Science movie censored for scientific content.

[TrailBate]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Movies/03/23/volcano.movie.ap/index.html


::)

[MTBME]

Well what do you expect. These are the same people that think the courts are killing Terri Schiavo.

[slapheadmofo]

"I find it's only in the South," Serapiglia said.

Huh, who'da thunk it? ::)

[BG]

I Know, I Know... This means Bush or Chenney own controlling stock in IMAX, right. ::)

BG

[Slider]

Unreal. I guess they gotta sell a product, but the issue really underscores the knowledge gap in this country.

Bill Moyers wrote a great essay for the New Yorker that takes it back to the political arena. It gets very scary.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17852

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

"I have never heard so much...dangerous ignorance spouted before an utterly unquestioning, otherwise normal-looking crowd in my life.... "

That sure is scary; the quote above does a fair job summing up my feelings about religion in general.
People need to wake up and quit relying on superstition and folklore to tell them how things should be.

[EVIL BOTA]

I guess down south they can't have religion without an open mind ...

[BG]

Yeah, sounds like down south isn't much different than "up north" or "out west" or...

BG

[TrailBate]

nobody said they're close minded because they are religious. They are close minded because they believe their religion so completely, based on nothing but faith, that they refuse to believe anything else, despite a cornucopia of evidence or common sense.

[BG]

And this is different from up north or out west ect.. How?

BG

[EVIL BOTA]

Like I said their not OPEN minded.

[BG]

OK so where's the line? Pennsylvania?

BG

[priss]

Thats the Theory of evolution, not a fact right.

The only closed minds i see writing here are beliveing in a theory, without proof and to the disclusion of all others.

You might not relize it, but you are able to practice your faith without bashing others or application of religous bigotry.

Pardon me, my Crucifix and I will be passing on the right.

priss

[EVIL BOTA]

What I'm saying is you can believe and still be open minded about things... Whos to say the Bible is correct? Maybe Evolution is Gods way?????

If there is a God?

[BG]

So you BELIEVE that down south as a whole they BELIEVE without an open mind?

BG

[EVIL BOTA]

What it sounds like to me......

Think he/she got it?

[Slider]

Priss,

If saying that creationism is ******** is bashing someone, I'm guilty.

Evolution is not a theory. It is provable, and observable in a lab. The ability of AIDS to adapt to treatment is an example of evolution in daily life. The virus evolves in response to a changing environment - new drugs - just as life does to other environmental factors.

If you choose not to see a movie because it contains a well-reasoned presentation about how life came to be on this planet, that is your right. I find it unfortunate that you are letting someone else - a priest, a rabbi, a theologian - force you to concede the power of reason that your mind grants, and replace it with a pre-fab explanation for the world around us. You are choosing dogma over reason, but that is also your right.

Acceptance of any particular dogma requires something the proselytizers call faith. That means you gotta buy the package depite your misgivings, perhaps despite the fact that maybe it doesn't make sense to you on many levels.

The only force behind the promotion of scientific thought is the power of persuasion. Science provides a structure so that mistakes in reason can be more readily exposed. If you follow the arguments - about evolution, for example - through from beginning to end, you understand that they don't require any leaps at all, because the scientific process has screened them out.

Unfortunately, many people simply lack the patience to pay attention for that long a time. It is far, far easier to let someone else tell them what to think. The truth is, this is quite okay. The only problem arises when they try to force their dogma on the rest of us.

Since dogma ignores reason, it is a really bad foundation for decision-making. If we replace logical debate as we plan our future with the tenets of any particular religion, we immediately limit our ability to govern ourselves effectively.

I am ignoring the problems that arise when, say, your particular dogma conflicts with mine or the next fellow. That is a whole nother topic. I am only saying here that evolution is a fact, and arguments to the contrary are based on something other than reason. In discussions about who we are, or how we govern ourselves, reason is all we have.

Slider

[BG]

I've pretty much given up on science and reason, it seems that religion and politics always seem to get in the way.
That's why i gave up on religion and politcs, couldn't quite explain either one with science and reason.

BG

[priss]

slider,

I already know all that stuff. I still chose my faith. I also think the theory of evolution has merit. I can belive in both. One is not exclusive of the other. Thats an open mind.
You think that anyone who is givn the same information as you and reaches a conclusion different then you must be brain washed, stupid, lack patience, conceded their power of reason, are lazy. I think thats unfortunate.
I took the time to review a number of the posts you make here. You seem quite confortable in preaching your particular dogma in the hopes all will convert to your way of thinking. Mostly,I guess, if we all adopt the slider doctrine then the world would be so much a better place. But then you would be guilty of what you profess to abhore. Hypocgracy aside, you do not persuade as much as you offend. Calling me lazy or stupid will not make me change, it will only make me dislike you, and by association,all you stand for.

As far as the movie thing goes. Its a money decision made in a open market. The story is being exploited by those who wish to feed pedjudices for their own personal agenda. Imagine if you had a number of films to chose from and had to pick the one which would draw the most people to the theater. If one was "Yankee's Dynasty, baseballs finest team" then chances are you would pass it over for the Jordan's in Reading but would make millions in the big apple.

Wake up, the media is a religon too.

[Slider]

slider,

You think that anyone who is givn the same information as you and reaches a conclusion different then you must be brain washed, stupid, lack patience, conceded their power of reason, are lazy. I think thats unfortunate.


You're putting words in my mouth. I said, more or less, that substituting dogma for reason in a discussion of public policy makes bad policy. Accepting dogma has serious implications for each individual, but I wouldn't presume to say that it is right or wrong. Personally, I try to avoid letting any dogma skew my judgements, but I am sure I fail all the time. I don't judge whatever works for others.

I am saying that structures, in both science and political decision making, are in place exactly so that reason rules the processes, not dogma, and this is good.

BTW - Brainwashed, stupid and lazy are your words.



I took the time to review a number of the posts you make here. You seem quite confortable in preaching your particular dogma in the hopes all will convert to your way of thinking. Mostly,I guess, if we all adopt the slider doctrine then the world would be so much a better place. But then you would be guilty of what you profess to abhore. Hypocgracy aside, you do not persuade as much as you offend. Calling me lazy or stupid will not make me change, it will only make me dislike you, and by association,all you stand for.



You think I am proselytizing? Well, last time I checked I had no church, followers, agenda, set of tenets, indocrination techniques, propaganda agents, or anything else the might help qualify my opinions as dogma. Agree or disagree as you like, but it is with me and not the product of a movement. As for you liking me, or whatever you think it is that I stand for - why would I possibly give a ****?

Slider

[TrailBate]

So you BELIEVE that down south as a whole they BELIEVE without an open mind?

BG


no, I believe that people who ban movies and books because they don't agree with it, are close minded. And a bit fascist.....Hitler started by burning books.....

[TrailBate]

As far as the movie thing goes. Its a money decision made in a open market. The story is being exploited by those who wish to feed pedjudices for their own personal agenda.


First of all, do you really believe that so few people will see this movie because of a reference to evolution, that it becomes uneconomical to show it? Highly unlikely.

To say the story is being "exploited" is a bit extreme. It was a small blurb on cnn.com that I posted because I found it interesting. And look, it started a debate! Imagine that!

lastly, to say the story is being used to feed somebody's personal agenda, what do you think banning the movie is doing?

you can believe whatever you want. I have baptist friends, jewish friends, atheist friends. I don't care. Believe what you want, be happy, more power to you. But the minute you try to preach to me or force your beliefs on me, then you can bugger off.
Will I refuse to see a movie because it mentions creationism? no. Will I try to ban a book because it mentions it? no. THAT is the difference between these close-minded religious quacks, and just normal everyday religious quacks, uh, I mean people.

[BG]

And this turned into banning movies and burning books How??

BG

[TrailBate]

And this turned into banning movies and burning books How??

BG


uh, did you read the article? And have you not heard of books being banned in libraries and shools?

[slapheadmofo]

One day (hopefully) people will look back at our times and the gods of today will be regarded in the same way we regard the gods of Roman and Greek mythology. It's amazing to me the amount of energy that a supposedly modern and educated society puts into appeasing mythical beings. It disgusts me that people in this day and age are slaughtering each other wholesale for the same reason. Can you imagine battling a follower of the Easter Bunny because you believe in Santa Claus? Being forced to abide by laws based on the teachings of Cupid? It's like a bad f'ing joke.

I'd consider the south to be mainly the former confederate states, or possibly anywhere you can get scrapple. Mmmm, scrapple.. :)

[BG]

I guess your right, The movie was banned and books were burned.

BG

[TrailBate]

One day (hopefully) people will look back at our times and the gods of today will be regarded in the same way we regard the gods of Roman and Greek mythology. It's amazing to me the amount of energy that a supposedly modern and educated society puts into appeasing mythical beings. It disgusts me that people in this day and age are slaughtering each other wholesale for the same reason. Can you imagine battling a follower of the Easter Bunny because you believe in Santa Claus? Being forced to abide by laws based on the teachings of Cupid? It's like a bad f'ing joke.

I'd consider the south to be mainly the former confederate states, or possibly anywhere you can get scrapple. Mmmm, scrapple.. :)






I like to imagine that thousands of years from now, somebody will stumble upon an old copy of Lord of the Rings, and adopt it as their new bible, and everyone will worship Gandalf or Frodo, and kill each other over it, and people will look for where Mt Doom used to be......

[truckboy]

The Bible and Jesus say the Kingdom of God is within us, only there. It's a GUIDELINE for how to live within the laws of the spirit. Example: If I hate you I am hurting myself. I carry that **** with me, it has no effect on you until I act. If I cheat and win I don't really win and I know it and it makes me unhappy. These are immutable laws that the Bible tries to teach us little monkeys.

Anything else is just fallible humans telling another myth to explain the world. The Native Indians believed their ancestors were the stars. That cult a few years back that mutilated their sex organs and killed themselves believed they were going up to the spaceship.

Personally I simply cannot understand how someone could cling so tightly to the theory of creationism in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, but then again I clung to a lot of beliefs that didn't work for me and have many I can't let go of yet.

[ArmOnFire]

...... but then again I clung to a lot of beliefs that didn't work for me and have many I can't let go of yet.



Like bicycles? and more importantly riding them?

[truckboy]

Yeah!

But also some silly teenage-boy type of beliefs and the kind of stuff us new-age gurus leave behind when we become enlightened :P

[Mr_Cheeze]

I agree with BG on this one. What exactly does the south have specifically to do with this? Does IMAX expect people to picket the theater? I mean, I don't get how a money making enterprise would completely disavow the free market system so as to not offend a certain segment of the public over a minor blurb suggesting evolution. Last I realized, the southern US is comprised of a diverse mix of peoples. There has to be more behind this. I'm not sure if the people in the south should be insulted at such pandering. DO they enjoy being constantly cast as close minded and unintelligent?

I think that the stockholders of IMAX might be somewhat perplexed at such a decision. It could backfire on the company.

[TrailBate]

they're not close-minded and unintelligent. They are God's shepherds, protecting the flock from satan.

[BG]

they're not close-minded and unintelligent. They are God's shepherds, protecting the flock from satan.


And don't forget the burning of the books.

BG

[TrailBate]

they're not close-minded and unintelligent. They are God's shepherds, protecting the flock from satan.


And don't forget the burning of the books.

BG


why? Nobody has EVER burned books, especially not religious quacks. never, ever happened.

do a search on "book burning" c'mon, humor me.

[BG]

Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship. [See Amendments, Arts. XLVI and XLVIII.]

Article III. [As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.


Guess i think it's funny that you imply that Southerners have some corner on the market for religious/political quackery.
That's from "our" constsitution by the way. Also take a look at the Preamble.
Gotta love the Constitution.
By the way, i do burn books in the winter for heat. After i have read them for the most part. ;D

BG

[Slider]

Good thing that the Constitution allows for amendments. And it's a good thing the whole church/state separation thing is protected in them.

Slider

[TrailBate]

Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship. [See Amendments, Arts. XLVI and XLVIII.]

Article III. [As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.


Guess i think it's funny that you imply that Southerners have some corner on the market for religious/political quackery.
That's from "our" constsitution by the way. Also take a look at the Preamble.
Gotta love the Constitution.
By the way, i do burn books in the winter for heat. After i have read them for the most part. ;D

BG




I'm not sure what we are arguing about. Are you saying it's ok for religious quacks to burn books? To ban them? To keep them out of libraries and High Schools?
I am by no means saying all religious people are quacks, just the ones who are not satisfied until they try to force their reiligions on others.
you can harp on the freedom of Religion, but when religious quacks engage in religious quackary like this, they are not respecting other people's right to their own religious/spiritual beliefs

[BG]

You HAD to scroll to the bottom of the page. Damn those amendments. Burn them too.

BG

[narlus]

for anyone interested in evolution and related fields of study, i highly recommend Stephen J Gould's (RIP) books. he used to teach at harvard, and has at least a dozen or so books of solid reading. not very pedantic; you don't need to be a grad student of biology to read these.

and for baseball fans, check out _Full House_, which explains the disappearance of the 0.400 hitter in evolutionary terms, and backs it up w/ data. nice!

[Cape Cod Biker]

I gotta agree with Mr_Cheeze here. Nobody is giving the South any credit. I doubt that the majority of bible belt southerners would have a big problem with this movie. I saw it and found it quite interesting on multiple levels. My wife is a church organist and she also found it interesting. why does creationism and evolution have to be mutually exclusive? It reminds me of my good old days at Providence College. As a Christian school, we were required to take at least 4 religion courses. I took some theology. The more I learned, the more I doubted most teachings of the Catholic Church. I remember asking my professor how a theologian could believe in Jesus after learning the numerous holes and flaws in Christine doctrine. My professor responded as follows: "It's a leap of faith." That's when I learned what faith was.

[Slider]

why does creationism and evolution have to be mutually exclusive?


"why does creationism and evolution have to be mutually exclusive? " Because one claims the earth to be 6,000 years old, and the other says it is more like 5 billion years.

The Smithsonian has some nice fluted North American Paleoindian points that are 10,000 years old. You might have read recently about some still-intact cells from a T-Rex thigh bone, that are carbon dated to 20 million years or so. Take your pick - they both rule out the creation story as told in the Bible.

I'd guess that higher levels of education correleate to a rejection of creationism. If you get exposed to rational ideas in school, you're more likely to look at a myth like that with a more critical eye. I haven't done the demographics, but there are more universities on the coasts than in the south, so maybe there is wider acceptance of creation in, say, Alabama that in New York. Dunno for sure - I've only read about the place.

Slider

[huff'npuff]

"why does creationism and evolution have to be mutually exclusive? " Because one claims the earth to be 6,000 years old, and the other says it is more like 5 billion years.

The Smithsonian has some nice fluted North American Paleoindian points that are 10,000 years old. You might have read recently about some still-intact cells from a T-Rex thigh bone, that are carbon dated to 20 million years or so. Take your pick - they both rule out the creation story as told in the Bible.

I'd guess that higher levels of education correleate to a rejection of creationism. If you get exposed to rational ideas in school, you're more likely to look at a myth like that with a more critical eye. I haven't done the demographics, but there are more universities on the coasts than in the south, so maybe there is wider acceptance of creation in, say, Alabama that in New York. Dunno for sure - I've only read about the place.

Slider


I remember being told in school many,many years ago ( a biblical day to many of you,I'm sure ;D ) that the biblical "day" could've been millions of years. The "day" was just a term designating a length of each sequential creation period.
Maybe this site will explain it much better than I am able to : http://home.att.net/~jamspsu84/ttocday.html

[BG]

Damn, this is even worse than the Constitution. Guess you have to read EVERYTHING, and COMPLETELY and understand all the implications and be open minded and be educated and be intelligent and be spiritual and be articulate and be non prejudice and be...
I could see how book burning could become popular.

BG

[EVIL BOTA]

If I keep reading this post I might end up with a degree.

Very Educational fellas!

[TrailBate]

That's one good thing about Judaism (of which I know next to nothing.) Jews are taught to question their religion. Christians are taught to just believe it, end of story.

[BG]

Just when i thought we were making progress...

BG

[Slider]

I remember being told in school many,many years ago ( a biblical day to many of you,I'm sure ;D ) that the biblical "day" could've been millions of years. The "day" was just a term designating a length of each sequential creation period.


So the creation process actually took billions of years, as evolutionary and geological sciences tell us? And, by inference, the process actually happened as those sciences describe? Well, damn! This creationism movement might not be so bad after all. Now if we can only get them to teach that version in, say, the South, where a slightly more restrictive approach is being taught.

Beyond that, what you seem to be saying is that the Bible's creation story is an analogy. "Days" can be millions of years. This business about the "firmament" could be about planetary formation as galaxies cool. Symbolical, allegorical, and analogical explanations for life processes, like the ones we're talking about, are otherwise know as myths.

Now myths are important. They fulfill a lot of key roles in a society. For some societies, they are central, as are other elements of religion, in all aspects of life, including daily governmental processes and decisions. Think Afghanistan under the Taliban, or, a milder example, Saudi Arabia.

The USA, by choice, is not like those societies. We have codified our choice to keep religion and government separate. And the reasons for that are sound: We respect the right of each citizen to worship as he chooses. We recognize that a preference for any given set of tenets assigns the rest of us, who have selected tenet set B, or C or none of the above, to second class status. This country is about equality, and second class status is unacceptable for any of us.

In an earlier post I said Creationism is ********. A more accurate statemnt would be that it is an important myth for lots of people, and has deep meaning for them. When policy is made based on the literal truth of a myth, someone has to come out and say that it is ********, at least as it relates to the formation of policy.

It comes down to this: Teach your kids what you want at home, but don't feed it to my kids in school.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

That's one good thing about Judaism (of which I know next to nothing.) Jews are taught to question their religion. Christians are taught to just believe it, end of story.

http://24ur.com/media/images/large/Aug2004/6014065.jpg

[GaryFisherFreak]

One day (hopefully) people will look back at our times and the gods of today will be regarded in the same way we regard the gods of Roman and Greek mythology. It's amazing to me the amount of energy that a supposedly modern and educated society puts into appeasing mythical beings. It disgusts me that people in this day and age are slaughtering each other wholesale for the same reason. Can you imagine battling a follower of the Easter Bunny because you believe in Santa Claus? Being forced to abide by laws based on the teachings of Cupid? It's like a bad f'ing joke.

I'd consider the south to be mainly the former confederate states, or possibly anywhere you can get scrapple. Mmmm, scrapple.. :)










Thats so true. I am an atheist. I agree totaly with what you are saying! I mean seriously folks. Over 2005 years do you think that this is not a myth? i think this is like that game we all know and love "telaphone". yes i truly belive this is just a STORY. But you all can belive what you all want. I think that them closing a theatre or banning books is wrong. Everyone should be truly open to other realigions. no questions asked. though i am guilty of beging a little bit racist twards VERY strong christans. But i try not to make comments or get angry.

[Cape Cod Biker]

I believe in God. I have friends who are atheists. I am a Christian but one with a doctorate degree. Quite a bit of what I am hearing from various posts demonstrate a lack of knowledge regarding Christianity. The bible belt also contains loads of Christians who lack knowledge of their faith. They don't even know simple things that any religious historian could tell you. For example, Christianity does not preach that the earth is 6,000 years old. The four little books known as the Gospels according to John, Mark, Luke, and Matthew are not Gospels of Jesus' apostles. These Gospels were written a few generations after Jesus's death as the people of the day apparently didn't think Jesus' life was worth writing about. A bunch of other Gospels are not contained in the New Testament because some pope said so. It is a historical fact that Jesus walked this earth. Some theologians think Jesus got married. Early priests could marry until some pope decided they could not any more. Jesus was born during Herod's rule(Roman Empire stuff). Herod died in 4 B.C. meaning Jesus was not born in 0 as many think. Jesus died in A.D. 36 or darn close to that. He also was not born on December 25th. Christianity can also be easily reconciled with evolution. Unfortunately, there are many misinformed Christians in the south who read the Bible (and which bible are they talking about?) literally. It is not to be read and interpreted literally. Ask any theologian(historian who studies this stuff). I'll stop talking now. Sorry for the long post.

[priss]

I believe in God. I have friends who are atheists. I am a Christian but one with a doctorate degree.

Gee, acording to Slider this cant be true.



I'd guess that higher levels of education correleate to a rejection of creationism. If you get exposed to rational ideas in school, you're more likely to look at a myth like that with a more critical eye. Slider

[Slider]

I believe in God. I have friends who are atheists. I am a Christian but one with a doctorate degree.

Gee, acording to Slider this cant be true.



I'd guess that higher levels of education correleate to a rejection of creationism. If you get exposed to rational ideas in school, you're more likely to look at a myth like that with a more critical eye. Slider



Priss,

Where did you study statistics, Bible school? A "correlation" means a measurable trend suggesting a link. It would not mean that some with degrees can't be Christians. Put more stress on the phrase "more likely" to get my point.

Slider

[TrailBate]

I believe the Bible is just a over-dramatic history book. I have little doubt that Jesus existed (he is written about in many ancient texts from the region), I have little doubt there was a hail of fire in Egypt, or the river turned red, or the plagues of locusts (the volcanic eruption near greece, floods often turn the Nile red, plagues of locusts happen regularly).
But I am not convinced they all tie together the way the Bible makes them out to.
Then there are the ancient (and modern) scholars and religious people who have picked and chosen which stories go in the bible, which don't, and which get burned so nobody ever sees them.

[slapheadmofo]

Whether Jesus existed isn't what I question; rather, who's his daddy?

[Slider]

If this thread really deteriorates, maybe one side wil simply chant:

Who's his DA-ddy, Who's his DA-ddy, Who's his DA-ddy...

Virgin birth - one of those faith leaps.

Slider

[TrailBate]

I also refuse to see a movie about Jesus directed by a guy who denies the Holocaust ever happened.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I also refuse to see a movie about Jesus directed by a guy who denies the Holocaust ever happened.

That's a tad innacurate and quite unfair, since it was his DA-ddy who believed that. Are you going to persecute a man for his father's misguided prejudices? Or are you just assuming that he believes the same way because you don't agree with his politics?

Say what you want about Mel Gibson, but you have to at least respect a man for sticking to his religious and conservative ideals in an industry that is mostly dominated by those with the completely opposite political stance.

[TrailBate]

I also refuse to see a movie about Jesus directed by a guy who denies the Holocaust ever happened.

That's a tad innacurate and quite unfair, since it was his DA-ddy who believed that. Are you going to persecute a man for his father's misguided prejudices? Or are you just assuming that he believes the same way because you don't agree with his politics?

Say what you want about Mel Gibson, but you have to at least respect a man for sticking to his religious and conservative ideals in an industry that is mostly dominated by those with the completely opposite political stance.


His father believes the Holocaust was a hoax, and when Mel is ever asked about his opinion on it ,he refuses to discuss it.

[Mr_Cheeze]

And that means what, exactly? Since when does someone NOT saying something translate into something one means to say?

[TrailBate]

If you were accused of being a nutball who didn't believe the holocaust ever happened, wouldn't you like to clear up that little rumour?

[huff'npuff]

Slider said :
"So the creation process actually took billions of years, as evolutionary and geological sciences tell us? And, by inference, the process actually happened as those sciences describe? Well, damn! This creationism movement might not be so bad after all. Now if we can only get them to teach that version in, say, the South, where a slightly more restrictive approach is being taught.

Beyond that, what you seem to be saying is that the Bible's creation story is an analogy. "


I'M not saying it's an analogy. Those are your words. I simply mentioned the teaching,which would parallel scientific data. How many people in those days would comprehend the concept of milleniums ?
Yes, there's faith involved,but of course because there is,then it's mythological. Oh well, believe or disbelieve whatever you want. I'm not forcing you to,and I'm sure the schools aren't forcing your kids either - not in today's PC times.

[priss]

Your wasting your time HuffPuff.

Have you noticed the only people saying that others should stop their teaching or that their belifs are dangerous and based on ignorance are the anti-religous. I havent seen anyone who belives in a religous life try to change anyone's mind here yet. I am happy and secure in my lifes choices, I dont need to convince anyone that i am right and they are wrong.

Why is it the non- religious feel they need to?

Slider and TrailBait like to make thier statements and then enter an argrument with others when they disagree. Who are they trying to convince.

And why here instead of somewhere there are real zelots that can argue with the same passion. Maybee because they feel like they stand a better chance amonst people who are not actually looking for a religous or political argument , but only get caught of gaurd by a predjudice, bigoted post.

Now i've gone and given them just exactly what they wanted, when will i learn

[huff'npuff]

Hi Priss,
Hey, I just put in my two cents worth to use up some of my membership time. :)
I really hope that my comment wasn't taken as argumentative. I was just sharing what I had been taught,and wasn't forcing any belief.
These chaps contribute to this forum much more than I do,and I neither agree nor disagree with most of what's posted here.
All in good,clean fun. ( I hope )

[TrailBate]

Your wasting your time HuffPuff.

Have you noticed the only people saying that others should stop their teaching or that their belifs are dangerous and based on ignorance are the anti-religous. I havent seen anyone who belives in a religous life try to change anyone's mind here yet. I am happy and secure in my lifes choices, I dont need to convince anyone that i am right and they are wrong.

Why is it the non- religious feel they need to?

Slider and TrailBait like to make thier statements and then enter an argrument with others when they disagree. Who are they trying to convince.

And why here instead of somewhere there are real zelots that can argue with the same passion. Maybee because they feel like they stand a better chance amonst people who are not actually looking for a religous or political argument , but only get caught of gaurd by a predjudice, bigoted post.

Now i've gone and given them just exactly what they wanted, when will i learn




yep, you're so gullible!! ;)

I've said it before; I am NOT anti religious. I have many religious friends. What I am against are the people who feel it is their duty, charged by God, to do whatever they can to let others know that their religion is correct and yours is wrong. This includes people who try to ban movies and books, people who knock on my door, people who pass out pamphlets at the super market, people who protest outside hospitals, etc. I have my own spiritual beliefs, and I keep them to myself. I have enough respect of your choice to not impose my beliefs over yours....however I don't have enough respect to refrain from bashing your religion if you shove it in my face.

[Slider]

Priss,

You call me anti-religious. I really do not care how you or anyone else chooses to view the world. My concern is about attempts to institutionalize the teaching of myth as fact, which is wrong for many reasons.

The religion discussion here, in a way, arose as a result of some posts about Bush's budding fascism. In case you haven't noticed, he's using his own faith to justify a lot of his political decisions, and in doing so embodies the danger in encouraging that process. Self-righteousness is an excellent rationalization for evil. "I am on the side of God, so I can do as I please."

Generally, in forums, the ideas flow from one another. That is what they are for. If you don't want to hear why I think that, don't read my posts. Unfortunately, the kids in the schools where they are teaching the creation myth as fact don't have the choice to ignore the lesson. Huff & Puff says it isn't happening, but it certainly is happening. And the threat of these dogmatics is spreading.

You say: "I havent seen anyone who belives in a religous life try to change anyone's mind here yet. I am happy and secure in my lifes choices, I dont need to convince anyone that i am right and they are wrong."

How do your posts differ from mine in any way?

Slider

[huff'npuff]

Priss,

You call me anti-religious. I really do not care how you or anyone else chooses to view the world. My concern is about attempts to institutionalize the teaching of myth as fact, which is wrong for many reasons.


Huff & Puff says it isn't happening, but it certainly is happening. And the threat of these dogmatics is spreading.



Slider



WHOA !!!
Should I have said in public schools !? where prayer is not allowed ? How the hell do public schools get away with that ? Are you saying that schools where prayer and the pledge of allegiance isn't allowed teach creationism ?
and as far as attempts to institutionalize the teaching of myth as fact, please let me know of a religion that is 100 % based in pure,unadulterated fact .
Just so you know, I'm hardly a religious person. I just made the mistake of posting a simple statement and got drawn into the politically correct BS that some in here have hugged to their chests for an excuse to argue with anyone who doesn't agree 100% with them.
I never pushed ANY religious belief on ANYONE, nor did I say that it doesn't happen. HOWEVER, most religions WILL go forth and preach their beliefs. You are not forced to accept them. period.

[Slider]

Enjoy the reading on the spread of creationism in schools:

Ga. school board OKs alternatives to evolution
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/09/26/creationism.evolution/

Wisconsin School OKs Creationism Teaching
http://www.able2know.com/forums/about38412.html

Pennsylvania School District to Teach Creationism
http://www.patridiots.com/001160.html

SCHOOL BOARD EASES CREATIONISM STAND
http://www.skepticfiles.org/evo2/vscacr3.htm

This one offers more of an overview:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/30/MNGVNA3PE11.DTL

Slider

[huff'npuff]

The Cobb County Board of Education, the state's second-largest school board, approved the policy change after limited discussion, calling it a "necessary element of providing a balanced education.

The adopted policy, however, included language intended to clarify the board's position that its action is not an endorsement of one particular theory over another.

"It is the intent of the Cobb County Board of Education that this policy not be interpreted to restrict the teaching of evolution; to promote or require the teaching of creationism; or to discriminate for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, religion in general or non-religion," a portion of the policy said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

They're not forcing a belief. Yes, they ARE teaching the theory......WELL GEE WHILLAKERS! HOW AWFUL!
BTW, there was something in the news a few weeks back about how scientists could not now discount the possibility of God, or a "higher being" I wish I had paid more attention at the time,but I never tought Id have a reason to bring it up in a conversation. Silly me. I forgot how this forum can be. ::) ( I do enjoy the tongue in cheek,lol!)

[priss]

The adopted policy, however, included language intended to clarify the board's position that its action is not an endorsement of one particular theory over another.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

They're not forcing a belief. Yes, they ARE teaching the theory......WELL GEE WHILLAKERS! HOW AWFUL!
( I do enjoy the tongue in cheek,lol!)


You missed the part where Slider explained how evolution is not a Theroy, but a fact. You can see it on page 2.

It is understandable that one would feel the teaching of a theroy over a fact would be a bad thing to have in school. So I can understand how Slider got where he is on this. I, along with the scientific community at large and the Websters dictonary, continue to disagree with him.

[Slider]

They're elevating a myth to factual status, in a classroom, under the banner of education. There is no "theory" of Creationism. It is pure dogma.

Evolution, on the other had, is measurable and reasonably well understood. Most of all, teaching it does not advance the tenets of only some of the many religions that are practiced in this country. It is non-demoninational. Ecumenical, if you will.

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

You missed the part where Slider explained how evolution is not a Theroy, but a fact. You can see it on page 2.

It is understandable that one would feel the teaching of a theroy over a fact would be a bad thing to have in school. So I can understand how Slider got where he is on this. I, along with the scientific community at large and the Websters dictonary, continue to disagree with him.



The problem with creationists is their complete disavowal of anything scientific. It's not just the Theory of Evolution, but any well documented set of studies that might disprove any of the Bible myths, like the Moses or Jesus miracles, or the age of the planet. In their eyes, scientists are the devil's henchmen. You could argue ad infinitum about the validity of evolution, but they'll just return the same, tired refrain, as Priss has done. "Evolution is just a theory. Nevermind that it has been well documented and proven beyond reasonable doubt in the scientific community. Because, you see, the very definition of a Theory is different to creationists. The hypocisy, which they choose to ignore, is that their beliefs are founded in a book without solid proof or other documentation to back it up. There is no basis of fact. The theories of evolution, relativity, and quantum physics are about as close to fact as they can get without actually knowing the hard truth.

The rebuttal? The Bible IS fact. We know... we know. The holy, inspired word of God... yadda yadda.

Thankfully, science and reason tends to hold more sway with more people in advanced counteis like the US. I guess the creationists would feel more comfortable if we still lived as we did 400 years ago, before all of this science came around and muddled things up. As the eminent philosopher Homer Simpson would say, "Stupid science."

[huff'npuff]

Creationism..........thousands of years old.
Evolution............ how old ?

If it makes you feel better - whatever works,right ?

My first post was just to point out that the two could coincide. Semantics seem to be the key.
From the Altanta paper :
"The Cobb County Board of Education, the state's second-largest school board, approved the policy change after limited discussion, calling it a necessary element of providing a BALANCED education."
I won't waste my time or yours any longer on this subject, enjoy your respective days.

[slapheadmofo]

Who's his DA-ddy?!? ;D

[BG]

Outside of idle curiosity, why does anyone give a rat's...

BG

[TrailBate]

Outside of idle curiosity, why does anyone give a rat's...

BG


would you care if someone forced you to become a Muslim? (I'm assuming you are not a Muslim already)

[Slider]

"The Cobb County Board of Education, the state's second-largest school board, approved the policy change after limited discussion, calling it a necessary element of providing a BALANCED education."


Balance would require the teaching of ALL creation myths, from all religions. It ain't about balance.

Slider

[BG]

OOpps, clarification.
In reference to where "we" came from.
In reality most all of us were "forced' to believe in one type of theology or theosophy by our parents ect.
Personally, i think that is not such a great idea.

BG

[slapheadmofo]

But isn't it easiest to brainwash 'em while they're young? I mean, if you waited until they reached an age of reason, then sprung all this 'spiritual' claptrap on them, how much of a successful conversion rate do you think you'd have? Scare them w/ stories of burning in hell forever if they have bacon on Friday or some other nonsensical **** like that, and when a rule gets unpopular enough, change it so you don't lose followers and the income that goes along with them. Not like it's the word of god or anything...

True story - my wife and her brother as children are in a Sunday school indoctrination session. In the middle of class, a 'sister' comes in and pulls them out and tells them they can't attend anymore and that their mother is a sinner and can expect to go to hell. Why? The church found out that her mother had divorced her father, who had run out on the family. That's some seriously f'ed up **** right there. And you know it's only the tip of the iceberg.

[priss]

It ain't about balance.

Slider


YOu asked in a previous post how you and i differ. I think this quote discribes the difference most.

You want to censor the education system and have taught only the ideas that you think have merit. Perhaps you could go to the school library and pull out all the religous books and burn them. Be carefull tho you will have to answer to TrailBait.

As far a being "forced" by parents towards certian belifs. Most people call that raising a child. I think the responcibility for that should remain with the parents, but if it is your choice to let others do it then fine, as long as it is still the parents choice. If you chose to send your kids to a school where they are teaching things you would rather they not teach then this is America and you can complain or run for school board or join the PTA or start a petition or just pull your kids out and send them elsewhere or homeschool if it means that much to you.

It seems to be missed or ignored by people reading my posts. So i will repeat again. I am for freedom of expression, ideas, religon, science, whatever you want. My only beef with you guys is that you want to silence a particular idea because you think it is dangerous to be had.

[Slider]

It ain't about balance.

Slider


You want to censor the education system and have taught only the ideas that you think have merit. Perhaps you could go to the school library and pull out all the religous books and burn them. Be carefull tho you will have to answer to TrailBait.


Again, you seem to assign far broader meaning to my posts than what is actually there. As one who nearly became an anthropologist, I appreciate the study of all cultures, and all religions. There's a lot to be learned there about who we are, and how we came to be. But it has nothing to do with science. The study of culture and religion can be done in a scientific way, but teaching Creationism as science is wrong for two obvious reasons:

Creationism is myth, not fact, and many people in the US subscribe to other creation myths.


If you chose to send your kids to a school where they are teaching things you would rather they not teach then this is America and you can complain or run for school board or join the PTA or start a petition or just pull your kids out and send them elsewhere or homeschool if it means that much to you.


So a Hindu, Bhuddist, pagan, animist, or Muslim, who pays taxes to support the public school system, must subject his children to myth taught as fact in school, simply because he is in the minority? This would seem to be the epitome of repressive policy.


It seems to be missed or ignored by people reading my posts. So i will repeat again. I am for freedom of expression, ideas, religon, science, whatever you want. My only beef with you guys is that you want to silence a particular idea because you think it is dangerous to be had.


No, you are not for freedom of expression. If you were, you would understand the importance of levelling the playing field, so that no particular dogma is preferred over others. Instead, you attempting to rationalize the teaching of dogma as fact.

The danger is not in the myth, but in the method in which it is promoted.

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

I think every sensible American would agree that not teaching the theory of evolution in school would be ridiculous and do the students a great disservice. No contention there right? Good. Now to move on..

The issue boils down to should the public schools teach religious dogma or not? The clear answer is NO, specially when they decide to promote one myth when there are so many versions of that story to choose from. If you're gonna promote one agenda, you need to promote the rest as well. Hell, the kids could spend half the day getting all sorts of different philosophys drilled into them. Betcha Mr and Mrs Biblethumper are all for keeping religion outta the schools when little Billy Biblethumper comes home and declares he's Billy the Buddhist from now on, or Abu Billy Bombmaker, after he takes Jihad 101 for a few weeks.

It's all so backwards... ::)

[Mr_Cheeze]

Depends which pubic education you are talking about. I don't have a problem if the people of Kentucky decide that they want Creationism taught in their schools. It's their state. Because that is really the crux of the whole matter. We can debate about what we think is right to be taught, but unless you live in Kentucky or Mississippi, it's not really your business to decide. Don't move there. Thankfully we live in an area of the country where that could never happen.

[TrailBate]

Depends which pubic education you are talking about. I don't have a problem if the people of Kentucky decide that they want Creationism taught in their schools. It's their state. Because that is really the crux of the whole matter. We can debate about what we think is right to be taught, but unless you live in Kentucky or Mississippi, it's not really your business to decide. Don't move there. Thankfully we live in an area of the country where that could never happen.


so I guess it just sucks to be Jewish and live in a state where you are force fed another religion huh? So much for the constitution. This mentality comes off as "you're either christian, or you're going to hell. So just learn the christian beliefs and shut up."

[BG]

OK Damn, what do we do with all these private and parochial schools?

BG

[Mr_Cheeze]

so I guess it just sucks to be Jewish and live in a state where you are force fed another religion huh? So much for the constitution. This mentality comes off as "you're either christian, or you're going to hell. So just learn the christian beliefs and shut up."


States' and municipality rights. Period. End of story. That's the way it was set up, and that's the way it should be. If a small town in rural Alabama is 95% Southern Baptist, far be it for you or me to decide for them what they should be teaching their children.

So what would you prefer? Having the federal government dictate to the states who in turn dictate to each city and town what they may or may not teach in their own schools? And one of those things which should never be taught is religion or god? That's been tried in other places. We refer to those places and their governments as Communists.

I'm not even sure I understand why anyone outside of Bumfuck, Whateverstate even gives a **** about what they are teaching there. Worry about your own town's education. It's where your taxes are being spent.

[TrailBate]

So what would you prefer? Having the federal government dictate to the states who in turn dictate to each city and town what they may or may not teach in their own schools? And one of those things which should never be taught is religion or god? That's been tried in other places. We refer to those places and their governments as Communists.

I'm not even sure I understand why anyone outside of Bumfuck, Whateverstate even gives a **** about what they are teaching there. Worry about your own town's education. It's where your taxes are being spent.


ay ay. The "communist" label now. These aren't private schools we're talking about, they are PUBLIC schools. They shouldn't teach religion, unless they plan on teaching ALL religions, because the US is not a Christian-only country. Why is that so hard to understand? Someone who is not christian deserves to be free from having someone else's religion forced on them, by their own GOVERNMENT no less. Just like you would not want Islam or Shintoism forced on you. If you want your kid to be taught a certain religion, teach them yourself, sent them to sunday school, or private school, or wherever else. The communism label is just plain ignorant. It's called the CONSTITUTION.

[BG]

Damn those constitutions again, guess sometimes they just don't work in your favor.

BG

[TrailBate]

yeah, it's called "freedom of religion." which means you're free to practice your own religion without others, especially the government, forcing another religion on you.
The christian right seem to think freedom of religion only applies to christianity, and everyone else needs to just deal with it.

[BG]

Actually i don't mind religion in public schools as much as the enormous spin, blatant ommisions, and colorations in American History courses. But i guess that's to be expected if we want our children to think the way we want them to.

BG

[TrailBate]

Actually i don't mind religion in public schools as much as the enormous spin, blatant ommisions, and colorations in American History courses. But i guess that's to be expected if we want our children to think the way we want them to.

BG


I can't argue with you there.

[slapheadmofo]

Actually i don't mind religion in public schools as much as the enormous spin, blatant ommisions, and colorations in American History courses. But i guess that's to be expected if we want our children to think the way we want them to.

BG


Don't worry, they'll get the total opposite spin on it all when they get to college.

[BG]

Actually i don't mind religion in public schools as much as the enormous spin, blatant ommisions, and colorations in American History courses. But i guess that's to be expected if we want our children to think the way we want them to.

BG


Don't worry, they'll get the total opposite spin on it all when they get to college.


LMAO. Priceless.
OK, you're an adult now, time to forget about everything you think you learned in lesser school.You'll probably find out that much of it was not true,(even scientific stuff 'cause we're much smater than we were then) but we really didn't lie to you, we just didn't know better. And oh by the way good luck in life dealing withall this ********, if you have trouble you might want to talk to a priest or rabai or something, maybe they can help you out. Gotta love it.

BG

[Mr_Cheeze]

So what would you prefer? Having the federal government dictate to the states who in turn dictate to each city and town what they may or may not teach in their own schools? And one of those things which should never be taught is religion or god? That's been tried in other places. We refer to those places and their governments as Communists.

I'm not even sure I understand why anyone outside of Bumfuck, Whateverstate even gives a **** about what they are teaching there. Worry about your own town's education. It's where your taxes are being spent.


ay ay. The "communist" label now. These aren't private schools we're talking about, they are PUBLIC schools. They shouldn't teach religion, unless they plan on teaching ALL religions, because the US is not a Christian-only country. Why is that so hard to understand? Someone who is not christian deserves to be free from having someone else's religion forced on them, by their own GOVERNMENT no less. Just like you would not want Islam or Shintoism forced on you. If you want your kid to be taught a certain religion, teach them yourself, sent them to sunday school, or private school, or wherever else. The communism label is just plain ignorant. It's called the CONSTITUTION.


You obviously didn't even read substance what I wrote. You just saw the word "communist" and said, "Here we go again", assuming that I was labeling or namecalling. I wasn't. I was stating a simple fact. Was your expressed outrage over my "smear" a way to avoid the question? Why do you care what people in Smalltown, Kentucky decide how they want their taxes spent toward their children's education? How do you define democracy if it isn't about the people deciding how their tax money should represent them? Shouldn't you be more concerned about how your tax money is being spent on education where you live? Yes. And you need not worry about this question in that regard because it is moot, here.

Wait, you live in Middleboro, right? I forgot. Those bumkins are still teaching creationism out there?

[TrailBate]

You obviously didn't even read substance what I wrote. You just saw the word "communist" and said, "Here we go again", assuming that I was labeling or namecalling. I wasn't. I was stating a simple fact. Was your expressed outrage over my "smear" a way to avoid the question? Why do you care what people in Smalltown, Kentucky decide how they want their taxes spent toward their children's education? How do you define democracy if it isn't about the people deciding how their tax money should represent them? Shouldn't you be more concerned about how your tax money is being spent on education where you live? Yes. And you need not worry about this question in that regard because it is moot, here.

Wait, you live in Middleboro, right? I forgot. Those bumkins are still teaching creationism out there?


All you are doing is putting "majority rules" over "freedom of religion." So what should the non-christians do in a school district when the "majority" decides to teach creationism? Move? Should we make the christians live here, and the jews live there? Hmmm, can't see a problem with that......
This country was founded on people who left england in large part to be able to practice their own religion.


So what would you prefer? Having the federal government dictate to the states who in turn dictate to each city and town what they may or may not teach in their own schools? And one of those things which should never be taught is religion or god? That's been tried in other places. We refer to those places and their governments as Communists.

No, that is not communism. It's Federalism. Communism wouldn't even allow private practice of religions. Churches were torn down or converted to government buildings. You are advocating schools teaching one religion, and telling everyone else to deal with it. Somehow you're passing that off as American, and anything else is communism. You're stomping on the religious freedom of others.

[BG]

How did you get, "they can't practice their own religion" out of this?

BG

[TrailBate]

How did you get, "they can't practice their own religion" out of this?

BG


Oh, I see. You can practice your own religion at home, but in school, you must be a christian?

[TrailBate]

oh, and my taxes should not be used to pay the government to teach ONE religion in public schools. Can jews pay lower taxes then? What if your community was mostly Muslim? I'm sure NOBODY in this country would have a problem with christians being forced to take Islam classes.

[BG]

Good, bad or otherwise, i don't see it as "forcing someone to give up their religion".

As i don't see a company who does not want to show a film as government backed baning and book burning.

BG

[TrailBate]

Good, bad or otherwise, i don't see it as "forcing someone to give up their religion".

As i don't see a company who does not want to show a film as government backed baning and book burning.

BG


I'm sure if your child, who you were trying to raise as a Christian, was being forced to take Islam in school, your opinion on that would change.

Obviously, when a private company bans and burns books and movies, it's not government banning. But it's still a group of religious quacks trying to censor media that does not conform to their beliefs.

[Mr_Cheeze]

All you are doing is putting "majority rules" over "freedom of religion." So what should the non-christians do in a school district when the "majority" decides to teach creationism? Move? Should we make the christians live here, and the jews live there? Hmmm, can't see a problem with that......
This country was founded on people who left england in large part to be able to practice their own religion.

No, that is not communism. It's Federalism. Communism wouldn't even allow private practice of religions. Churches were torn down or converted to government buildings. You are advocating schools teaching one religion, and telling everyone else to deal with it. Somehow you're passing that off as American, and anything else is communism. You're stomping on the religious freedom of others.



Are you saying that Federalism is the answer, then? Take away trhe power of the states, because creationism is so bad that these individual townships can't be left to spend their own taxes how they see fit? It is that big a deal??

You want to talk about Britain? Why was the Revolutionary War fought? Hint... something about taxation without representation.

Hey, aren't you one of those who was crying for majority rules when Gore lost to Bush in 2000?

[BG]

Actually i believe ALL RELIGIONS should be "taught" in public schools. If the churches and parents are too insecure to present other points of view, scientific or not, then it would be a good place to do it.
I really don't care what religion my kids are "exposed" to anywhere they learn, they are quite comfortable in believing what they want/need to based on a broad knowledge of all religions including the lack thereof.

BG

[TrailBate]

Are you saying that Federalism is the answer, then? Take away trhe power of the states, because creationism is so bad that these individual townships can't be left to spend their own taxes how they see fit? It is that big a deal??

You want to talk about Britain? Why was the Revolutionary War fought? Hint... something about taxation without representation.

Hey, aren't you one of those who was crying for majority rules when Gore lost to Bush in 2000?



No, I was saying that your example was federalism, not communism. You're avoiding the subject. Do you want your child being taught Islam as a fact in his public school ? Do you see your child being taught another religion AS FACT with your tax money a violation of his/her religious freedom?

[BG]

"Do you see your child being taught another religion AS FACT with your tax money a violation of his/her religious freedom?"


First of all, that's an oxymoron
Second, nope

BG

[Slider]

First of all, the Feds are already all over education, including Bush's idiotic No Child Left Behind, and Title IX. Beyond that, federal anti-discrimination laws apply, as do church/state separation laws. This is absolutely the correct role for the Feds - seeing that education is non-discriminatory.

BG - I gotta ask. What if, say, Hare Krishna, or VooDoo was being taught among the science courses you kid takes in school. Would that bother you?

Slider

[Mr_Cheeze]

No, I was saying that your example was federalism, not communism. You're avoiding the subject. Do you want your child being taught Islam as a fact in his public school ? Do you see your child being taught another religion AS FACT with your tax money a violation of his/her religious freedom?


Since I don't live in a city where this is an issue, I don't see my nor anybody's child being taught religion, period. I really don't give a **** what they teach in Kentucky.

[TrailBate]

Since I don't live in a city where this is an issue, I don't see my nor anybody's child being taught religion, period. I really don't give a **** what they teach in Kentucky.


If your child goes to a public school, it's an issue. Why don't you answer the question? How would you feel about your child being taught another religion as fact in his/her school? This is what the argument is about.

[BG]

"BG - I gotta ask. What if, say, Hare Krishna, or VooDoo was being taught among the science courses you kid takes in school. Would that bother you?"

Nope. "Taught" being the key word. They are being "taught" a lot of things, again good bad or otherwise,as it is now. And as it is now they are not being "forced" to "believe" any of it by anyone. If that changed then yes i would take offense.

BG

[TrailBate]

"BG - I gotta ask. What if, say, Hare Krishna, or VooDoo was being taught among the science courses you kid takes in school. Would that bother you?"

Nope. "Taught" being the key word. They are being "taught" a lot of things, again good bad or otherwise,as it is now. And as it is now they are not being "forced" to "believe" any of it by anyone. If that changed then yes i would take offense.

BG




oh, jeez, now we're arguing over the definition of "taught". Aye Carumba!!

[BG]

So there is no diff between being taught about something, factual, scientific or not, and being forced to believe in something factual scientific or not?

BG

[felixatvtc]

Quote on how i feel about some of the posts in this thread from Hicks again

Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the the world is 12,000 years old. Swear to God. Based on what? I asked them.
"Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages: 12,000 years."
Well how ******* scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12,000 years old?
"That's right."
Okay, I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?
"Uh-huh."
Dinosaurs.
You know the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the ******* Bible at some point.
"And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big ******* lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.
"And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat ******* families and their fat dollar bills.
"And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

;D

[Mr_Cheeze]

Since I don't live in a city where this is an issue, I don't see my nor anybody's child being taught religion, period. I really don't give a **** what they teach in Kentucky.


If your child goes to a public school, it's an issue. Why don't you answer the question? How would you feel about your child being taught another religion as fact in his/her school? This is what the argument is about.


I've answered the question several times over, for cripes sake. You know my stance. It's a State and City/town right's issue, and that's where I stand. The Federal governent should not be telling people how their local taxes should be represented. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Quote on how i feel about some of the posts in this thread from Hicks again

Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the the world is 12,000 years old. Swear to God. Based on what? I asked them.
"Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages: 12,000 years."
Well how ******* scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12,000 years old?
"That's right."
Okay, I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?
"Uh-huh."
Dinosaurs.
You know the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the ******* Bible at some point.
"And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big ******* lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.
"And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat ******* families and their fat dollar bills.
"And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

;D


LMFAO

thanks

[Slider]

I don't exactly understand how you force anyone to believe anything. The most you can do is attempt to indocrinate them, and that is what we're talking about here.

Let's try this: A rabid anti biker becomes head of your school board. Your child's school starts teaching that mountain biking is a scourge, and that Mike Vandeman is the new messiah. The teachers say any parent that bikes off road deserves no respect. Would that cause you to object?

Slider

[slapheadmofo]

And you also think that this claptrap should be given the legitimacy of being presented in SCIENCE class? That's f'ing ridiculous. Maybe if there was a theology class and you could present a different religion's views every week, and it was an optional course, that's one thing. To promote this crap as SCIENCE is another bad joke. Seriously, what is this, the dark ages? How can this even be considered let alone supported?

As for letting the townspeople decide what they want taught in school, well, I'm sure there're plenty of towns in this country where you would easily be able to find a majority who support ideas such as 'white's are superior to other races' and 'AIDS is a punishment from god for being gay' (coincidentally, you'd probably find these towns in the same general part of the country). Does that mean that they should be able to have this stuff presented as science in their local schools? Since when does something become fact simply because it's a strongly held local belief?

[TrailBate]

Since I don't live in a city where this is an issue, I don't see my nor anybody's child being taught religion, period. I really don't give a **** what they teach in Kentucky.


If your child goes to a public school, it's an issue. Why don't you answer the question? How would you feel about your child being taught another religion as fact in his/her school? This is what the argument is about.


I've answered the question several times over, for cripes sake. You know my stance. It's a State and City/town right's issue, and that's where I stand. The Federal governent should not be telling people how their local taxes should be represented. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?


you can't answer this question with "it doesn't apply to me, I dont' live in kentucky."

Try this. True or False:

"I think it is just fine if my child is forced to learn about another religion, other than the one I am teaching him at home, as a fact in his public school."

true or false?

[slapheadmofo]

"And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big ******* lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.
"And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat ******* families and their fat dollar bills.
"And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

;D



;D ;D ;D ;D

heheheh...that's friggin funny....

[Slider]

I've answered the question several times over, for cripes sake. You know my stance. It's a State and City/town right's issue, and that's where I stand. The Federal governent should not be telling people how their local taxes should be represented. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?


The Feds supply a huge amount of funding for education. No Child Left Behind is based on the very misguided idea of withholding that funding as a stick to pound underperforming schools. I don't want my federal taxes to be spent on teaching myth as fact, and I m surprised that you don't care that your is, too.

Slider

[TrailBate]

As for letting the townspeople decide what they want taught in school, well, I'm sure there're plenty of towns in this country where you would easily be able to find a majority who support ideas such as 'white's are superior to other races' and 'AIDS is a punishment from god for being gay' (coincidentally, you'd probably find these towns in the same general part of the country). Does that mean that they should be able to have this stuff presented as science in their local schools? Since when does something become fact simply because it's a strongly held local belief?




good point.
'course, BG would just tell you that you don't have to believe it.

[Slider]

Quote on how i feel about some of the posts in this thread from Hicks again



;D ;D ;D ;D

Slider

[BG]

What better place to expose people to "unscience" than in a science class.

BG

[BG]

"I think it is just fine if my child is forced to learn about another religion, other than the one I am teaching him at home, as a fact in his public school."

true or false?

Change "teaching him at home" to "forcing him to learn about only one at home and /or church"

YUP, true

[slapheadmofo]

"I think it is just fine if my child is forced to learn about another religion, other than the one I am teaching him at home, as a fact in his public school."

true or false?

Change "teaching him at home" to "forcing him to learn about only one at home and /or church"

YUP, true


BG - I think you must be skipping over the most important part - "AS A FACT". Keep this crap in theology class where it belongs, NOT in a SCIENCE class. That's the major issue here as far as I'm concerned, presenting this as stuff as science. I have no problem with my kids learning about Roman and Greek mythology, Buddhism, Hinduism etc etc, but it needs to be presented in the proper context. NOT AS FACT OR SCIENCE. How can you disagree with that?

[Mr_Cheeze]

Try this. True or False:

"I think it is just fine if my child is forced to learn about another religion, other than the one I am teaching him at home, as a fact in his public school."

true or false?


http://stockpix.com/stock/news/687.jpg
The question is moot.

[TrailBate]

The question is moot.


ah, avoidance and re-direction. You ARE a republican!

You lack of ability to answer the question is enough, I guess.

[Mr_Cheeze]

The question is moot.


ah, avoidance and re-direction. You ARE a republican!

You lack of ability to answer the question is enough, I guess.


states rights. taxation. representation. kentucky. moot.

[TrailBate]

sorry, cheeze,
You have 2 options. True or False.
C'mon, try it.
T-r-u-e
f-a-l-s-e

[slapheadmofo]

Fairytales presented as fact?

Moot.

[priss]

I guess it sucks to be you, when you are in the minoraty.

You are right in assuming that it would suck for me if they were teaching things in school i would rather they did not. And it is true i would not like in none much either.

But your use of the word "forced" is not factual. If i think it sucks for me and i cant change the schools then i still have the freedom to take my kids out. Which, by the way i already have.

The taxpayer argument is the worst one you guys have used yet. I pay for alot of things out of my taxes that i do not recieve any benifit from. Some people have no kids, or no car or never use the parks or whatever.

[Slider]

The taxpayer argument is the worst one you guys have used yet. I pay for alot of things out of my taxes that i do not recieve any benifit from. Some people have no kids, or no car or never use the parks or whatever.


You miss the point. It is not about directly benefitting from a particular service that is supported by taxes. It is about having a say in how our tax dollars are spent, period. You know, the whole "taxation without representation is tyranny" thing that was the reason our country came into existence.

I don't happen to have kids, but I still want a say in whether a myth is taught as fact, using tax dollars, to anyone in our country, because of the vast oppression it represents to those who don't belong to any of the religions that hold Creationism to be truth. Even believers of many Bible-based religions know fact from myth, so this isn't even drawn on religious lines, but something slightly less well defined.

Fortunately, and wisely, federal law specifically prohibits the establishment of a state religion. Teaching one particular myth as fact in public schools violates those laws. It should be clear to everyone that we should not spend tax dollars on practices that violate federal law.

I am against oppression generally, religious or otherwise. Respect for equality demands that myth and science are treated independently in public schools.

Slider

[felixatvtc]

sorry, cheeze,
You have 2 options. True or False.
C'mon, try it.
T-r-u-e
f-a-l-s-e


I'm amazed no one could answer that simple question without changing the subject or adding a clause. very interesting ::)

[TrailBate]

But your use of the word "forced" is not factual. If i think it sucks for me and i cant change the schools then i still have the freedom to take my kids out. Which, by the way i already have.

I'm glad you can afford it. A lot of people can't afford it, and why should they have to when their TAXES are already paying for the school they're going to?
Besides, do you really want to have to switch schools becuase your 8 year old tells you that you're following the wrong religion, and his teacher says you are all going to burn in hell?

The taxpayer argument is the worst one you guys have used yet. I pay for alot of things out of my taxes that i do not recieve any benifit from. Some people have no kids, or no car or never use the parks or whatever.


actually, it was one of the pro religion-in-school guys that brought up the Tax argument. But it works both ways...[/quote]

[priss]

It is about having a say in how our tax dollars are spent, period. You know, the whole "taxation without representation is tyranny" thing that was the reason our country came into existence.

I get this part, tho i think there were more reasons for the country starting then just taxation. That part was just for the parts of the country which were English colonies.

Am I to belive that you dont have a say? Are you in prison?, under 18?, controlled by a judges gag order?


I don't happen to have kids, but I still want a say in whether a myth is taught as fact, using tax dollars, to anyone in our country, because of the vast oppression it represents to those who don't belong to any of the religions that hold Creationism to be truth.

I get this part too. Again I ask, Do you not have a say?


One citizen, one vote. Did you get yours? Did you use it?

Thats it then. You had your say, if you lost then get out of the way. Better luck, policies, marketing, spin, or whatever on the next time around. When/IF you win then the other can complain about how no one is listening to them or how they are not getting thier way with thier tax dollars.

[Slider]

Am I to belive that you dont have a say? Are you in prison?, under 18?, controlled by a judges gag order?

The say that we all have, as citizens, takes many forms, with federal law being the most obvious. We have a say, and have already spoken. That is the point.

The task now becomes making sure our elected and appointed officials ensure those laws are enforced. This particular Justice Department, you know, the one helping justify torture, happens to have its head up its ass as far as the Constitution goes. The Department of Education is as bad, but enforcement of law is not up to them. So, despite the fact that law prohibits things like teaching Creationism in schools that receive federal funding, and faith-based initiatives, the battle becomes a fight to force our government to protect the rights we've already agreed to in law.

Slider

[TrailBate]

it's easy to use the "majority rules" argument when you're in the majority.
Since there are more ATV's then MTB's out there, MTB's are now banned from every park or public property.

[BG]

I don't exactly understand how you force anyone to believe anything. The most you can do is attempt to indocrinate them, and that is what we're talking about here.

Let's try this: A rabid anti biker becomes head of your school board. Your child's school starts teaching that mountain biking is a scourge, and that Mike Vandeman is the new messiah. The teachers say any parent that bikes off road deserves no respect. Would that cause you to object?

Slider


Nah, he's the least of my worries.

BG