ATV Trail Destruction Video

[mtbtom]

Anyone who thinks ATVs can coexist with other trail users ought to check out this vid of an organized (Berkshire Trails Council) ATV ride in Western Mass...

linkage:

http://18.85.21.43/7-11-04.avi

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6y2oe/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/7-11-04.avi



And these guys profess to doing trail work to repair the damage that is done during these events ? Say what ?????

No amount of trail work outside of bringing in a front end loader to grade the trail into a road would fill in the 4 foot deep double ruts and now 20 foot wide trail.

The unfortunate thing is, this is now a trail you would never want to hike, bike or ride a horse on now. 1/2 the ATVs can't even get down it ! Unbelievable.

[pk]

This vid is 71 MB....yipes!

pk

[magimerlin]

How could you even begin to fix that? Most if not all the mud holes are swollowing the atv's, you cant fix that unless you destroy the surrounding bank(not an option) to try and fill it in. That would end up making the trail even wider. All the water they are pushing around causes more errosion then one mountain biker in probably 4 seasons of riding and that was just one ride for them. They may be doing trail maininence but they are not really fixing anything by the looks of it. That was probably a great mtb trail at one time. Those are the type of people that tend to give trail riding in general a bad name. So people do not even want mtb's on there land as they feel that we are just as inconsiderate. I'm sory but even if that was just an atv trail only, they are destroying it from future use as it will soon become not passable to any atv. Just my $.02

[mtbtom]

I guess what burns me the most is that this is an organized trail ride event by an ATV advocacy group (Berkshire Trails Council) on a multi-use trail in a Massachusetts State Forest !

I thought part of the DCR's mission was to preserve and protect open space and trails but in this case they are allowing them to be annihilated

[Ben-O]

How could you even begin to fix that?


Just fill it in with with some ATVs, ATV riders, sprinkle a little dirt on top, and you're good to go!

[radair]

I guess what burns me the most is that this is an organized trail ride event by an ATV advocacy group (Berkshire Trails Council) on a multi-use trail in a Massachusetts State Forest !

I thought part of the DCR's mission was to preserve and protect open space and trails but in this case they are allowing them to be annihilated


Send the link to DCR, they should be aware of what these guys are doing. And apparently proud of it.

Thanks for that linkage, Tom. That's a good one for the file.

[truckboy]

That's how some hiking advocates see us. Destructive and proud of it.

[mtbtom]

That's how some hiking advocates see us. Destructive and proud of it.


Sorry but, the "shoe on the other foot" argument doesn't even begin to apply here. There is no way you can compare the impact of a 4 wheeled ATV to that of a mountain bike.

[C.P.]

That's how some hiking advocates see us. Destructive and proud of it.

I would hope you dont mean "us" nemba folk...

"Proud of it" ???

[truckboy]

Come on you two,

You know who I'm talking about. And it doesn't matter whether we think it's applicable or not. My point is that SOME people who are interested in the sanctity of their local park, and who wish to enforce "proper" recreational use of it see us (mountain bikers) in the same light as these ATVers are being seen by us on this thread. They see us widening the trails, causing erosion, going off trail and being all manly about our "conquering" of nature instead of trying to be in harmony with it.

I don't like to see the trails destroyed like this any more than you do, and I'm not trying to align myself with them. I'm simply trying to point out that the way we see these guys and the way some Friends Of... groups see us are similar. It's all in the perception.

[Geoff G.]

that is discusting, I can't see how that is fun for the atv'ers to even ride there. the trails are firggin rivers! also, every atv'er or moto-x-er I know has the same attitude, they don't care about others, and certinly not about the trails

[Sci Teach]

It should be (it already is, isn't it) is to work with land managers to help develop sustainable trail systems that allow the different forms of non-motorized trail use (hike-bike-ski-equestrian) to occur harmoniously in on the same property. Continuing our trail advocacy, volunteer trail maintenance and constructioin for all speak a lot to the land managers.

Additionally, we need to continue to educate the non-riding community that we are not the same type of user as the moto/atv crowd. If that means putting down the moto/atv crowd...oh well. Watch the video.....they are their own worst enemies.

Let us worry about advocating and promoting our form of recreation...the moto/atv crowd has lots of CASH to spend promoting themselves without our help.

Tech question...is their any way to reduce the size of that video file??! It is HUGE! It would be useful as an "eduacational tool" to some of those that would put us in the same trail user category.

I downloaded this megafile at work and watched it.
A quick visit to the DCR site and a look at the map for summer use at Savoy shows more then half the park is open to ORV(under 1000lb) and there are abundant trails specified for their use.

I was thinking in the first few minutes, if we could get MTBers to ride straight through mud on the trail like that instead of going around and widening the trail that would be great. Later i saw the many sally lines and widening that was occuring anyway.

I also think the 4 stroke engine is a vast improvement over the 2 stroke whine i remember. It is still a disturbance. From what i could see they were on all road width trail, again where they are allowed.

Regardless of the activity there will always be those who participate with complete disregard for rules and other users. I did'nt see that happen in this video. The State holds many lands for the use of the public. A balance is struck in how the resource is shared. Hiking, ORV, MTB, logging, mining, hunting/fishing. All are uses for the land we share. Some are more destructive, yes, but to argue that is to place your favorite use on a scale where you could be banned next.

Why don't i like the ORV on the trail? Because when they are done using it it is not much good for anything else. That sucks for me but that is the way it goes when you have to share. When you think about it there are many ways sharing sucks for diffefent users.
My biking makes hikers have to move over.
Equestrians make me stop for them.
Hunters reduce the available wildlife for viewing.
XC skiers at GB farm close the trails to my winter riding.
Logging damages the view

The short version of my opinion is, I am for reponsible use by all. The video is good for showing what results from responsible ORV trail riding. For those who wish to use it to halt the progression of ORV use into new areas, I suggest you present it in just that way.

bill

[DAVID J]

Irresponsible trail users of any kind wreck trails.Look at Vietnam.I first rode there in '95.The trail were made by dirtbikes(just like the bulk of trail we ride).The trails were mostly loops,easy to follow.Now the loops are a pain to follow,due to short-cuts made by those who either can't or don't want to climb hills.The trails have been altered by cyclist,and not for the better. My point is don't get all high and mighty about cyclings trail impact,because for some bikes ruin trails.

[BG]

I downloaded this megafile at work and watched it.
A quick visit to the DCR site and a look at the map for summer use at Savoy shows more then half the park is open to ORV(under 1000lb) and there are abundant trails specified for their use.

I was thinking in the first few minutes, if we could get MTBers to ride straight through mud on the trail like that instead of going around and widening the trail that would be great. Later i saw the many sally lines and widening that was occuring anyway.

I also think the 4 stroke engine is a vast improvement over the 2 stroke whine i remember. It is still a disturbance. From what i could see they were on all road width trail, again where they are allowed.

Regardless of the activity there will always be those who participate with complete disregard for rules and other users. I did'nt see that happen in this video. The State holds many lands for the use of the public. A balance is struck in how the resource is shared. Hiking, ORV, MTB, logging, mining, hunting/fishing. All are uses for the land we share. Some are more destructive, yes, but to argue that is to place your favorite use on a scale where you could be banned next.

Why don't i like the ORV on the trail? Because when they are done using it it is not much good for anything else. That sucks for me but that is the way it goes when you have to share. When you think about it there are many ways sharing sucks for diffefent users.
My biking makes hikers have to move over.
Equestrians make me stop for them.
Hunters reduce the available wildlife for viewing.
XC skiers at GB farm close the trails to my winter riding.
Logging damages the view

The short version of my opinion is, I am for reponsible use by all. The video is good for showing what results from responsible ORV trail riding. For those who wish to use it to halt the progression of ORV use into new areas, I suggest you present it in just that way.

bill




All i can say is:

Agreed and EXQUISITELY said, Thank You.

BG

[mtbtom]

Irresponsible trail users of any kind wreck trails.Look at Vietnam.I first rode there in '95.The trail were made by dirtbikes(just like the bulk of trail we ride).The trails were mostly loops,easy to follow.Now the loops are a pain to follow,due to short-cuts made by those who either can't or don't want to climb hills.The trails have been altered by cyclist,and not for the better. My point is don't get all high and mighty about cyclings trail impact,because for some bikes ruin trails.


I don't think anyone has disputed the fact that all trail uses have impact (look at the hiking trails to the top of Monadnok - many of those have also been altered, and not for the better by hikers) but it is an undeniable fact is the impact of bicycles on trails and other trail users are a lot less than QUADS.

In this example, the impact to the trail by ATVs are beyond restoration and basically to the point where the trail has become unsusable by anyone (even the ATVs themselves). Multiuse?

[mtbtom]

Why don't i like the ORV on the trail? Because when they are done using it it is not much good for anything else. That sucks for me but that is the way it goes when you have to share. When you think about it there are many ways sharing sucks for diffefent users.
My biking makes hikers have to move over.
Equestrians make me stop for them.
Hunters reduce the available wildlife for viewing.
XC skiers at GB farm close the trails to my winter riding.
Logging damages the view


In terms of the inconvenience of "trail sharing" - equating the experience stepping aside and letting a horse & rider pass by to having the trails obliterated and rendered completely impassible by ATVs is a stretch of logic.

[DAVID J]

I totally agree about quads.They're the worst when it comes to trail damage.Many of my local trails are used by dirtbikes,and with the exeption of some poorly laid-out hills,the trails hold up great for mtbs.Its the quads that blow single track into dirt roads.I belive there are only 3 legal state forrest in MA that allow quads.I'm sure that there is'nt a atv dealer around that informs a customer of this before they buy one.

[zach11979]

The hatred by some of you towards atv riders is quite disturbing. Are mountain bikers better people than atv riders? Why should atv owners not be allowed to enjoy their hobby in some state parks? They pay taxes just like the rest of us and also pay atv registration fees. Currently atvs are only allowed in 6 state parks in the entire state of MA. How many parks are open to MTBs? 50-100? Most of the trails they are allowed to ride on are old logging roads which aren't to fun to bike on anyways. Also in reguards to the mud, riding through challenging mud holes is just as enjoyable to an atv rider as a challenging rock garden is to us bikers. So why not give them a few muddy rutted up trails to ride on and go mountain bike on the thousands of others. Its time to learn to share rather than hate. (F.Y.I. I do not own an atv)

[digger]

Looking at the video, I wonder if DCR is aware of the type of use that is going on. Beyond just the destruction of the trails. wetland resources protected under state law are seriously compromised. If someone dropped a dime and got DEP or a sympathetic conservation commission involved, I can't believe that someone's bacon might not start to sizzle.

The Berkshire Trail Council's website/forum seemed to indicate that Savoy is without a MOU with a responsible club. In my area, Georgetown-Rowley SF is open to ORV use, and it's the same story: contrary to DCR policy for opening these state lands to ORV use which specifies a formal arrangement with a responsible organization, the forest is open, no group is responsible for maintenance , self-policing, etc. DCR has no enforcement capability, relying on Mass Wildlife EPOs to keep the peace at ORV riding areas. They try but like other state agencies, they have limited staff and multiple responsibilities.

My point? That it should be made known to legislators and DCR officials that activities such as those shown on the video, are an indication that DCR management of ORV use is not functioning as it should, and either better management of the use is needed, or it should be eliminated.

[radair]

....Why should atv owners not be allowed to enjoy their hobby in some state parks? ......


Because, as this video clearly shows, they destroy the resource to the point where no one else can use it. What kind of people they are has nothing to do with it.

[Big Game]

There is a massive distinction that I wish to echo. For years, MXr's have been in the woods, causing very little harm. in fact, a lot of singletrack has been cut by MX'rs.

However, ATV's are the ultimate habitat killing machine. With a contact patch probably 400% greater than an MX'r, a stance as wide as a Yugo, a weight of 1000 pounds, with rider, and more power than a Yugo, these things are totally out of place in any type of sensitive environemts. The poeple operating them often have little skil (hence the attraction)l and so they're concern isn't really for riding with the least impact, Rather, it appears as if they intend to be a big man and create the largest "rooster tail" possible and in turn extract the most amount of damage in the woods. ATV's are fine for dirt roads, and certain paths at a low speed, but good lord...with the manner thet are actually used in, they have no place. I'd rather have 100 MX'rs ride on my singletrack than one quad. I'd rather have a 100 hikers. I rather have a hundred horsebackers. I'd rather have 100 dogs. It doesn't matter...hikers and bikers do 1 unit of damage, MX'rs and horses, 5 units, but quads do 1000 units. This is not a case of me hating one group and being a hyprocrit...it is the simple fact that quads have very little place in any type of even quasi-sentistive environment. If I was an MX'r I'd be fighting to make ATV's illegal....they're killed motorized access for all users when it is abundantly clear that ATV's have done and continue to do, the bulk of the damage.

[Geoff G.]

I think a good step in the right direction would be first to ban them during muddy times. like the park ranger would put up a sign at the enterance to the park when it was too wet.

[AA]

Savoy (where the video was taken) happens to be my favorite place to camp. Me and my wife have tried on several occasions to ride the "multi use" ORV trails there. Bottom line: they are a total mess. We have ended up on some epic death march hike-a-bike outing in that place. Honestly I'm surprised were are still married.

Last August we were there I figured the ORV trails must be dry. We grab the trail map and head out on the stuff we usually avoid figuring it will be ridable. After slogging through a few miles the trail starts to resemble the mess in the video. At this point I make a major tactical mistake. I decide we should continue forward..... How bad could it possible be? The answer is very bad. We had to muck through countless 2'+ foot deep mud holes. My wife Susan was a total trooper, fording thigh deep mud while carrying her bike. We finally got back on the dirt roads so we could actually pedal our bikes.

Bottom line is that ATV's do far more damage than other trail users. I like Big Games "unit of damage" comparison; it is hard to refute that ATV's do the most damage period.

[BG]

Personally, i'd rather have 1 atv'er to 100 mx'ers any day. 100 mx'ers can destroy singletrack just as well or better than anyone. Groton Town Forest for example.

BG

[Geoff G.]

yes, mx'ers are destructive too, but I'd rather have none of them.

[Jisch]

ATV's are the ultimate habitat killing machine. With a contact patch probably 400% greater than an MX'r, a stance as wide as a Yugo, a weight of 1000 pounds, with rider, and more power than a Yugo,


Don't forget the fact that many have a solid rear axle as well. This means if they are going to turn, the inside tire must spin. No matter how conservatively they ride, they will tear up the trail with that inside tire. I hate 'em.

There's a section of trail in Salmon River that has always been a favorite of mine, it goes down to a "party spot" next to Dickinson Creek. I've been riding there for 20 years, and I've seen MXers there the whole time. It remained relatively the same until last fall when the ATVs decided to make this spot their own. Now the trail down to the river is completely trashed. Amazing the damage they did. I've ridden over at the Snip during a NETRA Enduro - 140 bikes. Yeah, they do some damage, but I've ridden the weekend after and it hardly shows. Give me 100 mxers over one ATV any day.

John

[DAVID J]

GTF is a prime example of trails made by and for dirtbikes,adopted years later by mtbs,and destroyed by quads.IMO,GTF was fine 'till the quads showed up.FWIW,I've rode mtbs and dirtbikes there for the last 12 years.

[Big Game]

Don't forget the fact that many have a solid rear axle as well. This means if they are going to turn, the inside tire must spin. No matter how conservatively they ride, they will tear up the trail with that inside tire. I hate 'em.




Damn fine point, J...but to clarify, I do think some of them do have a rear differential, but many do not.

I think for a land manager having restrictions on weight and HP would go a long way to creating a plan that would benefit the most amount of users. A displacement restriction isn't a hot idea...I'd rather have someone with a 500 cc 4-stroke than a 2 stroke 125

[MissJean]

Why should atv owners not be allowed to enjoy their hobby in some state parks? They pay taxes just like the rest of us and also pay atv registration fees. Currently atvs are only allowed in 6 state parks in the entire state of MA.

Let’s put that argument to rest. Just because someone can buy something and they pay taxes does not mean that they get free reign. If someone buys a gun, that dosn't mean they can have target practice in their urban/suburban back yard. If someone buys a small plane, they can't use the roads as runways. If someone buys a jet ski, they can’t take it to the municipal pool.
If they are not willing to work with in the limits & restrictions then they shouldn't buy the product.

Let’s put that argument to rest. Just because someone can buy something and they pay taxes does not mean that they get free reign. If someone buys a gun, that dosn't mean they can have target practice in their urban/suburban back yard. If someone buys a small plane, they can't use the roads as runways. If someone buys a jet ski, they can’t take it to the municipal pool.
If they are not willing to work with in the limits & restrictions then they shouldn't buy the product.




well said

However, We all do have the right to change the restrictions through legeal means. If our argument is convincing and unchallanged then it is an easy thing to do. That is why it is important for us to reject those who wish to eliminate restrictions on ATVs and support those who wish to increase access for MTBs.

[MTBME]

I hate em too. While taking pictures in the forest yesterday I heard the sounds of ATV's in the near distance. Their illegal in the Dracut state forest. I positioned myself where I thought they would come out and sure enough, these 4 bozos on 4 wheelers come out of the forest.

I started taking pictures of them spinning out doing donuts. They saw me, approached me and asked why I was taking their pictures. I reminded them that what they are doing is illegal and to make matters worse, the section of the forest they were abusing, is land that was just donated to the Friends of the Forest of which I am a board member! They tried to give me a ******** story of how they were just riding in the back yard on private property. They were cocky and arrogant. I was hoping one of them would try to take a swing at me. I hate em. I hate em. I hate em.

[slapheadmofo]

There is a massive distinction that I wish to echo. For years, MXr's have been in the woods, causing very little harm. in fact, a lot of singletrack has been cut by MX'rs.

However, ATV's are the ultimate habitat killing machine. With a contact patch probably 400% greater than an MX'r, a stance as wide as a Yugo, a weight of 1000 pounds, with rider, and more power than a Yugo, these things are totally out of place in any type of sensitive environemts. The poeple operating them often have little skil (hence the attraction)l and so they're concern isn't really for riding with the least impact, Rather, it appears as if they intend to be a big man and create the largest "rooster tail" possible and in turn extract the most amount of damage in the woods. ATV's are fine for dirt roads, and certain paths at a low speed, but good lord...with the manner thet are actually used in, they have no place. I'd rather have 100 MX'rs ride on my singletrack than one quad. I'd rather have a 100 hikers. I rather have a hundred horsebackers. I'd rather have 100 dogs. It doesn't matter...hikers and bikers do 1 unit of damage, MX'rs and horses, 5 units, but quads do 1000 units. This is not a case of me hating one group and being a hyprocrit...it is the simple fact that quads have very little place in any type of even quasi-sentistive environment. If I was an MX'r I'd be fighting to make ATV's illegal....they're killed motorized access for all users when it is abundantly clear that ATV's have done and continue to do, the bulk of the damage.


Well put; I totally agree.
Quads suck.

[jh_on_the_cape]

first of all... quads do suck. once in a while they show up at otis and destroy singletrack.
it's partially the machines, and partially the idiots that choose them over other means (including MX)...

my real question is... why is the guy on a quad in the video wearing a camelback???? beer?? or is he chugging cytomax so his throttle thumb doesnt bonk?

maybe gasoline in there?

perhaps we should work towards rescinding the helmet requirement for quads?

[mtbtom]

See forwarded message below - I would suggest that if you want less ATV access on Massachusetts State Lands you contact the members of the Environment, Natural Resources & Agriculture committee listed below and inform them of your opinion and perhaps point them towards the video of the Berkshire Trails Council trail destruction ride to make your point.

I've heard that the State is going to reexamine it's ATV policy in the coming months. If enough people speak up perhaps we can make a change for the better in this regard.

From ATV web site:
--------------------------------------------------------
The Massachusetts House of Representatives made its committee appointments yesterday. Of particular interest to club members would be members of the committee on Environment, Natural Resources & Agriculture. This committee is charged with hearing bills that may affect our right(priviledge) to ride in state forests, etc. If you know anyone on the list, please make sure to call them and congratulate them on their assignment and, of course, put in a plug for the retention of existing riding areas and the expansion of new riding areas throughout the state. Letters are good too. You can email them as well. Here is a link to the state house with names, addresses, and email addresses.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/memmenuh.htm

The new committee is as follows:

ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL RESOURCES & AGRICULTURE

Chair Frank I. Smizik of Brookline
Vice Chair Stephen Kulik or Worthington
Douglas W. Petersen of Marblehead
William M. Straus of Mattapoisett
Anne M. Gobi of Spencer
Matthew C. Patrick of Falmouth
Peter V. Kocot of Northampton
Michael F. Rush of Boston
Denis E. Guyer of Dalton

Remember, if we don't make some noise, then we will eventually lose more riding areas. The environmentalists, horse people, hikers, etc. all want us to go away and they have lobbyists at the state house lobbying for more "open space" to the exclusion of motorized use. Please, call, write, or email at least one of these committee members today. Thank you.
_________________
Polaris 330 Magnum w/ 25" Dirt Devils
Warn Winch and Warn Snowplow
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[BG]

"Let’s put that argument to rest. Just because someone can buy something and they pay taxes does not mean that they get free reign. If someone buys a gun, that dosn't mean they can have target practice in their urban/suburban back yard. If someone buys a small plane, they can't use the roads as runways. If someone buys a jet ski, they can’t take it to the municipal pool.
If they are not willing to work with in the limits & restrictions then they shouldn't buy the product."



Ideally true. But one major practical difference, the laws against firearm discharge, access to roadways in lieu runways for aircraft, and usage of jet skis in municipal pools, generally have a successfull plan for enforcement. Unlike illegal motorized vehicle usage on state properties. Without working enforcement stratigies, yes the argument still stands true, they can and will go/do anywhere/anything they want.
Keep this in mind when negotiating restrictions, try to force some type of enforcement plan, a difficult thing to do given it takes money, time and actual committment on the part of the authorities which have been persuaded to enact those very restrictions.

BG

[digger]

Another avenue to pursue is the Stewardship Council at DCR, which seems to be new. http://www.mass.gov/dcr/stewardship_council.htm There are minutes of a meeting last September. The ATV aside, it may be good to have PK or another NEMBA rep attend future meetings which are open to the public. An ORV guy from Fall River area can be spouting off about the need to support all types of recreation including motorized. Maybe it works at Fall River, but the management/enforcement plan is adrift in many other locations.

[TrailBate]

as part of Trail Maintenace programs, can NEMBA also work to put large rocks/boulders at trailheads and other points to discourage ATV's?

[TrailBate]

For those of you who want to email the Reps listed above (and I KNOW you want to), here is all their email addresses:

Rep.FrankIsraelSmizik@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.StephenKulik@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.DouglasPetersen@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.WilliamStraus@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.AnneGobi@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.MatthewPatrick@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.PeterKocot@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.MichaelRush@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.DenisGuyer@Hou.State.MA.US

[jh_on_the_cape]

For those of you who want to email the Reps listed above (and I KNOW you want to), here is all their email addresses:

Rep.FrankIsraelSmizik@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.StephenKulik@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.DouglasPetersen@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.WilliamStraus@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.AnneGobi@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.MatthewPatrick@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.PeterKocot@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.MichaelRush@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.DenisGuyer@Hou.State.MA.US


Thanks for posting those addresses. To help others, fell free to copy and paste (with edits!!) my letter to my rep:

Dear Rep. Patrick,
I am a voter in Falmouth and am writing to congratulate you on your appointment to the committee on Environment, Natural Resources & Agriculture.
I encourage you to work towards restricting ATV (Quadrunner) use on Commonwealth land. They destroy habitat, and make trails unusable for hikers, equestrians, bicycles and even motocross bikes. From my experience, all other users of state forest land despise these ATVs and want them restricted to small areas which have already been disturbed/destroyed such as abandoned dumps and gravel pits.
Thank you for reading my letter.
Sincerely,
Jason Hyatt

[TrailBate]

"..Should be restricted to dumps and pits"

I love it.

[jh_on_the_cape]

For those of you who want to email the Reps listed above (and I KNOW you want to), here is all their email addresses:

Rep.FrankIsraelSmizik@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.StephenKulik@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.DouglasPetersen@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.WilliamStraus@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.AnneGobi@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.MatthewPatrick@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.PeterKocot@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.MichaelRush@Hou.State.MA.US, Rep.DenisGuyer@Hou.State.MA.US


bounced:
Rep.FrankIsraelSmizik@hou.state.ma.us
Rep.MichaelRush@Hou.State.MA.US

this is from Guyer
"Thanks for contacting me. I am not a fan of ATV's in our state parks/state lands either."
and from Patrick
"I will support the restrictions."

[Geoff G.]

I sent one to dcr, since they opperate the park

[Britathedog]

I hate em too. While taking pictures in the forest yesterday I heard the sounds of ATV's in the near distance. Their illegal in the Dracut state forest. I positioned myself where I thought they would come out and sure enough, these 4 bozos on 4 wheelers come out of the forest.

I started taking pictures of them spinning out doing donuts. They saw me, approached me and asked why I was taking their pictures. I reminded them that what they are doing is illegal and to make matters worse, the section of the forest they were abusing, is land that was just donated to the Friends of the Forest of which I am a board member! They tried to give me a ******** story of how they were just riding in the back yard on private property. They were cocky and arrogant. I was hoping one of them would try to take a swing at me. I hate em. I hate em. I hate em.


I know what you mean. I almost had to adjust one of these guys! :P

[MTBME]

Lets see if we can get a couple of shoulder fired stinger missles out here. Hell everybody else got em.

[mtbtom]

FYI: The video in question has been removed from the ATV website. (hmmmm... wonder why??)

But it will continue to be available for download here:

http://18.85.21.43/7-11-04.avi

[steve_b]

Could have shot the same footage at October Mtn or up on the Skyline Trail. :o

[flyinelvis]

Bill,
I couldn't have said it any better...why doesn't being stuck in water at open throttle seem like fun to me? Nice job with the video!

[C.P.]

Another avenue to pursue is the Stewardship Council at DCR, which seems to be new. http://www.mass.gov/dcr/stewardship_council.htm There are minutes of a meeting last September. The ATV aside, it may be good to have PK or another NEMBA rep attend future meetings which are open to the public. An ORV guy from Fall River area can be spouting off about the need to support all types of recreation including motorized. Maybe it works at Fall River, but the management/enforcement plan is adrift in many other locations.



Reading the list of (public) attendees, for the meeting minutes shown - it's obvious that NEMBA could possibly benefit having a rep at future meetings - I saw that NETRA (MX group) had a rep there....of course, with the recent shakeup in the DCR (who ran these meetings), it's not clear as to whether they are still actively held.

[geezer]

That NETRA group is the pack that tore Arcadia SP in R. I. up a few years ago. Glad to say they were instrumental in limiting or almost doing away with any more M/X events on public land in Rhode Island!!!!!!

[ATV_User]

Interesting that you guys are so quick to point fingers. I will be back to post a video for you guys showing us pulling load after load of rock and fill into the forests to fill some of these holes. I will show draining of these holes, replacement of water bars, cleanning / installation of water bars, plus a whole lot more.

What you guys seem to forget is that we all fall into the same category. I would be more than happy to post information about renegade mountain bikers too (since the DCR has the information, long story, but I'm sure you could pick up a magazine last year and figure that out), if it interested me to sling crap your way.

It is obvious that you really don't understand the whole game in the state. Maybe your organization should come to the berkshire trails council meetings. It might interest you to hear the whole story.

[Harryhonda250]

You guys need to move on. If you see ATVers riding out of season or not on legal trails then call the police or other law enforcement agencies. Posting photos with bullseyes is not constructive.

Riding through a mudhole on a legal ATV trail during the ATV season on a Mass registered ATV is legal. If you don't like it then move. If you are truly worried about these forests then go after the logging industry or people building new homes.

[MissJean]

. I will be back to post a video for you guys showing us pulling load after load of rock and fill into the forests to fill some of these holes. I will show draining of these holes, replacement of water bars, cleanning / installation of water bars, plus a whole lot more.

What you guys seem to forget is that we all fall into the same category. I would be more than happy to post information about renegade mountain bikers too (since the DCR has the information, long story, but I'm sure you could pick up a magazine last year and figure that out), if it interested me to sling crap your way.


That would be good to see.
I think if you were to go over the posts you would see that the main reasons given for disliking atvs are the seemingly total disregard (most?) atv’ers have for land use regulations and not doing trail work. If you guys are doing something to change that, that is super. Spread the word, get more atv’ers involved.

Yes, there is a problem in mtbing with illegal trails, trail damage and people not taking responsibility - just like there is in hiking, and equestrian trail riding. But those 3 user groups have created organizations dedicated to trail work & trail use education to try to fix the damage.

But it comes down to the degree of the damage, and face it, atvs cause greater damage. And until you can get atv’ers to change their attitude about that, atvs are going to be on a lot of folks *#!& list.

[TrailBate]

You guys need to move on. If you see ATVers riding out of season or not on legal trails then call the police or other law enforcement agencies. Posting photos with bullseyes is not constructive.

Riding through a mudhole on a legal ATV trail during the ATV season on a Mass registered ATV is legal. If you don't like it then move. If you are truly worried about these forests then go after the logging industry or people building new homes.


Nobody here (that I know of) is complaining about ATV's on ATV trails. We're complaining about ATV's riding on trails closed to motor vehicles, and singletracks.
Most mtbers can give you specific examples of trails that were made unrideable by atv use. Do mtbers make trails unusable for everyone else?
So if the previous poster has some video of a ruined singletrack being returned to it's original singletrack state after ATV use, I'd love to see it.
No doubt there are bad MTBers who cause damage and ride illegally, and they too should be punished. But it is nothing compared to damage that ATV users do.
And yes, we go after loggers and any other kind of land developers too.

[nhiker]

You guys need to move on. If you see ATVers riding out of season or not on legal trails then call the police or other law enforcement agencies. Posting photos with bullseyes is not constructive.

Riding through a mudhole on a legal ATV trail during the ATV season on a Mass registered ATV is legal. If you don't like it then move. If you are truly worried about these forests then go after the logging industry or people building new homes.


I actually agree with much of what Harry says here. The Bullseye pics are "not constructive" And when we see illegal ATV use yes we should call the cops.

And as far as legal ATV use goes mud holes or not they have as much right as I do to be there as a hiker and a biker.

What I believe this string is suppose to be is a discussion of illegal ATV trail use. People are venting because this is a rampant problem. We do call the cops and that causes them to come out and on occasion summon some offenders. They post and block off many trails and the offending group rips out the signs and goes around or removes the blockage. As far as ATV_users point that ATV users do plenty of trail work and are involved in trail maintenance.... Great..... please keep it up spread the word I would like you to post some links to this! Problem is way to few appear to be doing this...I and those in my chapter perform hundreds of hours of trail work and have never seen an ATV trail day...This is a discussion point. But we see a ton of damage caused by illegal use. You guys need to do what the mountainbiking community has been doing. Police your own. Educate the users about trail etiquette. Organize and change public perception. I believe that we do have similar friends and enemies similar causes. I believe you folks need to have a place to ride and hope you continue to have that freedom. But unfortunately the mud your bad apples splash gets thrown on us to. That is part of the reason for the hostility coming from this side.
That said until we see some large-scale improvement coming from the ATV community as a whole I can't get behind access to some of the parks they are arguing for.
(See other string)

[ATV_User]

Having been to a couple of the berkshire trails council meetings, I can tell you that each forest where ORV use is permitted HAS to be work hours performed there. That is how we keep our right to ride. We are working on the education portion, but it is in its infancy. The problem is, in reality, that 10 years ago, when the work for riding was started, the volunteers could keep up with the traffic. Now the sport has grown and until that education that you are talking about gets out there, we will continue to have a problem.

As for the "ATV Bad Apples", there is nothing we can do about them. Numberous time I have stopped people comming out of non-sanctioned trails and tried to talk to them. So listed, most do not. The Bad apples are smaller than you think, and every sport has them.

I can guarantee you, that all the trails we ride are sanctioned trails, and we are a club like yours, promoting responsible riding and trail maintenance.

[ATV_User]

Oh yeah, as for opening new places to ride. I have difficulty getting behind that as well, until a new "process" can be put in place to keep the trails maintained. The places out west and in the south that are open to everyone (ex. Hattfield McCoy), have this process in place and everyone play in harmony.

[mtbtom]

Not much responsible riding going on in your clubs flick though.

[MTBME]

"You guys need to move on. If you see ATVers riding out of season or not on legal trails then call the police or other law enforcement agencies. Posting photos with bullseyes is not constructive."

The police generally don't stop what there doing to address a problem with ATV'ers out in the woods. They got bigger fish to fry. In my back yard the forest spreads throughout 3 communities, Lowell, Dracut and Tyngsboro. Dracut not interested in ATV's riding in Tyngsboro and vise versa. The ATV'ers know how the game is played and play it quite well.

Meanwhile the ranger for the forest tells us he has no power to stop them. He gives them a tonge lashing, they give him the finger. Meanwhile last years singletrack starts to look like this years doubletrack. Hey, we built those trails. I didn't see any of those *******s out there working the trails. They bring nothing to the table. So in my opinion, the bullseye stays. They are the problem and they will be dealt with.

[ATV-RIDER]

Wow. There are many many things in this topic that need to be addressed and corrected. I must say however I am very surprised to see this type of topic. Everyone seems to forget "together we stand, divided we fall". We are all some type of user group, and as such should be working together to preserve everyone’s right to enjoy the outdoors and public lands. The park systems are large enough (Mass is 8th largest in the country) for EVERYONE to use and enjoy.

First of all:

The average ATV rider is a male 48 years old age. These are not renegade non-skilled teenage riders. Yes, there are users in this sport that are not responsible users. There are in EVERY type of sport or activity, from bird watcher to hunter to hiker to mtn biker. I would have to believe your user group is equally frustrated that the few bad apples in your sport that continuously get the negative press from those groups who oppose your presence. Most atv riders are folks, just like you looking to enjoy the outdoors. They are not selling drugs near our schools, not stealing from neighborhood stores, raping or murdering. They are people enjoying the outdoors!!!

The maintenance issue. Do you realize how many millions of dollars worth of FREE VOLUNTEER labor has been performed in the state parks, on multi-use trails for everyone to enjoy? I don't see any other user group contributing in this way. The work we perform is well beyond repairing trails impacted by our use. Our ATV club has put back thousands of dollars into infustructure improvements as well.

Another point. Do some of the trails need some work? Absolutely. Millions of dollars each year are set aside as part of the gas tax to be used for trail development and maintenance. (Formally called SYMMS grants). This money is to be used for motorized and non-motorized use. If officials from the State had spent this money for its intended use, this would no longer be an issue.

ATVing is the largest growing sport right now. Sales are at nearly 1 million ATV annually. And this is not a minor investment. My most recent machine cost more than my first NEW car.

This is just a start. This could go one for days. Ever user group keeps bashing the other user groups, and it gets us NOWHERE. You do not make yourself look better by making someone else look bad. The bottom line is again we are all responsible user groups on state lands, and should be working together as such to preserve what we currently have, and hopefully expand upon it.

Tom,

Those are legal Atv Trails being used in that video. What iresponsibility are you talking about?

The point is that those trails are what results from legal, responsible ATV usage. If your parks trails dont look like that and you dont want them to then the video helps your argument.

If you present the video as a group of iresponsible riders then it can be discounted as a small group of renigades not representative of the majority. That hurts your argument.

ATV users are allowed there, on those trails, and that is fine with me. I will not attempt to ride a bike, hike, or horseback in that area. That is public land set aside for the ATV use and they are welcome to it.
If , however, someone presents an argument that ATV usage will not have significant impact on a trail system when overseen by responsible riders, then i would direct their attention to this video.

[TrailBate]

Wow. There are many many things in this topic that need to be addressed and corrected. I must say however I am very surprised to see this type of topic. Everyone seems to forget "together we stand, divided we fall". We are all some type of user group, and as such should be working together to preserve everyone’s right to enjoy the outdoors and public lands. The park systems are large enough (Mass is 8th largest in the country) for EVERYONE to use and enjoy.

First of all:

The average ATV rider is a male 48 years old age. These are not renegade non-skilled teenage riders. Yes, there are users in this sport that are not responsible users. There are in EVERY type of sport or activity, from bird watcher to hunter to hiker to mtn biker. I would have to believe your user group is equally frustrated that the few bad apples in your sport that continuously get the negative press from those groups who oppose your presence. Most atv riders are folks, just like you looking to enjoy the outdoors. They are not selling drugs near our schools, not stealing from neighborhood stores, raping or murdering. They are people enjoying the outdoors!!!

The maintenance issue. Do you realize how many millions of dollars worth of FREE VOLUNTEER labor has been performed in the state parks, on multi-use trails for everyone to enjoy? I don't see any other user group contributing in this way. The work we perform is well beyond repairing trails impacted by our use. Our ATV club has put back thousands of dollars into infustructure improvements as well.

Another point. Do some of the trails need some work? Absolutely. Millions of dollars each year are set aside as part of the gas tax to be used for trail development and maintenance. (Formally called SYMMS grants). This money is to be used for motorized and non-motorized use. If officials from the State had spent this money for its intended use, this would no longer be an issue.

ATVing is the largest growing sport right now. Sales are at nearly 1 million ATV annually. And this is not a minor investment. My most recent machine cost more than my first NEW car.

This is just a start. This could go one for days. Ever user group keeps bashing the other user groups, and it gets us NOWHERE. You do not make yourself look better by making someone else look bad. The bottom line is again we are all responsible user groups on state lands, and should be working together as such to preserve what we currently have, and hopefully expand upon it.





I think this argument is a bit misplaced. Nobody cares how old an ATV rider is, or how expensive his bikes are. It's a matter of how compatible ATV's are with nature and state parks. State parks are for EVERYONE to enjoy nature.
You can hear ATV's coming a mile away, and you can tell instantly by looking at a trail that an ATV has been there. ATV use destroys enjoyment of a park for everyone else. How many times has an ATV rider come upon a trail and thought to himself, "dammitt, mountain bikers/hikers have been here!". MTBers say this about ATV's all the time.
The fact that the ATV users who destroy trail systems and ride illegally are just "bad apples" is no excuse either. One bad apple can do extraordinary damage in one single ride. And there are way too many "bad apples"
ATV's are loud, fast, destructive, and polluting, and have no place in a public parks system.

[ATV-RIDER]

Not much responsible riding going on in your clubs flick though.

According to whose definition of "responsible"? Why do you claim this is not responsible?

Someone earlier mentioned riding in Milford at little V. How is that responsible - it's trespassing. The Milford Daily News had a story regarding Mtn Bike websites and local bike shops promoting riding there, and it has been illegal to ride there for years. It's private property.

Our Club does not promote illegal activities, and actually steering folks away from such activities.

[mtbtom]

Bill, those aren't ATV trails - they're "multi-use" trails.

[mtbtom]

Not much responsible riding going on in your clubs flick though.

According to whose definition of "responsible"? Why do you claim this is not responsible?



If you consider:

-Running a quad into a mud hole and spinning all 4 wheels around until the ATV is stuck, the rut is 4' deep, and the trail is impassable by everyone.

-Riding "off trail" and and blowing the trail out to the width of a major road.

-Sumberging an ATV into a river that likely drains into a watershed or some home owner's well...

..."responsible" then I guess there really is a big"problem".

Somehow I don't think the quad club sees it as responsible either, which I suppose is why they pulled the video down off thier web site.

[slapheadmofo]

Not much responsible riding going on in your clubs flick though.


Touche.

You could run every biker in NE through that same area regularly for years without causing the amount of damage that group did in a day. Quads suck. Why should everyone have to deal w/ all the damage simply because some people refuse to learn to ride on two wheels? At least dirt bikes leave a possibility of keeping a trail a trail rather than a rutted out road. Only people that qualify for a handicapped license plate should be allowed to take those things into the woods.

You guys should be ashamed of the amount of damage you do. Same way I was when I used to go to the Fells and saw the damage idiots on mtbs did to the off-limits trails there, or when I ride at Nam and see all the trail braids where people have shown up at a place famous for technical riding only to consistently ride around things like 6" logs (another thing I see from ATVs all the time - tell me there isn't enough suspension on those things to get over a log - do you really need to go around EVERYTHING?) It almost seems that the whole draw of ATVs for a lot of users is strictly to rip stuff up (like in the video), and since they require minimal skill to operate, they allow a lot of yahoos to get out and do a ton of damage really easily.

Just cause it's legal now, doesn't mean it will stay that way. No need to move, as ATV riders are there own worst enemies. Sooner or later they'll get themselves shut out of just about everywhere.

[TrailBate]

I have an idea!
Why don't we designate ALL state parks to different individual users, and close them to everyone else.
Like, some parks will be open to ATV's and nobody else, others will be open to hiking, and nobody else, etc. And the users and the user groups are responsible for the maintanence of the parks and all associated costs.
We'll see how fast ATV parks become unusable, and ATV groups go bankrupt trying to maintain them.

[BG]

OK. This one's already dumb enough. I got nothing.

BG

[slapheadmofo]

Someone earlier mentioned riding in Milford at little V. How is that responsible - it's trespassing. The Milford Daily News had a story regarding Mtn Bike websites and local bike shops promoting riding there, and it has been illegal to ride there for years. It's private property.



Did you know that this group owns a nice chunk of that land now?

Bikers are definitely not innocent of poaching and/or building renegade trails. Truthfully, a quad or dirt bike riding somewhere that's technically off limits to them really doesn't bother me much as long as they're not trashing the place, which pretty much by definition means sticking to fire roads. It's IMPOSSIBLE to ride a quad on a narrow trail w/o ruining it. That's what makes them different than everything else out there IMO.

[kernel crash]

"At least dirt bikes leave a possibility of keeping a trail a trail rather than a rutted out road. "

That's a good point. Some of the best trails I have ridden were cut by dirt bikes. They can occasionally blow out the corners at times but overall they are more compatable with MTB'ers. I don't paint them with the same brush as the 4 wheel crowd.

[TrailBate]

Luckily, ATV's are not allowed on state parks from November to May, and I KNOW nobody has seen ANY ATV's during that time....

[TrailBate]

I also noticed that October mountain is open to ATV's with an agreement that the ORV organizations will help maintain the trails.
Has anyone seen the "multi-use" trails on October mountain? They are not "maintained" by any stretch of the imagination.

[ATV-RIDER]

I also noticed that October Mountain is open to ATV's with an agreement that the ORV organizations will help maintain the trails.
Has anyone seen the "multi-use" trails on October Mountain? They are not "maintained" by any stretch of the imagination.

Actually, October MTN had 588 hours of labor performed (and verified by the DCR) there by various clubs.


Luckily, ATV's are not allowed on state parks from November to May, and I KNOW nobody has seen ANY ATV's during that time....

Kinda like we have never seen a mountain biker trespassing before, huh?

This is becoming silly. We can continue to bash the other user groups all day. There are studies that show no one user group has a consistently greater impact than others in the state parks. There are other sources available reciting the "terrible impact" hikers have on the forests. Others tout the "horrible damage" mountain bikers leave behind. Why don't we look to get the bird watchers thrown out of the parks, the way they disturb the wildlife is unforgivable.

There is no reason at all each user group can't have access to their public land for equal use. It works well in other parts of the country, and can work here. I understand mountain bikers might not like trails with deep water or mud. Know what, choose a different trail. With the mileage available to mountain biker riders in this state, the approx 200 miles available to motorized use is a drop in the bucket to what you have available.

[mtbtom]

This is becoming silly. We can continue to bash the other user groups all day. There are studies that show no one user group has a consistently greater impact than others in the state parks.


Now that's what I call SILLY.

[felixatvtc]

There is no reason at all each user group can't have access to their public land for equal use. It works well in other parts of the country, and can work here.
I agree with this IF all users treat the land with equal respect. From what i've read and/or seen in person ATVs (as hard as this may be to believe) do a lot more damage then the bikes/hikers/horses.

I understand mountain bikers might not like trails with deep water or mud. Know what, choose a different trail. With the mileage available to mountain biker riders in this state, the approx 200 miles available to motorized use is a drop in the bucket to what you have available.
You're solution is to have others change for you? So you're saying that because you were too stupid to research on where you could legally ride your expensive ATV before you bought it we should feel bad for you? Everyone else has to suffer because now your sad that you spent all your money and now you can't ride places that you want??
Doesn't make a whole lot of sence to be, but wtf do i know :-X

[Jisch]

ATV-Rider:

I appreciate you guys coming over here and talking, its good to see someone actually discuss this. Its also good to see that there is at least a subset of ATVers who care.

That being said, I have to say that I am disgusted by the damage done by ATVs to trails in CT. I won't go into details, as others have put it more eloquently than I, but nothing worse than discovering your favorite singletrack has been turned into a muddy, rutted disaster. I've seen this happen within a week's time - amazing!

A lot of the trails I ride were cut by MXers, and I have even ridden on NETRA race days at the local state forest, even with 140 bikes screaming through the woods, they trails are back to "normal" within a week or so, typically that's not the case with even one ATV.

The thing is that the hikers or whomever could say the same about what MTBers do, but from my perspective it would take a thousand careless MTBers to do what one careless ATVer can do. I guess that's the point, one "bad apple" on the ATV side does a lot more destruction than one "bad apple" on a MTB.

John

[TrailBate]

Actually, October MTN had 588 hours of labor performed (and verified by the DCR) there by various clubs.

that must be why these trails are completely impassable to most trail users. I can see the ORV trail club now.
"hey, Mike, what should we do about this trail?"
"well, Bob, how about we dump a few tons of rocks and boulders in it. That'll cover up the ruts."
"Good idea, Mike!"






There is no reason at all each user group can't have access to their public land for equal use. ..... I understand mountain bikers might not like trails with deep water or mud. Know what, choose a different trail.


I see. "there is no reason MTBers can't enjoy deep, muddy, rutted, 10 ft wide swaths of damage. If you can't, go someplace else."

hmmm, can't figure out WHY nobody likes ATV riders.

How can you say in one breath that ATV's don't do any more damage than anyone else, then say if you don't like the damage, go someplace else? The reason you shouldn't have equal access is because you destroy what you have access to, and even what you DON'T have access to.

[ATV-RIDER]

You're solution is to have others change for you? So you're saying that because you were too stupid to research on where you could legally ride your expensive ATV before you bought it we should feel bad for you? Everyone else has to suffer because now your sad that you spent all your money and now you can't ride places that you want??
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be, but wtf do i know

Research where I can legally ride? I am legally riding, in legal places. I think you missed part of this discussion. Currently the trails we are discussing ARE legal to ORV use. As far as changing for me, is that not what others here are proposing for mtn bikers? . If you ride in Hopkinton, or Douglas for example, and you don't like the conditions of the trails, you choose to ride a different one. How is this different? These are legal trails for different type of user group to use.


The thing that strikes me as funny is the soapbox everyone seems to be preaching from here. Again, there are some folks from every user group that does not play by the rules. There is no way each and every one of you can state, "you have never bent the rules" for where or how you ride. I'm not looking to bend the rules here, and am not advocating anyone else should either. But to preach about a user group having members that does so is hypocritical. For all of us. Motorized or not.

[TrailBate]

The thing that strikes me as funny is the soapbox everyone seems to be preaching from here. Again, there are some folks from every user group that does not play by the rules. There is no way each and every one of you can state, "you have never bent the rules" for where or how you ride. I'm not looking to bend the rules here, and am not advocating anyone else should either. But to preach about a user group having members that does so is hypocritical. For all of us. Motorized or not.



there is a huge difference between a mountain biker breaking the rules, and an ATV. Most uneducated mountain bikers make new trails (which educated bikers block), or trespass. ATV riders ruin the trails. big difference. If ATV riders try to open up new places for them to ride, I will oppose it, because they destroy the park for everyone else. That is the big difference between ATV's and mountain bikes. You cannot go on most hiking trails and be able to tell if a mountain bike has been there or not, but ATV damage is immediate and obvious. This is not about equal rights to equal access to public lands, it is about prohibiting users that damage parks and trails.

[slapheadmofo]

I'd also like to say I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this here with us. And it's good to know that at least a few ATV riders who are trying to play by the rules, but...

You can't seriously compare the impact of a bird watcher with that of a quad. C'mon now, let's at least keep touch w/ reality here. All propoganda aside, we've all spent enough time in the woods to know that a single pass on a muddy or narrow trail with a quad can easily do more damage than years of hiking and biking. The amount of damage a quad causes is of a much greater magnitude than any of the other user group, including dirt bikes. I've never seen a 100' long, 20' wide mud bog in a state forest dug by anything other than quads.

With the amount of quads out there versus the amount of legal trails available, it stands to reason that the MAJORITY of ATV use in the state is likely illegal. I've very rarely seen an ATV being operated legally (let alone responsibly) in MA since they started making them, and I've spent a good amount of time in the woods. There's a huge difference between 'a few bad apples' and 'standard operating procedure'. In most non-motorized groups (excepting paintballers and kids having keg parties) the majority seems to try to be responsible users. Not so with ATVs.

[ATV-RIDER]

Jisch

Not that I am looking to throw other ORV users under the bus, but studies have shown dirtbike have more actual trail impact than ATV. The same agreement could be made about mtn bikes. The weight is more evenly distributed over a larger tire surface....

This is not the point however. Any user group with a specific agenda can get documentation to back-up their position. I am not disagreeing about damage that can be done by someone, motorized or not, that does not care about what they are doing.


hmmm, can't figure out WHY nobody likes ATV riders.

This cracks me up. With over 25,000 registered ORVs in the state, and probably the same registered with regular DMV tags or unregistered altogether - yeah, must be a dieing sport. No one likes it.

I stick with my earlier comment. There is no way at all the approx 200 miles of legal trail open to ORVs in this state negatively impact the enjoyment mtn bikers, who have access to what, 1000's of trail mileage?

[ATV-RIDER]

MAJORITY of ATV use in the state is likely illegal.

In places like Douglas or Hopkinton, Myles Standish, yes ALL ORV use is illegal. The state parks that allow ORV use, no, I don't agree.

Hatfield McCoy is a trail system in West Virginia that is currently under construction. Presently, there are over 600 miles open to ORV use, and will have 2200 miles when completed. This will be available for years to come. If proper maintenance can be performed there, why not here? They don't destroy trials. A muddy trial or mud hole is not destroying a trail. It may be undesirable for certain user groups, and attractive to others.

There are trails dedicated to non-motorized use only, and this is one of the reasons why. Every trail in each forest does not have to be mtn bike compatible.

[mtbtom]

Not that I am looking to throw other ORV users under the bus, but studies have shown dirtbike have more actual trail impact than ATV. The same agreement could be made about mtn bikes. The weight is more evenly distributed over a larger tire surface....


HUH ? What "studies" are these ? Seriously post links to them or paste the text to the forum, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would be interested in reading them. ( The crack smoke is getting thick 'round here. )

[ATV-RIDER]

I'd be glad to. I will try and get them posted by Monday.

Crack smoke? Why is it when some folks disagree about topics, they resort to personal attacks or sarcasm? I'd be happy to have an intelligent conversation with anyone regarding this issue, but giving shots back and forth doesn’t accomplish much.

Years ago when all user groups worked together, the possibilities where much greater. Since that time, every user group has gone their own way and continues to bash the other. Amazing. The hard-core environmentalists love this, according to them no one should be out there.

[TrailBate]

Jisch

Not that I am looking to throw other ORV users under the bus, but studies have shown dirtbike have more actual trail impact than ATV. The same agreement could be made about mtn bikes. The weight is more evenly distributed over a larger tire surface....

This is not the point however. Any user group with a specific agenda can get documentation to back-up their position. I am not disagreeing about damage that can be done by someone, motorized or not, that does not care about what they are doing.


hmmm, can't figure out WHY nobody likes ATV riders.

This cracks me up. With over 25,000 registered ORVs in the state, and probably the same registered with regular DMV tags or unregistered altogether - yeah, must be a dieing sport. No one likes it.

I stick with my earlier comment. There is no way at all the approx 200 miles of legal trail open to ORVs in this state negatively impact the enjoyment mtn bikers, who have access to what, 1000's of trail mileage?



your grasp of logic is impressive. If I said "nobody likes Canadiens", does that mean that there are no canadiens?

and a 400 pound 4-wheel ATV with a 180 pound rider does LESS damage than a mountain bike? YOU, sir, are off your rocker. Do you wear your helmet when you ride? I guess this means that an 18-wheeler tractor trailer does the least amount of damage than all of us? On behalf of all mountain bikers, I apolagize to all ATV riders for ruining your trails for you. We will try to be more careful. We will try to stop destroying the mud pits and gravel gutters so that you can keep riding them, even though you didn't create them and they don't even exist because of your impressive "trail maintanence."


btw, ATV's have to be registered to be operated on the LEGAL parks.

[TrailBate]

Good thing this wasn't a mountain bike, or this trail would be a MESS!!

[digger]

ATV-rider

Do you know if there is a current MOU with a responsible ORV organization for Savoy? I know that at Georgetwon-Rowley SF there is none and has been none for a number of years, so no maintenance or self-policing is going on. I believe that on the BTC forum I read that Savoy did not have a current MOU.

The significance of the video to me is that ATV use is causing substantial environmental damage to commonwealth (our) land. That trail, if it's a legal ORV trail, should be closed to that use until some repairs are made and conditions allow sustainable use that does not substantially degrade the trail or wetland resources. I can't believe that the most hardened DCR manager would find the activity depicted in the video as an acceptable use of public land. If ATVs wreck a trail and it is closed as a result, too bad.

[kernel crash]

The common point mountain bikers are making here is we have all seen the destruction up close and personal. The blown out trails. The vegatation, brush and small trees mowed down. The ruts filled with mud / water where they didn't use to exist. From what I've seen, this stuff is usually beyond repair. And why bother if they are just going to come back? That destruction really takes away from the natural beauty that is the forest.

[TrailBate]

The title of this photo series is called "scenic trails". Check out the last few pictures. ;D

http://www.mudanddirt.com/events/012905scenictrailsb/


yep, nothing like enjoying nature!

[ATV_User]

Not much responsible riding going on in your clubs flick though.


What's not responsible. Are we off the trail? Just because we go through the mud vs. around it doesn't make it irresponsible.

[mtbtom]

Crack smoke? Why is it when some folks disagree about topics, they resort to personal attacks or sarcasm? I'd be happy to have an intelligent conversation with anyone regarding this issue, but giving shots back and forth doesn’t accomplish much.


Consider it a colloquial expression, not an insult. In other words, your opinion that mountain bikes do MORE damage than quads, because with a quad the weight is distributed over 4 wheels is pretty frickin far fetched.

Since you asked, let's have an intelligent conversation about how mountain bikes (or dirt bikes for that matter ) do MORE damage than quads - you can start by explaining the 4 wheel/weight distribution thing.

[ATV_User]

Wow. There are many many things in this topic that need to be addressed and corrected. I must say however I am very surprised to see this type of topic. Everyone seems to forget "together we stand, divided we fall". We are all some type of user group, and as such should be working together to preserve everyone’s right to enjoy the outdoors and public lands. The park systems are large enough (Mass is 8th largest in the country) for EVERYONE to use and enjoy.

First of all:

The average ATV rider is a male 48 years old age. These are not renegade non-skilled teenage riders. Yes, there are users in this sport that are not responsible users. There are in EVERY type of sport or activity, from bird watcher to hunter to hiker to mtn biker. I would have to believe your user group is equally frustrated that the few bad apples in your sport that continuously get the negative press from those groups who oppose your presence. Most atv riders are folks, just like you looking to enjoy the outdoors. They are not selling drugs near our schools, not stealing from neighborhood stores, raping or murdering. They are people enjoying the outdoors!!!

The maintenance issue. Do you realize how many millions of dollars worth of FREE VOLUNTEER labor has been performed in the state parks, on multi-use trails for everyone to enjoy? I don't see any other user group contributing in this way. The work we perform is well beyond repairing trails impacted by our use. Our ATV club has put back thousands of dollars into infustructure improvements as well.

Another point. Do some of the trails need some work? Absolutely. Millions of dollars each year are set aside as part of the gas tax to be used for trail development and maintenance. (Formally called SYMMS grants). This money is to be used for motorized and non-motorized use. If officials from the State had spent this money for its intended use, this would no longer be an issue.

ATVing is the largest growing sport right now. Sales are at nearly 1 million ATV annually. And this is not a minor investment. My most recent machine cost more than my first NEW car.

This is just a start. This could go one for days. Ever user group keeps bashing the other user groups, and it gets us NOWHERE. You do not make yourself look better by making someone else look bad. The bottom line is again we are all responsible user groups on state lands, and should be working together as such to preserve what we currently have, and hopefully expand upon it.





I think this argument is a bit misplaced. Nobody cares how old an ATV rider is, or how expensive his bikes are. It's a matter of how compatible ATV's are with nature and state parks. State parks are for EVERYONE to enjoy nature.
You can hear ATV's coming a mile away, and you can tell instantly by looking at a trail that an ATV has been there. ATV use destroys enjoyment of a park for everyone else. How many times has an ATV rider come upon a trail and thought to himself, "dammitt, mountain bikers/hikers have been here!". MTBers say this about ATV's all the time.
The fact that the ATV users who destroy trail systems and ride illegally are just "bad apples" is no excuse either. One bad apple can do extraordinary damage in one single ride. And there are way too many "bad apples"
ATV's are loud, fast, destructive, and polluting, and have no place in a public parks system.



The same can be said about Mountain Bike Bad Apples. Whether you want to accept it or not, you damage the woods too.

[ATV_User]

Not much responsible riding going on in your clubs flick though.

According to whose definition of "responsible"? Why do you claim this is not responsible?



If you consider:

-Running a quad into a mud hole and spinning all 4 wheels around until the ATV is stuck, the rut is 4' deep, and the trail is impassable by everyone.

-Riding "off trail" and and blowing the trail out to the width of a major road.

-Sumberging an ATV into a river that likely drains into a watershed or some home owner's well...

..."responsible" then I guess there really is a big"problem".

Somehow I don't think the quad club sees it as responsible either, which I suppose is why they pulled the video down off thier web site.


No, I pulled the video just like the others, because people had seem them.

[ATV_User]

"At least dirt bikes leave a possibility of keeping a trail a trail rather than a rutted out road. "

That's a good point. Some of the best trails I have ridden were cut by dirt bikes. They can occasionally blow out the corners at times but overall they are more compatable with MTB'ers. I don't paint them with the same brush as the 4 wheel crowd.


So because they are more compatible with your organization, they are good. Don;t see the logic in this other that thinking that you are the only thing that counts.

[Jisch]

What's not responsible. Are we off the trail? Just because we go through the mud vs. around it doesn't make it irresponsible.


What's not responsible is the fact that you are riding on multi-use trails and turning them into single use trails. No other user group can now ride/walk there - that's ok?

John

[ATV_User]

ATV-rider

Do you know if there is a current MOU with a responsible ORV organization for Savoy? I know that at Georgetwon-Rowley SF there is none and has been none for a number of years, so no maintenance or self-policing is going on. I believe that on the BTC forum I read that Savoy did not have a current MOU.

The significance of the video to me is that ATV use is causing substantial environmental damage to commonwealth (our) land. That trail, if it's a legal ORV trail, should be closed to that use until some repairs are made and conditions allow sustainable use that does not substantially degrade the trail or wetland resources. I can't believe that the most hardened DCR manager would find the activity depicted in the video as an acceptable use of public land. If ATVs wreck a trail and it is closed as a result, too bad.


Yes, there is a MOA for Savoy. The club that was responsible for it is now defunct, and a new group has stepped forward to accept the responsibility. Once again, due to the sports growth, the "old system" does not work. This is where our efforts have to be, to define the "new system" and implement it. Like it or not, there is a lot of revenue being made from ATVs, and that is why there is a study group that was formed to find out what path to take in the future.

[slapheadmofo]

Good point about the sarcasm and personal attacks - this site gets a little thick with that kind of stuff sometimes. It gets even worse between the 'regulars' a lot of the time. :-[ Hopefully there can be a passionate discussion for once that remains civil.




MAJORITY of ATV use in the state is likely illegal.

In places like Douglas or Hopkinton, Myles Standish, yes ALL ORV use is illegal. The state parks that allow ORV use, no, I don't agree.



I was thinking on a state-wide level. With your estimate of 50k vehicles versus 200 miles of legal trails, it seems obvious to me that most of those vehicles are being used illegally the majority of the time. I'd be curious as to the actual percentage of riding time most ATVers spend on legal trails. It's got to be minimal; either that or those 200 miles of trails are bumper to bumper every weekend from May to November. If even 5% of ATV owners decide to ride legally one particular day, that you'd have 12 riders per every single mile of legal trail. I'll bet there's been plenty of sunny weekends that a lot bigger percentage of ATVers head out to ride, and you know the legal trails have never seen that kind of traffic. Like I said before, the vast majority of ATV use in MA is illegal, and most of those riding illegally also ride irresponsibly, getting a real kick out of completely ripping up trails they're not allowed to be on in the first place. Not a few bad apples, but a MAJORITY.

They're getting very popular for the same reasons that video games and fast food are popular - people are generally lazy and want a quick fix. I talk to people I know that ride them and when mtbs come up they invariably say something along the lines of "man, I don't wanna work that hard, gimme a throttle". They take the least skill and effort of any method of travelling thru the woods and cause disproportionate damage at the same time. Sure, there's plenty of people who are attracted to causing lots of destruction with very little effort. Doesn't mean it's right. They should stick to the playstation so the rest of us don't have to deal with the aftereffects.

[Jisch]

.. and a 400 pound 4-wheel ATV with a 180 pound rider does LESS damage than a mountain bike? YOU, sir, are off your rocker. Do you wear your helmet when you ride? I guess this means that an 18-wheeler tractor trailer does the least amount of damage than all of us?


The main issue is not contact patch/weight distribution its horsepower. No matter what I do on an uphill I will never be able to spin my tires the whole way up. The biggest damage to trails is from a mountain bike perspective is skidding, not pressure. The ATVs and MXers with basically unlimited power can spin at will. With the larger contact patch of ATVs, its does a lot of damage. On 2WD ATVs, they often (I believe) have a solid rear axle, meaning a tire is spinning when you're turning.

John

[ATV_User]

The common point mountain bikers are making here is we have all seen the destruction up close and personal. The blown out trails. The vegatation, brush and small trees mowed down. The ruts filled with mud / water where they didn't use to exist. From what I've seen, this stuff is usually beyond repair. And why bother if they are just going to come back? That destruction really takes away from the natural beauty that is the forest.


I agree with your post, to a point. Why do the maintenance, because that is what we must do in order to ride. I totally disagree with any ATVer, Dirt Biker, Mountain Biker, etc that go off the trail. I agree we do damage, as does everyone else, and we are trying to be responsible about it. That is why there are specific trails for specific types of people / enthusiasts.

I also agree with closing trails for maintenance / repair / regrowth, but that requires more trails to be opened to support the user base. That is the hard part. How do you open more trails to fix others when there is no plan in place. Once again, the BTC / study group is trying to address the problem.

[TrailBate]

Good point about the sarcasm and personal attacks - this site gets a little thick with that kind of stuff sometimes. It gets even worse between the 'regulars' a lot of the time.

I think I resemble that remark.

anywho...

http://www.westernmassatv.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=728&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start =0


"My point is that true tree huggers don't want anybody on the land...totally off limits to everybody...that's the final step in the whole process..."

They seem to be half-and-half over there in admitting they do damage.... They want a private members only area to post their vids and pictures where treehuggers like us can't see them. I didn't post, but most of them seemed relatively intelligent....

[mtbtom]

...They should stick to the playstation so the rest of us don't have to deal with the aftereffects.


Hey lay off the sarcasm will ya ? ;D

[ATV_User]

Good point about the sarcasm and personal attacks - this site gets a little thick with that kind of stuff sometimes. It gets even worse between the 'regulars' a lot of the time.

I think I resemble that remark.

anywho...

http://www.westernmassatv.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=728&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start =0


"My point is that true tree huggers don't want anybody on the land...totally off limits to everybody...that's the final step in the whole process..."

They seem to be half-and-half over there in admitting they do damage.... They want a private members only area to post their vids and pictures where treehuggers like us can't see them. I didn't post, but most of them seemed relatively intelligent....




I don't think that anyone "over there" will debate whether or not we cause damage, we will debate whether or not we have a right to ride. When "no_throttle" came over, his remarks were set to inflame people. If I came over here, took information and made remarks like he did, I would get a rise out off you too.

[ATV_User]

What's not responsible. Are we off the trail? Just because we go through the mud vs. around it doesn't make it irresponsible.


What's not responsible is the fact that you are riding on multi-use trails and turning them into single use trails. No other user group can now ride/walk there - that's ok?

John


I understand where you are coming from. So how do we fix it, draw a line down the middle of a trail? Its a real tough call. ATVs are here to stay. I would be more than happy to entertain any idea and present it at the BTC / Club on how we (sleds to ATVs to bikers to hikers) can co-exist in the forest.

[ATV_User]

I have truely enjoyed theis debate. I appreciate the receptiveness that I have received over here. I thought you were going to totally start bashing me. Common misconception when you go to someone else's "yard". It is nice to have a healthy debate.

I meant what I said about working together. That is the whole reason why I came over here. We are both in the woods, to stay, and rather than fight and point fingers, we need to work together. Same with all other organizations in the woods. There are ways to solve this, it just takes more than each organization doing their own thing.

have a happy easter.

[mtbtom]

So how do we fix it, draw a line down the middle of a trail? Its a real tough call. ATVs are here to stay. I would be more than happy to entertain any idea and present it at the BTC / Club on how we (sleds to ATVs to bikers to hikers) can co-exist in the forest.


So you admit that the trail was rendered unusable by the ATV's club's antics that day ? ATVs may be "here to stay", but not necessarily on public/state land.

Before you drag out the tired old "I pay taxes" argument - well I pay taxes too and you're rendering MY trails unusable !

[flyinelvis]

I got start taking part! Those are the youngest looking 48 year-olds I've ever seen...nice helmets also. Unreal.

[ATV_User]

So how do we fix it, draw a line down the middle of a trail? Its a real tough call. ATVs are here to stay. I would be more than happy to entertain any idea and present it at the BTC / Club on how we (sleds to ATVs to bikers to hikers) can co-exist in the forest.


So you admit that the trail was rendered unusable by the ATV's club's antics that day ? ATVs may be "here to stay", but not necessarily on public/state land.

Before you drag out the tired old "I pay taxes" argument - well I pay taxes too and you're rendering MY trails unusable !


I don't admit that it is unusable. I wouldn't drag out the taxes thing, that is what people that can't debate do. I admit that the sport causes damage (as do others), and that there needs to be some system in place to take care of that.

I think that they do have a place on state land. Look at the revenue that can be made by offering ATVing (as well as other sports). Pull into PSF for example, put up you campsite, and go riding, hiking, walking, whatever. Brings people to an area, increases profits for everyone.

[ATV_User]

I got start taking part! Those are the youngest looking 48 year-olds I've ever seen...nice helmets also. Unreal.


Explain please. I agree about the age. I don't know where that statistic came from. I am 30 and not proud of some of the people in the sport.

[C.P.]

I think that they do have a place on state land. Look at the revenue that can be made by offering ATVing (as well as other sports). Pull into PSF for example, put up you campsite, and go riding, hiking, walking, whatever. Brings people to an area, increases profits for everyone.


The state will never start charging for direct use of public land for one very simple reason.
The Recreational Use Statute. It's all about liability you see.

[ATV_User]

I think that they do have a place on state land. Look at the revenue that can be made by offering ATVing (as well as other sports). Pull into PSF for example, put up you campsite, and go riding, hiking, walking, whatever. Brings people to an area, increases profits for everyone.


The state will never start charging for direct use of public land for one very simple reason.
The Recreational Use Statute. It's all about liability you see.


That's a common problem with al the surrounding states.

[flyinelvis]

While descibing the profile of ATV riders, it was stated that the "average age is 48 years old". The knuckleheads in those pictures barely look to be 21. You guys are just not making a good argument. A motorcycle couldn't cause the kind of damage those people are doing and not in a 100 years could a mountain bike. The fact remain that these things are noisey, destructive, and pollute anywhere they go. BTW, I'm old enough to tell you that 25 years ago motorcycle trail access was probably 10 times what it is today. I used to ride them. You guys are headed that way.

[mtbtom]

Still waiting to hear how a mountain bike does more damage than a quad because, with a quad the weight is distrubted over 4 wheels.

[mtbtom]

I meant what I said about working together. That is the whole reason why I came over here. We are both in the woods, to stay, and rather than fight and point fingers, we need to work together....have a happy easter.


Glad someone has the warm fuzzies (sorry, there's that sarcasm again) I got two words for you "NON-MOTORIZED".

Any further communication by me on this topic will be with the DCR & State officials.

CIAO

[MTBME]

I give you a lot of credit ATV_user for sticking your head out there. But I blame the state for all of this. They have a haphazard system for defining ATV usage and they are nowhere to be found when it comes to enforcing their own policy.

In the Lowell Dracut Tyngsboro state forest there is signage stating no motorized vehicles allowed. Yet it's OK to bring a snowmobile in there. Huh! ??? I know its motorized and it doesn't make sense but hey that's the state for you.

Up until a few days ago the web site for the Northern Middlesex Council of Governments (nmcog.org) stated that ATV use was allowed in the Dracut state forest. That was discovered and corrected in the last few days. We've even had ATV'er produce telephone books showing that ATV use was allowed recreation in the forest.

[ATV-RIDER]

I don't think a few pictures are a complete description of what our sport is about. I'm sure a few pictures would not completely define your word either.

Helmets are not only the law in Massachusetts, there just common sense. Again, locating a picture of a biker trespassing does not accurately define the majority of your group.

As far the study info you requested, I stated I would post by Monday, and I will. And in my opinion - they are not anymore your trails than they are mine.

[ATV_User]

I give you a lot of credit ATV_user for sticking your head out there. But I blame the state for all of this. They have a haphazard system for defining ATV usage and they are nowhere to be found when it comes to enforcing their own policy.

In the Lowell Dracut Tyngsboro state forest there is signage stating no motorized vehicles allowed. Yet it's OK to bring a snowmobile in there. Huh! ??? I know its motorized and it doesn't make sense but hey that's the state for you.

Up until a few days ago the web site for the Northern Middlesex Council of Governments (nmcog.org) stated that ATV use was allowed in the Dracut state forest. That was discovered and corrected in the last few days. We've even had ATV'er produce telephone books showing that ATV use was allowed recreation in the forest.


unfortunately, I can not speak of anything other than Western Mass, and I definitely won't. I completely agree that the state is responsible for and needs to take the steps to correct this issue.

[ATV-RIDER]

I keep going back to one thought, and no one has addressed this yet. Explain to me how the approx 200 miles off trails we use negatively impacts your ability to ride.

What's next, the horse trails are getting too wide so they need to be restricted next? They, just like you and I, are a group that has equal rights to be there. Yes, our riding has an impact on the trails. As does yours, and everyone else’s. We do a tremendous amount of work to address the impact.

[biffster]

How does it impact us?

Those are 200 miles of trails that nobody else can use because you guys tore the crap out of them!!!!

And BTW, I really liked these posts from your forum:

I was just wondering do the mountian bikers ever get together and clean the trails like we do?

heehee...what would they clean? They don't really have the horse power to make ruts or erode the trails...I don't think we'll be winning any arguments about responsible land management...

If it keeps raining and snowing by may 1 the mud will be so deep won't that be awesome ?

I really think its time for this club to make a paying members only section on the forum so we can still enjoy our videos and not have these bozo's bad mouthing us.

[Goldstar78i]

Its my opinion that if your an ATVer, you should realize and respect the sort of environmental destruction that you can cause. Comparing the damage of a MTB to that of an ATV is absolutely nutty. I have to work my legs into a frenzy to churn up any comparable amount of dirt. MTBers usually don't think of riding a trail when its wet and muddy, because it takes a ton of energy slogging through miles of mud. ATVers don't have any such connection with the riding they do, they can go as long as there is gas in the tank and their wheels find traction.

I'm not all negative about those of you who ride ATVs, they help keep most of the trails I ride nice and distinct. I wave to you guys when I see you. The difference is, MTBers see a muddy trail and turn back or go around, you see the same one and go straight through it.

[Jisch]

I keep going back to one thought, and no one has addressed this yet. Explain to me how the approx 200 miles off trails we use negatively impacts your ability to ride.


I can't speak to Mass, as I live in CT. My beef is with the singletrack that gets blown out, by non-legal use. There are a lot of trials I avoid due to bad conditions, crowding, hikers etc. I just get really bummed when I see some cool piece of singletrack that's been like that for 15 years suddenly become rutted doubletrack. In CT, there are no legal places to ride ATVs, yet they sell like hotcakes, makes no sense to me.

John

[TrailBate]

I keep going back to one thought, and no one has addressed this yet. Explain to me how the approx 200 miles off trails we use negatively impacts your ability to ride.

What's next, the horse trails are getting too wide so they need to be restricted next? They, just like you and I, are a group that has equal rights to be there. Yes, our riding has an impact on the trails. As does yours, and everyone else’s. We do a tremendous amount of work to address the impact.



the 200 miles you guys already ride is not the issue. it's the other 2,000 miles you guys ride illegally. You can say that they are simply bad apples and that they are the minority, but every mountain biker here can give you a specific example of an ATV ruining a good mountain biking trail. These riders are by far the majority. Just because you have 200 members on you ATV website, out of the thousands of ATV riders in the state, does not make you the majority. It's a simple fact.
the reason you should not have more trails is because you ruin them for everyone else. Hikers and mountain bikers don't do this, except on Monadnock. your logic that ATV's cause less damage than bikes is completely delusional.
i've spoken to several equestrians recently, and they all share the same dislike of ORVs.

[ATV_User]

How does it impact us?

Those are 200 miles of trails that nobody else can use because you guys tore the crap out of them!!!!

And BTW, I really liked these posts from your forum:

I was just wondering do the mountian bikers ever get together and clean the trails like we do?

heehee...what would they clean? They don't really have the horse power to make ruts or erode the trails...I don't think we'll be winning any arguments about responsible land management...

If it keeps raining and snowing by may 1 the mud will be so deep won't that be awesome ?

I really think its time for this club to make a paying members only section on the forum so we can still enjoy our videos and not have these bozo's bad mouthing us.



Not really any worse than the posts I see here. I spent a great deal of time sifting through your dirty laundry.

As for the 200 miles of trails that are not usable, you are seeing the mud holes, nothing more. I agree, we do damage, and am not debating that, but there is probably 2 miles of trail out of that 200 that is not useable.

[ATV_User]

Its my opinion that if your an ATVer, you should realize and respect the sort of environmental destruction that you can cause. Comparing the damage of a MTB to that of an ATV is absolutely nutty. I have to work my legs into a frenzy to churn up any comparable amount of dirt. MTBers usually don't think of riding a trail when its wet and muddy, because it takes a ton of energy slogging through miles of mud. ATVers don't have any such connection with the riding they do, they can go as long as there is gas in the tank and their wheels find traction.

I'm not all negative about those of you who ride ATVs, they help keep most of the trails I ride nice and distinct. I wave to you guys when I see you. The difference is, MTBers see a muddy trail and turn back or go around, you see the same one and go straight through it.


I do realize and completely respect it, as I am out there trying to make other ATVers aware of their obligation to help repair what is wrong in the forests. I am not comparing the amount of damage, as there is no comparison.

[ATV_User]

I keep going back to one thought, and no one has addressed this yet. Explain to me how the approx 200 miles off trails we use negatively impacts your ability to ride.


I can't speak to Mass, as I live in CT. My beef is with the singletrack that gets blown out, by non-legal use. There are a lot of trials I avoid due to bad conditions, crowding, hikers etc. I just get really bummed when I see some cool piece of singletrack that's been like that for 15 years suddenly become rutted doubletrack. In CT, there are no legal places to ride ATVs, yet they sell like hotcakes, makes no sense to me.

John


That is part of the problem here in MA. I'm not ragging on CT guys, but the legal riding is here in MA, and we get a lot of traffic in our parks due to out of state riders.

The BTC did a survey to see who rides in the forests. The major of the people riding in the forests are out of state riders. That seems to be a general trend out here. Just an increase in traffic that our forests don't need.

[Cape Cod Biker]

I've been biking more years than most forum members. I gone riding in the mountains in Spain and France. I grew up in a little farm town and was riding my spider bike on trails made by me and my brother in the early 1960's and have been biking around the woods ever since. My brother is a horse lover and a former dirt bike racer. I'm disappointed at those forum members who choose to "hate" ATVs. ATVs are a legitimate motorized user group of state land, just like you, me, and my horse loving brother. I understand that some ATV clubs perform hundreds of hours of trail maintenance every year. Where are the pictures of these guys doing trail maintenance? Did someone forget to post them? My brother's horse group, Bay State Trail Riders, is fund raising for a bridge near Douglas SF. He told me that a group of ATV people want to help out. They hope that some day, ATVs will be allowed there as the state doesn't allow ATV riding anywhere in central & eastern mass except for a small 5 mile loop in Georgetown/Rowley. Every user group has some sort of impact on the trail and surrounding vegetation, wildlife, etc. ATVs are high impact trail users. So what! They pay taxes just like you and me. Give them places to ride throughout the state. My $ 1,500 Mtb can't compare to their $ 8,000 machine on a sales tax and registration level yet what does the state do for them? conversely, I can ride on all the roads except for highways and I can ride on trails all over the state. I think we should start a dialogue with the ATV people to see if we can find some common ground and partner with them in the pursuit of more trail access for everyone. Let's stop fighting and pointing fingers like children and instead, reach out to the ATV people. If we start communicating, we just might learn from each other and further both sports.

[ATV_User]

I've been biking more years than most forum members. I gone riding in the mountains in Spain and France. I grew up in a little farm town and was riding my spider bike on trails made by me and my brother in the early 1960's and have been biking around the woods ever since. My brother is a horse lover and a former dirt bike racer. I'm disappointed at those forum members who choose to "hate" ATVs. ATVs are a legitimate motorized user group of state land, just like you, me, and my horse loving brother. I understand that some ATV clubs perform hundreds of hours of trail maintenance every year. Where are the pictures of these guys doing trail maintenance? Did someone forget to post them? My brother's horse group, Bay State Trail Riders, is fund raising for a bridge near Douglas SF. He told me that a group of ATV people want to help out. They hope that some day, ATVs will be allowed there as the state doesn't allow ATV riding anywhere in central & eastern mass except for a small 5 mile loop in Georgetown/Rowley. Every user group has some sort of impact on the trail and surrounding vegetation, wildlife, etc. ATVs are high impact trail users. So what! They pay taxes just like you and me. Give them places to ride throughout the state. My $ 1,500 Mtb can't compare to their $ 8,000 machine on a sales tax and registration level yet what does the state do for them? conversely, I can ride on all the roads except for highways and I can ride on trails all over the state. I think we should start a dialogue with the ATV people to see if we can find some common ground and partner with them in the pursuit of more trail access for everyone. Let's stop fighting and pointing fingers like children and instead, reach out to the ATV people. If we start communicating, we just might learn from each other and further both sports.


This is the exact reason I came over here. I am still waiting for any suggestions as to how we can co-exsist.

[ATV_User]

http://www.westernmassatv.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=728&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start =0
no matter how irresponsible it may be, im gonna join that forum and have some fun... ;D i wont disgrace mountain bikers, only myself. this will pretty much all be in jest. i guess i need something else to occupy my spare time instead of hanging around busted spoke all of the time.


Childish, the kind of thinking that keeps the finger pointing / fighting going.

[mtbtom]

This is the exact reason I came over here. I am still waiting for any suggestions as to how we can co-exsist.


On a large scale, there really isn't way to coexist. You should realize that a lot of trail users want single track, and quiet trails, which are impossible with ATVs on them.

It's pretty clear that any "multi-use" trail that allows ATVS become single use only, because the other trail users are driven away. Take clough state park for example - that place is a wasteland now.

And Cape Cod biker: You don't have a problem with all the nice single track down at Otis getting blown out by quads ?

[no-throttle]

I don't think that anyone "over there" will debate whether or not we cause damage, we will debate whether or not we have a right to ride. When "no_throttle" came over, his remarks were set to inflame people. If I came over here, took information and made remarks like he did, I would get a rise out off you too.


Atv_user
Geez...guess I kinda stirred the pot here, which was my intent. This thread was dying down and needed a little fuel. I didn't take any information from your site. The video was already out on the net. The video led me to your web site.

My biggest fear is that if Bear brook state park is opened to ATV use during non winter- months the trail system will become what is shown in your video. With the limited legal trails opened to ATV use, Bear brook would quickly become a destination for ATV’s. With the availability of camping in Bear brook I’m sure that your club would come to New Hampshire for a weekend of camping and ATV’ing.
This is just one of the other aspects of opening Bear brook up to atv use.

[mtbtom]

And another thing: ATV_Rider the point you keep reiterating over and over again is a that "ATVs aren't going anywhere, so we should work together.".

That's not true.

We can pressure the state to crack down on illegal ATV riding in state parks, eliminate them from others where they are legal but are not holding up their end of the trail maintenance bargain and stop them from gaining legal access to other state parks. Consider the successes up in Bear Brook New Hampshire for example.

Given ability of ATVS to completely destroy singletrack and drive all other non-motorized users away I think you're gonna find a lot more people who are looking to work AGAINST you rather than with you.

[ATV_User]

I don't think that anyone "over there" will debate whether or not we cause damage, we will debate whether or not we have a right to ride. When "no_throttle" came over, his remarks were set to inflame people. If I came over here, took information and made remarks like he did, I would get a rise out off you too.


Atv_user
Geez...guess I kinda stirred the pot here, which was my intent. This thread was dying down and needed a little fuel. I didn't take any information from your site. The video was already out on the net. The video led me to your web site.

My biggest fear is that if Bear brook state park is opened to ATV use during non winter- months the trail system will become what is shown in your video. With the limited legal trails opened to ATV use, Bear brook would quickly become a destination for ATV’s. With the availability of camping in Bear brook I’m sure that your club would come to New Hampshire for a weekend of camping and ATV’ing.
This is just one of the other aspects of opening Bear brook up to atv use.




Like i said, debate is good. Look back through my posts. ATV riding could be good, if the state is prepared for it. Our state was prepared for it, but it grew and the state did not look at new ways to handle the situation.

I would ne more than happy to share the video of the Hattfield McCoy trail system. Me and a couple of friends went down there this past November. They have it set up so that they have multiple trails going from point A to point B. When the forst trail needs work, they close that and open the other. Plus, they are willing to maintain and repair the trails, not count on volunteer labor. This way, the trail system stays in good condition for everyone. This is the type of system that the state must move to if it is to keep the woods good for everyone. Plus, it taps a huge source of revenue. Not saying this is the answer, but all the areas that have sucessful riding for all user bases seem to have a similar system.

Another interesting point. Winter riding. This is something that I haven't been able to understand. Our state doesn't allow us to do winter riding. Doesn't make sense to me. Once the ground is hard, with a good foot or so of packed snow, I would think that riding would be allowed. Not the case.

[ATV_User]

And another thing: ATV_Rider the point you keep reiterating over and over again is a that "ATVs aren't going anywhere, so we should work together.".

That's not true.

We can pressure the state to crack down on illegal ATV riding in state parks, eliminate them from others where they are legal but are not holding up their end of the trail maintenance bargain and stop them from gaining legal access to other state parks. Consider the successes up in Bear Brook New Hampshire for example.

Given ability of ATVS to completely destroy singletrack and drive all other non-motorized users away I think you're gonna find a lot more people who are looking to work AGAINST you rather than with you.


Well said, and I agree. But, do you also accept that if a suitable system could be put in place to maintain the trails for every user base, then ATV riding could be permitted. This is a long way off and I have done much research on what other areas are doing. The problem is getting people to open their minds to something different and look at it with an open mind. If some can do that (look at it with an open mind) and still say no, then I accept that.

[BG]

I agree, there is no way to "co-exist" on the same trails. If there is motorized activity and it is legal then there should be a seperate trail system designed, a seperate plan for maintenence, and a seperate plan for enforcement. Paid for by who? You guessed it, the motorized user group primarily. through registration, licensce and user fees.
To think that such an activity can just be simply absorbed and merged with present passive activity without some serious physical and financial consideration is absurd. It's akin to making it legal to allow pedetrians and equestrians usage to all existing roadways 'cause they have just as much right to be there. They pay taxes and they were here first.
You guys are doing the correct thing and as mtbme mentioned must get credit for sticking your necks out here. As mtbtom also mentioned the real place for action is with the DCR and the State.
Do as others have done and organize. Show that motorized vehicle user groups can and will be responsible now and into the future. Show that you can go well beyond the "i pay taxes so i have just as much right to do what i want" attitude. Accept that motorized vehicle activity is inherently a 1000 fold more a "high maintenence" activity than the considerably more passive ones that currently exist in these forests. Show that you have a plan to co-exist from an environmental, saftey and scocial viewpoint. And maybe more people will listen.
Otherwise it's buisiness as usual.

BG

[ATV_User]

I agree, there is no way to "co-exist" on the same trails. If there is motorized activity and it is legal then there should be a seperate trail system designed, a seperate plan for maintenence, and a seperate plan for enforcement. Paid for by who? You guessed it, the motorized user group primarily. through registration, licensce and user fees.



I'm not so sure that we can not co-exist, although I understand your argument. It does work in other spots. The big problem is that the money that we spend on registrations goes into a general fund, not to the parks, not to maintenance, to nothing. That is a huge thing to overcome.

I also completely agree with organization. It is something the sport has lacked for about 15 years now. That is another huge problem.

As for that plan, I have been starting on it, researching. It is a big undertaking and I don't know if one person can get the ball rolling. The clubs seem to have a take care of their own mentality, and that doesn't help.

Just remember, not everyone is as bad as you think. There are those of us working towards the same goal you guys are. As the founders of your organization know, it takes time and we are behind from the start.

[biffster]

My whole gripe with the ATV's is that they have already shown to us how much damage they cause and their inability to manage the areas they already have.

If the areas they could legally ride in were maintained and the riders were proactive about policing each other, I would be more open to letting them in other areas.

From reading your message board and ctriders.com, you guys have a long way to go. Seems to me the majority of your group could care a less about trail maintence and your image and more concerned about finding illegal areas to ride where the DEP can't find you.

[BG]

That's cool. Good luck and keep working at it. And remember, even though you'll have to put up with many thrashings from your opponents, there's a lot to be learned even from their negativity.
And if all else fails, there's always the proposition of buying a Harley and happily co-existing where the battle has already been won. See you on the trails or streets.

BG

[slapheadmofo]

And another thing: ATV_Rider the point you keep reiterating over and over again is a that "ATVs aren't going anywhere, so we should work together.".

That's not true.

We can pressure the state to crack down on illegal ATV riding in state parks, eliminate them from others where they are legal but are not holding up their end of the trail maintenance bargain and stop them from gaining legal access to other state parks. Consider the successes up in Bear Brook New Hampshire for example.

Given ability of ATVS to completely destroy singletrack and drive all other non-motorized users away I think you're gonna find a lot more people who are looking to work AGAINST you rather than with you.


Me for one. I feel a little for the few riders making an effort to be responsible out there, but there's no way for ATV's to share the trails around here short of building and maintaining a seperage and distinct trail network, and finding some way to get riders to actually STAY ON LEGAL TRAILS. I don't see either one of those things happening; I don't think there's a high enough percentage of ATVers who could give a damn whether a trail is legal or whether or not they're ruining the trails for any other groups' enjoyment. It's all about getting out there and ripping it up in the least physically demanding and most destructive way possible; that's the big draw.

[no-throttle]

Atv_user.... Why is your site down???

[200X]

I’m amazed at a lot of what has been said in this thread regarding ATVers. It even amazes me more that it’s coming from mountain bikers. I used to mountain bike quite a bit myself. In fact, I grew up in Western Mass and did my fair share of biking in that area. Unless certain things have changed, aren’t people making the same complaints against you guys? “Mountain bikes put ruts in the trails, they ride too fast, they scare hikers and horses…” Geez, sounds a lot like the plight we face, sans the “noise” argument people keep bringing up. And for the record, I currently live about 2 miles from a state park in Connecticut. I can hike there or ride a horse, but I can’t Mt. Bike there!

A poster said that public land should be open for everyone, but not ATVers. Care to explain how if you enjoy the outdoors on an ATV, you suddenly become ineligible to use PUBLIC land? If my tax dollars and registration fees go towards the funding outdoor areas, why don’t I have the right to enjoy the outdoors on my ATV?

[Jisch]

Unless certain things have changed, aren’t people making the same complaints against you guys? “Mountain bikes put ruts in the trails, they ride too fast, they scare hikers and horses…”


Seems to be a circle going here, but the basic idea is that while people sometimes complain about MTBs, from our perspective the trails are still usable by all user groups after we ride by. This is not necessarily the case when an ATV goes by. I know of many places where it starts as a singletrack, been that way for 15 years that I know of, in a matter of weeks it goes to rutted double track from ATVs. The trails at the local state forest were cut by MXers (myself included) and are not in any different shape now that MTBs are riding them, but as soon as one ATV goes through they blow everything out.

As far as having somewhere to use your ATV, perhaps that something to consider before buying one. Certainly the rules didn't change AFTER you bought it right?

John

[200X]

As far as having somewhere to use your ATV, perhaps that something to consider before buying one. Certainly the rules didn't change AFTER you bought it right?

This goes back to my original point. Why do you have more of a right to enjoy the outdoors than I do?

[Geoff G.]

we don't have more rights, we just don't encroach apon other's rights. Kind of like how the bill of rights works, your rights immeiatly go away when they affect someone in a bad way.
anyways, here is what the savoy park ranger had to say.

Geoff:

Thank you for your concerns regarding the damage caused by ATV's. Unfortunately, I could not view the ATV video you referenced, so I can not comment directly about the content. I will however comment on the OFF Road Vehicle (ORV) program that the Department of Conservation and Recreation (DCR) has sanctioned. ORV use is permitted only on designated ORV trails within the forest. Presently, this amounts to approximately 25 miles of trails. Last year I closed two ORV trails, and have recommended closing those portions of trails located in very sensitive areas.

The Savoy Mountain State Forest also offers 20 miles of hiking trails off limits to ORV's. The majority of these hiking trails are located near the campground and day use area, so our patrons can experience a non-motorized sanctuary located within the 12,000 acres.

DCR's overriding responsibility is the long-term maintenance and enhancement of the quality, quantity, function, and integrity of the resources it manages. During the past year, an ORV study team was formed to analyze the current and future use of OFF Road Vehicles within the forests and parks of Massachusetts. Hopefully, the outcome will allow the ORV system to minimize user conflicts and protect our environmental resources for present and future generations.

Like most issues confronting us, funds are needed to restore and maintain the existing trail network. We are trying to augment the funds used for personnel, vehicles, equipment, and materials. Additional support from trail crews could help existing ORV trail groups, Americorps and other volunteer groups.

As the Supervisor of this facility, I do not take this issue lightly. I deal with many challenges daily, and I am confident we will continue developing and managing a trail system that allows appropriate access to Massachusetts' natural, secenic, and cultural resources for all visitors.

Sincerely,

Tim Zelazo
Forest &Park Supervisor III
Western Region
Northern District
413.663.8469

[Cape Cod Biker]

What a beautiful Saturday! Just came back from a 15 mile street ride. Stopped at an ice cream shop on the way back. While riding, I kept thinking of this ATV debate. When my brother used to race dirt bikes with NETRA, he was always telling me how the equestrians hated them and kept pestering the state to ban all dirt bikes in state parks. They used all sorts of arguments including the one that dirt bikes and horses are incompatible on a trail because they will spook the horse, dirt bikes wreck the trail, etc. Well he owns two horses so he can see this argument from both sides of the spectrum. We've talked about that issue and the ATV issue many times before it was on this forum. I never had a big problem with ATVs but knew they were a high impact user group just like dirt bikes. I think the demon is not the ATV population but the state as it refuses to maintain high impact trails even though it gets loads of money from ATV registrations, sales tax, and the TEA-21 money. I think those who would like to see ATVs banned from trails are acting in a selfish manner. Every user group should have a right to use state land. I think it is the land manager (i.e. the state) that is messing up. The land manager allows legal ATV riding in only a handful of places. If I have an ATV here on Cape Cod, it would take me 3 or 4 hours to get to one of those western Mass state forests. That's nuts! Why wouldn't someone illegally ride an ATV here on the Cape after spending $6,000 or $ 7,000? If the state banned all bike trails tomorrow, I'm still going to ride the ones that I think won't get me in trouble. I've been riding too many years and have too much money invested for the state to tell me I can't ride my bike. I have a feeling that some of the ATV people think this way. It might not be legal but who among us can say they NEVER went over the speed limit with their car or NEVER rode their bike where they should not have done so. Give the ATVs a place to ride. We all should be trying to peacefully co-exist and build bridges between user groups instead of divides. I'm sure that some of you understand my point of view. If the state has a bunch of divided user groups, then the state can continue to call the shots and make us all fight for each and every mile of trail. If all user groups could work together with the common goal of more trails miles for everyone, then the state would be at a disadvantage and we would all do much better. Please don't misunderstand me here. I am not advocating for the ATVs to have as much trail mileage as Mtb's or hikers but I think it is only fair that ATVs are provided with enough trail mileage in enough areas of the state so they have some convenient destinations. Again, let's build bridges instead of divides. Let's all work together and create a trail plan for the whole state that includes all user groups.

[biffster]

Here's some more banter from the ATV' folks:

http://www.ctriders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3249

Some Comments from the thread:

Just a word to the wise--Be careful of topics and pictures posted on this public site. At WMATV, we've closed the forum due to a mountain biker moving some media from our site to theirs and using the media against our interests. Please avoid the situation we're in.

Hey what do yo know. Just went to there MB and it's the same bunch of JERKOFFS!

[slapheadmofo]

If I have an ATV here on Cape Cod, it would take me 3 or 4 hours to get to one of those western Mass state forests. That's nuts! Why wouldn't someone illegally ride an ATV here on the Cape after spending $6,000 or $ 7,000?


I've got a downhill bike that cost around $6k and a perfect place nearby to do shuttle runs (Mt Wachusett has an access road to top and plenty of hiking trails that lead from there). Problem is downhilling there would wear heavily on the trails not to mention ruin a lot of hikers enjoyment of the them. Oh, and it's VERY off limts to bikes. Are you saying you'd condone massive illegal use of these trails by downhillers regardless of damage and impact to other trail users? Maybe the state should subsidize running the lifts in summer so I don't have to make the long drives to ski mountains anymore too? That would be SWEET!

When I got into DHing I knew it was very expensive and that I'd have to travel to get to proper venues for it. That's the way it is for ATVs too. Why should everyone else have to be subjected to ruined trails because some people's idea of enjoyment is trashing them? If people make ill-informed purchases, it's too damn bad. Get a trailer and haul the quads to somewhere legal. I made countless 5 hour drives to Sunday River to use my expensive machine at a place that could support the kind of riding I wanted to do. I didn't expect the state to start building dedicated DH runs. I think the solution to ATV's lack of riding options is the same as the solution for freeriders and DHers - private property.

[priss]

If registration fees and taxes are the best reason you can give for your right to use the public lands then you all better speed up.

I got a Ram1500 4x4

Yeah! it's got a hemi

[BG]

Unfortunately, you must realize, like a lot of taxes and registration fees, they don't go to pay what you think they pay. And paying of taxes doesn't necc give you the right to do whatever you want to do. Esp if it's ILLEGAL.
And, even if the basic activity is legal, doesn't give anyone the right to break the laws concerning usage. Also unfortunate is the lack of a uniform definitive set of usage laws determining the usage of motorized vehicles on state property. (again, a moot point due to the fact there are generally are no resources or plan to enforce)
And, i can see the next step on the horizon, we'll all be in the same boat (atv, hiker, mtbr, snowmobile ect) when the BIG 4-wheelers get the idea that, hey, if atv's and other motorized vehichels are allowed, why can't we go in and rock crawl and stream ride, we pay taxes too you know.
When that happens, I'll join 'em.

BG

[slapheadmofo]

As far as having somewhere to use your ATV, perhaps that something to consider before buying one. Certainly the rules didn't change AFTER you bought it right?

This goes back to my original point. Why do you have more of a right to enjoy the outdoors than I do?


You have every right to enjoy the outdoors. You don't have the right to ruin it for everyone else, and you don't have the right to break the law. If I prefer to enjoy the outdoors by lighting fires or spray painting trees, should I have a right to do that? What if I like building impassable obstacles across legal trails? Should I be able to do that? Of course not.

Imagine a bunch of people hundreds of miles from any sizeable body of water getting suckered into buying speedboats, then believing that the the state should build dams to flood public lands so they can use them, and when the state doesn't take care if it right away, they start flooding the local parks themselves. Hey, they spent a lotta $$ on their boats right? They've got a right to use the lands any way they see fit, whether it ruins it for everyone else or not right? How would you like it if those guys decided that the perfect place for a pond was above the local trails that you've maintained and enoyed for years? One day you head out, psyched to ride, couple buddys, full tank, perfect day, you get to the trailhead and now it's a beach, behind that a lake covering everything you loved riding. Gone. Never coming back. That's a lot like what it feels when you find that ATVs have started ripping up the local hiking and biking trails. Buy a trailer and start hauling to places that cater to ATVs. You DON'T have a right to illegally trash trails, no matter how much the local Honda shop managed to take you for.

[Big Game]

I can tell you where this debate is going to go. Nowhere. We tried getting a dialogue going with ATV'rs last year on another site....pretty much pleading them to stay of our singletrack. We got threats. That was cute. And some dude said that the ruts quads created actually made the trails more technical and fun to ride. Seriouse.

ATV'rs turn a blind eye to the obvious destruction they cause because they are having a lot of fun (and the destruction seems to be part of the fun).

Still can't figure out why ATV'rs dig the training wheels. Why don't they demonstrate the balance a 6 year old has and ride a two wheeler? I can understand if you have a medical condition ---think Baboon's dad uses a quad because otherwise we wouldn't be able to get around in the woods. I think there should be a place made for such users who aren't trying to rip up the ground. But what with these otherwise healthy kids? If you don't like pedaling (hell sometimes I don't like it) then why not a dirtbike?

Think I'd rather have my freinds catch me riding a pink moped than an ATV. At least with the pink moped you'd have a certain level of apparent irony. But with a quads, it is just high tragedy.

[biffster]

I know Big Game. You can't even talk to these people. There is no reasoning with them. We just need to make sure they never get a chance to trash any Connecticut forests.

There is a pro-ATV bill going through the Connecticut House and Senate debating the issue and could pave the way for legal ATV use in Connecticut forests. If you care about this issue and live in Connecticut, I urge to you write your local politicians and get involved.

[mtbtom]

If anyone wants a copy of the "ATV Trail Destruction Video" on CD to mail to their local politician or land manager PM me your mailing address and I'll post one over to you.

[horsepower]

As posted by others, this topic is going nowhere. After a few users decided to listen, there are others who refuse to.

While registering to this forum, I found the following that must be adhered to:


You agree, through your use of the NEMBA Online Forum(s), that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of ANY law. This is not only humorous, but legal actions can be taken against you. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or you have consent from the owner of the copyrighted material. Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also inappropriate to the NEMBA Online Forum(s).

Now, what is going to be done about posting and distributing copyrighted material without a clubs consent? I don't care where it came from or it it was all over the internet. Napster was shut down because of their file sharing. Kazaa and the other file sharing network users have been fined for their file transfers...Are your users looking for the same?

My second point: As stated by others there are always participants of any sport who decide not to follow the rules. A perfect case in point is a riding area in New York that has been shut down to mountainbikers. Initially, there was an agreement the riders would not ride (downhill) through the farm areas as this spooks the horses. As people did, we would ask them to dismount and walk. A handful would comply but the others would ignore or curse at us and ride on. Now the section of the trail is closed and posted. I find it funny the riders continue to ride on a closed trail. When they are seen, we constantly inform them the trail is closed and have them go another way. They claim there are no signs. I thought your community followed rules and regulations...

I think the entire community needs to cooperate if we are to co-exist. There are members from both sides willing to work together. Lets find a way to make this happen and we all benefit.

[biffster]

Okay, let's talk about copyrights.

Not once in that video is it stated that the material is copyrighted or a trademark or registered mark present on any of your logos or insignias.

I was told uncopyrighted works posted on the internet are basically "public domain" for use by anyone.

I also find it funny that you accuse us of copyright infringement when you used two copyrighted songs in your video.

Who's calling the kettle black in this one?

[slapheadmofo]

Actually there doesn't need to be any statement or mark of copyright - pics, vids etc are considered copyrighted the moment they are created whether it's stated or not. I think once you post something in a public place free of charge and for public consumption (ie an internet site), there aren't any issues with others distributing it as long as long as no one else claims credit for it or tries to make any $$ from it. Could be a little off on the second point tho...

[mtbtom]

Now, what is going to be done about posting and distributing copyrighted material without a clubs consent? I don't care where it came from or it it was all over the internet. Napster was shut down because of their file sharing. Kazaa and the other file sharing network users have been fined for their file transfers...Are your users looking for the same?


Why, what are you trying to cover up?

This is actually pretty humorous. You're looking to sue someone for slander with a video that YOU CREATED. Pffft.

B.T.W., I'll be sure to e-mail your video over to P-Diddy and let him know you're using his music without his consent.

[200X]

Cape Cod Biker,
Thanks for the level headed post. It's good to see someone who can see both sides of the issue and not just paint ATVers with the same broad brush.

Others,
I don't really see what sending that video to state reps, rangers, or some long haired dude who makes his own granola will really do. Seems somewhat babyish IMHO, but I guess if that's how you want to deal with it, so be it.

Like you , we have forums where there alerts to proposed rules and regs and we're pretty good at writing letters and getting the word out to the ATV community regarding certain issues.

I'd like to share a few little quotes I pulled from another bike site last year. I know a few of you said ATVers have attitudes, but I guess some bikers are generally mad at the world at well:


Actually I'm planning a XC ride at Salmon river soon where we all take a box of roofing nails, and dump them in some 18-inch rut around a corner that only an ATV would ever sink into. That will fix the bastards.



Glad I fired you up TTT, I would stay clear of the roofing nail experiment, theyll hang you for that, James bond ski pole at neck height though, thats a good one..


I think we need to set up the barfaloungers and hang out all day...when ATV's and trail sissies do what they do best (ruin the trails) we can stop them and educate them. We'll take pictures...we'll have a contest for whoever captures the ultimate trail sissy on film...and then send the pictures to their mommas.

Nice, huh?

Anyway, it bums me out that a few of you guys are so bent out of shape about this. I think there's a few bad apples in any group of people and some of you choose to look at all of us ATVers in the same light. Regarding those quotes I posted; I'm sure you're not all like that, and I choose not to paint you all with that brush.

I ride in Mass a lot and I wave to anyone I see on the trail, no matter how they choose to enjoy the outdoors. I'll wave to some of you to, even if you give me the one finger solute or the internation peace sign.

[slapheadmofo]

I've got friends that ride ATVs (never legally of course). I don't feel hostility towards them personally, I think they're misguided and don't realize how much damage they're doing or the extent to which they ruin other's experiences. They've been suckered into thinking that because they can buy these things, they should be able to use them however and wherever they want.

I'm no tree hugger, my motiviation is strictly selfish, just like you guys. I want to enjoy riding my bike in the woods on singletrack and quads are the mortal enemy of singletrack. Up your skill levels and get on two wheels and leave those motorized armchairs for disabled people. Keep the trails skinny.

[frano]

The author states that this was a Berkshire Trails Counsel event. The Berkshire Trails Counsel was formed some 10 years ago and consisted of representatives of ALL multi trail user groups. It's intent is to assist Mass. DCR with solutions and maintenance on said trails. It was not intended to run or sponser events and it's charter has not changed. What has changed over the years is the belief on some user groups that they are not part of the problem, therefore do not need to be part of the solution. Over the last 30 years I've snowmobiled, dirt biked, ATV'd, and even have a mountain bike. From personal experience I can tell you that ALL of these user groups are part of the problem (yes, mountain bikes too). I can also tell you that many folks believe that unless it has feet, it does not belong on public land. I have not seen a mountain bike representative at the Berkshire Trails Counsel meeting (1st Wed of each month) in the past 5 years, so I know they're not part of the solution. I believe it's time to stop bashing each other before nothing with tires or tracks are allowed in the State parks. ATVers efforts have saved your sport so far, but we can change that if you'd like.

[slapheadmofo]

ATVers efforts have saved your sport so far


;D That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time! Good one!

There are no ATVer efforts in any areas I ride or have ridden, unless you count efforts to find ways around the gates w/ signs saying "no motorized vehicles" or to turn a simple stream crossing into a 1000 sq ft mud bog. I think the point that's being lost is that the majority of mtbers consider their use of trails to be more akin to hiking than to motorized use, and this is borne out in most cases by the vast difference in our impact on the trails and other user groups. Not to say some people don't like us, or that we all play strictly by the rules all the time, but trails that are used by bikers can still be enjoyed by other users. The noise, damage and high speeds that go along with motorized use preclude that. I'm sure it's less of an issue in your area, but head east some where there's less open space and more people trying to use it at the same time and picture the situation if ATVs were given free reign. As it is, a couple bad apples can (and do) trash huge portions of a trail system in one muddy weekend. Imagine if 20 times more quads were out there? The trails can't take it.

[CouchingTiger]

Can't we all just get along ;)

Anyone want to distribute a copy of one of the MTB trail destruction videos taken from one of the various forums to a state rep?

-Couch

[BG]

I guess before i go out and eat myself silly this afternoon, i will cast a vote:

I vote YES for a responsible, intelligent integration of more motorized vehicle usage on select state properties.
(i'm NOT saying blind simple allowance for it to happen)
The key being responsible/intelligent. Major league problems in definition and execution of the above, but i believe it could happen.

Oh well, please don't hurt me.

BG

[BG]

I guess i do have one more thing to say on the subject of *******S.
I really don't think that comes into play much, it has been my experience that there is a pretty level playing field on that issue. I have met an equal pecentage from all user groups.

BG

[ATV-RIDER]

Consider the successes up in Bear Brook New Hampshire for example.

I would call that an error, not a success. The original intent was to say 400 feet, not 4000. It's in the process of being revised. We'll see how that goes.

[ATV-RIDER]

I get a kick out of the comments about people who ride atvs are too lazy to peddle. Does that mean people who ride horses are too lazy to walk? How about rock-crawling? What are they too non-skilled to do? I enjoying mountain biking. Granted my ability and equipment may not be as advanced as many people here, but I enjoy it nonetheless. This debated is certainly not over skill level of one kind or another. They are different types of sports requiring different types of skills.

Although this will not produce anything positive from this conversation, I can't help myself. I personally enjoy several types of ATV riding, including the tech 4x4 stuff and the sport-race quad stuff. I'd like to see a mtn bike guy get on a highly modified race quad, go out and run a GNCC cross country race course, and then tell me there’s no skill involved. I could turn this argument around and ask how much skill does it take to ride a bike? My kids have learned at 4 or 5.

This is stupid. The above ranting doesn't solve anything. If you choose to work together with all user groups, not just ORV people, I think you'll accomplish so much more than working alone.

[slapheadmofo]

You're totally right that at a certain level, all those things require skill, specially in competition. I'm not trying to paint all quad riders as lazy, unskilled or unconcerned; that would be ridiculous. But at the same time, there's no easier way for an unskilled, unconcerned person to cause a huge amount of damage to trails in a very short time. I've seen it over and over. Some guy in Dracut (or wherever) watches some 'mudding' videos and heads over to recreate the action in the state forest. Happens all time. There seems to be little if any concern from the vast majority of ATVers what sort of shape they leave the trails in for others, or even themselves.

Out of curiousity, what's a quad riders take on this article?
http://www.nemba.org/Articles/SoftRiding.html

[gnurider1080]

I could turn this argument around and ask how much skill does it take to ride a bike? My kids have learned at 4 or 5.
ahahaha!!! wow! you need to get to some actually tough trails. i suggest lynn woods. i want you to try and tell me that some of those trails dont take alot of skill to clean. speaking of lynn, i remember seeing some idiot on a quad riding there when there are signs all over the place saying no motor vehicle use. damn near ran my foot over when i had to move out of the way since he was taking up the whole trail. oh, and tell me that a tabletop off of a 20 foot drop doesnt take skill. if its so easy, please do that and make sure you get some good pics of it.

[johnbryanpeters]

I'm suffering from some kind of conceptual gap here. Whether or not ATV use was legal on the "trails" shown in that video was legal, the riding shown is flat-assed irresponsible. Mud bogging should not be allowed on public land, ever.

We're seeing the problem in my area of Vermont; there's a nascent ATV organization, VASA, that's trying to get more legal trails to ride, but the outlaws do so damn much damage that there are few who do not ride ATVs who are willing to support the group or their goals.

I have met some very decent and responsible ATV riders, but I have met a higher percentage who are fundamentally arrogant and destructive.

My current position leans more towards banning their sale than helping them get access, but that's probably not politically achievable.

J

[biffster]

Found this thread on www.ctriders.com. It spells out the problem they have and they freely admit the trail in Mass are trashed. I get a kick out of the guy asking for help and nobody from CT showed up. All had some lame excuse. Check it out:

http://www.ctriders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2790

[ATV-RIDER]

My current position leans more towards banning their sale than helping them get access, but that's probably not politically achievable.

With the sales number going through the roof over the last several years, I don't see that happening.

[Quad-Racer]

I would like to point out even if there were no ATV riding on the trails in Savoy, many of these trails would not look any different. They probably would look worse without the maintenance ATV clubs do. The ATV folks do not truck the mud in, it is always there. Most of the trails we legally use are trails that bike riders probably would not use anyway.

[Quad-Racer]

If registration fees and taxes are the best reason you can give for your right to use the public lands then you all better speed up.


And what exactly is your right to be there? What do you contribute to the state in terms of revenue, or to the state parks in terms of maintenance?

[biffster]

The mud is there? And pinning a quad full throttle and buying it doesn't make it worse right? Making trails the width of a four lane solves it? The mud was already there?

That is total ********!

You guys trashed the trails in that video and all of you admitted you made the damage in the above thread I posted:

http://www.ctriders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2790

I've been having it out with the people on ctriders.com. Thread http://www.ctriders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3249 I swear there is no talking to you people. Your heads are not screwed on straight.

Here's quote from ctriders. This makes total sense to me ??? ??? ???:

And you are saying your s*** doesnt stink and that you guys making bridges and other useless s*** in the the forest is fine. What the hell is that all about at least we don't go in and cut down trees to build bridges and obstacles which could end up destroying the forest more than you think, we just nail the gas to go through whatever, you morons would put a bridge over. I would say that a few ruts can be more easily fixed than a few trees cut to the ground can. Do you have an argument for that one?

[Quad-Racer]

You don't have the right to ruin it for everyone else,

You can't be serious. Ruin it for everyone else? So you can never ride again? All over a few miles of muddy trails? I think there enough people around that do like this that it will be around longer than you think.

[biffster]

You guys did ruin it for everyone else. Nothing short of a logging skidder can use that trail now.

[Quad-Racer]

I ride Mt. Pisgah several times a week, 'cause it's right near my house. There has been some ATV use on the lower part (by Linden St.) but it's not too bad. In general the place is getting braided pretty badly -- mostly by bikers trying to go straight where the trail curves, or avoiding rocks, from the looks of it. The bizarre thing is that when that gets done, the place ends up a whole lot less fun to ride. I try to close off one new braid each ride, so if you see new brush piles, it was probably me. People need to learn to love the existing line, not make new ones.

OK, off soapbox now.

Tim

Hmmm... So you do have some of the same type of people after all

[biffster]

I guess you forgot to read this part:

I try to close off one new braid each ride, so if you see new brush piles, it was probably me.

[minkhiller]

If registration fees and taxes are the best reason you can give for your right to use the public lands then you all better speed up.


And what exactly is your right to be there? What do you contribute to the state in terms of revenue, or to the state parks in terms of maintenance?
I have been and will continue to lurk on this thread but this statement is a good one, get a clue. And please keep responding to this thread, you are doing us a favor.

[Quad-Racer]

Nothing short of a logging skidder can use that trail now.

WRONG - A quad could.

[biffster]

Didn't see too many get through in your video....

Not to mention the hikers, bikers and horse people who can't use it now.

[200X]

Found this thread on www.ctriders.com. It spells out the problem they have and they freely admit the trail in Mass are trashed. I get a kick out of the guy asking for help and nobody from CT showed up. All had some lame excuse. Check it out:

http://www.ctriders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2790


With all due respect...did you look at the date that was posted and the date of the work party? 3 days notice isn't much to work on in the summer. I don't know about you, but I have a yard to work on, a house, family and friend gatherings, vacations and things like that to jugle in the summer. 3 days notice was a bit short.

And as a general note, all Mass state parks have an ATV/Motorcycle club assigned to them. If anyone doesn't think this is true, check out the Western Mass atv site when it opens again. I'm sure they'll be happy to share what their work schedule is. Each year, clubs are responsible for X number of work hours to OHV trails in their respective park.

I attended one of these parties in the fall. I'm kicking myself for not bringing my digital camera so I could show some of the non beleivers that over 100 people showed up to work on the OHV trails at Savoy. In addition, Popoli's Honda/Yamaha and Ronnie's showed up to help out. Both donated machinery, workers and lunch for the cause.

Please, look into the facts before posting. Just because you weren't in the park during a work party, doesn't mean they don't happen.

[Cape Cod Biker]

Wow!! What a lot of anger here. It reminds me of a bunch of children running to mommy and yelling that he/she did it. Wa Wa Wa - I'm going to run to DCR, show them some shocking video, and tell on you evil ATV people. Wa Wa Wa - you mountain bike people are just plain mean and want the forest for yourselves.
Destroying a public trail with your ATV is plain wrong. Throwing roofing nails on a trail in order to blow out an ATVs tires is wrong. Running a wire across a trail and hurting or killing an ATV operator is CRIMINAL. Some people might think the line across the trail is just talk but it just happened in New Hampshire about 2 weeks ago on a snowmobile trail and the guys were arrested. They didn't kill the snowmobile guy because the line broke but the guy's head snapped back. NUTS >:( I think the MTB community and ATV community should open a dialogue and discuss issues. It's apparent that most MTB people don't know a whole lot about ATVs and the ATV people don't know a whole lot about us. Both sides are ignorant of each other. How many times do I have to say it? Same goals for each user group. More trail mileage. Work together? We can make a plan that works for everyone. Don't work together? We can keep fighting forever. Which is better?

[priss]

If registration fees and taxes are the best reason you can give for your right to use the public lands then you all better speed up.


And what exactly is your right to be there? What do you contribute to the state in terms of revenue, or to the state parks in terms of maintenance?

My right to be there must be the same as yours, I'm a resident.
I contribute to state revenue from my paycheck every week, at the pump every time i fill up, at my town hall every year for excise tax, at the registry of motor vehicles when i registered and every year for inspection. I also pay sales tax on the gas, the $35,000 for the truck, a gas guzzler tax, sales tax on the Rancho 6" lift, 36" mud terrain t/a's, warn winch, and roll over protection.
(the following is sarcasm, sort of)
I think you guys should start riding side by side so the trail gets wide enough for me to finish it off. I remember back when it was just MX bikes making those trails and i did'nt have a chance of ever getting in. Then along came the trikes with the big fat tires and locked axels. Almost made things wide enough but they were unstable and folks kept getting hurt. Thank goodness the solution was to add more power and more wheels. I cant wait to see what they come up with to increase the coustermer base with an even easier to ride more powerfull wider wheelbase. Then it's open season on the trails for me. Just let them try and catch me.

When and if they do, i will probably add to the State revenue with a big fine and then get sentenced to 100 hours of community service, doing trail maintenance i suppose.

[ATV_User]

Wow!! What a lot of anger here. It reminds me of a bunch of children running to mommy and yelling that he/she did it. Wa Wa Wa - I'm going to run to DCR, show them some shocking video, and tell on you evil ATV people. Wa Wa Wa - you mountain bike people are just plain mean and want the forest for yourselves.
Destroying a public trail with your ATV is plain wrong. Throwing roofing nails on a trail in order to blow out an ATVs tires is wrong. Running a wire across a trail and hurting or killing an ATV operator is CRIMINAL. Some people might think the line across the trail is just talk but it just happened in New Hampshire about 2 weeks ago on a snowmobile trail and the guys were arrested. They didn't kill the snowmobile guy because the line broke but the guy's head snapped back. NUTS >:( I think the MTB community and ATV community should open a dialogue and discuss issues. It's apparent that most MTB people don't know a whole lot about ATVs and the ATV people don't know a whole lot about us. Both sides are ignorant of each other. How many times do I have to say it? Same goals for each user group. More trail mileage. Work together? We can make a plan that works for everyone. Don't work together? We can keep fighting forever. Which is better?


This is 100% my view and the entire reason for being here. I hope that when the "Trail Maintenance" video gets made and posted, that it gets the same amount of attention (even though we both know it won't). Which is more illegal, a quad on an illegal trail or a bike? Answer: they both are. We can benefit from each other, if we can ALL stay level headed.

The mentality of we pay taxes, so we have the right is BS. It is not right (and not in any of my posts). In reality, the only way to stop illegal riding is to find a place for people to ride, put a true trail maintenance system in place, education of the rider as to the rules and responsibilities, and increase enforcement to make sure people follow the law. Unfortunately, the state doesn't have any of the previously mentioned things. As an ATVer, that is what I am concentrating on.

Even if you guys don't want to admit it, we are all part of the same group, ORVs. The is no M in there for motorized.

[ATV_User]

If registration fees and taxes are the best reason you can give for your right to use the public lands then you all better speed up.


And what exactly is your right to be there? What do you contribute to the state in terms of revenue, or to the state parks in terms of maintenance?

My right to be there must be the same as yours, I'm a resident.
I contribute to state revenue from my paycheck every week, at the pump every time i fill up, at my town hall every year for excise tax, at the registry of motor vehicles when i registered and every year for inspection. I also pay sales tax on the gas, the $35,000 for the truck, a gas guzzler tax, sales tax on the Rancho 6" lift, 36" mud terrain t/a's, warn winch, and roll over protection.
(the following is sarcasm, sort of)
I think you guys should start riding side by side so the trail gets wide enough for me to finish it off. I remember back when it was just MX bikes making those trails and i did'nt have a chance of ever getting in. Then along came the trikes with the big fat tires and locked axels. Almost made things wide enough but they were unstable and folks kept getting hurt. Thank goodness the solution was to add more power and more wheels. I cant wait to see what they come up with to increase the coustermer base with an even easier to ride more powerfull wider wheelbase. Then it's open season on the trails for me. Just let them try and catch me.

When and if they do, i will probably add to the State revenue with a big fine and then get sentenced to 100 hours of community service, doing trail maintenance i suppose.



I read your post a whole bunch of times. Please don't take offense, but your post is useless, your attitude is crappy and is the reason there is so much hatred to the sport.

[biffster]

Remember trail access is not a right, it is a privledge. Just like having a driver's license.

I think the mountain bike community has worked hard to earn that privlege and continues to work to address issues and keep our image as responsible trail users.

ATV users on the other hand had the chance. You were given land. With that land comes responsibility to maintain it so that your impact is minimized and does not impact other trail users. In my opinion (by viewing the video) your group failed to do that.

I have been on the ct riders website and asked them the same questions and all I get is taunts, flaming, and my avatar changed to a picture of a tree hugger. If that is the attitude of your groups in Connecticut then I'm not suprised in the least why areas haven't been opened to you.

I see a gross failure in the ATV community to keep control over the land you were given to ride and maintain. How can the public be expected to give you more areas when the areas you have now are in such gross disrepair and in need of thousands of hours of work?

[ATV_User]

Remember trail access is not a right, it is a privledge. Just like having a driver's license.

I think the mountain bike community has worked hard to earn that privlege and continues to work to address issues and keep our image as responsible trail users.

ATV users on the other hand had the chance. You were given land. With that land comes responsibility to maintain it so that your impact is minimized and does not impact other trail users. In my opinion (by viewing the video) your group failed to do that.

I have been on the ct riders website and asked them the same questions and all I get is taunts, flaming, and my avatar changed to a picture of a tree hugger. If that is the attitude of your groups in Connecticut then I'm not suprised in the least why areas haven't been opened to you.

I see a gross failure in the ATV community to keep control over the land you were given to ride and maintain. How can the public be expected to give you more areas when the areas you have now are in such gross disrepair and in need of thousands of hours of work?


I completely agree. There needs to be changes in the current system to push the maintenance of the land. Having seen all the volunteer hour sheets from the last couple of years, there is approximately 75 - 100 ATVers / Dirt Bike riders doing the maintenance in the forests in western MA. This is unacceptible and will never maintain the land.

[BG]

" It reminds me of a bunch of children running to mommy and yelling that he/she did it. Wa Wa Wa"

Your're right. But Mommy and Daddy need to step up and take control of the situation. This becomes a deal where the kids have more control than the parents.

We really need to help Mommy and Daddy with this one.
Fighting kids who won't listen usually don't get what they want.

BG

[TrailBate]

Next to 495, someone has been riding an ATV up the side of the hill next to the onramp. It's a small loop that goes up the hill, turns just about half way up, then goes back down the hill.
A few months ago, evidently the rider decided that trail was either no longer fun, or unrideable, because a new ATV "trail" has been blazed outside of the old one. THe old one is gutted, especially on the inside, with a lot of rocks exposed.
THIS is the typical ATV rider to most people. Riding illegally, causing damage, then moving to a new spot once the old spot is ripped to hell.
And I can see all this from the highway.

A few miles further south, there is another area where ATV's are riding across onramps and the median of 495 to get to a sand pit on the other side of the highway. The grass here is also ripped up, and you can clearly see over a dozen different paths the ATV's take to cross the highway

In Massasoit, there are several trails that were once singletrack that ATV's have decided to use, despite the "no motor vehicles" signs posted all over the place. The vegatation on both sides of the trail are ripped up and trampled. Any spot where there is a blowdown or a GATE, the ATV's have ridden around them, creating new gutted doubletrack of the side of the main trail. Most of these "detours" were created in less than a week.

In Otis, many of the trails have been reduced to what look like washed out rain gutters, thanks to ATV's. And where turns are too tight, the ATV's have simply cut across and made their own "trails".

Any one of us here can give specific examples like this. They are not the "minority", but appear to be quite the majority of ATV mentality.

[slapheadmofo]

Again, out of curiosity (even though it seems that every other point I've brought up has been ignored), are there ever trail work days where you guys strictly go to places where riding is illegal and fix the damage that's been done there? Or block the myriad 4' wide braids you make once you've made a mud pit so deep you can't even cross it? If so I've got a bunch of suggestions for you, and maybe doing that kind of work as well as helping to block the thousands of well-established illegal 'ORV' entrances to the town forests everywhere would give you guys a much needed boost in popularity. As for taxes,well they're being spent paying for oversized gates and heavy equipment to move boulders into place in a futile attempt keep MOTORIZED vehicles out of where they shouldn't be.

[TrailBate]

I still don't understand what kind of maintanence ATV riders do. I've been to October mountian, where ATV_rider claims maintanence is done, and those "multi use" trails are completely unrideable (at least the ones I tried)
Even if given the benefit of the doubt that maintanence IS done, it is nowhere near the damage caused in the first place.

[Big Game]

This is such a waste. It is like arguing with Al Queada that blowing up babies is bad. The ATV'rs are so entreched in the righteousness of their cause they turn a complete blind eye to the notorious destruction that occurs.

[ATV_User]

Again, out of curiosity (even though it seems that every other point I've brought up has been ignored), are there ever trail work days where you guys strictly go to places where riding is illegal and fix the damage that's been done there? Or block the myriad 4' wide braids you make once you've made a mud pit so deep you can't even cross it? If so I've got a bunch of suggestions for you, and maybe doing that kind of work as well as helping to block the thousands of well-established illegal 'ORV' entrances to the town forests everywhere would give you guys a much needed boost in popularity. As for taxes,well they're being spent paying for oversized gates and heavy equipment to move boulders into place in a futile attempt keep MOTORIZED vehicles out of where they shouldn't be.


Once again, read my post above. 75-100 people do the work for all motorized usage in the parks. This IS the problem. If we need help on the legal trails, then what makes you think that we have the time to do the illegal trails. It is an education problem with the whole "game".

Oh, if there is an illegal trail, we do brush it in. We also build bridges over mud pits. We are putting in gate to keep people out of where they shouldn't be, not taxes (partly our clubs money, mostly grants)! In fact, that is one of the projects that our club is responsible for this season, installing 4 of those gates.

[ATV_User]

This is such a waste. It is like arguing with Al Queada that blowing up babies is bad. The ATV'rs are so entreched in the righteousness of their cause they turn a complete blind eye to the notorious destruction that occurs.


Kinda sounds like that is the problem with SOME of the mountain bikers here (like you). You think that you are the only people that belong in the woods (hikers / hourses included).

No one is denying the fact that there are certain problems with the current system. No one is denying that changes need to be made. No one is denying that ATVs cause damage.

No one should be denying that some of us are out there trying to correct the problem. I say that people like you are a big part of the problem, people that can't have an open mind about something. It goes against your beliefs, so it is wrong.

You didn't answer my previous question though, when i make a trail maintenance video, will you give it the same response?

I have not flamed any of you on this board. My hope is that you guys see that there are people out there that are trying to be responsible and do the right thing.

[TrailBate]

You didn't answer my previous question though, when i make a trail maintenance video, will you give it the same response?

I have not flamed any of you on this board. My hope is that you guys see that there are people out there that are trying to be responsible and do the right thing.


I'm sure most of us will watch and, and I'm sure things about it will be criticized.

I know there are SOME of you that do the right thing. But it's not you that gets noticed, it's all the destructive riders that get noticed. And there are just too many of them.

[WMATV]

Hello:

I am the new president of the Western Mass ATV Association. I have been reading numerous posts on this site, as well as many on other sites referenced here. Between a great deal of rhetoric there are some good valid points, from both points of view.

I can fully understand and appreciate any MTB frustration over damage and destruction of their private trails, as well as any public trails that are specifically designated for MTB use. I’m sure your organization puts significant time, effort, and money into preserving and maintaining the trail systems you use.

I disagree with the notion that banning ATVs on public lands will solve anything. I think it will do just the opposite, make things worse. I think to fully understand the problem, you need to step back beyond the anger and frustration, and look at the entire picture.

Does ORV use impact the trail system? Absolutely no doubt. ALL user groups impact the trail systems in one way or another. Can the impact from ORV use be more significant than other users? I can see that, only if responsible trail management is not maintained. There are many additional factors that have impacts or influence on trail conditions.

There is no one single problem or solution here. There are several. ORV use has not always been restricted to the 5 state forests with legal riding. I honestly do not know the dates and I might not be 100% correct, but as I understand it years ago ORV use was allowed in many, if not all state forests. A complete banning was enacted, followed by opening the current legal areas. The bans did nothing to stop ORV use. Sure occasionally citations were issued, but by and large ORV usage did not slow down.

As everyone here already knows, when the parks where reopened, the ORV clubs agreed to perform 400 hours of maintenance per forest. The MOA’s have become more object specific, but the minimum number of hours has still been performed. Our club maintains Pittsfield State Forest, and as such I have much more knowledge of the immense amount of work performed there. To make a blanket statement claiming this work is not being performed is not accurate, and I find it somewhat insulting. Just because you don’t see it, does not mean it does not exist. Obviously, there is still more to do, and always will be.

The opening of only 5 parks in Western Mass and 1 in Eastern Mass for ORV usage was irresponsible, and lacked planning ahead. These limited areas cannot support the level of resident usage on their own. The fact that riding has been restricted in many neighboring states has only compounded the issue. Much of the required trail restoration is a result of over usage. The state never really had a realistic maintenance program developed. Other nationally known riding areas don’t have this issues because they have programs and plans established to properly maintain the trail system.

Opening more public lands to ORV use will cut down on the damage from over-usage and cut down on the illegal ORV riding on restricted areas. These people will now have somewhere to legally use their ORVs, cutting down on the riding in restricted areas. The parks that do open to ORV use will benefit from having a club or clubs responsible to perform maintenance there as well. Will this eliminate illegal riding? No way. Despite everyone best efforts, there will always be a portion of any society that does not follow rules, and does not care about the consequences of their actions. I personally find this very frustration. There are countless numbers of responsible ORV people contributing to trying to preserve our sport, and they never get the recognition they deserve.

Our club does not have the authority to enforce the laws, just as yours does not either. We do our best to educate other riders to the rules, regulations, requirements, etc of the entire ORV situation. To some it sinks in, to others it does not. I do not advocate vigilantism on the trails to enforce our way of thinking. I would presume neither does your club.

There is been tremendous obstacles to performing the maintenance to the trails as WE believe it needs to be done. We have been restricted from utilizing real, outside contractors from coming in and doing some real work. The DCR has directed clubs to repair areas by using only fieldstones. These areas are beyond that. Monies that were supposed to be set aside specifically for trail development and maintenance have been distributed to other agendas. The state is well aware of the trail issues, but grants significantly larger amounts of money to the snow mobile folks. Why?

Maybe setting up these trails as multi-use was not the correct method to start with. Perhaps each user group should have trails that are designated for their user group only. Although riding through a mud pit is not enjoyable for a MTB, it is for a quad. And it has knowing to do with skill levels. Just look around the country. There are national competitions just for mud pits. Millions and millions of dollars are aimed specifically toward this sport. Instead of trying to lump every user group into one category and trail system, separate them. Is this the complete answer? Of course not.

The negative postings on all of our sites will never accomplish anything. Our club, I’m sure just like yours, is a responsible one. If the various responsible clubs were to work together to solve some of these issues, perhaps all the bickering on the forums would not exist. If your officers or board members would like to discuss what the clubs could do together to improve the situation for ALL OF US, I extend the invitation.

Steve

[slapheadmofo]

Again, out of curiosity (even though it seems that every other point I've brought up has been ignored), are there ever trail work days where you guys strictly go to places where riding is illegal and fix the damage that's been done there? Or block the myriad 4' wide braids you make once you've made a mud pit so deep you can't even cross it? If so I've got a bunch of suggestions for you, and maybe doing that kind of work as well as helping to block the thousands of well-established illegal 'ORV' entrances to the town forests everywhere would give you guys a much needed boost in popularity. As for taxes,well they're being spent paying for oversized gates and heavy equipment to move boulders into place in a futile attempt keep MOTORIZED vehicles out of where they shouldn't be.


Once again, read my post above. 75-100 people do the work for all motorized usage in the parks. This IS the problem. If we need help on the legal trails, then what makes you think that we have the time to do the illegal trails. It is an education problem with the whole "game".

Oh, if there is an illegal trail, we do brush it in. We also build bridges over mud pits. We are putting in gate to keep people out of where they shouldn't be, not taxes (partly our clubs money, mostly grants)! In fact, that is one of the projects that our club is responsible for this season, installing 4 of those gates.


It's good to hear that you guys are making that sort of effort, though I belive you're only paying for those gates at the particular park you where you ride (?) and taxes take care of the vast majority of that kind of thing at parks across the state?

There's a big difference between having an open mind and ignoring the facts of the matter. In the interest of having an open mind, I'd like to hear what sort of solution you'd suggest for a forest in a densely propulated area such as Lowell-Dracut or Leominster that you think would work, keeping in mind the fact that quads don't have the right to destroy the existing trails everyone has worked so hard to preserve and maintain, or to trash enviromentally sensitive areas. How many riders in these types of areas do you think are involved in the solutions to this rather than creating the problems? I'm betting it's a really low percentage, nowhere near enough to supply the funds and manpower needed.

Also, where do you think the line should be drawn on what is allowed in the woods? Priss does have a point - somewhere between feet (total access) and a recreational bulldozer (no access) there's a line (or maybe a sliding scale sort of thing) as to what should be allowed on trails. That line is determined by environmental damage and impact to other trail users. The less of these you cause, the more access you should get. That's where your choice of vehicle screws you guys. Quads are simply unfit for most trails and are impossible to ride sensitively, even if the operators were so inclined, which the vast majority are NOT. That's why you're stuck w/ only a couple hundred miles of legal trails. And like you said, you're having trouble maintaining those. What do you think it would be like if the same 100 guys were trying to maintain hundreds of additional miles of trails? Total destruction. I have an open mind, but not open enough to ignore logic or reality.

[MTBME]

"Our club, I’m sure just like yours, is a responsible one. "
Steve

I didn't see a lot of responsible behaviour in that video. In fact there wasn't much in that video that was defensible. Funny how much video was used to show the ATV's trecking through the deep mud and water. Like that's the highlight of the ride. You guys are your own worst enemies.

[TrailBate]

some things I'd like to know:

In forests where there is legal ATV riding, are there also trails NOT open to ATV's? If so, what do they look like?

Also, for parks that DO allow ATV use, what do nearby parks that DO NOT allow them look like?

Thirdly, what ATV trails have been maintained recently, and what do they look like?

My problem with the latest pro-ATV arguments is that I don't believe opening more forests to ATV's will protect other parks from illegal ATV rides.

I also agree with the previous argument that how much space you get should be inversely proportional to how much damage you do. ATV's do a lot of damage, and require much more effort and money to repair than bikes and hikers. For those of us who like a quiet ride/walk through the woods, having to listen to ATV's roaring all over the place drives other users away, which is another reason ATV's should have fewer places to ride.

Maybe these ATV clubs should do a better job policing themselves. If you know of an area where a lot of illegal riding is going on, go out there and try to find these people and try to educate them. Go out there and block all these trails off to ATV riders.

Until you guys can prove that you can be responsible park users, you have no right getting any more parks to ride in.

[WMATV]

In forests where there is legal ATV riding, are there also trails NOT open to ATV's? If so, what do they look like?

Yes there are. Not too sure what they all look like. Our maintenance efforts as directed by the DCR do not include those trails.


Also, for parks that DO allow ATV use, what do nearby parks that DO NOT allow them look like?

Again, not too sure. I go to Hopkinton State Park for picnicking, swimming, etc. I have not personally seen ATV use there, but would not be surprised if it existed.


Thirdly, what ATV trails have been maintained recently, and what do they look like?

One of our work parties we rebuilt and lengthen an older bridge over an area that had alot of go-around activity. Many of the trails are rocky, and most don't have the mud holes seen in that video.


Maybe these ATV clubs should do a better job policing themselves. If you know of an area where a lot of illegal riding is going on, go out there and try to find these people and try to educate them. Go out there and block all these trails off to ATV riders.

We do. We turn in license plate numbers of trucks illegally riding on trails. We have called the authorities about folks riding in restricted areas. We hire EPOs for some of our events.

[BigMac]

Interesting that you guys are so quick to point fingers. I will be back to post a video for you guys showing us pulling load after load of rock and fill into the forests to fill some of these holes. I will show draining of these holes, replacement of water bars, cleanning / installation of water bars, plus a whole lot more.

What you guys seem to forget is that we all fall into the same category. I would be more than happy to post information about renegade mountain bikers too (since the DCR has the information, long story, but I'm sure you could pick up a magazine last year and figure that out), if it interested me to sling crap your way.

It is obvious that you really don't understand the whole game in the state. Maybe your organization should come to the berkshire trails council meetings. It might interest you to hear the whole story.
Crap!!!! You can never compare the destruction caused by a Quad compared to a bike I would love to see a Quad (Tread Lightly)!

[BigMac]

You guys need to move on. If you see ATVers riding out of season or not on legal trails then call the police or other law enforcement agencies. Posting photos with bullseyes is not constructive.

Riding through a mudhole on a legal ATV trail during the ATV season on a Mass registered ATV is legal. If you don't like it then move. If you are truly worried about these forests then go after the logging industry or people building new homes.

You guys are starting to really piss me off!
I really couldent care less where you all ride if you have (permission) but when you have what used to be a small, tight, piece of single track that is woven between trees otherwise to close for a ATV to fit. and burn out marks makeing new tarils around trees to get into the trails that is total crap and obvious disregard for others-SO SPARE ME.

[TrailBate]

In forests where there is legal ATV riding, are there also trails NOT open to ATV's? If so, what do they look like?

Yes there are. Not too sure what they all look like. Our maintenance efforts as directed by the DCR do not include those trails.

My point was to see if ATV's are staying off trails they're suppose to stay off of.





Maybe these ATV clubs should do a better job policing themselves. If you know of an area where a lot of illegal riding is going on, go out there and try to find these people and try to educate them. Go out there and block all these trails off to ATV riders.

We do. We turn in license plate numbers of trucks illegally riding on trails. We have called the authorities about folks riding in restricted areas. We hire EPOs for some of our events.



well, that's the best thing I've read from an ATV guy so far!

[BG]

WMATV, I'm curious, from your perspective how is atv'ing in general, legal or not, percieved overall in your area by other trail users, dcr, public ect. Is there more acceptance/tolerance/co-operation "out there"?

BG

[kernel crash]

Your asking him to give you an unbiased account as to how their perceived? That should be interesting.

[biffster]

The following photo was pulled from bikerag and was taken in Meriden CT at castle craig which is a hiking biking area only and closed to motorized use.

This is what the public sees every day. How do you think the public percieves this when their tax dollars are spent to repair this?

http://pics.bikerag.com/Uploads/data//500/medium/cropDSCF1786.jpg

[BG]

The following photo was pulled from bikerag and was taken in Meriden CT at castle craig which is a hiking biking area only and closed to motorized use.

This is what the public sees every day. How do you think the public percieves this when their tax dollars are spent to repair this?

http://pics.bikerag.com/Uploads/data//500/medium/cropDSCF1786.jpg


Pretty much like: Hmmm maybe something far more than just putting up another fence for him to run down or putting up another sign to say STOP IT PLEASE. Like petitioning the state to do something about it, if it is truly that damn important to the people and the state to "save the environment", and only the state police, epo's and sometimes local police are the only ones with the authority to do anything about it, let's find a way to enable them to. Making it illegal isn't going to help, it already IS.

BG

[biffster]

I found this site. All about ATV acts and links to stories of things thaey have done to farmers and landowners. Check it out:

http://billstclair.com/ferran/atvtrespass.html

[Slider]

Wow!!! That link represents a serious backlash against ATVs. It is clear that we as mountain bikers need to distance ourselves as much as possible. They can't be long for the legal world.

There seems to be a deep cultural difference between us and the ATVers. We don't carry weapons, and save the beer for after the ride. I can't picture a group of bikers beating a farmer nearly to death, or killing his cattle. We may trespass, but we do not leave much of a trace, so little confrontation results.

I was a dirt biker for several years. I quit because of cost and injuries, but also because it got harder and harder to find places to ride. Only now, after the fact, do I understand how offensive the noise, pollution and trail destruction is.

It REALLY underscores the importance of NEMBA and other associations like it. The ATV community is clearly not very cohesive, and lacks positive PR, to put it mildly.

It seems clear to me that ATV riders are on borrowed time. WMATV - ever ride a mountain bike? You might like it. Maybe not. But your sport seems kinda doomed, don't you think?

Slider

[Big Game]

Here's a list of some more crassic posts from our ATV osama wannabees:. http://www.borntoexplore.org/trails/atvs.htm


Still, some ORV user has to answer my question --- what they heck is wrong with dirt bikes? Why is there such a demand for ATV's? What is it that you can't do on a dirtbike that you need an ATV for? If your goal is to travel through the woods on a motorized vehicle, and you are not disabled, then why shouldn't you be restricted to two wheels?

[Big Game]

We don't carry weapons, and save the beer for after the ride.


Speak for yourself. I'll leave you to guess what I'm usually loaded with.

Only kidding. Or am I?

I used to have a KDX200 myself. Damn thing needed at least $75 and fours hours of work for every ride. It was fun to ride, but it was bleeding me dry and was a source of constant frustration. Luckily, some punk kids stole it. Got a mountain bike instead and haven't missed my dirtbike at all.

Big Game wrote:


Still, some ORV user has to answer my question --- what they heck is wrong with dirt bikes? Why is there such a demand for ATV's? What is it that you can't do on a dirtbike that you need an ATV for? If your goal is to travel through the woods on a motorized vehicle, and you are not disabled, then why shouldn't you be restricted to two wheels?

Nothing is wrong with dirtbikes. It's just a different type of riding.

Different spin: Why do you off-road bike instead of street ride? Or do you do both? Is it cause you like both styles? Same with atvs.

H

[digger]

In reality, the only way to stop illegal riding is to find a place for people to ride, put a true trail maintenance system in place, education of the rider as to the rules and responsibilities, and increase enforcement to make sure people follow the law. Unfortunately, the state doesn't have any of the previously mentioned things. As an ATVer, that is what I am concentrating on.

I think there are a lot of us that support the concept that ATVs need and deserve some use of state lands. I know I was at the hearings that were held (longer ago than I'd like to admit) prior to the current DEM/DCR management arrangement. Most mt. bikers supported ATV use at that time.

But clearly the management plan is busted. I'm curious what you feel might be an appropriate way for DCR to manage ATV use going forward. If this resulted in additional fees for ATV users to help defray the costs for more enforcement and trail restoration, do you think that might be accepted? Are there any published guidelines for responsible sustainable ATV use that might be agreeable to both DCR and ATVers?

[slapheadmofo]

Got home tonite and could hear a couple quads ripping around in the woods across the street where the Midstate Trail runs. I can't even imagine what I'm going to find when I get out there.

:'(

I'm so sick of losing trails to those things.

[gnurider1080]

Got home tonite and could hear a couple quads ripping around in the woods across the street where the Midstate Trail runs. I can't even imagine what I'm going to find when I get out there.

:'(

I'm so sick of losing trails to those things.

you and me both.

[slapheadmofo]

Something from the link Biffster posted:

"Individual ATV-riders will sometimes exploit the notoriety of local ATV-gangs, and the ineffectiveness of the local Police, by playing the game of "Good-ATV/Bad-ATV", for example, by warning a landowner that if he does not allow the "Good"-ATVs to use (continue using) and "patrolling" his land, the Bad-ATVs will come (back). This is a subtle form of extortion, which has also been exploited on a larger scale by major state ATV associations to induce the voting public to cede public lands and other concessions to the local ATV-Lobby that credibly warns the public of continuing/increasing criminal conduct (e.g., trespass, vandalism, vindictiveness, resistance to arrest) on the part of ATV-riders if their political demands are not complied with."

The ATV "gang' labal sounds pretty over-the-top, but the rest of it sounds somewhat like what I've seen posted in parts of this thread.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

You guys need to move on. If you see ATVers riding out of season or not on legal trails then call the police or other law enforcement agencies.

Don't worry, I do.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

FROM YOUR WEBSITE

"August 22nd Beartown Ride: Another perfect day for a club ride. Heavy rain the day before added to the excitement for the fourteen members that attended this 20 mile ride."

Yeah, that's responsible.

[BigMac]

thats not moving on Kevin-
thats ok though, I used to ride and like atv's when I was a kid, but know I am on the other side of it and I am a user of the trails and I see all the (DESTRUCTION) caused by ATV'S/QUADS. Just remember I am not saying that all riders are out ther doing damage. But I've seen plenty who are.

[TrailBate]

"We will continue to ruin your trails if you don't make a place for us to ride. You can't catch us all." - LimpRyan14@aol.com

"The thing that discusts me most about your site is that you stereotype all offroad riders not just the ones tearing up your hiking trails. I too have torn up some hiking trails ard removed some signs. I did not do this until my right to ride was threatened. The more you enviromentalists bitch and whine and call the cops the more fun and exiting it is for us thrill seekers. maybe you just need to get on a motorcycle to understand. or maybe if you just looked at it from our side. Until your state realizes offroading is good for the economy and the fastest growing leisure activity and sets aside some land ,keep eating dust. oh ya pound those signs back in its fun to run em over and piss you people off" Wrconceptz@aol.com

"hate is the worst thing in this world. beocuse if peopel like you who bitch about every little thing make me hate you.
all we want is a place to have fun. the more you complain the worse were gonna be. Why not put something together so we can ride legaly? hey, at least were not out selling crack, were only having fun liek kids are soposed to do." MiFLiGTi@aol.com

"You have to be the most disrespectfull whore i have ever heard of. You must have some social issues. If u have a problem with the usage of atv's and dirtbikes on public property, u have issues with every atv and dirtbke rider in the nation. Maybe your taxpayers should put a litte money asde for some legal riding land instead of buying there new ferraris or vipers. get some common sense. we have no where to ride, exept illegal areas and your front lawn. if the bulldozer are in the picture, can't they fix the trails and prevent them from breaking, im sure 7,000,000 is enough money to get some maintenance done, and a face lift/ nose job for your busted skank ass. get some friends u underated whore. crack kills....." Jordan Rancourt supafly694u@yahoo.com

"Please excuse my grammatical errors when reading this e-mail has i do have two degrees which i guesss has nothing on the imbreed homeschooling either your mother or your auntgave to you since they are the same person. I suggest to you that instead of worrying about some backwoods ORV people you take the time to inform yourself that a lot of them are well educated. I am from idaho where we have numerous land specifically designed for atv and dirtbikers. Why? so people like you don't have to miss church to stay around and argue about how the horses they used to cuddle up to are not spooked anymore piss off" - (name deleted at request of very nice parents)

"you should leave this kids alone.would u rather them sell drugs or have fun and ride there atvs. and then for u to call them self centered and you think that every one dosent want these kids haveing fun. you should have a town vote to decide if you should leave this kids alone or buil them a track. then you stereotype them bye makeing that web site and saying that every atver destroys and tears up trails and your preicuos signs.i say LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE. maybe if u had a life or knew how to have fun you would buy a quad and quit your bitching." - GaryColemanLvr@aol.com

"u people r stupid let people ride were ever they want" - BMXurMAT14@cs.com

"you know that every time a kid in this town finds a way to stay off drugs and out of trouble the city decides to take that away from us. they bulldozed the bike jumps 5 times in one summer, and then when we video taped the mayor there he said that private boat ramp owners had it done and the space where the jumps where is public open space. and what is PUBLIC OPEN SPACE if the public ( all of us residents are the public) and you decide to restrict who can use these spaces. so i think you all need to leave the kids and open space alone. please tell me where your front yard is, id love to spin my tires all over it. the point of public open space is for the public, not the city to say only some, not all, can use." - Sin024@aol.com

"let me tell you, once a kid gets a bike or quad, he wont stop because his neighbor is complaning, or someone from the city says something negative about them, the only way is to build a local track for them to ride. that is the only solution for this problem and of course you people wont do anything. it is plain and simple build a track and stop the complaning." - ALASBIGZ24@aol.com

[kernel crash]

Build your own track with your own money. And while your at it, set aside a few bucks for some spelling lessons. Well that pretty much shows the mentality were up against.

[Goldstar78i]

Well, if there truly is no good legal place to ride, why do people buy quads? For the most part, I don't mind if quads ride on public hiking/biking trails. A lot of the trails around here are rocky and rooty, damage is minimum even when its muddy.

The part that I hate is when you completely disrespect other peoples property. We don't want quads or any motorized vehicle on our 68 acres of land, we post signs on the trees at the entrances of the trails that go onto our property. Do you pay attention to the signs? No. Do you stay on the trails? No. Do you even ask us if you can ride? Nope. If you get hurt on our land, I bet you'll come into contact with us real quick. Its not just a few bad apples. People from all over who own quads just ride here. You chase animals, drink beer, and leave the bottles all over the place. You have all the fun on the trails and none of the responsibility. So many of you have ridden right by our house and wonder why we call the police on you.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

"Maybe your taxpayers should put a litte money asde for some legal riding land instead of buying there new ferraris or vipers"

This is my FAVORITE quote. An out-of-stater telling us what to do with OUR (not your) taxes. That was easily the most insane thing I had ever heard until he concluded that our state spends money on sports cars.

Could someone show me one documented case of the Massachusetts Government buying a sports car?

[BG]

This is all enforcing a growing feeling of mine that maybe the "groups" who believe that there should be no human recreation in the "woods" are truly onto something.

BG

"Maybe your taxpayers should put a litte money asde for some legal riding land instead of buying there new ferraris or vipers"

This is my FAVORITE quote. An out-of-stater telling us what to do with OUR (not your) taxes. That was easily the most insane thing I had ever heard until he concluded that our state spends money on sports cars.

Could someone show me one documented case of the Massachusetts Government buying a sports car?

This quote, and others referenced were not taken from mass based sites, and probably was not about anyone in mass. You can probably find a site out there with mountain biker's uneducated quotes. The land restrictions and illegal riding is not unique to 4-wheelers. Not defending the quotes listed; they don't correctly represent all atv'rs points of view.

they don't correctly represent all atv'rs points of view.

Actually they don't respresent most atv'rs point of view.

[TrailBate]

it's amazing how many posts, pictures, stories, etc, we can come up with of destructive irresponsible ATV riders, yet they continue to claim they are the "minority." ::)

[BG]

I must say i do love it when tax money is spent on acceptable environmental abominations such as public swimming areas, campgrounds, motorized boat launches, golf courses, visitor parking lots, paved rail trails, ect. ect.

BG

[slapheadmofo]

Next time you have a few mintues to kill - google "mountain bike problem" and scan thru the results for a few pages. Now do the same thing with "ATV problem".

It should be obvious that bikers should do everything they can to make sure we're not associated with ATVs. Seems that someone with a reliable remote vehicle disabling device would be able to make a fortune in the country right now...hmm...if you need me, I'll be in the labor-a-tory....

[off piste]

Next time you have a few mintues to kill - google "mountain bike problem" and scan thru the results for a few pages. Now do the same thing with "ATV problem".

It should be obvious that bikers should do everything they can to make sure we're not associated with ATVs. Seems that someone with a reliable remote vehicle disabling device would be able to make a fortune in the country right now...hmm...if you need me, I'll be in the labor-a-tory....


I used to have a little gadget that looked like a garage door opener that set off radar detectors. It pretty much had the effect of a "remote vehicle disabling device" on the highway.

[kernel crash]

""maybe the "groups" who believe that there should be no human recreation in the "woods" are truly onto something""

Or on something!

What groups would that be???

[off piste]

""maybe the "groups" who believe that there should be no human recreation in the "woods" are truly onto something""

Or on something!

What groups would that be???


Well, if you count schizophrenia and Multiple Personality Disorder as an organized group:

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/

[BG]

http://www.sharetrails.org/index.cfm?page=233

We are all just another item on the food chain.
While we are fighting amongst ourselves we set the stage for our own demise.

Hmmm, that Harley looks better al the time.

BG

[MTBME]

"Well, if you count schizophrenia and Multiple Personality Disorder as an organized group:

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ "

Well all that proves is there no shortages of wackos out there. How are you going to get the hunters out of the woods? They have a strong lobby and... they have weapons!

The ATV's will be out there as long as there's another piece of dirt to churn up. And us? We'll do our best to avoid getting shot or run over. Ahh, its a brave new world.

[ride in maine]

As long as it is acceptable to run and tear things up with a atv it will continue.
It is allabout education which is apparently not there by some of the spelling that was seen.
the situation needs to be taken care of at very beginning,the tv commercial shows them ripping up over a hill with the dirt and mud flying around with the little caption underneath which says
(ride responsibly and the rider is a professional) and this is what they see(the atvers) is that this is responsibly. so untill that image is changed then your not going to change the minds of kids that see that .the best thing that can be done is to put some distance between the atvers and the mtnbikers, and keep the single track nice and tight so that they (the atvers) cannot ride ti and ruin it. there little piece of earth will continue to get smaller and smaller.and then and only then will it be all over for them. best Calvin Weeks

[biffster]

I gave up on trying to have a conversation with these people. I went on ctriders.com to try and have a logical discussion and all I was met with was threats and all other sorts of B.S.

A couple years ago I would have been willing to help and support their cause, but in recent years their treatment of other trail users and complete disrespect for landower's rights has me thinking otherwise.

Two things I'm going to do out of all this:

1. Join NEMBA.

2. Get involved with more trail projects and do more work on my local trails.

[TrailBate]

ctriders.com? I thought there weren't any legal places to ride in ct?

They have their own private land.

[TrailBate]

really? anyone have any pics of that place?

[off piste]

Sounds like the solution -- they pay for and maintain their own private play areas. That way they can take a big, steaming squat in the middle of their own living room.

Intelligent response.

[slapheadmofo]

Make sure when you say 'private property' you specify that it's with permission of the landowner. Seems to be another major issue with those things.

Still wondering if any ATVers looking at this can describe a realistic situation where the they can share trails w/o ruining them for everyone else...anyone?

[Rych]

I'm definitley for keeping the atvs off the trails, however it seems a lot of the arguments being thrown at the ATVers are the same arguments the wheeledlocust.org (Dead link I think) were throwing at the fells mountain bikers.

[slapheadmofo]

I'm probably gonna catch some flak for this, but if bikers made every place we rode look like the Fells did the last time I was there, then I'd may be for banning us too. I haven't been there in a few years now - all the off-limits riding, trail braiding, ruts and sally lines were too damn embarrassing for me. Dunno if it's changed much since then; sure hope so.

Luckily, that kind of situation seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

[nhiker]

I'm probably gonna catch some flak for this, but if bikers made every place we rode look like the Fells did the last time I was there, then I'd may be for banning us too. I haven't been there in a few years now - all the off-limits riding, trail braiding, ruts and sally lines were too damn embarrassing for me. Dunno if it's changed much since then; sure hope so.

Luckily, that kind of situation seems to be the exception rather than the rule.


I don't see why anyone should have an issue with this statement! We need to keep the pressure up on mountainbikers. Not all Mountainbikers are aware of the stakes involved. We as a group need to avoid the rose colored glasses and keep educating and pressuring our own ranks.

[Big Game]

I don't see why anyone should have an issue with this statement! We need to keep the pressure up on mountainbikers. Not all Mountainbikers are aware of the stakes involved. We as a group need to avoid the rose colored glasses and keep educating and pressuring our own ranks.


You are so right. A bit of responsibilty goes alooong way. The word is out there people, but we also should not just focus our efforts on the warning people not to ride muddy trails and give those who really want to ride something to do.


So much of it comes down to proper trail design and maintenace. The once Anti-MTB force in my area of Tyler mill in CT, said to me, after only one year of an organized effort to get the trails in better shape "yeah things are improving...it looks like a lot less riders are using the trails."

I know this in not true. In fact, more users are on the trails. But good designs make a more traffic possbile. Poor designs make even slight traffic unbearable. We've been slowly repairing trouble spots...doing our best to eliminate pussy paths..keeping it high and dry...closing the renegade trails that really p'd them off. But then too rerouting with TTF's so MTB'rs feel the love come back to them.

Also, we do a good job of self-policing....something completely non-existent the ATV world, where irresponsible trail riding is winked upon.

[Ozzy]

Let’s put that argument to rest. Just because someone can buy something and they pay taxes does not mean that they get free reign. If someone buys a gun, that dosn't mean they can have target practice in their urban/suburban back yard. If someone buys a small plane, they can't use the roads as runways. If someone buys a jet ski, they can’t take it to the municipal pool.


And just because you bought a Mountain Bike doesn't give you any more right to the trails that were by and large created by Dirt Bikes and atv's.

[Ozzy]

Nobody here (that I know of) is complaining about ATV's on ATV trails. We're complaining about ATV's riding on trails closed to motor vehicles, and singletracks.

That's funny, becasue this entire thread was started based upon a video of atv's on a multi-use trail, which means ATV's can be LAWFULLY operated on them.


Most mtbers can give you specific examples of trails that were made unrideable by atv use.


Like... logging trails... and.... trails MADE by atv's?



Do mtbers make trails unusable for everyone else?



Seems to me thats what this entire thread is about doing...



No doubt there are bad MTBers who cause damage and ride illegally, and they too should be punished.


How about... if a few MTBers damage the trails, ban them all from all of the trails... that's reasonable, just like banning atv'ers... right?



But it is nothing compared to damage that ATV users do.


And you have more right to those trails than us... even though we made 'em... agreed!!!


And yes, we go after loggers and any other kind of land developers too.


Do you do anything besides go after people??? It seems like there are an awful lot of Mt. bikers out to get the atv'ers, and very few atv'ers trying to infringe the Mt. Bkers... just an observation.

[TrailBate]

Nobody here (that I know of) is complaining about ATV's on ATV trails. We're complaining about ATV's riding on trails closed to motor vehicles, and singletracks.

That's funny, becasue this entire thread was started based upon a video of atv's on a multi-use trail, which means ATV's can be LAWFULLY operated on them.


Most mtbers can give you specific examples of trails that were made unrideable by atv use.


Like... logging trails... and.... trails MADE by atv's?



Do mtbers make trails unusable for everyone else?



Seems to me thats what this entire thread is about doing...



No doubt there are bad MTBers who cause damage and ride illegally, and they too should be punished.


How about... if a few MTBers damage the trails, ban them all from all of the trails... that's reasonable, just like banning atv'ers... right?



But it is nothing compared to damage that ATV users do.


And you have more right to those trails than us... even though we made 'em... agreed!!!


And yes, we go after loggers and any other kind of land developers too.


Do you do anything besides go after people??? It seems like there are an awful lot of Mt. bikers out to get the atv'ers, and very few atv'ers trying to infringe the Mt. Bkers... just an observation.




yawn yawn yawn.

No, you guys do NOT make singletracks. If you could, that would be some really crazy stunt riding.
Yes, that video was used as an example as to why you guys should not get any more trails because of the extreme damage you do. Keep your rutted muddy roads, leave the singletrack to the rest of us. ATV's do not make TRAILS, they make rutted, gutted, muddy, ROADS.
Do we go after anyone besides people?! Duh! Yeah, we go after elephants too!
We want to ban ATVers because by nature, EVERY ATV causes damage. Those that decide to do it on trails where you are offlimits, are NOT among the minority. There are thousands of you.

[slapheadmofo]

Let’s put that argument to rest. Just because someone can buy something and they pay taxes does not mean that they get free reign. If someone buys a gun, that dosn't mean they can have target practice in their urban/suburban back yard. If someone buys a small plane, they can't use the roads as runways. If someone buys a jet ski, they can’t take it to the municipal pool.


And just because you bought a Mountain Bike doesn't give you any more right to the trails that were by and large created by Dirt Bikes and atv's.


;D Another funny guy...where do you get this idea that if it weren't for ATVs, there would be no trails? Get a clue.
In certain cases you're right about dirt bikes (those are the ones with TWO wheels btw) making trails back in the day, but you must be pretty wet behind the ears to think that any of the legal trails we ride out there were created by quads. Maybe abused and widened to the point of hardly being trails anymore, but not created - big difference. And keep in mind that some of us have been out on these same trails since before you guys even figured you needed to add a fourth wheel to keep from rolling over all the time. Some of us rode dirt bikes back then too, but gave it up once the guys that were too lame to learn how to ride on two wheels turned our favorite trails into dirt roads and rutted mud pits. The trails were there before quads and they were skinny, the way they should be. All you guys have done is ruin whatever you've ridden for 20 years now, and you want to be allowed to trash all the rest too. Way to be.

How about giving a few examples from among all these 1000s of miles of great trails ATVers have contributed to us in MA? Not pre-existing trails that you guys blew out, but real multi-use trails designed, constructed and maintained successfully by ATV riders? I'd love to go check them out. Don't hurt yourself trying to come up with an extensive list, 3 or 4 examples would be fine. Good luck.

[bdee]

Slap said it best Ozzy, read his post over and over until you figure out that the only people that want doubletrack are ATV riders.

You want to know why we're so pissed? It's most likely because the people on this board have spent time building singletrack, only to witness it's destruction via widening and rutting caused by ATVs. How do we know it's an ATV and not a MX bike? Tire tread width gives it away.

We all damage trails (from hikers to horses to bikes etc.), it's an inherent part of trail use that needs to be managed via proper trail creation. And in some cases the creation of seperate trails are needed.

It takes a lot less time for one ATV to destroy a well built singletrack then it takes hordes of mtbs, or hikers, or even horses to destroy any trail - be it single, double or triple wide. This is why we get really, really angry at ATVs. Is it right to blame you all ? Of course not. There are plenty of responsible ATV riders. Unfortunately for you guys all it takes is one ATV to ruin a trail beyond reasonable repair.

If you want good examples of trails destroyed by ATVs - (these were narrow MX trails to begin with) go take a walk around in Franklin SF in SE MA. Much of what was singletrack is now two deep ruts with a flat spot in the middle. Oh yeah, and the trails are wide enough to drive a car down them. I wonder how they got that way?

Your logic (as addressed earlier by Slap) is extremely flawed. We don't owe ATVs jackshit when it comes to the trails we ride. In many cases we owe the MXers, but in just as many cases we end up improving their old trails as well.