Boston Globe Propaganda at its worst

[Mr_Cheeze]

Militias' era all but over, analysts say
By Brian MacQuarrie, Globe Staff | April 19, 2005

Ten years after Timothy McVeigh detonated a truck bomb that killed 168 people at the Oklahoma City federal building, the antigovernment militias that attracted intense police scrutiny after the bombing have all but disappeared, according to analysts who track the groups.

''There really are no groups out there now doing paramilitary training," said Mark Potok, who monitors the militias for the Southern Poverty Law Center. From a high of 858 militias and other antigovernment groups in 1996, the number withered to 152 in 2004, Potok said.

The deaths of innocent civilians -- including 19 children -- in the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building a decade ago today began the steep decline in the membership of grass-roots militias that had multiplied after deadly sieges by federal agents in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992 and Waco, Texas, in 1993.

Analysts also said the decline was accelerated by the successful prosecution of militia members across the country on weapons and financial fraud charges in a federal crackdown, and the fact that none of the anticipated catastrophes from computer failures actually occurred on Jan. 1, 2000.

''The last blow was Y2K," said Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism, based at California State University in San Bernardino. ''When the world didn't go to hell in a handbasket, these people were stuck with a stockpile of bread, cheese, and bottled water."

Although militia membership has shrunk dramatically, observers said, the number of what they describe as race-based ''hate groups" that do not engage in paramilitary training has increased steadily. The Southern Poverty Law Center, based in Montgomery, Ala., reported 762 such groups existed in 2004, compared with 474 in 1997.

Anger over immigration and globalization has helped fuel this growth, analysts said, among people who see a grave threat to the American way of life, which they see in racial terms. Their appeals to hatred have found a home on the Internet.

''The Net has allowed these [hate-based] movements to transform themselves from organized movements that had geographic centers into diffuse, localized movements where people script their own version of hatred," Levin said. ''It's really across the spectrum."

Despite a law enforcement crackdown that has uncovered dozens of major domestic terrorism plots since the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City, Potok said, an attack that originates in a militia is inevitable. ''The hardest-edged groups are in quite an unstable situation," he said. ''And it's often in these situations that we see outbursts of criminal violence."

Last month, the FBI discovered explosives hidden in the former Kansas home of Terry Nichols, who is serving multiple life sentences for his role in the bombing. McVeigh was executed in 2001. An imprisoned mobster had provided a tip that the explosives might be used for an attack to coincide with the Oklahoma City anniversary.

''What we have left is this hardened core of extremely hateful individuals who now have access to both the folklore of the movement and, more important, the operating instructions," Levin said. ''The number of dangerous people is much less, but their commitment and their ability to carry out terror attacks is as great as it's ever been."

But the sight of the self-styled militias conducting field drills with weapons has become rare.

Kellysue Thomson, a commander in the Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines, which was investigated after the bombing, said the Oklahoma City attack had a dramatic effect on that organization.

''A lot of people went underground after the Oklahoma City bombing," recalled Thomson, who said that Nichols falsely claimed membership in the Michigan Militia. Neither was McVeigh found to be an active member of any militia, but he circulated in their orbit, attending dozens of gun shows.

Of coconspirators McVeigh and Nichols, she said: ''They were nasty. Obviously, what kind of people would do something like that?"

But Thomson said she can understand why the attack by federal agents near Waco, where an estimated 80 people died after a 51-day siege, and Ruby Ridge, where white separatist Randy Weaver's wife and son were killed by an FBI sniper, had prompted McVeigh to act. Deputy US Marshal William Degan from Quincy, Mass., also was killed in the Idaho standoff.

''It was the government that killed those people, and everybody believes that," Thomson said of the fire that destroyed the Branch Davidian compound near Waco.

These days, Thomson said, the Michigan Militia spends much of its time on ''homeland security" preparations, providing training on how to survive a terrorist attack by foreign perpetrators. ''What we do out here is we are prepared to defend ourselves if martial law or anything like that occurs," she said. ''Basically, what I work on is making sure that in case of a terrorist attack or a natural disaster, you're prepared to stay in your home for three to seven days or flee."

Despite their recent growth, hate-based groups have in the last few years lost several prominent leaders, losses that spurred the turn to the Internet as an organizing tool. Jeff Weise, the Minnesota teenager who killed nine people and himself on an Indian reservation last month, had been attracted to an Internet site that glorified Nazi ideology.

Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center cited the death of William Pierce, leader of the National Alliance, a white supremacist group, in 2002, and the 2004 death of Richard Butler, who founded the Aryan Nations. In addition, Matthew Hale, who founded the white supremacist World Church of the Creator, was sentenced April 6 to 40 years in prison for soliciting a hit man to kill a federal judge. The judge's husband and mother were murdered in February in Chicago by a man not connected to the movement.

A plethora of such race-focused sites can be found on the Internet, including one marking its 10th anniversary as the first ''white nationalist" website. The site, which hosts discussions with white supremacist David Duke six times a week, has about 47,000 registered members, Levin said.

''The gift of the Internet meant an alternative to the controlled news media," said website administrator Don Black in a message on the site. ''And we continue to grow, transforming an online community into real-world activism."

Another race-based site is the Internet home of the White Aryan Resistance. Although the site prominently features a skull and the movement's initials W.A.R., founder Thomas Metzger said that calling his white separatist group a ''hate" organization is wrong.

''We don't want to kill anybody. We just want to be separate," Metzger, who lives in Fallbrook, Calif., said in an interview. ''I don't promote violence as a normal part of our activity, but I would not shrink from violence if it came between us and people trying to destroy us.

''I'm proud to be a racist," he continued, ''one who believes in the best interests of his race."

The racist appeal, Potok said, often finds a receptive home among people who see a dangerous loss of sovereignty in globalization and immigration. ''If there's a debate about national security, immigration, or religion, this is going to be twisted and contorted in the hate world," Levin said. ''It's always a contorted carnival-mirror reflection."



© Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company



I couldn't believe my eyes upon reading this ******** this morning. "Hate groups" What exactly, according to the Boston Globe, is a "Hate Group", "...organizations known to be active in criminal acts, marches, rallies, speeches, meetings, leafleting or publishing..." Talk about using a term liberally! publishing!! Is it any wonder that their number is so high? Gee willikers, militias are down, but hate groups are thriving? By their definition, the Arizona militia that is using peaceful means to look out for illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican/US border is a hate group. Of course, this is exactly what they are getting at. The only surprise is that they don't include Republicans in the number, as much as many Liberals would like to do just that.

Look, I wouldn't deny for a second that there are indeed real hate groups that use the internet to propagate their messages. Aryian brotherhoods, Neo-Nazis, White Supremecists. But what exactly is their point here? That the internet is bad? They find one guy in Michigan with links to hate based websites on his computer and... hey, better put that one on the map!

And the Globe wonder why their circulation is dropping. Maybe because people are tired of such drivel.

[truckboy]

I think you're hateful enough to be your own hate group.

[Slider]

I couldn't believe my eyes upon reading this ******** this morning. "Hate groups" What exactly, according to the Boston Globe, is a "Hate Group", "


Well, if you actually READ the article, The Globe isn't defining "hate groups" at all, the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism, and the Southern Poverty Law Center are. The Globe is quoting them.

I understand exactly what they mean when they call the Arayan Nation or W.A.R "hate groups." It seems so clear as to be transparent. What exactly are you objecting to?

As far as the Internet thing, seems like a valid observation to me, and one perfectly relevant to the story. Less marching, more Internet chat. There was no condemnation of that migration, just an observation that also happens to apply to many affinity groups.


And the Globe wonder why their circulation is dropping. Maybe because people are tired of such drivel.


Um, all newspapers are losing readers. Why? Well that same Internet migration that you find irrelevant.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

As I stated, I didn't object to defining those particular organizations that are clearly and unobjectionably hate groups. But they offer no interpretation other than this vague definition of "hate group" by which they arrived at the number of qualifying entities as displayed on the graph. Are we supposed to just believe the Globe and the Southern Poverty Law Center when they tell us that these numbers are what they are, and that's that?

The Souther Poverty Law Center has a good track record of seeking justice in the area of civil rights, vis-a-vis hate groups. Their agenda I do not question. But the Boston Globe is another story altogether, as their obvious intent is to group all militias together with hate groups. This is my objection, which I thought I made fairly clear. This all upon the heels of and amid the clamoring by the left over the actions by the Arizona border watch militia, Minuteman Project. The implication is that these people are all racists because they wish to protect our borders.

While not implicitely stated in the article, this is exactly where the Globe is taking aim. The SPLC figures were convenient for them to cite. Sure, I'm taking a leap, but when you look at the numbers, it's not exactly a long one. Almost five hundred "hate groups" that fall under this umbrella of "organizations known to be active in criminal acts, marches, rallies, speeches, meetings, leafleting or publishing." This definition does not exclude militias, which they claim to be diminished in number since Waco. Add the Patriot Act into that and you're putting yourself in jeopardy if you organize for anything while being armed. That being said, a militia is not necessarily a hate group. And therein lies my objection to this article. It reeks of anti-Patriotism, which is par for the course for the Boston Globe. Its typical left-wing garbage, and ironically hateful in and of itself of anyone who believes in protecting America's borders and/or protecting themselves by exercising their right to bear arms.

As for the Globe's lessening circulation, yes, it has much to do with the internet and other media outlets, like talk radio. They no longer have a monopoly on opinion in this area, and that hurts them because now more people can hear other sides of arguments and conclude that the Globe has an obvious agenda that they choose not to help pay for. That and the disappointing fact that less people are reading anything nowadays does not bode well for the print media, in general. Perhaps if they made a sincere attempt to be more balanced, things might look more rosy for their circulation.

[TrailBate]

I don't see what the argument is about. Somebody wrote an article on the anniversary of Waco and the Oklahoma bombings, and somehow it is an anti-patriotic article against the right to bear arms? Somebody picked the wrong time to stop sniffing glue.

[Slider]

Yeah, Cheeze, you lost me, too. No mention of those border patrol whackos, just stuff about the specific groups tracked by SPLC.

Declining readership of hard copy has nothing to do with declining influence. I mean, where did you read the story? I am kinda doubting that you subscribe for home delivery.

This is simply part of the changing landscape. Content is still king and the Globe's of the world generate it. Bloggers are bloggers, and I and a lot like me choose not to wade through unsubstantiated, unattributed crap. I know the source of the facts behind the Globe story, because they cite them. They can be verified, whether you agree with the interpretation or not.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

I am attempting to branch out the concept fo rthe sake of discussion; but okay, I'll make it simple for you. Do you or do you not group or define militias amongst those "hate groups" as the Globe and the SPLC obviously do. Their inference is clear in the first two paragraphs. Why include data about militias in an article about hate groups? Were the Branch Davidians a hate group? By this broad definition, yes. But were they really more than a well armed cult? What about the Minuteman Project? Hate group?

[TrailBate]

It just looks to me like the article is saying there are fewer militias, and more hate groups. More likely, I think, is that the internet has given hate groups more media access, and therefore it just looks like there are more of them.

btw, if the Globe is losing readership, it's probably because articles like this one are just boring and pointless.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Nevermind what you think the article is about. I'm posing a very specific question.

[MTBME]

"What about the Minuteman Project? Hate group?"

NO. Just fed up concerned American citizens. If I lived down there, I'd be out there with them.

[TrailBate]

Nevermind what you think the article is about. I'm posing a very specific question.


what? You still haven't answered my True-False question..

Minuteman project a hate group? Some of them, yes. Others, no. Some I'm sure hate mexicans. Some believe that illegal aliens are taxing the government. Some believe they should just stay in their own country and try to fix it. Some are duped into believing that the illegal aliens are taking away jobs that these minutemen might like to have.

Notice I actually answered your question with something other than "moot".

[kernel crash]

I noticed you gave just about every possible answer available. The bottom line is the illegal aliens are breaking the law. Otherwise we wouldn't be calling them illegal.

[TrailBate]

I noticed you gave just about every possible answer available. The bottom line is the illegal aliens are breaking the law. Otherwise we wouldn't be calling them illegal.



would it be better to generalize, or to be accurate? Who am I to label all of them "hate groups"? A lot of people are doing illegal things, that doesn't mean everyone should be out there sitting in lawn chairs with shotguns.

[Slider]

So are pedophile priests, but I don't see any militias chasing them down. The militia is definitely rascist at heart, and operates under a mantle of, I suppose, some misguided notion of national defense. It is vigilantism, and that can only go bad places.

Besides - who else will pick our crops unders less than humane conditions? I bet few farmers are among those whackos. They understand the role the illegals play in the economy.

We have institutions in place to deal with immigration. The militia is a bunch of frustrated GI Joes with a skewed sense of their place in the world. If they didn't have Mexicans to chase around, they'd find someone else to scapegoat.

I bet ANY Hispanics they meet get nasty treatment. And there are none among them except by the bad luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"that doesn't mean everyone should be out there sitting in lawn chairs with shotguns. "

If you lived on that border you might feel differently. Bush's pandering to the Latino population and to Vincente Fox is nothing short of disgusting. Homeland security has to start at home. I give a lot of credit to these patriots that are calling attention to a problem that this administration has no real plan to deal with.

[kernel crash]

"The militia is definitely rascist"

So that's it. You know that for a fact! You will paint them all with the same brush? That's not very credible on your part. I think you can do better than that.

[CouchingTiger]

What militia? Like the reinactment colonial militia? Or is it talking about the "Pho Que Wang Militia" or the "Sasquatch Militia"? I'm confused.

-Couch

[TrailBate]

"The militia is definitely rascist"

So that's it. You know that for a fact! You will paint them all with the same brush? That's not very credible on your part. I think you can do better than that.


wait a minute. You criticize me for NOT generalizing, and you're criticizing this answer because they ARE generalizing? Make up yer friggin mind.

[TrailBate]

"that doesn't mean everyone should be out there sitting in lawn chairs with shotguns. "

If you lived on that border you might feel differently. Bush's pandering to the Latino population and to Vincente Fox is nothing short of disgusting. Homeland security has to start at home. I give a lot of credit to these patriots that are calling attention to a problem that this administration has no real plan to deal with.


if these "patriots" want to go after the real problems, they should be sitting on street corners where crack is sold to kids, or better yet, sit outside the White House.

[Slider]

They're sitting at the border chasing Mexicans, and that is not racist? Seems to me the case would have to be made the other way first.

I'm editing this part after I made this post. The subject of this topic is defninitely unrelated to the current direction. The Globe in no way addressed this in their story. The question of whether the militia is a "hate group" is probably not a clear as it is for, say, White Aryan Resistance, whose charter is explicit on who they hate, complete with a twisted logic on why. The border militia, on the other hand, can hide behind "patriotism" to use Cheeze's term. The point is that is ********, and an excuse to chase non-whites around with guns.

I never read their charter, just some coverage of what they're doing, and it sure sounds like a bunch of morons on a power trip.

Slider

[kernel crash]

" wait a minute. You criticize me for NOT generalizing"

Actually I wasn't doing that at all. I was just making an observation about a possible bias in your response. That the tone of your answer about Americans being "duped" or "hating" Mexicans tended to put a negative spin on why these people would behave like that. I know you didn't accuse all of them of that but you noticibly left out answers like they are doing what they feel is right for their country. They are tired of the illegals taxing the medical resources in the border communities, etc. etc.

[kernel crash]

"They're sitting at the border chasing Mexicans"

You think it is only Mexicans crossing the border illegally? Not these days. There coming from everywhere. So your racist claims regarding Mexicans doesn't hold up.

[TrailBate]

" wait a minute. You criticize me for NOT generalizing"

Actually I wasn't doing that at all. I was just making an observation about a possible bias in your response. That the tone of your answer about Americans being "duped" or "hating" Mexicans tended to put a negative spin on why these people would behave like that. I know you didn't accuse all of them of that but you noticibly left out answers like they are doing what they feel is right for their country. They are tired of the illegals taxing the medical resources in the border communities, etc. etc.


we would all like to whip out shotguns whenever we feel we need to, but that does not "help the counrty." If these people are pissed about the economy and healthcare, they are barking up the wrong tree.

[Slider]

"They're sitting at the border chasing Mexicans"

You think it is only Mexicans crossing the border illegally? Not these days. There coming from everywhere. So your racist claims regarding Mexicans doesn't hold up.


Yeah? Show me some numbers. And whatever basis you have for calling me racist.

Slider

[TrailBate]

What if all the Mexicans crossing the border looked like Salma Hayek?

[Mr_Cheeze]

The border militia, on the other hand, can hide behind "patriotism" to use Cheeze's term. The point is that is ********, and an excuse to chase non-whites around with guns.

I never read their charter, just some coverage of what they're doing, and it sure sounds like a bunch of morons on a power trip.

Slider




Well, now if that were true, or if you were actually paying attention, then you would know that these patriots (not my term, but I agree with it) are not using shotguns but binoculars to seek out offenders and reporting their finds to the Border Patrol. And it's easy for you to sit in your comfy chair and call those people racists when you don't have to deal with the all of the consequences surrounding poor, homeless, and unskilled people placing a blight upon the economies of those areas upon where they descend.

So the I guess you agree with the Globe when you categorize militias as hate groups. No, I'm not surprised. It was the answer I was fully expecting to see. You can deny that the Globe implied as such, but you would be wrong. They make a clear connection by citing the "good" news that the number of militias are down, but that they now have to work underground by using the internet to spread their messages along with the other, more obvious, hate groups.

Here's one for you to look at. Militia Of Montana (http://www.militiaofmontana.com/). Please explain to me how this is a racist organization, or even why the message they preach is in any way dangerous.

[bdee]

It's too damn bad for the Native Americans that they didn't have a border patrol like these "patriots". I guess then we'd all be in our respective homelands right now bitching about the cost of petrol if they did.

BTW - if everyone crossing that border looked like Selma Hayek I'd be there tomorrow.

[Slider]

Absolutely true - I was/am not paying too close attention, mostly because, of all the problems this country faces, illegal aliens is not among the most important. Do you understand that they are a major part of what puts food on your table, cleans your office bathroom, and takes care of many of those other things you and I would not consider? Far from a blight, they are a key, contributing component.

The milita aren't patriots, they're racists with a misguided concept of how an economy works. Again - you won't find a farmer among them, for clear reason.

As for other militias, sorry, not interested. We're a nation of immigrants, and it's what makes us strong. And, in a global sense, more community is what we need, not less.

Slider

[TrailBate]

Well, now if that were true, or if you were actually paying attention, then you would know that these patriots (not my term, but I agree with it) are not using shotguns but binoculars to seek out offenders and reporting their finds to the Border Patrol. And it's easy for you to sit in your comfy chair and call those people racists when you don't have to deal with the all of the consequences surrounding poor, homeless, and unskilled people placing a blight upon the economies of those areas upon where they descend.

If these people have the time to sit in their chairs all day, I doubt the economy is pressing on them too much. And what about all the white, homeless, poor, unskilled people?

So the I guess you agree with the Globe when you categorize militias as hate groups. No, I'm not surprised. It was the answer I was fully expecting to see. You can deny that the Globe implied as such, but you would be wrong. They make a clear connection by citing the "good" news that the number of militias are down, but that they now have to work underground by using the internet to spread their messages along with the other, more obvious, hate groups.

what exactly is the beef here? That the Globe is saying the internet is bad? Or that they're generalizing "hate groups"?

[TrailBate]

btw, some of them ARE armed.

and one of them was kicked off the project for sharing a bowl of cereal with an illegal immigrant. It's on their website.

[Rych]

What if all the Mexicans crossing the border looked like Salma Hayek?


Anyone see the unfunny NBC show "the Office"? The show realy does $uk, but there was one funny quote from the office manager talking to one of his mexican workers:

“Is there a less offensive term for your people than ‘Mexican’?”

The look on the mexican face was priceless.

[kernel crash]

"And whatever basis you have for calling me racist."

Actually I never called you a racist. I was refering to your point that those involved with the border patrol are Mexican hating racist. If all nationalities are crossing the border, than your statement as mentioned above, doesn't hold up.

[Mr_Cheeze]

... And what about all the white, homeless, poor, unskilled people?





Maybe we can trade them for all of those cabbage pickers and office cleaners that are propping up our economy. Let's send our ungrateful trash to Mexico for their grateful trash. Seems like a good deal to me.

[TrailBate]

so how many times have you heard about an american that couldn't get a job because an illegal alien already had it? Who has been denied health care because an illegal alien has over-taxed the system? why aren't farmers and business owners (hotels) out there keeping out illegal aliens? Why exactly are these people trying to keep out mexicans? You act like these people come across the border, take high paying jobs, steal money, rape women, then go back into mexico, laugh about it, and talk their buddies into coming up and doing the same.
In the big scheme of things, illegal immigration is a tiny problem. Where is the militia protecting our northern borders from canadiens?

[Slider]

"And whatever basis you have for calling me racist."

Actually I never called you a racist. I was refering to your point that those involved with the border patrol are Mexican hating racist. If all nationalities are crossing the border, than your statement as mentioned above, doesn't hold up.

Well, this sentence was a little vague: "So your racist claims regarding Mexicans doesn't hold up."

But back to the numbers. I don't think I've ever seen figures on non-Mexican illegal immigrants coming through our southern border. Got any info on that?

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

so how many times have you heard about an american that couldn't get a job because an illegal alien already had it? Who has been denied health care because an illegal alien has over-taxed the system? why aren't farmers and business owners (hotels) out there keeping out illegal aliens? Why exactly are these people trying to keep out mexicans? You act like these people come across the border, take high paying jobs, steal money, rape women, then go back into mexico, laugh about it, and talk their buddies into coming up and doing the same.
In the big scheme of things, illegal immigration is a tiny problem. Where is the militia protecting our northern borders from canadiens?


Who, exactly, is "acting" like anything? The beef is that these people are illegal aliens. It is the open flouting of immigration laws that is the real issue. You want to talk about numbers, slider? What would you say is the percentage of illegal Mexican immigranst versus any other nationality? Are we just supposed to open our southern border because farmers and hotel owners need people willing to get paid $2 an hour under the table, because these poor, destitute people deserve our help? OF COURSE the farmers aren't helping!! DUH!!! God forbid they have to pay someone the minimum wage to vaccuum hallways - a minimum wage, I might add, that happens to be a Democrat incurred legislation. But it's okay if farmers want to use the illegal-alien-loophole to pay people less than that because these poor people are just grateful to be anywhere other than Mexico. I challenge you to find me any numbers that show the majority of citizens in Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and California support keeping an open Mexican border. Show me where they feel they need these people so that they can buy lettuce at $0.99 a pound. Like I said before, it's easy for a Massachusetts liberal to side with the illegals, because they don't have to live with them.

And never mind how much they tax the economy. That any of my taxes, I don't care if it's .00017% of my share, goes toward helping criminals break the law, is, prima facia, wrong.

How ironic that those of you who defend the so-called rights of criminal Mexican aliens happen to be on the exact same side as our very own President on this issue.

[kernel crash]

To put this problem in proper perspective, INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) only posts statistics for illegal immigrants apprehended along 205 miles of the U.S.-Mexico Rio Grande border known as the Del Rio Sector. This leaves 1800 miles unaccounted for and obviously does not include illegals who slip through undetected. This figure is estimated to be as much as eight times higher than those apprehended!

In 1999, INS captured 156,656 illegal aliens. These were all Mexicans except 4,799 listed as "others". Through just July of this year, 132,007 illegal Mexicans had been apprehended, plus another 5,640 "others". Extrapolating from the number of immigrants who slip through this border and elude authorities, America would have at least 1.25 million people entering the country illegally at the Southern border. Think how this number magnifies when the borders along New Mexico, Arizona and California are added!

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/mexican-border.html

[kernel crash]

""Well, this sentence was a little vague: "So your racist claims regarding Mexicans doesn't hold up." "

My apologies. I meant to say your claims of racism...

[Mr_Cheeze]

To put this problem in proper perspective, INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) only posts statistics for illegal immigrants apprehended along 205 miles of the U.S.-Mexico Rio Grande border known as the Del Rio Sector. This leaves 1800 miles unaccounted for and obviously does not include illegals who slip through undetected. This figure is estimated to be as much as eight times higher than those apprehended!

In 1999, INS captured 156,656 illegal aliens. These were all Mexicans except 4,799 listed as "others". Through just July of this year, 132,007 illegal Mexicans had been apprehended, plus another 5,640 "others". Extrapolating from the number of immigrants who slip through this border and elude authorities, America would have at least 1.25 million people entering the country illegally at the Southern border. Think how this number magnifies when the borders along New Mexico, Arizona and California are added!

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/mexican-border.html



Yes, but all of that is okay because the the hotel owners and farmers and estate owners and gas stations need these people to circumvent those terrible minimum wage requirements by which they would have to pay the spoiled Americans who could be doing these slave jobs.

[Slider]

I thought we were talking about the militias, and whether they are racist. Using Kernel's stats, they're definitely out chasing Mexicans.

Since the illegals are clearly finding jobs, they are helping the economy by filling jobs you and I would not take. If they're so worried about "flouting" the law, they could be at least as useful writing down the plate numbers of speeders on the interstates. They choose chasing Mexicans for a specific reason that seems obvious.

Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just make it legal for them to work here?

Slider

[TrailBate]

Who, exactly, is "acting" like anything? The beef is that these people are illegal aliens. It is the open flouting of immigration laws that is the real issue. You want to talk about numbers, slider? What would you say is the percentage of illegal Mexican immigranst versus any other nationality? Are we just supposed to open our southern border because farmers and hotel owners need people willing to get paid $2 an hour under the table, because these poor, destitute people deserve our help? OF COURSE the farmers aren't helping!! DUH!!! God forbid they have to pay someone the minimum wage to vaccuum hallways - a minimum wage, I might add, that happens to be a Democrat incurred legislation. But it's okay if farmers want to use the illegal-alien-loophole to pay people less than that because these poor people are just grateful to be anywhere other than Mexico. I challenge you to find me any numbers that show the majority of citizens in Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and California support keeping an open Mexican border. Show me where they feel they need these people so that they can buy lettuce at $0.99 a pound. Like I said before, it's easy for a Massachusetts liberal to side with the illegals, because they don't have to live with them.

And never mind how much they tax the economy. That any of my taxes, I don't care if it's .00017% of my share, goes toward helping criminals break the law, is, prima facia, wrong.

How ironic that those of you who defend the so-called rights of criminal Mexican aliens happen to be on the exact same side as our very own President on this issue.




First of all, your taxes are going down, so I don't know what the tax complaint is all about.
And show me the american who can't find a job because an illegal mexican has it, or couldn't get medical treatment because the medics were too busy helping illegals.
I'm not arguing the illegal aliens are a problem. I'm arguing it's a miniscule problem in the scheme of things.

[BG]

"Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just make it legal for them to work here?"

Beautiful, this could solve our outsource dilema. LEGAL cheap slave labor in our own country. But it's OK 'cause it's good for the economy. Damn, what a country.

BG

[Mr_Cheeze]

A minuscule problem for you because you live far away from the problem. Not so muniscule for those peopel who are affected by it directly. That a group of concerned citizens have taken it upon themselves to try and remedy the problem, I don't see how that is such a bad thing.

[kernel crash]

"I'm arguing it's a miniscule problem in the scheme of things."

If you lived in those border communities you might not feel it is such a miniscule problem.

"The cost of locking up illegal aliens in California alone averages $1.4 billion per year. Keep in mind that these criminal aliens are not doing time for jaywalking or littering. These are hardcore criminals convicted of gang-related crimes, murder, robbery, drug-trafficking and sex offenses."

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/08/opinion/21_47_2612_7_04.txt

"The illegal alien invasion crossing the southern U.S. border at an estimated average of 800,000 per year has brought more than drugs and crime across the border. Many bring with them diseases ... diseases that were more or less unheard of in this country or ones that had been all but eradicated making a comeback, including: Hepatitis A, B and C, tuberculosis (TB), including MDR (multi-drug-resistant), Hansen’s disease (leprosy), Chagas disease, dengue fever, malaria, polio and others. Illegal aliens coming across the border are not screened for anything, neither for having terrorist affiliations nor communicable diseases."

http://www.inlibertyandfreedom.com/cries.htm

"First there is US citizenship for any Mexican child born in any American hospital of an illegal alien mother (and in Los Angeles County 66% of all births are to illegal alien mothers). The average Mexican woman averaged 6.8 children in 1970 and although this number is believed to have dropped since then it remains a bio-bomb of cataclysmic proportions. Honduran females today average 5.2 children, Guatemalans 5.1 children.

America's hospitals are incubators for the seeds of America's demise -- funded by the US taxpayer. Then there is free housing and free food. And then free medical care beyond anyone's wildest dreams. The children born to illegal alien mothers are immediately eligible for Aid To Families With Dependent Children - AFDC. Illegal alien mothers can and do receive even $2,000 a month in benefits - it depends upon how many US citizen children she has spawned. "

http://www.usborderpatrol.com/borderframe1301.htm

[TrailBate]

"Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just make it legal for them to work here?"

Beautiful, this could solve our outsource dilema. LEGAL cheap slave labor in our own country. But it's OK 'cause it's good for the economy. Damn, what a country.

BG



I guess you never shop at walmart then, huh?

[BG]

"Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just make it legal for them to work here?"

Beautiful, this could solve our outsource dilema. LEGAL cheap slave labor in our own country. But it's OK 'cause it's good for the economy. Damn, what a country.

BG



I guess you never shop at walmart then, huh?



Only when there's a sale.

BG

[Mr_Cheeze]

I've started shopping there more lately and buying lots of Martha Stewart products. Poor woman needs all the help she can get. Just my own way of turning the tables on the injustice to which she has been served.

[Slider]

"I'm arguing it's a miniscule problem in the scheme of things."

If you lived in those border communities you might not feel it is such a miniscule problem.

"The cost of locking up illegal aliens in California alone averages $1.4 billion per year. Keep in mind that these criminal aliens are not doing time for jaywalking or littering. These are hardcore criminals convicted of gang-related crimes, murder, robbery, drug-trafficking and sex offenses."

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/08/opinion/21_47_2612_7_04.txt

"The illegal alien invasion crossing the southern U.S. border at an estimated average of 800,000 per year has brought more than drugs and crime across the border. Many bring with them diseases ... diseases that were more or less unheard of in this country or ones that had been all but eradicated making a comeback, including: Hepatitis A, B and C, tuberculosis (TB), including MDR (multi-drug-resistant), Hansen’s disease (leprosy), Chagas disease, dengue fever, malaria, polio and others. Illegal aliens coming across the border are not screened for anything, neither for having terrorist affiliations nor communicable diseases."

http://www.inlibertyandfreedom.com/cries.htm

"First there is US citizenship for any Mexican child born in any American hospital of an illegal alien mother (and in Los Angeles County 66% of all births are to illegal alien mothers). The average Mexican woman averaged 6.8 children in 1970 and although this number is believed to have dropped since then it remains a bio-bomb of cataclysmic proportions. Honduran females today average 5.2 children, Guatemalans 5.1 children.

America's hospitals are incubators for the seeds of America's demise -- funded by the US taxpayer. Then there is free housing and free food. And then free medical care beyond anyone's wildest dreams. The children born to illegal alien mothers are immediately eligible for Aid To Families With Dependent Children - AFDC. Illegal alien mothers can and do receive even $2,000 a month in benefits - it depends upon how many US citizen children she has spawned. "

http://www.usborderpatrol.com/borderframe1301.htm


Basically you and your sources are saying: Those are some seriously stinking, disease-ridden, criminal Mexicans.

And your point is this is not racism?

Slider

[BG]

"Basically you and your sources are saying: Those are some seriously stinking, disease-ridden, criminal Mexicans.

And your point is this is not racism?"

Slider



YUP.

BG

[MTBME]

"Basically you and your sources are saying: Those are some seriously stinking, disease-ridden, criminal Mexicans. "

That is placing an unnecessary burden on our tax paying citizens, our law enforcement community, our school system, an our health and social welfare systems in those border communities and elsewhere. Where is the racism in that statement! Those are facts!

[Slider]

Facts? They're not facts, they're slurs. If you cite the studies and the research it is based on, and if the methodologies are sound, then you can call them facts. Posting crap on a racist, xenophobic web site does not make that **** become facts.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"Posting crap on a racist, xenophobic web site does not make that **** become facts."

Why is it when you disagree with something it is assumed to be racist, xenophobic. Is every position you take the only solution to everything? Are all other possibilities immediately disregarded because Slider disagrees?

[Slider]

Look, unattributed, unfounded crap is crap, whether I agree or not.

Did you read the stuff you posted? Of your "facts" the only one that is possibly verifiable is the arrest rate of lillegals, but there is no supporting citation. The writer provides an opinion piece - nothing more, and makes huge leaps, with no supporting evidence, about the particular crimes that he claims are committed by illegals. The same applies to the other stuff you sent.

If you are going to make claims like that, you really need to know more about your sources.

Slider

[TrailBate]

c'mon, slider! Can't you see that "bio-bomb of cataclysmic proportions" is a FACT?! And then there is the "american hospitals are seeds for america's demise", and "medical care beyond anyone's wildest dreams", and the non-racist fact that illegal aliens "spawn" children. Almost 7 children per Mexican! Imagine walking across the deserts of mexico with 6 children, and pregnant with another one!
Luckily, Bush has lowered your taxes, and cut spending on EVERYTHING except military spending to help ease this burden on us. And he cut VA benefits for soldiers who are being forced to remain in the military for multiple tours of duty into Iraq. How many tours of duty did Bush serve? But I'm sure these cuts in health care and social services have NOTHING to do with any of this.
But yeah, Illegal aliens are the big problem.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I don't understand what you are objecting to. The author makes a logical connection between crimes committed by illegal aliens and that the state and its taxpayers having to foot the bill for their prison terms. Do you deny that illegal aliens are committing crimes of a serious nature?

And the author of the article about the diseased ridden criminals cites his source right at the very top of the page.
I guess we're supposed to dismiss that one, though, because they spray the words "Liberty" and "freedom" about the page. That obviously proves the author is a racist and a bigot.

[BG]

More info

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html

BG

[TrailBate]

I don't understand what you are objecting to. The author makes a logical connection between crimes committed by illegal aliens and that the state and its taxpayers having to foot the bill for their prison terms. Do you deny that illegal aliens are committing crimes of a serious nature?




Sure they are. Do they make up MOST of the crimes in this area? I would think not (although I have no sources to back this up). Should we not also take into account that the southern states are experiencing a boom in population growth from legal americans moving there?
The thing is these people are blaming ONE group of people for all of their problems.

[Mr_Cheeze]

The thing is these people are blaming ONE group of people for all of their problems.


Talk about a slur! I have never heard any interview where one of these people was so narrow in their view. Do they blame ONE group of illegal immigrants who happen to be Mexican because - HELLO!! - they are crossing the Mexican border for much of the problems? Yes, as well they should.

Again, I don't understand. You guys continue to bandy about charges of racism and yet, I've not seen one good argument on your or Slider's part to defend the immigrants other than they somehow provide a tax evading function for farmers and whatnot. The citizens of Arizona and Texas and California should just turn a blind eye and accept the inevitable, and all of the consequences that result from that? This racism charge is a lazy argument. Give us something else.

[TrailBate]

Are they going after white criminals in their communities? No. Are they going after homeless white people? No. Native americans? ( who live off of your taxes also) no. Drug dealers? No.
Who are they going after for all the problems in their neighborhoods? Mexicans.
I guess from now on whenever I hear about a crime committed in my neighborhood, I'll just blame the Mexicans, too.

[kernel crash]

"Are they going after white criminals in their communities?"

Actually that's quite a spin job your doing trailbait. There going at the source of what they see is their biggest problem Should they stake out a local liquor store to see if they can catch a white guy with a pistol or should they go down to the border where they can reasonably expect to see dozens trying to cross over every night. Seems pretty logical to me.

[TrailBate]

Perhaps they could start neighborhood watches instead? That way they'll deter white AND mexican criminals.

[slapheadmofo]

Sure is nice, kicking back in the lily-white 'burbs, telling everyone how they should think ,and dismissing or insulting anyone that doesn't agree with your story-book views of how the world should work. You guys would be singing a different tune if this was going on in your backyard.

In this country, lots of poor people in one spot = more crime and more need for services in that place. Also usually means a lower quality of life for rest of the area's residents. So why wouldn't the people who are being directly affected by this want to do something to help themselves?

I'll bet most of those people have no problem with Mexicans at all. Of course, Mexicans are Mexicans when they live in Mexico. Once they sneak over the border they're illegal aliens; that's how people come to have an issue with them. And how come Slider says they're stinky?

[TrailBate]

This is no different than some city trying to keep out blacks, or some rural town trying to keep out jews, or anything like that. THese people aren't going after "unemployed criminals", they are targeting MEXICANS. Yes, it's a problem, but it is not the main reason their towns have problems. By focusing on one ethnic group, it becomes racism.

And I assume they are stinky because they just hiked across a desert with no deoderant.

[slapheadmofo]

phew...nasty.

Illegally crossing an international border makes it different.


Yes, it does.

If they were trying to keep out Americans of Mexican descent (or any other sort of hyphenated-Americans), that would be a whole different matter and I'd agree with you.

[BG]

"they are targeting MEXICANS."

HMMM, who else would be coming in over the MEXICAN border, i hope they aren't targeted. Maybe if they just target ILLEGAL ALIENS coming over the MEXICAN border and not just MEXICAN's illegally coming over the MEXICAN border it would be OK. Damn this IS confusing.
Maybe if it wasn't illegal to cross the border illegally it wouldn't matter. Oh i get it now.
No need for border patrols of any kind, we could get rid of customs. What the hell let everybody in. What a country!

BG

[slapheadmofo]

Great news for all those Aussies, Brits and Swedes sneaking into the country under the cover of darkness - any illegal aliens from places other than Mexico are being allowed in. Well, as long as you don't have too much of a tan, cuz your skin tone is the one and only thing anybody involved in this effort cares about anyway. Oh, wait, that's just the ringleaders, the rest are misguided sheep in need of a liberal edumacation.

Simple as that, isn't that right boys?

[TrailBate]

OR, maybe they target ALL the poor, criminals profiting from the system? Oh, wait. They're all mexicans. my bad.

[kernel crash]

"HMMM, who else would be coming in over the MEXICAN border"

"In 1997, the illegal alien population was 54% Mexican. The illegal alien population is currently 70% Mexican, with 30% coming from other countries. Latin America, including Mexico, is the source of 90% of illegal aliens entering into the United States. Along with the Nicaraguans, Brazilians, Venezuelans, Ecuadorians, and Chileans, agents of the Border Patrol now encounter Chinese, Pakistanis, and Indians. Nationals of countries other than Mexico are known, in Border Patrol parlance, as 'OTMs.'" [Other Than Mexicans] TIME magazine reports that "from October 1 of last year until August 25, the Border Patrol estimates that it apprehended 55,890 OTMs". As mentioned previously, the Border Patrol routinely sanitizes and under-reports numbers of illegals. It is therefore reasonable to assume that OTMs account for at least several hundred thousand illegal entries annually."

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/illegal_alien_numbers.html

Who sez's we just discriminate against dirty stinking Mexicans?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Sorry, you can't cite this source, or any for that matter that uses such obvious racist imagery such as http://www.theamericanresistance.com/images/corner_logo.gif

[Slider]

Racism, racism, racism. Racist sources, justifying racist aims, using rascist catch phrases to do so. Very, very clearly, too, unless you have absolutely no ability to parse context, intent, references or anything that a critical mind employs to determine validity.

At this point, I bow out. I've had this discussion too many times, back in the day when I gave a **** about trying to argue with ingorance. At least the political stuff was fun, and interesting, at least comparatively. Racism goes much, much deeper, having to do with self-identity issues, substituting hatred for any attempt at self-awareness. Some things are simply too ingrained to bother trying to change.

Live a hate-filled life, and enjoy simmering in it. It will be the only fulfillment you get, so make the most of it.

Slider

[kernel crash]

"Live a hate-filled life, and enjoy simmering in it. It will be the only fulfillment you get, so make the most of it."

Not sure who your talking about, but the above statement doesn't even come close to describing me. So I don't take any personal offense to it.

My original point was, and always has been, that I didn't agree that you can lump all the so called "minutemen" into one easy to describe package of hate filled racist towards Mexicans. I haven't seen or heard anything on this thread to convince me otherwise.

[slapheadmofo]

Just lost 1/2 hour of hacking at my keyboard dammitall... :-
The gist of it anyway:

I hadn't previously looked at any of the links posted here - I gotta go with Slider wrt to a lot of what I saw, specially the American Resistance boys. They may have their numbers in order (I'm not knowledgable enough to debate them), but I can easily picture those guys wearing sheets as they type. I hadn't gotten that feeling though from the posts read here.

I mainly look at it from the point of the US citizens in some of the communities where this is a real ongoing problem and burden (and I think we can all agree that it is). If I lived in northern Maine and hundreds of thousands of destitute Canadians (and who know's who else?) had been pouring over the borders illegally for years and I thought I could be able to help the situation I might try. I'd hope most of the people doing this sort of thing do it for the 'right' reasons, and though it gets a lot more complicated when the race is involved, I really don't think anyone here is coming at this from a racist bent.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Racism, racism, racism. Racist sources, justifying racist aims, using rascist catch phrases to do so. Very, very clearly, too, unless you have absolutely no ability to parse context, intent, references or anything that a critical mind employs to determine validity.

At this point, I bow out. I've had this discussion too many times, back in the day when I gave a **** about trying to argue with ingorance. At least the political stuff was fun, and interesting, at least comparatively. Racism goes much, much deeper, having to do with self-identity issues, substituting hatred for any attempt at self-awareness. Some things are simply too ingrained to bother trying to change.

Live a hate-filled life, and enjoy simmering in it. It will be the only fulfillment you get, so make the most of it.

Slider


Give me a break with this self righteous crap. You bow out because you cannot substantiate any of those serious charges. You use only broadly sweeping generalizations about militias, people fighting against the influx of illegal aliens, and anybody who dares to call themselves patriots. You have nothing else. It's a typical, liberal argument without merit. Cast aspersions against those with whom you disagree. Ignore logic, downplay data that does not support your case, and discredit sources as just being amongst the racist or bigoted or homophobic or anti-woman factions. I wonder if you even recognize that this is the sort of hogwash that is turning people off from the Democrat party. It's straight out of the Jesse Jackson and Dick Gephardt book of Firestarting For Dummies. Lucky for you you have a friend in the Boston Globe and their "fair and balanced" sense of pseudo journalism.

[TrailBate]

Maybe democrats should just use the "if you're against us, you hate Jesus" argument? Oh, wait, the republicans are already doing that. My bad.

[TrailBate]

btw, who are these people keeping such accurate stats on illegal aliens? Who is counting these people? HOW do you count these people? Did they set up a booth in the desert? "Please take our survey"?

[TrailBate]

Give me a break with this self righteous crap. You bow out because you cannot substantiate any of those serious charges. You use only broadly sweeping generalizations about militias, people fighting against the influx of illegal aliens, and anybody who dares to call themselves patriots. You have nothing else. It's a typical, liberal argument without merit. Cast aspersions against those with whom you disagree. Ignore logic, downplay data that does not support your case, and discredit sources as just being amongst the racist or bigoted or homophobic or anti-woman factions. I wonder if you even recognize that this is the sort of hogwash that is turning people off from the Democrat party. It's straight out of the Jesse Jackson and Dick Gephardt book of Firestarting For Dummies. Lucky for you you have a friend in the Boston Globe and their "fair and balanced" sense of pseudo journalism.


And republicans do the same thing with facts about 9/11 and the Iraqi invasion. Irony can be so ironic sometimes, huh?

[truckboy]

Anybody see CNN Presents (Reports?) last night after Fox stopped broadcasting their good Sunday night shows and gave us some crap?

I was flicking through the stations and came upon this report about just this thing. A few whites who are active against illegals were highlighted as were some illegals. It's not cut and dry either way. One whitey is a real estate developer whose contractors hire day labor, so he's indirectly benefitting from the illegals he wants out. A restaurant owner said point blank if they work hard they can stay. None of these people get health insurance and work for half to a third what a US citizen would demand. BUT neither are they paying taxes nor are the employers paying tax to SS, Medicare, etc.

The INS says they don't have time to go after peaceful illegals who want a better life 'cuz they're after terrorists. One agent interviewed pointed across the street saying "they don't pose a threat".

I don't know what the answer is but it's a pretty gray area. Often these people work harder and more willingly than we do. I bet there arent many of them wasting company money on this forum right now. How can you hate that? They're after the American Dream and we fat lazy slobs are blaming them for taking shitty jobs that we don't want, but they put a strain on the infrastructure that they don't help support and bring down wages for unskilled residents, who then put a strain on the infrastructure they can't afford to help support.

Maybe the people who employ illegals need to be the ones paying dearly when they get caught. Maybe Walmart should have to pay through the nose for getting caught. Where would that money go? Dunno. Education? Border Patrol?

[MTBME]

Can't find a lot to argue with the above comments from truckboy, regarding border jumpers who just want to come over to pick some cantelope, but we don't know who is comming over, how many are comming over, what they want, and where they end up. The border patrol is doing a lousty job but its not their fault. Their handcuffed right from the top.

[TrailBate]

Here ya go cheeze, the gub'ment will now pay for illegal alien's health care!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/heallth.illegal.ap/index.html

why can't the US govmnt just bill whatever country they came from?

[TrailBate]

This should also make Cheeze happy:

The new head of Homeland Security has been given COMPLETE IMMUNITY FROM THE LAW!!!

House Resolution 1268, Section 102.

WAIVER OF LAWS NECESSARY FOR IMPROVEMENT OF BARRIERS AT BORDERS.

Section 102( c ) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (8 U.S.C. 1103 note) is amended to read as follows:

`( c ) Waiver-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall have the authority to waive, and shall waive, all laws such Secretary, in such Secretary’s sole discretion, determines necessary to ensure expeditious construction of the barriers and roads under this section.

`(2) NO JUDICIAL REVIEW- Notwithstanding any other provision of law (statutory or nonstatutory), no court, administrative agency, or other entity shall have jurisdiction–

`(A) to hear any cause or claim arising from any action undertaken, or any decision made, by the Secretary of Homeland Security pursuant to paragraph (1); or

`(B) to order compensatory, declaratory, injunctive, equitable, or any other relief for damage alleged to arise from any such action or decision.’.

[Rych]

Here ya go cheeze, the gub'ment will now pay for illegal alien's health care!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/heallth.illegal.ap/index.html

why can't the US govmnt just bill whatever country they came from?


What I want to know is why I as a citizen of this country bother to pay for health Insurance. What would happen if I cancelled my health insurance, and in 4 weeks when my wife goes into labor I just take her to the ER and say that I am an "undocumented worker" bill GWB.

[felixatvtc]

Here ya go cheeze, the gub'ment will now pay for illegal alien's health care!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/heallth.illegal.ap/index.html

why can't the US govmnt just bill whatever country they came from?


What I want to know is why I as a citizen of this country bother to pay for health Insurance. What would happen if I cancelled my health insurance, and in 4 weeks when my wife goes into labor I just take her to the ER and say that I am an "undocumented worker" bill GWB.


I think we should all do it as a whole. That'd really mess the system up. Then maybe they'd hmmm....FIX IT! But it'll never happen because american's as a whole, are sheeple (Sheep-People for the slow readers ::))

[TrailBate]

Nazi's protest with the Minutemen. Surprise, surprise..


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html

[Mr_Cheeze]

This is not surprising considering that southern states all have a higher population of radical hate groups, and what better cause to attempt to associate themselves with than this? If you've read the blog, leaders of the militia are taking pains to distance themselves from these groups, albeit withut much success.