Reason # 18,435 to Love Bush

[Rych]

If Rove did it he must swing. My guess is because nothing leaks from this White House, this leak was done on purpose.

[Slider]

You're missing a key point. Rove did not do this on his own. Your boy is complicit. We have a treasonous President.

So this belongs in the other ".....Bush" thread, and is definitely the capstone.

Treason. Impeachment. I really, really like the sound of that. And so does most of the rest of the world, I am guessing.

Slider

[kernel crash]

Actually as I look deeper into this story I'm all but convinced Rove will not take a fall on this. His actual comments have been taken way out of context. Wilson denied his wife had anything to do with getting him that assignment in Nigeria. Now there's an e mail that surfaced showing he lied about that. Meanwhile the reporter for the NY Times that's in jail, who is she protecting? Karl Rove? I think not.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Good question. That's another thing in this whole case that is mystifying. That and why is Novak not taking any heat?

I know that folks like Slider are masturbating over this whole Rove thing, but I cannot get past the feeling that this could just be Newsweek trying to get back at the Whitehouse over their embarrassment from the Gitmo-Koran abuse non-story.

[TrailBate]

riiiight.

Rove outed an undercover agent. Bush said he'd fire whoever did that. Mclellan said they'd be fired "at the very least." Yet, the rightys are just bashing the media again.

So outing an agent as retribution for calling the WMD threat a complete lie, is ok. Clinton getting a bj from an intern is MAJOR!?

You can sign a petition to fire Rove:

http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/rove.php

Now your calling the gitmo-koran story a "non-story", but that's not what the rightys thought when they believed it was not true. It wasn't a "non-story" until it was proven true.

[Rych]

riiiight.

Rove outed an undercover agent. Bush said he'd fire whoever did that. Mclellan said they'd be fired "at the very least." Yet, the rightys are just bashing the media again.

So outing an agent as retribution for calling the WMD threat a complete lie, is ok. Clinton getting a bj from an intern is MAJOR!?

You can sign a petition to fire Rove:

http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/rove.php

Now your calling the gitmo-koran story a "non-story", but that's not what the rightys thought when they believed it was not true. It wasn't a "non-story" until it was proven true.


I'm holding judgement until all the facts are out. But one fact is the woman was no longer an undercover agent... She frequently walks through Langley's (sic?) front door.

[Rych]

Do a google search on the word a$$. Check out the second entry.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

the second entry was a dictionary????

Anyways, no wonder he's so amoral... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove

Interesting life the man has led.

[kernel crash]

By the way. Do most people understand that this assignment to Niger was not approved at the top of command. The president didn't know about it. The Vice President didn't know about this. The head of the CIA didn't now about this. It was a rouge operation that was cooked up by Valerie Plame to discredit the administrations assertions about the Iraq Niger connection. What qualifications did her husband have to do this job? Karl Rove was basically telling the reporter not to put to much stock in the results of that investigation because of the way it was conducted. As a matter of fact, I believe Valerie and her husband, were John Kerry supporters.

[Rych]

the second entry was a dictionary????

Anyways, no wonder he's so amoral... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove

Interesting life the man has led.


Sorry substitute "S" for $

[Slider]

By the way. Do most people understand that this assignment to Niger was not approved at the top of command. The president didn't know about it. The Vice President didn't know about this. The head of the CIA didn't now about this. It was a rouge operation that was cooked up by Valerie Plame to discredit the administrations assertions about the Iraq Niger connection. What qualifications did her husband have to do this job? Karl Rove was basically telling the reporter not to put to much stock in the results of that investigation because of the way it was conducted. As a matter of fact, I believe Valerie and her husband, were John Kerry supporters.


Talk about irrelevant spin! Plame was an undercover agent in the CIA, they were absolutely the right agency to investigate the President's claims that there was an attempt at a yellowcake deal, and Wilson was an appropriate choice for the job, regardless of how Novak, Rove, or any other Bush apologist tries to bend the facts.

To make it even simpler for you: Whether or not Plame was the decision maker on the deal, and who she supported for president, is 100% irrelevant. Saying otherwise is a blatant attempt at typical Republican misdirection.

So try a little harder. This one won't go away so easily.

Slider

[Rych]

You're right slider she was an undercover agent. But when she was "outted" she was no longer undercover. She often worked out of Langley.

[kernel crash]

"So try a little harder. "


"Plame's outing may not have been illegal. According to the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act ...

The column's date is important because the law against unmasking the identities of U.S. spies says a "covert agent" must have been on an overseas assignment "within the last five years." The assignment also must be long-term, not a short trip or temporary post, two experts on the law say.

Victoria Toensing, former counsel for the Senate Intelligence Committee who helped write the law protecting the identities of intelligence agents, told FOX News on Thursday that "no, in a nutshell," Rove did not commit a crime. Plame's status at the time of the revelation is key to that conclusion, she said."


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162485,00.html

[Slider]

"So try a little harder. "

Victoria Toensing, former counsel for the Senate Intelligence Committee who helped write the law protecting the identities of intelligence agents, told FOX News on Thursday that "no, in a nutshell," Rove did not commit a crime. Plame's status at the time of the revelation is key to that conclusion, she said."

And how, exactly, would a "former counsel" know what the status of a CIA operative would be? If Ms. Toesing did know, it would most likely come from a treasonous leak from the likes of Rove the Amoral. At least, she's part of the spin campaign, tossing in "expert" interpretation for those "fair and balanced" "journalists" at Fox. This is more Republican crap.

Beyond that, the Espionage Act of 1917 applies as well, which makes it a crime to leak state secrets.

No dodging it - Rove the Amoral is in for a fall, but you'll get to hear a lot more crap from Republicans first.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"And how, exactly, would a "former counsel" know what the status of a CIA operative would be? "

She helped write the law that was supposedly broken. That would make her a bit of an expert on that law wouldn't it?

[Slider]

An expert on the law, but how would she know how it applies to the status of Valerie Plame? Where would she get background on a CIA agent?

If she had it, it could only be through another treasonous leak. If she doesn't have the info, it is another case of an "expert" trotted out by the adminstration or their flunkies at Fox, to add some more spin.

Having half the relevant info is not sufficient. Making pronouncements as if you have all the info when you don't is Fox journalism at its best, and I am making a tiny leap in assuming the person interviewing her never pressed that issue.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

No dodging it - Rove the Amoral is in for a fall, but you'll get to hear a lot more crap from Republicans first.

Slider


Not to mention a bunch more from liberals with their hairs-across-their-asses for anyone with an R in front of their name.

[Slider]

Well, we are talking treason here. Just a little bit more weighty than, say, a blow job.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"but how would she know how it applies to the status of Valerie Plame? Where would she get background on a CIA agent? "

From Valerie's husbands book. (see quote from article)

"In Wilson's book, "The Politics of Truth," he writes that he and his future wife both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997. Neither spouse was again stationed outside the United States, according to the book; they appear to have remained in Washington, D.C., where they married and became parents of twins.

Six years later, in July 2003, Plame's name was revealed by columnist Robert Novak.

The column's date is vital because the Intelligence Identities Protection Act says a "covert agent" must have been on an overseas assignment "within the last five years." The assignment also must be long-term, not a short trip or temporary post, two experts on the law say. Wilson's book makes numerous references to the couple's life in Washington over the six years up to July 2003."


Hey I'm not defending the guy. I'm just making my point on why I think this will all blow over.

[TrailBate]

By the way. Do most people understand that this assignment to Niger was not approved at the top of command. The president didn't know about it. The Vice President didn't know about this. The head of the CIA didn't now about this. It was a rouge operation that was cooked up by Valerie Plame to discredit the administrations assertions about the Iraq Niger connection. What qualifications did her husband have to do this job? Karl Rove was basically telling the reporter not to put to much stock in the results of that investigation because of the way it was conducted. As a matter of fact, I believe Valerie and her husband, were John Kerry supporters.


These are classic right-wing talking points. and they are all lies. Just like the "she was not under cover" lie.

[kernel crash]

"These are classic right-wing talking points. and they are all lies. Just like the "she was not under cover" lie. "

Really! Point out the lies in that statement and be prepared to back them up.

[Slider]

"but how would she know how it applies to the status of Valerie Plame? Where would she get background on a CIA agent? "
From Valerie's husbands book. (see quote from article)
"In Wilson's book, "The Politics of Truth," he writes that he and his future wife both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997. Neither spouse was again stationed outside the United States, according to the book; they appear to have remained in Washington, D.C., where they married and became parents of twins.

Hey I'm not defending the guy. I'm just making my point on why I think this will all blow over.


So you're saying that her husband would have outed her himself in his book, if she was working undercover at the time? Sorry, doesn't fly. And the Espionage Act still applies, either way.

Slider

[kernel crash]

What the "article" seems to be saying, is that by his own admission in the book, he and his wife were in the States for the last 7 years. Therfore she could not be considered on overseas assignment within the last 5 years. If you follow the letter of that law, that might just be enough of a loophole... to shove Karl Rove through.

[TrailBate]

"These are classic right-wing talking points. and they are all lies. Just like the "she was not under cover" lie. "

Really! Point out the lies in that statement and be prepared to back them up.



Rebuttals to all the right-wing talking points. Notice how all the rebuttals have LINKS. Try reading them before you come back with "left wing commie pinko anti-american website."


http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/004870.php

[sizlinseagulsoup]

By the way. Do most people understand that this assignment to Niger was not approved at the top of command. The president didn't know about it. The Vice President didn't know about this. The head of the CIA didn't now about this. It was a rouge operation that was cooked up by Valerie Plame to discredit the administrations assertions about the Iraq Niger connection. What qualifications did her husband have to do this job? Karl Rove was basically telling the reporter not to put to much stock in the results of that investigation because of the way it was conducted. As a matter of fact, I believe Valerie and her husband, were John Kerry supporters.


This looking very familiar... I wonder where I have seen this dialog from. Oh wait! I know where... http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Exclusive_GOP_talking_points_on_Rove_seek_to_discr e_0712.html

[sizlinseagulsoup]

"By the way. Do most people understand that this assignment to Niger was not approved at the top of command. The president didn't know about it. The Vice President didn't know about this."

How do you know they are telling the truth? It's not like they haven't lied before to advance there agenda. (and please don't make me list all the instances that they have lied, I don't have 10 hours)

[Mr_Cheeze]

Well, we are talking treason here. Just a little bit more weighty than, say, a blow job.

Slider


Treason, you mean like selling nuclear secrets to China?

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/004870.php

For Christs sake, this might as well be Pravda. If you are going to cite any reference, at least try and find one that at least tries to be neutral. You would be equally as critical had someone cited something from the Righty bumlickers at NewsMax.

[kernel crash]

"This looking very familiar... I wonder where I have seen this dialog from. Oh wait! I know where..."

Actually I've never seen that site before. I don't have to cut and paste my talking points but I do appreciate the link. Now that I look that over I'm even more convinced that Rove has nothing to worry about. Hey thanks for setting me straight Kevin.

[kernel crash]

"How do you know they are telling the truth? It's not like they haven't lied before to advance there agenda. "

You mean Valerie and her husband Joe. Right? I mean they have already been caught lying about this whole thing. Joe said his wife had nothing to do with his trip. Now there's an email. But hey, Bush probably cooked that up anyways. You know, this is getting more comical by the day :D

[TrailBate]

For Christs sake, this might as well be Pravda. If you are going to cite any reference, at least try and find one that at least tries to be neutral. You would be equally as critical had someone cited something from the Righty bumlickers at NewsMax.



ah, so I see you checked out the LINKS? No?

This wasn't an editorial. It was loaded with links disproving the right-wing talking points. Why do you see them here and not on right wing websites? Because they don't want you to see them!

[TrailBate]

David Corn in the Nation, July 16:
....a CIA operative who apparently has worked under what's known as "nonofficial cover" and who has had the dicey and difficult mission of tracking parties trying to buy or sell weapons of mass destruction or WMD material....a woman known to friends as an energy analyst for a private firm.


Newsday, July 21:
Intelligence officials confirmed to Newsday Monday that Valerie Plame, wife of retired Ambassador Joseph Wilson, works at the agency on weapons of mass destruction issues in an undercover capacity -- at least she was undercover until last week when she was named by columnist Robert Novak.

....A senior intelligence official confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked "alongside" the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.


Washington Post, September 29:
She is a case officer in the CIA's clandestine service and works as an analyst on weapons of mass destruction. Novak published her maiden name, Plame, which she had used overseas and has not been using publicly. Intelligence sources said top officials at the agency were very concerned about the disclosure because it could allow foreign intelligence services to track down some of her former contacts and lead to the exposure of agents.


MSNBC, September 30:
CIA lawyers answered a series of 11 questions "affirming that the woman's identity was classified, that whoever released it was not authorized to do so and that the news media would not have been able to guess her identity without the leak."


Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst, September 30:
I know Joseph Wilson well enough to know that his wife was in fact a deep cover operative running a network of informants on what is supposedly this administration’s first-priority issue: Weapons of mass destruction.


Larry Johnson, former CIA analyst on NewsHour, September 30:
I worked with this woman. She started training with me. She has been undercover for three decades....she works in an area where people she meets with overseas could be compromised.... she's a woman of great integrity....This is a woman who is very solid, very low key and not about show boating.


CNN, October 1:
Sources told CNN that Plame works in the CIA's Directorate of Operations -- the part of the agency in charge of spying -- and worked in the field for many years as an undercover officer. "If she were only an analyst, not an operative, we would not have filed a crimes report" with the Justice Department, a senior intelligence official said.

(An earlier version of this story quoted CNN reporter David Ensor saying, "This is a person who did run agents. This is a person who was out there in the world collecting information.")


Mel Goodman, former CIA analyst, Washington Post online Q&A, October 1:
....I've worked in Washington for the past 38 years, including 24 years at the CIA...and I know Ambassador Wilson....and I did not know that his wife was an agency employee. Let's face it....this was targetted information as part of a political vendetta....a pure act of revenge.


Jim Marcinkowski, former CIA case officer, LA Times, Ocotber 1:
The exposure of Valerie Plame — who I have reason to believe operated undercover — apparently by a senior administration official, is nothing less than a despicable act for which someone should be held accountable. This case is especially upsetting to me because she was my agency classmate as well as my friend.


New York Times, October 2:
Valerie Plame was among the small subset of Central Intelligence Agency officers who could not disguise their profession by telling friends that they worked for the United States government.

That cover story, standard for American operatives who pretend to be diplomats or other federal employees, was not an option for Ms. Plame, people who knew her said on Wednesday. As a covert operative who specialized in nonconventional weapons and sometimes worked abroad, she passed herself off as a private energy expert, what the agency calls nonofficial cover.


New York Daily News, October 2:
Two former senior intelligence officials confirmed that Valerie Plame, 40, is an operations officer in the spy agency's directorate of operations - the clandestine service.

Plame "ran intelligence operations overseas," said Vincent Cannistraro, former CIA counterterrorism operations chief.

Her specialty in the agency's nonproliferation center was biological, chemical and nuclear weapons and "recruiting agents, sending them to areas where they could access information about proliferation matters, weapons of mass destruction," Cannistraro said.


Four separate ex-CIA employees are now on the record saying Plame was undercover and ran a network of informants, and a fifth who knew Wilson and had 24 years at the Agency says he didn't know Plame worked there — which means her status was hardly common knowledge.


funny how this story just keeps devolving for the republicans. First Rove didn't do it, then he did but he didn't mention her by name, then she is not actually undercover, then she WAS actually undercover, but her cover was already blown, then Wilson was a liar anyway (for telling the truth about Bush's WMD lies!!!) and on it goes.

why is it that after over a year and a half, the rightys are just now coming out with these new talking points? If she was not undercover, etc, wouldn't they have already figured that out?

[TrailBate]

CNN reported this morning that Rove is claiming the reporters told HIM the identity of Wilson's wife. what a crock.

I also dug up an old NY Times article that quoted Wilson as saying his wife was NOT undercover at the time of the leak.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

"This looking very familiar... I wonder where I have seen this dialog from. Oh wait! I know where..."

Actually I've never seen that site before. I don't have to cut and paste my talking points but I do appreciate the link. Now that I look that over I'm even more convinced that Rove has nothing to worry about. Hey thanks for setting me straight Kevin.


The point that I was making is that its biased crap that's obviously not truthful. Why does it matter who he was voting for eh?

And while we're at it...
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/07/14/rove-primer/

Sort of debunks all that GOP crap.

People who think Rove is innocent are either 1) naive or 2) insane.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

"How do you know they are telling the truth? It's not like they haven't lied before to advance there agenda. "

You mean Valerie and her husband Joe. Right? I mean they have already been caught lying about this whole thing. Joe said his wife had nothing to do with his trip. Now there's an email. But hey, Bush probably cooked that up anyways. You know, this is getting more comical by the day :D


Funny how Republicans have to smear the Wilsons to escape their own crimes.

[Rych]

So Kevin and Trailbait, What is the resolution here. Do you think at the very least Rove should step down?

[TrailBate]

So Kevin and Trailbait, What is the resolution here. Do you think at the very least Rove should step down?


No, I think they should wait until they find Rove's spooge on George W's dress.

[Rych]

I think if you out a CIA agent you should be out. I think Rove should resign right after John Kerry resigns from the senate, for outing Fulton Armstrong.

'United States senators, including former presidential candidate John Kerry, may have blown the cover of a CIA agent.

At a hearing to discuss the nomination of John Bolton as US ambassador to the United Nations, politicians discussed a dispute over Bolton’s treatment of an intelligence analyst.

The analyst was referred to as “Mr Smith” but when Kerry read from a transcript of closed door interviews he mentioned a name that had not previously come up.

“Did Otto Reich share his belief that Fulton Armstrong should be removed from his position? The answer is yes,” Kerry said.
“Did John Bolton share that view? Yes.”

Bolton replied: “As I said, I had lost confidence in Mr Smith, and I conveyed that. I thought that was the honest thing to do.”'

[TrailBate]

I think if you out a CIA agent you should be out. I think Rove should resign right after John Kerry resigns from the senate, for outing Fulton Armstrong.

'United States senators, including former presidential candidate John Kerry, may have blown the cover of a CIA agent.

At a hearing to discuss the nomination of John Bolton as US ambassador to the United Nations, politicians discussed a dispute over Bolton’s treatment of an intelligence analyst.

The analyst was referred to as “Mr Smith” but when Kerry read from a transcript of closed door interviews he mentioned a name that had not previously come up.

“Did Otto Reich share his belief that Fulton Armstrong should be removed from his position? The answer is yes,” Kerry said.
“Did John Bolton share that view? Yes.”

Bolton replied: “As I said, I had lost confidence in Mr Smith, and I conveyed that. I thought that was the honest thing to do.”'


yeah? Do you ever research anything the Bushbots tell you? Armstrong's name and identity were no secret.

http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2002/10/01/World/Castro.Weaponizes.West.Nile.Virus-273166.shtml

sept 16, 2002

But despite the publicly available evidence presented by highly authoritative sources, U.S. officials are not cleared to make unambiguous statements about Cuba's bioweapons threat. And it has yet to be mentioned by the president or any member of his Cabinet. The CIA's national intelligence officer for Latin America, Fulton Armstrong, is "coordinating talking points" on the issue. But when contacted by Insight he declined comment.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70D10FB3D5A0C768CDDA80894DB4044 82&incamp=archive:search

January, 2003

http://www.hispanicvista.com/html3/031703hc.htm

march, 2003


Glad you brought up Bolton, though. This is just one more guy that has tried to attack anyone that did not agree with the neo-con's lies about WMD programs. Thanks for pointing out the pattern.

[Slider]

Quote from Rych:

"I think if you out a CIA agent you should be out. I think Rove should resign right after John Kerry resigns from the senate, for outing Fulton Armstrong. "

Nice spin. Totally irrelevant, but nice.

Go ahead, try to convince us that the president's key advisor, outing an undercover agent intentionally, for personal political gain, is in any way on a par with that. And, whatever the intent, yes, go ahead and prosecute Kerry if your anecdote is more than the usual unsubstantiated crap that gets foisted here as fact.

You see, Kerry is not the issue we are talking about. He has nothing to do with this treason. Pointing to him, or Clinton, or Bozo is exactly the type of politics that Karl Rove was practicing when he purposely told a reporter that Plame was an undercover agent.

This kind of "yeah but what about...." crap is the key problem with Republican politics. Republicans mistake spin for substance, as you are doing. You are a victim of a an effective smear and propaganda campaign that takes advantage of the fact that most of America is very gullible. Those suckers that Barnum said were born every minute are who got us where we are today, suffering under a treasonous, war-mongering, profiteering administration that is succeeding in undermining our nation's most fundamental ideals.

You won't get away with it. Watch and see.

Slider

[TrailBate]

SO, what have we got here?

We have the Downing street memo, we have Rove outing an agent that did not agree with the WMD lies, Bolton doing the same, UN inspectors concluding Iraq had nothing, Bush and Cheney criticizing human rights groups for abuse claims, even though these same human rights groups were quoted in the lead up to Iraq.

And somehow you are un-american for not supporting the war!!

This Rove case should just be used as part of a bigger investigation into this entire administration.

[TrailBate]

You guys remember last year when Bush announced the capture of some terrorists, and the Pakistani's and Brits were pissed off about it, because it screwed up more anti-terror operations?

ABC is reporting that that leak helped prevent London from stopping their recent terror attack.

OOPS!

[kernel crash]

"ABC is reporting that that leak helped prevent London from stopping their recent terror attack."

That's a bit of a stretch if you ask me. You would have to make an awful lot of assumptions to get to that. But hey, ABC, it must be right. ::)

[kernel crash]

"Funny how Republicans have to smear the Wilsons to escape their own crimes. "

Wasn't Joe Wilson passed over for a promotion from this administration? You don't suppose he might have been a little bitter do you?

[TrailBate]

"ABC is reporting that that leak helped prevent London from stopping their recent terror attack."

That's a bit of a stretch if you ask me. You would have to make an awful lot of assumptions to get to that. But hey, ABC, it must be right. ::)





no stretch. Those who committed the attacks were part of the group being investigated before Bush blew it. Had he kept his pie hole shut, they may have been caught.

[Mr_Cheeze]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050715/D8BBQEVO0.html

So now Rove is blaming Robert "Teflon" Novak. As a great president once said, "Well... here we go again."

[TrailBate]

"Funny how Republicans have to smear the Wilsons to escape their own crimes. "

Wasn't Joe Wilson passed over for a promotion from this administration? You don't suppose he might have been a little bitter do you?



let me get this straight. Because Wilson was "allegedly" passed over for a promotion, he took it upon himself to go to Niger and make up false reports claiming Niger never sent yellowcake to Iraq, then had his own wife outed on purpose so he could blame it on Bush?? oye!!

I love it how the Bush administration attacks the accuser, instead of defending what it did.

[kernel crash]

Actually in his "original" report he did find evidence to backup some of those claims. He changed the report and later said he got the dates messed up or something like that.

[TrailBate]

Actually in his "original" report he did find evidence to backup some of those claims. He changed the report and later said he got the dates messed up or something like that.


source?

[TrailBate]

check this out! ;D

It's a CNN report about how Rove may have learned Plame's identity from Novak. Listen for the woman in the background saying, "that's bullsh@@" ;D

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Lou_Dobbs_********.wmv

[Slider]

Whaddya know. The VP got in on the treason fun, too. There's a surprise.....not.

Slider

Reporter ties Cheney aide to CIA story
Time identifies chief of staff as 2d source
By Diedtra Henderson, Globe Staff | July 18, 2005

WASHINGTON -- I. Lewis ''Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, was a second source for a Time magazine article that revealed the identity of a covert CIA agent, the magazine reported yesterday, undercutting repeated White House denials.

For two years, the Bush administration has said that neither top presidential adviser Karl Rove nor Libby was involved in identifying Valerie Plame, the covert CIA agent first named in a July 2003 article by syndicated columnist Robert Novak.

Last week, Rove, Bush's deputy chief of staff, was identified as a confidential source of Time reporter Matthew Cooper and that disclosure led to some Democrats calling for Rove's resignation while others pressed for the revocation of his security clearance. The disclosure also resulted in the White House no longer denying Rove's involvement and instead declining to comment because the matter is under investigation.

The partisan attacks are expected to continue this week with Libby -- a neoconservative and member of the team planning for the war -- being linked again to the story, and as Congress hears testimony backing a federal shield law to protect reporters from testifying about unnamed sources. It was reported last year that Libby waived a confidentiality agreement with Cooper, allowing him to give testimony, but the topic of their conversation was not known.

Republicans continued yesterday to defend Rove. Republican National Committee chairman Ken Mehlman, appearing on NBC's ''Meet the Press," argued that Rove learned of Plame's identity from journalists, and that Democrats are attacking Rove based on information that exonerates Rove. Mehlman said Democrats owe Rove an apology.

A lawyer familiar with Rove's grand jury testimony told the Associated Press yesterday that Rove learned about the CIA officer either from the media or from someone in government who said the information came from a journalist. The lawyer spoke on condition of anonymity because the federal investigation is continuing.

Also appearing on ''Meet the Press," John Podesta, chief of staff during the Clinton administration, said if Rove had ''an ounce of character," he would resign. ''Mr. Rove has created a tremendous credibility problem for this White House, for this president, for this country on a matter of utmost national security," he said. ''The one thing that is unassailable at the end of this week is that Mr. Rove did not tell the truth in 2003."

In a first-person article about his grand jury testimony in this week's issue of Time, Cooper said he called Rove about Joseph C. Wilson IV, author of a New York Times op-ed article on his mission to Niger in which he found no evidence that Saddam Hussein was trying to procure uranium to make nuclear weapons. The Bush administration justified going to war in Iraq as necessary to stop the spread of weapons of mass destruction, and Wilson's article said it twisted intelligence to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.

Critics of the administration have charged that Plame's cover was deliberately leaked as retribution for Wilson's article. Knowingly revealing the identity of covert personnel is a felony.

During the conversation with Rove, Cooper learned that Wilson's wife -- whom Rove did not name -- worked at the CIA on weapons of mass destruction and that she -- not Cheney -- was responsible for sending Wilson to Africa. Rove ended the call by saying he had ''already said too much," though Cooper was not sure what he meant.

The next day, Cooper repeated details gleaned from Rove to Libby. According to Cooper's article in this week's Time, Libby, speaking on the record, denied Cheney had any role in or knowledge of Wilson's trip to Niger. At one point, when the conversation was on background, Cooper asked about Wilson's wife sending her husband to Niger. ''Libby replied, 'Yeah, I've heard that, too,' or words to that effect," according to the article. His article reveals the ''microscopic, excruciating detail" sought by the grand jury and special prosecutor in his 2 1/2 hours of testimony Wednesday and echoes comments he made yesterday on news shows.

Meanwhile, investigators, in an effort to determine the source of the leak, are focusing on a 2003 State Department memo that details why Wilson was chosen for the trip and what role Plame played in his selection, according to reports in The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times.

Special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, who is investigating the leak, has focused on a classified memo and meeting notes sent by State Department officials to then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, the Los Angeles Times reported. The day after Wilson's op-ed article was published, Bush traveled to Africa on Air Force One. Powell, also on Air Force One, had a copy of the classified documents. The New York Times reported that Powell was walking around the aircraft with the memo in his hands. Cooper wrote that he first spoke to the special prosecutor in August 2004, giving ''limited testimony" in his attorney's office about his interview with Libby. ''Like Rove, Libby never used Valerie Plame's name or indicated that her status was covert, and he never told me that he had heard about Plame from other reporters," Cooper wrote.

Cooper's account of his grand jury testimony, which he gave last week, said Fitzgerald's questions hinted at the investigation's direction. ''He asked me several different ways if Rove indicated how he had heard that Plame worked at the CIA," Cooper wrote. ''(He did not, I told the grand jury.) Maybe Fitzgerald is interested in whether Rove knew her CIA ties through a person or through a document," Cooper wrote.

Cooper's notes and e-mail messages turned over to the special prosecutor by Time -- over the reporter's objections -- indicate that Rove told him ''material was going to be declassified in the coming days that would cast doubt on Wilson's mission and his findings." Speaking on ''Meet the Press," Cooper said there may have been government officials other than Rove and Libby who were sources for his article. Asked on CNN's ''Reliable Sources" about a third unnamed administration source, ''a policy person in Africa," Cooper declined comment.

Cooper wrote that sitting before the grand jury, which hears testimony in secret, he was struck by the mostly African-American, mostly female group and their inquisitiveness as they sat in black vinyl chairs and at desks ''as if it were a shabby classroom at a rundown college." Cooper and New York Times reporter Judith Miller fought such testimony to the Supreme Court. They lost. Miller remains jailed in Alexandria, Va.

Cooper wrote that he was surprised to be questioned extensively about welfare reform, a reporting topic he shelved in favor of the Wilson story. ''To me, this suggested that Rove may have testified that we had talked about welfare reform," Cooper wrote.

Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, declined comment yesterday.

This week, Cooper will testify before Congress on behalf of a federal shield law that could have helped him avoid testifying before the grand jury.

For the most part, Republicans have stood firm behind the White House. Yesterday, however, Representative Roy Blunt of Missouri, the third-ranking House Republican, appeared on CBS's ''Face the Nation." Responding to a question about the administration's previous denials of Rove's involvement, Blunt said the administration needs ''to be very thoughtful about what they say and be sure that their credibility is sustained."

Information from the Associated Press was used in this report.Diedtra Henderson can be reached at dhenderson@globe.com.

[TrailBate]

Not that it matters. THe right has moved beyond defending what happened, and gone straight to "it's no big deal. The democrats are making a mountain out of a molehill because they are anti-american and have no ideas, blah blah blah"

[truckboy]

These guys are still going to skate away unscathed. Unless of course another Deep Throat emerges or something like that. I don't know why, I just get a feeling. Maybe it's the Republican controlled Congress. The news just isn't making it a sensation, like Clinton's blow job. Maybe that's it, it's not sexy.

....my $.02

[Mr_Cheeze]

No, because all of this silly hand wringing is really just politics as usual. These guys - meaning those on the left - have such hatred for Bush and anybody associated with the administration. They want SO BADLY for someone to get caught doing something illegal. They want it so bad they can taste it. However, at least the way it looks at the moment, the only thing that Rove has done is to mention to Cooper that Wilson's wife was behind sending him to investigate the Iraqi/nuclear allegations. He didn't mention her name or that she was even covert. Cooper even admits that he, just as Rove says he found out, learned Plame's name from the Novak column. Did Rove still do something wrong? Perhaps, but not on the level that might be considered treasonous.

I know how disappointed you all must be. Then again, I also know that there will be enough denial to go around on both sides... at least until Bush finally names his Supreme Court nominee to push this story to the back pages.

Seems to me that the only person who should be questioned and forced to reveal his source is Mr. Novak. But no, everybody such a hard-on for outing the evil Republicans in some way... any way, that nobody is even talking about Novak and exactly how he came by his information.

[TrailBate]

Cheeze, how many wives do you think Wilson has?

he didn't have to mention her NAME, just her identity.

I find it sad that you dont' care that top administration officials leaked CIA's identities to further their own political agenda. It's sickening.

[Rych]

I heard that the way the law was written, you practically have to hang a sign on the back of an undercover agent saying "kick the CIA Agent here".

[Mr_Cheeze]

Sickening... oh---kay. ::)

How is it that you guys all seem to know the facts when nobody in the media even does. There is nothing that Cooper stated yesterday on Meet The Press that proves Mr. Rove is guilty of outing a known CIA covert agent. He admitted as much. And now Time is outing another source who also did not name any names before Novak did. That's not even to mention the question as to whether Ms. Plame could legally be considered covert having been six years removed from her operation.

So what do you know? I'll tell you. You know that Carl Rove's name was mentioned and that's enough to run with this ridiculous "see, we told you these guys were corrupt" nonsense. Bring me Novak's source and we'll talk.

[Slider]

That is not how Matt Cooper is recalling things. He says outright that Rove did the deed.

Slider

July 18, 2005
Reporter Says He First Learned of C.I.A. Operative From Rove
By LORNE MANLY and DAVID JOHNSTON
Matthew Cooper, a reporter for Time magazine, said the White House senior adviser Karl Rove was the first person to tell him that the wife of former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was a C.I.A. officer, according to a first-person account in this week's issue of the magazine.

The account also stated that Mr. Rove said Mr. Wilson's wife had played a role in sending Mr. Wilson to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq.

The article, a description of Mr. Cooper's testimony last Wednesday to a federal grand jury trying to determine whether White House officials illegally disclosed the identity of a covert intelligence officer, offered the most detailed account yet of how a White House official purportedly did not merely confirm what a journalist knew but supplied that information.

Mr. Cooper said in his article that Mr. Rove did not mention the name of Mr. Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson, or say that she was a covert officer. But, he wrote: "Was it through my conversation with Rove that I learned for the first time that Wilson's wife worked at the C.I.A. and may have been responsible for sending him? Yes. Did Rove say that she worked at the 'agency' on 'W.M.D.'? Yes.

"Is any of this a crime? Beats me."

The details in Mr. Cooper's article about his conversation with Mr. Rove are largely consistent with the broad outlines of Mr. Rove's grand jury testimony about the conversation as portrayed in news accounts.

But Mr. Cooper's article, a rare look inside the deliberations from a prime participant in this political and journalistic drama, is likely to add fuel to a political firestorm over whether there was a White House effort to disclose Ms. Wilson's identity as payback for her husband's criticism of the administration.

Mr. Rove's allies have said that he did not initiate any conversations with reporters and that he was merely warning them off what he said was faulty information. But White House statements over the past two years have left the impression that administration officials were not involved in identifying Ms. Wilson.

Mr. Cooper also wrote about a conversation he initiated with I. Lewis Libby, chief of staff for Vice President Dick Cheney. Although it has been known that reporters spoke to Mr. Libby, what he said was not known. His conversation with Mr. Cooper is the first indication that Mr. Libby was aware of Ms. Wilson's role in her husband's trip to Africa. When Mr. Cooper asked if Mr. Libby knew of that, Mr. Libby said he had heard that as well, the article said.

More on the NY Times site...

[BG]

Thanks, now it's perfectly clear. ???

BG

[Slider]

The Slider's Digest version follows:

"Mr. Cooper said in his article that Mr. Rove did not mention the name of Mr. Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson, or say that she was a covert officer. But, he wrote: "Was it through my conversation with Rove that I learned for the first time that Wilson's wife worked at the C.I.A. and may have been responsible for sending him? Yes. Did Rove say that she worked at the 'agency' on 'W.M.D.'? Yes."

All you need to know....

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

She worked at the agency... on WMD. That's what we know.

GUILTY

As Antoinette Jones would probably say, he's guilty as a mother fu**er, bitch!

::)

[Slider]

Rove told a reporter exactly that. Definitely guilty.

Apparently, the VP's minions were doing the same thing elsewhere. Also Guilty.

Both doing the same thing, at the same time? Conspiracy. And a lot more fun to watch unfold.

Slider

[TrailBate]

Did Cooper know that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA before he had his discussion with Rove? NO. Did he know it afterwards? Yes.

Considering it was the CIA who requested the investigation, considering George W said he'd fire anyone who leaked it, considering Bush Sr. called Wilson himself and told him how upset he was about the whole thing, I'd say the chances are pretty good this info was NOT suppose to be made public.

[truckboy]

It's not going to matter. The neocons are not going to let Karl Rove hang, or Cheney's boy either for that matter.

Cheeze, stop defending them. Your'e right, everybody's salivating at the possibility of ******* Rove as bad as they think he's ****** the country, but the outcome of the "investigation" won't necessarily tell the whole story. It'll be another one like Bush's service record and Dan Rather, where the truth is brought to light, but that will get buried under every possible piece of flak from the right wing media machine. An I want my taco an my dolla!

[Mr_Cheeze]

Hey, I don't need to defend anyone. Just stating what's been put out there. Some people think it's enough to fry Rove, mainly because they just want to see him fried. But it's not enough. That's all I'm saying. I'm no fan of these guys. I'm a fan of Antoinette Jones, baby! How to make $1.85 go a long way.

[Slider]

What part of TREASON and CONSPIRACY are you missing? Rove and one of the VPs flunkies talked, and witnesses are confirming that fact. They've stated it simply, and directly. Any other info is not from a primary source, and is speculative.

You are questioning the motives of those of us accusing the scum in the current administration of treason, while ignoring the simple, clear facts of the case. And that means our reasoning is somehow suspect? You need to do a reality check, Cheeze.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

Here is a well reasoned article sheeding some light on just how ridiculous this "scandal" has become.

http://nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200507180801.asp

[kernel crash]

"Here is a well reasoned article sheeding some light on just how ridiculous this "scandal" has become."

Well done Mr Cheeze. I was searching for this same article earlier today but had to break off because of, well work considerations. So what motives are behind Mr Wilson getting in front of the press at every opportunity to rail against this administration? Politics baby. Pure politics.

[Slider]

Rove trots out his dog and pony show in a pointed attempt to discredit a critic of the adminstration, revealing that the critic's wife as a CIA agent. At the same time, the VP sends his monkeys into the field to do the same thing. And this is not treason because some documents accidently went to Cuba previously?

This is blatant ********. Tell me - had you read the Cuban docs? How many people do you think read them? Did Novak write about them? Did the NYTimes? Newsweek? Not so far as I can tell.

How do we all now know that Valerie Plame was an undercover agent? The answer is really obvious, and it has nothing to do with CIA ineptitude, but with arrogant, petty, vindictive traitors like Rove.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"How do we all now know that Valerie Plame was an undercover agent?"

Actually Slider, the first I ever heard of it was when her husband went public claiming that someone outed his wife as a covert CIA agent!


I never read the cuban docs but that is not important. What's important is who else read those docs making her covert status a joke.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Rove trots out his dog and pony show in a pointed attempt to discredit a critic of the adminstration, revealing that the critic's wife as a CIA agent. At the same time, the VP sends his monkeys into the field to do the same thing. And this is not treason because some documents accidently went to Cuba previously?

This is blatant ********. Tell me - had you read the Cuban docs? How many people do you think read them? Did Novak write about them? Did the NYTimes? Newsweek? Not so far as I can tell.

How do we all now know that Valerie Plame was an undercover agent? The answer is really obvious, and it has nothing to do with CIA ineptitude, but with arrogant, petty, vindictive traitors like Rove.

Slider


Not so far as you can tell, eh? And you've done ALL the research? Tell us how much the DNC is paying you for your unbiased investigation?

The Cuban documents are beside the point, which is that politics and hate are all behind Rove getting shat upon. You can rail all you want, but that doesn't change what those who are looking at this clearly can plainly see... which is really obvious, yes. You want Rove, and by extension George W. Bush to take a fall over what looks to be a media created scandal, the REAL ********.

[TrailBate]

Wow, what a joke this article is. In the very first paragraph, the author calls the whole thing a "manufactured scandal", then says that it is "appropriate to withhold legal judgement until the investigation is complete", and then goes on to say why Rove is innocent!! The first paragraph alone is full of hypocrisy. Nevermind that it's all just an opinion piece Cheeze has decided to pass off as fact.

So what? We're suppose to believe Plame was no longer "covert" because Putin and Castro knew who she was!! Well, jeez, I guess that makes it "public knowledge" now, huh?

And the CIA, the very people who requested the investigation, are actually the ones who outed her!

Then, it goes on to cite how the media said "no crime was committed". What they were saying was NO JOURNALIST had committed a crime, so they believed none of them should be jailed. Besides, when are we now suppose to believe the media? Only when the Right sees fit?

Then we criticize Wilson for being all over the media about it? Hey, I would too. If I knew Bush was lying about WMD's, AND outed my wife, i'd be all over the media too.

Then the article goes on about when did Plame know she was outed? When did Wilson know? Last I heard, Plame was taken care of by the CIA as soon as they found out, and according to some former CIA agent, they began to try to cover her tracks.

Then the article says how people already knew Wilson had a wife, and there had even been pictures of her circulated. Yeah? So people knew he had a wife. DUH! Did they know she was a CIA agent? I don't think so.


Nice article cheeze. Next, why don't you post an op-ed by Rove himself.

[Slider]

Not so far as you can tell, eh? And you've done ALL the research? Tell us how much the DNC is paying you for your unbiased investigation?

Gee, Cheeze. I always figured you for a reactionary, but this sounds more like paranoia.

And what exactly would "all the research" be? My Googling shows no reference to the Cuban documents prior to the Novak column. Show me otherwise or STFU.


The Cuban documents are beside the point

Well, no. They are the point of McCarthy's story. He's claiming that the Cuban access to the docs that ID'd Plame creates a situation where her status is common knowledge. ********, unless I missed Fidel's full page ad in the Times.


You want Rove, and by extension George W. Bush to take a fall over what looks to be a media created scandal, the REAL ********.

While it is true that Rove is an amoral, lying, vindictive and petty excuse for a human being, it is only his treason that I wish to see punished. Bush's fall, if we are so lucky, will be gravy.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"He's claiming that the Cuban access to the docs that ID'd Plame creates a situation where her status is common knowledge. ********, unless I missed Fidel's full page ad in the Times. "

I think your missing the point. So what if the cab driver down the street never heard of the cuban docs. The fact that the Russian, Cuban and whatever other intellegence agency out there knew about it made her covert status null and void to the CIA. Maybe that's why she had a desk job the last 6 years.

[Slider]

Not true. The CIA initiated an investigation once it learned that Novak had published her name, because the Agency itself considered her to be undercover. They WOULD be the decision maker on that topic, yes?

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

Wow, what a joke this article is. In the very first paragraph, the author calls the whole thing a "manufactured scandal", then says that it is "appropriate to withhold legal judgement until the investigation is complete", and then goes on to say why Rove is innocent!! The first paragraph alone is full of hypocrisy. Nevermind that it's all just an opinion piece Cheeze has decided to pass off as fact.



Show me where I am presenting this article as more than a well reasoned opinion piece. I didn't. But no surprise that you and Slider find fault with it because it pokes a bunch of neat holes in the entire Rove part of the story.

But Slider does nicely make my point for me.

While it is true that Rove is an amoral, lying, vindictive and petty excuse for a human being, it is only his treason that I wish to see punished. Bush's fall, if we are so lucky, will be gravy.


And we're supposed to believe that your agenda is on the level. Please. You fool nobody with this faux self-righteousness. The hate is palpable. And when you make statements like ,"Did you read the documents", implying that either you did or that, because you fail to Google up any instance of them somehow proves their non-existence, you attempt to represent yourself as in the know when, in fact, all you do know is what your complicit left-biased media has given you for masturbatory material. I realize that the Internet is an excellent resource for knowledge, but it's not a cache of every bit of information and intelligence that can possibly be found. You guys are too often guilty of making your points with crap that is dug up from the bowels of agenda driven resources. I do it once and you hypocritically criticize it... which is why I did it!

But it's kind of funny seeing you guys become perturbed at the erosion of this so-called scandal. The continued failures by the anti-Bush media are abviously getting to you. First Dan Rather's disgrace, then Newsweek's, and now the entire bloc of the media's left, led by the New York Times and Time Magazine. But this won't stop it from happening again. I have faith that there will be another one sometime in the near future. Not because, as you will maintain, there is a bevy of immoral or amoral and sociopathic behavior within the Bush administration; but because the left will not rest until they get one of theirs back into office.

I really hope Mitt Romney runs for the Oval Office. Not because I want him to become President, but because I would love to see what the media tries to dig up on him.

[TrailBate]

Show me where I am presenting this article as more than a well reasoned opinion piece. I didn't. But no surprise that you and Slider find fault with it because it pokes a bunch of neat holes in the entire Rove part of the story.




It doesn't poke any holes in the Rove story. That's our point. I pointed out specific examples.

[truckboy]

Nothing changes the fact that the Bushies are dirty. They are the best in the business and have so far been able to slither out of all the tight spots they've been in. Karl Rove is not Amoral, he's Immoral to the core. Yes it's politics as usual. Yes the left is dirty too. These guys are worse. Digustingly so. They'll probably get out of this one too. Does anybody really think they WEREN'T behind the leak? Cheeze? Come on... be honest.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Well, since the leak seems to have unwittingly come from within the CIA some time ago, AND since Plame has been 6 years removed from her covert status, what is left except to wonder why everybody on the left is pigpiling on a bunch of questionable information.

But thank you for at least being honest enough to admit that the left plays just as dirty. They don't like it when somebody evokes the name of the sleazebag Clinton, as if his indiscretions were only limited to an on-the-job blowjob. I understand that's politics, though. My perceived defense of Rove if not so much that as it is revealing the hate driven agenda behind it all. They'll keep denying it, I realize. It's what they do.

[TrailBate]

Well, since the leak seems to have unwittingly come from within the CIA some time ago, AND since Plame has been 6 years removed from her covert status, what is left except to wonder why everybody on the left is pigpiling on a bunch of questionable information.

But thank you for at least being honest enough to admit that the left plays just as dirty. They don't like it when somebody evokes the name of the sleazebag Clinton, as if his indiscretions were only limited to an on-the-job blowjob. I understand that's politics, though. My perceived defense of Rove if not so much that as it is revealing the hate driven agenda behind it all. They'll keep denying it, I realize. It's what they do.


Cheeze, you are completely ignoring everything except for what the Right is telling you. Then you claim the op-ed you cited was just a well written opinion peice, then quote it is a fact.

Why did the CIA request the investigation? Who did Cooper learn her identity from (besides Castro and Putin, obviously ::)

Where are the WMD's? What did the Downing street memo say? There is so much evidence that shows the Bush administration lied, and bullied anyone who didnt' agree with them. Try putting 2 and 2 together for once.

And if you can defend this, and STILL go after Clinton's BJ, you are smoking some really good stuff, and you need to share.

[truckboy]

Whatever. These guys are dirtier than Clinton could ever hope to be. At least he tried to steer the country toward the 21st century .

I lurk on these threads a lot, and you and slider&trailbait aren't any different from eachother. You're just on different sides. Just like the pros in DC. You claim to be fighing against lefty agendas but always fall on the right in every discussion and sling righty agendas.

[truckboy]

My last post was for Mr. Cheeze.

It was obvious that the Bushies were doing exactly what TB described as they were doing it. All this discussion after the fact really should be "moot". You all lived it, wasn't it obvious? Isn't it still? We've all been around long enough to recognize a setup, a lie and playground bullying. Christ, we all learned that **** in grade school social situations. Don't Believe the HYPE....You guys are smarter than that!!!

Even you, Monsieur Fromage!

[kernel crash]

"Consider: 500 tons of yellowcake stored at Saddam's old nuclear weapons plant, where he'd managed to partially enrich 1.8 tons. And the equipment and blueprints that could enrich enough uranium to make a bomb stored away for safekeeping. And all of it at the Iraqi dictator's disposal.

If the average American were aware of these undisputed facts, the debate over Iraq's weapons of mass destruction would have been decided long ago - in President Bush's favor.

One more detail that Mr. Wilson and his media backers don't like to discuss: There's a reason Niger was such a likely candidate for Saddam's uranium shopping spree.

Responding to the firestorm that erupted after Wilson's July 2003 column, Prime Minister Tony Blair told reporters:

"In case people should think that the whole idea of a link between Iraq and Niger was some invention, in the 1980s we know for sure that Iraq purchased round about 270 tons of uranium from Niger.""


http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/7/17/171214.shtml

[Mr_Cheeze]

Tsk tsk.... citing from Newsmax. Bad bad.

Truckboy, I do happen to come down on the right in this discussion, because I think that it's obvious that the left and the left driven media are all out to crucify Rove and Bush any way they can. I have read both sides of the issue and frankly find the argument in defense of Rove or against Joe Wilson to be better reasoned. That's all. I really do not care to continue stating that I am no Bush backer. Do not make the mistake of assuming that one issue decides one's political stance.

[truckboy]

Whatever. Your history of posts precedes you. I'm not making any assumptions based on this thread. You want to believe in Bush as much as any body here wants to see him brought down.
It's ok. At least you have the courage of your convictions and you make some good points. I just want you to come out of the closet. I know it can't be easy in such a right-bashing forum.

[Slider]

And we're supposed to believe that your agenda is on the level. Please. You fool nobody with this faux self-righteousness. The hate is palpable. And when you make statements like ,"Did you read the documents", implying that either you did or that, because you fail to Google up any instance of them somehow proves their non-existence, you attempt to represent yourself as in the know when, in fact, all you do know is what your complicit left-biased media has given you for masturbatory material. I realize that the Internet is an excellent resource for knowledge, but it's not a cache of every bit of information and intelligence that can possibly be found. You guys are too often guilty of making your points with crap that is dug up from the bowels of agenda driven resources. I do it once and you hypocritically criticize it... which is why I did it!

Wow! That is an impressive load of crap, even coming from you, Cheeze. I never implied that I read the Cuban docs. On the contrary, my point was that virtually no one did. Well, other than Fidel. It appears you have no clue on this point, though, so I don't know how far to go trying to show you that you make no sense.

You say pointedly, to me, "And you've done ALL the research?" In response, I told you what research I did, which was to Google the relevant key words, where I can find no reference to those mis-sent docs prior to Novak's column. Which, to help you connect the dots, undermines the idea that Plame's covert status was already blown. Beyond that, the CIA themselves considered her to be covert, and indicated that when they initiated the investigation after Novak's column came out. Yet again, you somehow manage to ignore that fact and state, baselessly, that "Plame has been 6 years removed from her covert status" Well, that is simply untrue. Typical of your approach to "argument", you place an unsupported claim as if it was fact, and then head on to your rant. There's no reason here, just blowhard opinion.


But it's kind of funny seeing you guys become perturbed at the erosion of this so-called scandal. The continued failures by the anti-Bush media are abviously getting to you. First Dan Rather's disgrace, then Newsweek's, and now the entire bloc of the media's left, led by the New York Times and Time Magazine. But this won't stop it from happening again. I have faith that there will be another one sometime in the near future. Not because, as you will maintain, there is a bevy of immoral or amoral and sociopathic behavior within the Bush administration; but because the left will not rest until they get one of theirs back into office.

This is "straw man" garbage at its finest. I don't give a **** about Newsweek, Dan Rather, or any other reference you assign as important to me. Unlike you, I take a critical approach to any source material. If I offer it here, I substantiate it, or at least qualify it. You, on the other hand, offer slurs as if it mattered since they are your opinion. You need lots more than that to make a point. Unlike you, Trailbait and I have offered substantiation and reasoning when we make a point. You simply rant.

Your offering of that New Republic opinion piece is representative. It is full of holes, but you don't even bother to address those when they are pointed out. When you realize, having been shown by countering arguments, that it was a load of ****, you attempt to distance yourself from it. YOU POSTED IT! You're a moving target, just like Bush and his pronouncements about how he'll deal with the responsible parties in this very-far-from-eroding scandal.

But the bottom line is that we have a treasonous administration, willing to undermine the security of our country in search of personal and political gain. Bush and his henchmen are, purely and simply, Evil with a capital E. That case has been made here. Your, apparently differing opinion, has not.

Slider

[TrailBate]

Truckboy, I do happen to come down on the right in this discussion, because I think that it's obvious that the left and the left driven media are all out to crucify Rove and Bush any way they can. I have read both sides of the issue and frankly find the argument in defense of Rove or against Joe Wilson to be better reasoned.

eh? better reasoned? Cooper did not know Plame's identity until he talked to Rove. This is a fact. Wilson criticized Bush's WMD claims. This is a fact. No WMD's, or link to any, were found in Iraq. This is a fact.

Whether or not Plame's identity was still classified appears to be up to debate still. But like I said before, considering how Bush Sr was so upset about it, considering George W pretended to be so upset about it, considering Wilson and Plame are so upset about it, and considering the CIA requested and got an investigation into it, all supports the allegations that a serious leak was committed.

All the RIght is left with is "yeah, well, Wilson gave Kerry's campaign money, and was out to get Bush from the beginning, and the media is anti-Bush, so it's obviously all made up." THIS is not a fact. It's a stupid opinion, one you have decided to cling on to.

If Rove is so innocent, he and all the rest of the Bush Mafia should come right out and say "yeah, I told people about Plame, but she was not classified, so it's no big deal."

[Slider]

This Modern World sums up the admin's solutions for the Rove treason nicely:

http://www.workingforchange.com/printitem.cfm?itemid=19366

Slider

[TrailBate]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/20/cia.leak.ap/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8635385/


So, the facts are that Plame's identity WAS secret, Rove leaked it to Cooper, and former CIA agents believe the leak has done some damage.

Yet Republicans continue to defend him. NOW who is damaging national security?

[Slider]

Yep, Rove, Cheney and Bush are traitors. Straight out. The only question is whether this chicken-**** Senate has the balls to come to the defense of the country.

Slider

[truckboy]

They won't. It's only national security, not a BJ in the oval office.

[FriedRys]

I think this sums things up nicely

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=374

[Slider]

I'll hold off on buying my T-shirt until the impeachment trial starts.

Slider

[kernel crash]

Slider, If you really believe there will be an impeachment trial, then I got a Shimano bio-pace chainring with exarge parts I want to sell you.

[Mr_Cheeze]

[quote author=Slider

http://xfiles.wearehere.net/images/office.jpg

Slider

[Slider]

Can't say that I expect impeachment to happen. Rove knows too much about too many. The Senate won't be able to pull the trigger on the President, because the many Republicans that are there through Rove's help won't have the balls to throw the switch.

But I think the groundswell may take Rove himself down. He committed the most egregious act that can happen within a president's staff. Treason is not a blowjob, and enough Americans know that. I say Rove takes a fall.

Now, the VP is another story, and he'd be the route that might actually reach the oval office. I wouldn't bet that it will happen, but it could. And should.

Slider

[truckboy]

Karl Rove, Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney are PATRIOTS!

[Rych]

Who says the media is left bias?

Veteran wire reporter Helen Thomas is vowing to 'kill herself' if Dick Cheney announces he is running for president.

The newspaper HILL first reported the startling claim on Thursday.

MORE

"The day Dick Cheney is going to run for president, I'll kill myself," she told the HILL. "All we need is one more liar."

Thomas added, "I think he'd like to run, but it would be a sad day for the country if he does."

[TrailBate]

Yep, and I'm sure that claim has as much truth to it as Bush and Mclellan saying they'd fire anyone connected to the Plame leak.


Actually, a few nights ago, Ann Coulter was on Hannity & Colmes, and said that Bush should appoint a more extreme judge because "we have the media now." So now all you right wingers can stop complaining about the liberal media, because according to Ann (who always tells the truth) the media is now officially conservative.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Yea, and Hillary Clinton is a moderate, too.

[slapheadmofo]

http://www.whitehouse.org/

Didn't know if you guys had already run across this site, but if you haven't you may get a kick out of it.

;D