm. Duh.

[slapheadmofo]

If Bush really did cut funding to the levee system, and if most of the Guard's equipment is in Iraq, and if so many places STILL have not gotten any help, yes, you can blame Bush for the Hurricane's destruction.


That's one part of what she's saying, and I'm not arguing those points (not agreeing either). The environmental/global warming stuff is nothing but crazy talk though.

[mtbtom]

Maybe if your kid was killed in this misguided bull **** war you'd go "COOKOO" too. (not insinuating that she is or isn't crazy or distrubed)

Regardless, this is all besides the point. I'd expect a little more empathy for a person in her shoes from everyone, and especially from Bush, the guy who's responsible for it all.

He's too busy mountain biking to meet with her I guess.

[Slider]

Anyway, real simple for you since you can't seem to connect the dots yourself - she's trying to insinuate that Bush's environmental policies contribute to global warming, which she believes was factor in causing this storm. Duh.


Bush's environmental policies absolutely DO contribute to global warming, so that part is right on. As for the storm, global warming = higher sea levels = more flooding.

So what's the problem?

Slider

[TrailBate]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Bush caused this hurricane, but he certainly refuses to accept that his actions are contributing to this trend.

The response to this disaster by the US government is f'ing pathetic. This is not a third world country. If 500 annoying reporters can get their asses down there, so can't he. A flyover in his 747 is ********.

[FriedRys]

Bushs enviromental policies have roughly 0 impact on our current weather patterns.

http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba230.html

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/ResourceCenterPublicationsSeaLevelRiseIndex.html#n ow\

[slapheadmofo]

2ble post :-[

[slapheadmofo]

Anyway, real simple for you since you can't seem to connect the dots yourself - she's trying to insinuate that Bush's environmental policies contribute to global warming, which she believes was factor in causing this storm. Duh.


Bush's environmental policies absolutely DO contribute to global warming, so that part is right on. As for the storm, global warming = higher sea levels = more flooding.



Congratulations - I knew you'd get it after awhile (and predictably agree).

As for what the problem is, hmmm, maybe that anyone can possibly be so myopic and naive that they could believe that what's happened over just the past 5 years really made a measurable difference in how much water is in New Orleans right now, and even if it did, that the blame can be layed squarely on one mans shoulders.
Ridiculous.

[Slider]

I already said that Bush did not cause the storm. Believe me, he's far close to the Devil than to God.

What I did say is that his policies are counter productive to our ability to respond, and to our ability to lessen the impact of future storms like it. He's an inept manager, no matter what the issue.

Cindy Sheehan, pretty clumsily, was trying to say the same thing. She is not a whacko, or a political plant. She is simply a grieving mother who understands that the Treasonator has created a scenario that got her son killed. He did this by lying, after selling out to industry, and compounded the resulting problems by sending inadequatey prepared and equipped troops to a meaningless war. The money spent on that war is money we do not have to use in the Gulf states, where we need it most.

If she becomes the lightning rod that rouses resistance to this evil war, more power to her. If she helps the gullible Bush backers to see their grave mistake, even better.

Slider

[TrailBate]

CNN ran the report tonight about Bush cutting funding to the project that would have strengthened the levee system.

There are still bodies in the streets, and people who have not had food, water, or any kind of law enforcement since last weekend.

There is NO reason why we can't be dropping food and water in this city. NONE.

It just goes to show that when a republican is president, you are better off being a comatose white girl, than to be a poor black man.

[FriedRys]

It just goes to show that when a republican is president, you are better off being a comatose white girl, than to be a poor black man.
you realise Lincoln was a republican?

[TrailBate]

It just goes to show that when a republican is president, you are better off being a comatose white girl, than to be a poor black man.
you realise Lincoln was a republican?


The Civil War was not about slavery. That was made up after the war started, much like "spreading democracy" in Iraq. The Civil War was over taxes, tarriffs, and other policies that favored the industrial North over the agricultural South.

[Mr_Cheeze]

you realise Lincoln was a republican?


Yea, except that Republican party was a far cry from today's, so you cannot make that comparison. Lincoln was a big federalist.

Ironically, the two parties that we know today are virtually opposites of what they were 150 years ago. Interesting how they have evolved into their nemeses.

[truckboy]

You know, I started to write that Democrat or Republican doesn't matter much anymore, but as disenchanted with the Dems as I am, I can't say that. I really think Gore would not have taken us to war anywhere. I think he would have done something to neutralize Bin Laden (what...?), but I think there would have been more resources here at home to respond to the natural disaster, that is if he were elected to a 2nd term.

I hope this debacle, the high gas prices, Rove's Treason (where's that been lately?) and anger about the war (too little, too late IMO) will keep the next Ohio or Florida from electing the next GOP puppet. But the Democrats have to put up a real candidate. Hilary is not viable. I'm sorry, she's not. I still like Ralph Nader. The problem with candidates like him is that they take votes away from the Dems but not enough from the evil empire.

I am tired of choosing between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.

[Jisch]

I rarely even read the political stuff on this board, why o why am I posting in one? I don't know....

Like Truckboy I am sick of choosing the "evil of two lessors" at the voting machine. I've been voting since I was able and have yet to vote "for" someone in a presidential election (I am always voting "against" someone).

I read this in the paper this morning, utter BS in my opinion, but I thought you guys would enjoy arguing it's merits...

"The toughest commentary of the day comes from Germany's Environmental Minister, Jürgen Trittin, a Green Party member, who takes space in the Frankfurter Rundschau, a paper friendly with the Social Democrats, to bash US President George W. Bush's environmental laxity. He begins by likening the photos and videos of the hurricane stricken areas to scenes from a Roland Emmerich sci-fi film and insists that global warming and climate change are making it ever more likely that storms and floods will plague America and Europe. "

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372179,00.html

[slapheadmofo]

I am tired of choosing between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.


You can always vote third party (the Fruitcake option). ;)

[catbbq]

I am tired of choosing between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.


You can always vote third party (the Fruitcake option). ;)


mmm.... turd sandwich....

I always pick the fruitcake option. Just me not being fatalistic I guess.

[slapheadmofo]

I am tired of choosing between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.


You can always vote third party (the Fruitcake option). ;)


mmm.... turd sandwich....

I always pick the fruitcake option. Just me not being fatalistic I guess.


I do the same (even though I am fatalistic. )

[truckboy]

I got those terms from South Park Wednesday night. I don't get to watch that show enough. There were some great moments, including a debate between the candidates and a "vote or die, bitch" rap video by P. Diddy.

[kernel crash]

"CINDY SHEEHAN CALLS FOR U.S TO 'PULL OUR TROOPS OUT OF OCCUPIED NEW ORLEANS'"


http://drudgereport.com/flash.htm

[TrailBate]

There have been many complaints over the amount and hostility of the forces that have been put in place. Including some mercenary groups.
Brian Williams complained on the Daily Show last week that he thought he might get shot at. He said it was quite obvious that he and the people in his truck were journalists, but he had rifles pointed at him anyway.

[TrailBate]

Cindy arrested for "failing to move along, now."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/26/wardemonstrations.ap/index.html

As she was being taken away, she was heard yelling, "help, help, I'm being repressed!"

George Bush reacted with, "Bloody peasant. I ordered her to shut up."

[kernel crash]

Come on. Is she starting to look real pathetic these days of what? Somebody should remind Cindy that her son volunteered not once but twice. After listening to her shrill voice, I can see why he was looking to get far far away. I think she has another agenda at this point. Run for office? Some twisted need to keep herself in the spotlight? Pathetic.

[TrailBate]

What's pathetic is that, in return for a soldier's death "defending his country", his mom gets arrested for sitting on the sidewalk in America.

[Rych]

They had permission to walk by the white house, but heat was not good enough. She was going to get arrested today no matter what. If she was allowed to sit on the sidewalk she would have stood up and dropped a **** right there. What would we say then, "A mother gives her son and she can't take a **** where she wants."

[TrailBate]

She sat on a sidewalk. That's it. And you're saying "oh well, she'd do ANYTHING to get arrested!". Yeah. she sat down. whoopee. What a TERRORIST.

[slapheadmofo]

What's pathetic is that, in return for a soldier's death "defending his country", his mom gets arrested for sitting on the sidewalk in America.


My dad (and a few uncles) defended this country - does that mean I, or he for that matter, don't have to play by the same rules as everyone else?

Waaaaaah...those guys risk their lives in Nam and Korea and what do I get in return, a traffic ticket speeding in a school zone. What kind of screwed up country is this anyway? I'm outraged I tell you!...waaaaaaaaah!! ::)

[TrailBate]

Typical. She sits down on a sidewalk, and suddenly she's speeding through a school zone and taking a dump in the street?

[catbbq]

I don't agree that the law is good, but she was protesting without a permit. She broke the law. Haul her crazy ass off I say.

[TrailBate]

ah, yes. Freedom*





*see applicable rules and restrictions

[kernel crash]

OK all bluster aside, when you read the article, it is clear that the group she was protesting with, had all intentions of getting arested today. So one way or another she was going to the slammer. I personally think she is mis-reading the public on this one. I think it is a very small majority that wants to cut and run as she does. I think there is a much larger group that wants us to start putting together a plan, right now, that will create a time table to get out. She will ultimitely hurt her own cause because she will be seen as too extreme or just a wacko. And you can quote me on that.

[slapheadmofo]

Typical. She sits down on a sidewalk, and suddenly she's speeding through a school zone and taking a dump in the street?


Not her, me. If she should be allowed to break a law of her choice, the rest of us with relatives that signed up for service should be able to break the law of our choice.

[Rych]

Typical. She sits down on a sidewalk, and suddenly she's speeding through a school zone and taking a dump in the street?


Not her, me. If she should be allowed to break a law of her choice, the rest of us with relatives that signed up for service should be able to break the law of our choice.

Oh Democrats don't break real laws. So to keep a list of laws that we are allowed to break:

Disturbing the peace
Perjury

[slapheadmofo]

Hmmm...well, I'd be willing to trade in my right to reckless driving for disturbing the peace with impunity. I could probably have just as much fun with that one! ;D

[Slider]

Civil disobedience has a long tradition, back to Plato, through Thoreau, and up to Daniel Ellsberg. Without it, we'd still be in 'Nam. I'm glad Cindy Sheehan is out there, so I don't have to be.

BTW - did you notice the counter demonstration? It got maybe a couple of hundred participants. Cindy and her supporters got more than 100K.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"BTW - did you notice the counter demonstration? It got maybe a couple of hundred participants. Cindy and her supporters got more than 100K."

Well Yeah. How many of those people have real jobs to go to? I don't think Joan Biaz (sic) had to give up too many gigs to free up her schedule.

[Slider]

Interesting. You're saying the unemployed are the most antiwar demographic? Sounds reasonable. They're the most likely candidates to enlist, since it offers the best option out of poverty, especially with the way the Republicans are skewing the tax burden.

Might as well have the lower classes dying. You sure aren't going to see the Bush twins in Iraq. Now that is a true War on Poverty.

Slider

[kernel crash]

No. Actually what I'm saying is that the anti-establishment, anti-Bush, anti-Republican crowd is way more organized than the average joe six pack who supports the president on Iraq.

[catbbq]

People usually don't get that organized to keep the status quo.

[Slider]

Paraphrasing the late Maxwell Smart:

Ah, the old Silent Majority trick. (You gotta imagine the proper twang...) Guess you guys don't read the polls much. Here are some excerpts from the most recent AP and CNN polls:

65% said we'er speding too much there.
67% disapprove of Bush's handling of the war
59% said going there was a mistake
75% said he has no exit strategy
66% said we should withdraw some or all troops
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

So which average Joe were you talking about, exactly?

Slider

[Rych]

Paraphrasing the late Maxwell Smart:

Ah, the old Silent Majority trick. (You gotta imagine the proper twang...) Guess you guys don't read the polls much. Here are some excerpts from the most recent AP and CNN polls:

65% said we'er speding too much there.
67% disapprove of Bush's handling of the war
59% said going there was a mistake
75% said he has no exit strategy
66% said we should withdraw some or all troops
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm




So which average Joe were you talking about, exactly?

Slider


After every poll that Kevin threw out last fall that showed Kerry was going to be the next president, why should we believe any poll, especially one from the Clinton News Network. Would you believe a poll that I post from Fox news?

OT..Does anyone else think ABC's new show "Commander in Chief" is just an attempt to warm the American public up to Hillary as President?

[TrailBate]

After every poll that Kevin threw out last fall that showed Kerry was going to be the next president, why should we believe any poll, especially one from the Clinton News Network. Would you believe a poll that I post from Fox news?

OT..Does anyone else think ABC's new show "Commander in Chief" is just an attempt to warm the American public up to Hillary as President?



I knew this "exit polling" excuse would pop up. Limbaugh used it, too. Just before reporting the poll results HE liked, and claimed were accurate.


I think "commander in chief" is just another stupid chick-flick tv show. imo.

[Rych]

The funny thing is I agree with this moonbat that we should get out of Iraq. When Bush was campaigning in 1999 he said he was going to us out of the nation building business. Can we close this business now?

[TrailBate]

Bush also criticized Clinton for not having an exit timetable for Kosovo.

[Slider]

Exit polls have lots of problems that properly conducted surveys don't share. If you want to present the thoughts of an "average Joe", a poll is all you have.

Besides, even the exit polls showed things to be close. These AP/CNN polls show a far broader disapproval margin, and the trend over time is really obvious. In comparison, exit polls can't show changes over time since they are only taken on one specific date.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"OT..Does anyone else think ABC's new show "Commander in Chief" is just an attempt to warm the American public up to Hillary as President?"

Ya that's what I thought right away. They just want to be ahead of the curve on this one. There probably slipping in Vote Hillary subliminal messages in between shots of Gina Davis hanging up her panty hose in the white house bathroom.

[kernel crash]

excerpts from the most recent AP and CNN polls:

65% said we'er speding too much there.
I'm surprised its not higher.

67% disapprove of Bush's handling of the war
Not surprising. When the nightly images of Iraq focus on all the negative stuff, its not surprising that people want a quick fix NOW! It's the American way. After all don't the nightly TV show wrap up things nice and neatly in a one hour time frame?

59% said going there was a mistake
Well that sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking doesn't it? What was the percentage after the first month?

75% said he has no exit strategy
Actually Bush has said many time that as soon as the Iraquis can stand on their own...

66% said we should withdraw some or all troops
Some or all is the key phrase here. I wonder what the results would have been if the question asked "withdraw all" right now?

You know if I learned anything in this life is nothing is as simple as it seems. You can be sure that the insurgents are also paying attention to these polls, and Cindy. It would be counter productive to their cause if they struck at the American heartland again right now. That would swing those poll numbers overnight in the other direction. Yup. All they need to do is sit back and wait...

[truckboy]

I'm sorry but that just sounds asinine. Maybe they want to be ahead of the curve or create another "West Wing", but ABC can't afford to play political lackey for the Democrats. They are in the entertainment biz, not politics. It's not a good comparison to Fox News Channel. If the show is middling to good it will stay. If it sux it will go. She was on Monday Night Football last night pushing her show. Doesn't seem like a very "Hillary for President" crowd to me.

Hillary Clinton will not be the next President. Nor will Barack Obama. America isn't ready. If the Democratic party nominates either, they have officially lost me. It will be the biggest chunk of proof to date of how out of touch they are.

[TrailBate]

What has Barack done to earn your ire, Truckboy?


As far as the exit polls go, you gotta take into account all the people who were too embarrassed to admit they were voting for Bush.


But then, Republicans claim they don't pay attention to polls. God forbid an elected official should care what his employers think.

[catbbq]

I agree with Truckboy. America is not ready for its first lesbian president.

[slapheadmofo]

I agree with Truckboy. America is not ready for its first lesbian president.


;D heheheheh

[kernel crash]

Did anybody see the video last night of Cindy being arrested? She has a big sh!t eating grin from ear to ear as she was being picked up off the ground. I don't care where you stand on this issue politically but that image seemed a bit inappropriate for a woman that suppose to be doing this for her son. I think she way past that at this point and now it all about her. I think she a fraud.

[truckboy]

What has Barack done to earn your ire, Truckboy?


Nothing. He's just not going to get elected President. Hillary hasn't done anything to earn my ire either. It's the slim majority of voters who put Bush in office twice, and the disorganised, lackluster Democratic Party that make me angry. Call me a racist and a sexist, but I don't have faith that the Democratic party is going to win centrist votes with a female or black candidate, even one who makes a lot of sense to me. The 2004 election really made me cynical. More than I was before. I don't have much hope for the Democatic party these days. Its ideals are too progressive right now. It seems too many voters are in the dark ages in terms of morality, and "Liberal" has become a dirty word.

Hopefully I'm wrong and there will be a pendulum swing to the left as was mentioned around here somewhere recently. Until then, the best we can hope for is a fiscal conservative with no religious agenda.

[TrailBate]

Did anybody see the video last night of Cindy being arrested? She has a big sh!t eating grin from ear to ear as she was being picked up off the ground. I don't care where you stand on this issue politically but that image seemed a bit inappropriate for a woman that suppose to be doing this for her son. I think she way past that at this point and now it all about her. I think she a fraud.


I'm sure you know exactly what IS appropriate for a woman who lost her son in an illegal war? It's about as appropriate as George looking under his couch and saying "I know those WMD's are around somewhere.", or as appropriate as telling the insurgents to "bring it on." Or as appropriate as making up excuses for the war to begin with.

Maybe she has lost it. Maybe she's nutso. A treasonous president killed her son. I'd be nutso too.

[kernel crash]

"Maybe she's nutso."

Finally something we can agree on.

Like I said, you had to see the video to know what I'm getting at.

[TrailBate]

"Maybe she's nutso."

Finally something we can agree on.

Like I said, you had to see the video to know what I'm getting at.


http://movies.crooksandliars.com/cnn_sr_sheehan_arrested_050926a.wmv

[kernel crash]

Can't view that at work so I'll have to wait till I get home. I noticed there was a reference to a "short" clip. I wonder if it will look like what I saw.

[TrailBate]

hmm, that link isnt' working for me now. ???

She does appear to be smiling. Maybe she has a cop fetish?

[FriedRys]

Maybe she has turned into just another publicity whore



From cnn.com

Police warned them three times that they were breaking the law by failing to move along, then began making arrests. One man climbed over the White House fence and was quickly subdued by Secret Service agents.

Sheehan, 48, was the first taken into custody. She smiled as she was carried to the curb, then stood up and walked to a police vehicle while protesters chanted, "The whole world is watching."

[slapheadmofo]

I think Cindy's fame timer is at 14:58 and counting...

[TrailBate]

I think Cindy's fame timer is at 14:58 and counting...


People keep saying that, yet she's on about 3 months and counting.....

[Mr_Cheeze]

I am not sure why so many on the right continue to deny the fact that she has been a rallying point for the anti-war movement. I still think she's a wacko and an attention whore, proven by that ridiculous display at the White House; but that she is causing more Americans to think about the war and the need for it, I admit, is a good thing.
As we get closer to 2008, watch more and more Republicans begin to distance themselves from this neo-con administration. It won't matter, though. The blind supporters will continue to shout endless praises in the face of the nearly daily episodes of violence in Iraq, and continue to alienate themselves from a growing number of Americans who are waking up.

[TrailBate]

The blind supporters will continue to shout endless praises in the face of the nearly daily episodes of violence in Iraq, and continue to alienate themselves from a growing number of Americans who are waking up.




Don't you mean, " growing number of Americans who are siding with the terrorists?"

[truckboy]

Too bad "they" (and you know who you are) were asleep for the past 5 years.

Like the bumper sticker says:

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention

[catbbq]

I think Cindy's fame timer is at 14:58 and counting...


People keep saying that, yet she's on about 3 months and counting.....


I haven't heard anything about her in quiet awhile except for what you guys keep throwing out. But then my only source of news is NPR, and I don't listen 24 hours a day.

[TrailBate]

I dont' watch much MSM, so you could be right. All I hear about her is from left-wing or right-wing sources.

[kernel crash]

So now Cindy's got a book out? How fast was this thrown together.

"Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan waits for people to show up at her book signing near President Bush's ranch on Saturday, Nov. 26, 2005 in Crawford, Texas. Sheehan, whose 24-year-old Casey died in Iraq, called for anti-war activists to return to Crawford this week as Bush celebrated the Thanksgiving holiday. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci)"

[iceman]

Isn't it interesting how these things evolve. At the begining, right after 911 it seemed all of America was angry and prepared to strike out at the world and support the troops who defend the freedoms taken for granted, then the fighting starts and soldiers get killed, as will always happen in war, then the visuals to the cost of anger are seen and resolve is shaken. As the cost becomes greater the guilt begins to settle into hearts and the resolve for vengence is replace by the desprate need to undo what has been done, only it's done and can't be undone, so the desperation turns to anger again only the anger hasn't an enemy so the body thrashes around the new anger like a weapon aginst the very thing that it had created in the begining, causing unrest and casulties with in it's self. this self distructive action will continue to spread like a virus as the illness of anger is allowed to continue unchecked, reaking havic on the body untill the cost to it's self is so great it can no longer sustain it's self. This cycle has been seen in our history before and I hope it will not be allowed to become the monster it had once been, a monster that forgets why it was angry to begin with and begins to lash out at thoes who were placed their by us to begin with. So I say let Cindy and others protest it is a right won for them and secured for them by blood.

So while we are all taking sides in this debate let's not forget to take time this Holliday season to remember not only the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen who have died but also thoes who are still fighting, and pray that they and their loved ones will find Peace and Joy.

Merry Christmas All.

[FriedRys]

Isn't it interesting how these things evolve. At the begining, right after 911 it seemed all of America was angry and prepared to strike out at the world and support the troops who defend the freedoms taken for granted, then the fighting starts and soldiers get killed, as will always happen in war, then the visuals to the cost of anger are seen and resolve is shaken. As the cost becomes greater the guilt begins to settle into hearts and the resolve for vengence is replace by the desprate need to undo what has been done, only it's done and can't be undone, so the desperation turns to anger again only the anger hasn't an enemy so the body thrashes around the new anger like a weapon aginst the very thing that it had created in the begining, causing unrest and casulties with in it's self. this self distructive action will continue to spread like a virus as the illness of anger is allowed to continue unchecked, reaking havic on the body untill the cost to it's self is so great it can no longer sustain it's self. This cycle has been seen in our history before and I hope it will not be allowed to become the monster it had once been, a monster that forgets why it was angry to begin with and begins to lash out at thoes who were placed their by us to begin with. So I say let Cindy and others protest it is a right won for them and secured for them by blood.

So while we are all taking sides in this debate let's not forget to take time this Holliday season to remember not only the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen who have died but also thoes who are still fighting, and pray that they and their loved ones will find Peace and Joy.

Merry Christmas All.
Quite possibly the best post I've seen.

[TrailBate]

No, you miss the whole point: Iraq had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11!!!

Nobody is complaining about Afghanistan. Iraq was a complete lie.

Now all the American hypocrites will start talking about Christmas and world peace, blah blah blah, while they sit there and wave their flags and preach about how Americans are dying and killing in Iraq to "protect your freedoms." Complete bull****

You really believe in peace and freedom? Get your dumb arses out of Iraq.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Funny, I read Timmy's post and got a completely different take, which is that the American psyche as regards this war, and war in general, evolves or devolves along with the fortunes of those fighting. I don't see where he mentioned anything about any Iraq and 9/11 connection, and he defended Cindy Sheehan; but you saw what you wanted to see, I guess.

It must be asking too much of the lefties to recognize that those fighting for us deserve our support, no matter how one feels about the war itself. They sacrifice much while we sit in our cozy jobs and homes criticizing those who wage war on our behalf. You may believe that the war is ********. Hell, I believe it too. But at least I can recognize that those men and women ARE fighting for our freedom. Don't confuse the jobs of our soldiers with the politics behind the war. Otherwise you just sound like an unpatriotic and ungrateful fool, and I don't believe you are truly either. Try no to get so defensive under the glare of reason. I realize that's hard for liberals.

[Slider]

those fighting for us deserve our support, no matter how one feels about the war itself.

This is true, but it isn't what Timmy said. He said:


As the cost becomes greater the guilt begins to settle into hearts and the resolve for vengence is replace by the desprate need to undo what has been done.


That is not the reason for "liberals" (or any rational thinker) to object to the Iraq war, and the objections are themselves in support of the tropps, since dying for no cause is the ultimate evil. As Trailbait says, Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. Never did. Timmy's attempt to tie it to 9/11 has been seen before, and it is simply wrong.

I support our troops. Let's bring them home.

Slider

[TrailBate]

Funny, I read Timmy's post and got a completely different take, which is that the American psyche as regards this war, and war in general, evolves or devolves along with the fortunes of those fighting. I don't see where he mentioned anything about any Iraq and 9/11 connection, and he defended Cindy Sheehan; but you saw what you wanted to see, I guess.

It must be asking too much of the lefties to recognize that those fighting for us deserve our support, no matter how one feels about the war itself. They sacrifice much while we sit in our cozy jobs and homes criticizing those who wage war on our behalf. You may believe that the war is ********. Hell, I believe it too. But at least I can recognize that those men and women ARE fighting for our freedom. Don't confuse the jobs of our soldiers with the politics behind the war. Otherwise you just sound like an unpatriotic and ungrateful fool, and I don't believe you are truly either. Try no to get so defensive under the glare of reason. I realize that's hard for liberals.


C'mon Cheeze, don't fall for the "if you don't support the war, you hate America's troops" crap. If people really supported the troops, they'd be pretty pissed off that they are in Iraq. THey are NOT fighting for OUR freedom in Iraq. This is not an insult against the troops, it's an insult against those who sent them there. Don't be angry at liberals for saying it, be angry that it's true, and it's true thanks to Bush and Co.

[Mr_Cheeze]

You misunderstand when I, and Timmy talk about our troops fighting for our freedom. That statement is not about Iraq, specifically. It's a job description. Iraq or not, like it or not, those guys are fighting for you. It doesn't hurt to at least recognize that once in a while. It doesn't suddenly mean you support the war or George Bush.

Don't jump all over Timmy for merely showing his respect for our troops, not unless you really want to appear petty.

[Slider]

The reference to Cindy Sheehan is pretty specific. She is protesting Iraq, in case you hadn't noticed.

Slider

[kernel crash]

I think 10 people can read Timmys statement and all get something different out of it depending on their political leanings. But one thing that is undenyable is the short attention span of the American public when it comes to being able to dig in for the long haul. Even if this was the most just war in American history, the images being sent home every night along with the commentaries from the press would make any war "unwinable" for this country. That is the reality we face right now and it doesn't appear to be changing any time soon. These same voices were heard during WWI and WWII. Not one drop of American blood for "their" war was the cry. Funny how being able to look back over time puts things in a different perspective. How will this all be viewed 20 years from now?

[Slider]

Like the fiasco that it is, of course. But we'll know more about the backroom sleaze that Bush practiced to get us in this mess in the first place.

It isn't about attention span. It is about senseless death.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

You see, this is what liberals do. It kills them to have to ponder any issue outside of their short sighted vision. Timmy made an interesting point, but you think they could comment on its substance? No, these guys cannot get off of their crusade. Can't recognize the troops. That would be giving in to the neocons! And they wonder why their patriotism is often questioned.

[Slider]

Seems like you never even read the post, Cheeze. If all you got from it was "support the troops", you really ought to consider a remedial reading comprehension course.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"It isn't about attention span. It is about senseless death."

I disagree. Sure some feel that way but I'm talking about the element out there that feels that there is never a viable reason to go to war. These people would rather look the other way and try to live in some utopian world that doesn't exist. These would be the first people to get rolled over when the tanks move in. And you say it isn't about attention span? Come on. These people want a nice quick clean ending like they see on CSI every night.

[Slider]

If the Iraq war wasn't pointless to us as Americans, you'd have an argument. And it is even worse than pointless, since it is about profiteering, which makes it far more evil.

Pacifism may not make sense to you, but it exists for a reason. As a role model for the world, I'll take Ghandi over Bush any day. Imperialism is an anachronism, and if we don't abandon it, the real war to end wars will happen. Bush is doing his best to hurry it along, and we are all paying for that.

Had Iraq made any genuinely aggresive move toward this country, as did Afghanistan behind bin Laden, I'd be all over whatever invasion we wanted to muster in retaliation. Afterward, as now, I'd say it's time to get our ass out. But it isn't about defense; it is only about money for Bush and his cronies, at our expense. And there's more money for Halliburton and their ilk to reap, so we're there for a lot longer.

If that doesn't make the death toll senseless, I don't know what does.

Slider

[FriedRys]

As a role model for the world, I'll take Ghandi over Bush any dayso your hoping the U.S, will meet with the same amount of success that Ghandi has had?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Seems like you never even read the post, Cheeze. If all you got from it was "support the troops", you really ought to consider a remedial reading comprehension course.

Slider


Oh, I read your post. The substance of it: yea, yea attention span... but nevermind all of that feel good, nicey nicey, support the troops garbage. Bush is evil and he's killing them.

Like I said, typical liberal, ad nauseum stuff.

The funny thing is, I don't even disagree on all of your points against this war. My gripe here is that it really kills you guys to take a step back for two freaking seconds from your repetitive ranting to recognize that those guys fighting in Iraq deserve some kudos for what they do and why they do it. You're all so focused in on Bush this Bush that that you often overlook... or just refuse to recognize that those men and women deserve a lot more support than they are given. This is the same thing that happened during Vietnam, when our troops were vilified and publicly scorned upon their return to homesoil. This is starting to happen again to some extent. Most Americans are against the war right now. That's ok. They should be. But most Americans are also still supportive of our military. You guys would do well to remember that.

[Slider]

What a load of crap.

Those who suport the war are the most disloyal to both the troops and the country. You really should support our military and our country more and show opposition to this immoral, pointless war.

Slider

[TrailBate]

My gripe here is that it really kills you guys to take a step back for two freaking seconds from your repetitive ranting to recognize that those guys fighting in Iraq deserve some kudos for what they do and why they do it. You're all so focused in on Bush this Bush that that you often overlook... or just refuse to recognize that those men and women deserve a lot more support than they are given. This is the same thing that happened during Vietnam, when our troops were vilified and publicly scorned upon their return to homesoil. This is starting to happen again to some extent. Most Americans are against the war right now. That's ok. They should be. But most Americans are also still supportive of our military. You guys would do well to remember that.


No, the problem with YOU people is that you can't separate the soldiers from the politics. You think that just because they are there, we should support the war, no matter what. That's bull****. Liberals want them to come home so they can live, especially since there is no reason for them to be there. The war supporters just say, "oh well, they are there now, so just shut up and deal with it." It's that thinking that lets this crap go on, and let's more americans die. Then you call that "supporting the troops."

[iceman]

"Funny, I read Timmy's post and got a completely different take, which is that the American psyche as regards this war, and war in general, evolves or devolves along with the fortunes of those fighting. I don't see where he mentioned anything about any Iraq and 9/11 connection, and he defended Cindy Sheehan; but you saw what you wanted to see, I guess." (Mr_cheeze)

I am glad to see that at least one person read my post in the context that it was written, I wasn't then nor am I now choosing sides in this debate as I see some logic in both arguments. I do not how ever enjoy watching others disecting my words just to apply views that were not intended to begin with. Mr_cheeze is correct in the fact that I was generalizing on the evolution of the emotions not the politics associated with war. I do defend Cindy's right to protest and lament her loss even as I remember that it was beave souls like her and her child that gave us the freedoms we enjoy today.
The generalized observations contained in my post were gained from 20 years of uniform service and observing people in times of crisis.

I applaud the spirit of the liberals and the resolve of the conservitives, it is exactly thoes qualities that make this a strong nation, so please take what I wrote in the context that it was ment, and take the time to have a "MERRY CHRISTMAS"

[Mr_Cheeze]

Thanks Slider and Trailbait for continuing to make my point for me. Well done.

[Slider]

If we make your point for you, it is only because you dont make it yourself. You want to polarize the debate over the war with ill-reasoned rants. We choose to oppose the war in loyalty to the troops and country.

If that somehow helps you form your ideas more clearly, glad to help.

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

My gripe here is that it really kills you guys to take a step back for two freaking seconds from your repetitive ranting

BINGO!

Merry Xmas Timmy - nice to read some more insightful stuff here once in awhile. Thanks.

[catbbq]

My gripe here is that it really kills you guys to take a step back for two freaking seconds from your repetitive ranting

BINGO!

Merry Xmas Timmy - nice to read some more insightful stuff here once in awhile. Thanks.


Merry Friggin' Christmas everyone!

[Mr_Cheeze]

If we make your point for you, it is only because you dont make it yourself. You want to polarize the debate over the war with ill-reasoned rants. We choose to oppose the war in loyalty to the troops and country.

If that somehow helps you form your ideas more clearly, glad to help.

Slider


Oh I am polarizing the debate. Riiiiight.

Teakettle: Hey Pot, you're black.

Merry Xmas Timmy - nice to read some more insightful stuff here once in awhile. Thanks.



Merry Friggin' Christmas everyone!

Wait a second. That is offensive to non-Christians. I will accept a Happy Friggin' Winter Solstice, though. Thank you.
And in return, Season's Greetings. Here is a nice Holiday Tree to hang your presents over.
http://www.christmastreeforme.com/images/RO161773.jpg

[iceman]

Mr_cheeze, Happy yule to you. does this mean that snow flakes will fall up this year?