ATV Trail Destruction Video

[Jisch]

In many cases we owe the MXers, but in just as many cases we end up improving their old trails as well.


Not to mention the fact that after MTBs ride an MX built trail, its still fun for MXers ride them.

John

[Big Game]

I came up on a brilliant idea today when I passed the public golf course in town. Golf carts. Yep...it's obviously the stability of four-wheels is what ATV's need to feel safe in the woods. Hey, two wheels is a risky proposition. If you're riding a two-wheeler and if you don't have any balance, you could fall. And if you fall, you may be injured. And a lot of times injuries hurt. Hurting is bad. I don't want to people to hurt.

But at the same time, I don't want the trails and woods to hurt either. But quads becuase they are over-powered, unecessarily wide (unless feeding one's own narcicism is a necessity) and heavy and lack differentials, make the ground cry.

So that's where golf carts come in. If a Golf carts is gentle enough for a fairway, its gentle enough for some hard-pack cinder trails. Some golf carts are electric too so they are quiet and nice. Golf carts are good like ATV's becuase you don't need to expend much energy. The motor does the work. Yay!


[voice of ATV'r]
Then I have more energy to buy pissing Calvin stickers for my Dodge Ram. Do you like it when Calvin pisses on a ford symbol? He he he. The shareholders of Ford should fear this. There is so much to fear. I got a hemi, I'm not sure what that is, but it is probably good becuase the ad make it seem real good. And the ads always have fats losers like myself with hot wives and big American houses. That is so cool becuase I am a fat loser and I would like to have a hot wife and a bigger American house.

And Chevies suck too, becuase their trucks do not have the big rig look of my Dodge Ram. I like the big rig look of my truck becuase big trucks intimidate me. So I figure, that if I drive a big rig looking truck, I must be intimidating other motorisits as well. Intimiatditon is good becuase then people won't mess with you. And people always want to mess with me and I can't adequately express my emotions in sentences or ever admit that I may have neen even slightly in the wrong, so it is best just to by a lift-kit for my Dodge and a sticker that says "fear this."

[/voice of ATV'r]

But if golf carts don't provide enough adreniline pumping thrills as quads, then you can pimp them out with sony playstations. That would be rad. Off road 4 wheelers would be happy getting their adrenline fix by pretending they are Batman or Scoobie Doo in a gorgeous digitial tapestry glowing from a superflat LCD screen. Watch out for the trap door there, Shaggy. Well here's one mystery solved, keep your own hot steamy poop in your own pants. Don't throw it in our faces. Thanks a bunch for your help in keeping ATV riders out of places they shouldn't be. Cheers,

[Loco]

I just snarfed beer on my computer screen.

[radair]

Classic, Big Game. I enjoyed that.

I wonder if they could make a hemi-powered electric golf cart.

With a Calvin sticker.

it's obviously the stability of four-wheels is what ATV's need to feel safe in the woods. Hey, two wheels is a risky proposition. If you're riding a two-wheeler and if you don't have any balance, you could fall.

I have to laugh at this type of repeated childish comments. If you don't like atvs, then you don't like atvs. You're anger about the destruction of private and single track trails are legitimate. But to start with the "you can't balance on two wheels".....please. I would think you guys are above this kind of thing. That’s the kind of argument I'd expect from a couple of 6 year old girls.

H

[Big Game]

I have to laugh at this type of repeated childish comments. If you don't like atvs, then you don't like atvs. You're anger about the destruction of private and single track trails are legitimate. But to start with the "you can't balance on two wheels".....please. I would think you guys are above this kind of thing. That’s the kind of argument I'd expect from a couple of 6 year old girls.



Yo H-Bomb...a couple 6 years olds? Come on, you're only destroying what little credibility you have left. EVERYONE knows it takes at least 5 six year old girls to match my wit. .

Actually, if you noticed, I changed my position. I didn't say you couldn't balance on two wheels. I am sure you can. I merely mentioned that ATV'rs prefer the comfort and security of having four wheels on the ground. Is this not true? Is this not something a Golf Cart could provide? Please don't hold me responsible for your insecurities. I am only here as a humble observer.

And if you ever invited me over to your house for a few drinks, you know I'd use a coaster. I'd hate to carelessly ruin any of your fine furniture with water damage. I'm sure you'd agree with me that senseless destruction of property speaks volumes to ones' character.

EVERYONE knows it takes at least 5 six year old girls to match my wit. .

See - now that's funny. :)

[slapheadmofo]

I don't think the big problem is a lack of the ability of the average quad rider to enjoy the trails in a way that causes less impact, more a lack of concern wrt other users. There also seems to be some delusion that without ATVs, we'd have a trail shortage - that's plain silly.

Henry, you seem like a reasonable guy, I gotta ask again, what do you picture as a workable plan if ATVs were to be integrated into more trail systems? Is there a way to keep 'open season' from being declared on narrow hiking and biking paths? All it takes is a few quads to blow out a trail, and when the next guy comes thru and sees that others have been there, well, we all know how that goes. Bye bye sweet trail, hello lame torn up doubletrack.

Would there be any effort to go out beforehand and do the work that needs to be done to prepare the trails (and wetland areas) for what's about to happen to them? Bridges built, steep slopes dealt with to keep them from being chewed up and washed out, signage, some sort of maintenance arrangement, etc etc. Without that sort of effort up front, if you just suddenly declared a trail system open to ATVs, the result would be a big friggin mess that would get progressively worse.

Safety is another thing. Always a big surprise to come around a corner at a good rate of speed and there's a family with little kids and the dog scattered across the trail on a Sunday walk. I don't see any way there could be some sort of enforcable speed limits or anything like that, so now it's now it's everyone's responsiblity to stay out of your way or suffer the consequences? That's not right. Oh and don't forget the noise.

Basically, what I hear is a lot of 'we want in' but very very little 'this is what we'll do to make it work', and that's from the minority or riders who bother to concern themselves with legal access at all. Come over to the dark side why dontcha? We got lot of nice trails. Spandex is even optional these days thank god. :)

[ATV_User]

You know, when I forst came over here, I had little respect for the way you guys conducted youself. Through some posts, I gained some respect. Now, I'm back in the same board. Grow up! If you are pissed, let's act like children. Solves a lot!

Slap, I'll address you as you seem to be more level headed at this point in time. The first thing in the plan would have to be enforcement. The EPO's need to be out there and actually ticketing / impounding anyone who isn't where they are supposed to be. I know for a fact, that I and my club, have told the EPOs where to sit and catch people riding illegally. They simply state, we don't have time or the people to do that.

The second thing is the fines themselves need to be delt with. They are nothing. I have seen people post / talk about how they don't care if they get caught without registration or on illegal trails. The fine is like $25, WTF is $25 for a "good days ride?" (Obviously me not speaking here before you get all huffy.)

3rd, you need to make the registration money available to the ATV base. By this, I mean that it shouldn't go into a general fund or a small portion should go into that fund. The majority of the profits should go into taking care of the trails. (Not easy to do since the state is depending on that money in their well thought out budget! ::) )

4th, you need a trail maintenance program, not just clubs plus a few others doing the work. That worked in the past, doesn't work now. If you look at the other areas of the country with successful trail systems (for everyone), they all have trail maintenance programs. You can have the clubs / people still do some things to help out, but the state needs to be the responsible organization governing this.

Lastly, you need education. This is obviously not happening. The word is not getting out there as to "how the game is played". The dealers are not on board, the state is not on board, and the majority of the user base is not on board.

As for the maintenance that you talk about. I have personally put in water bars to deflect the water on slopes off the trail to try and keep the trails from being rutted and washed away. On the "output" of the water bar, we put stone to dispers the water in order to minimize environmental inpacts. Bridges, we put them in too. Last season, I helped put a 30 - 40 foot bridge in place over a swampy mud pit. We brushed in all of the "go arounds" on the trail.

Hope that helps ya slap. Not everyone is stupid, fat, lazy, etc. Some of us know what we are talking about.

As for some of you others, you are acting like a bunch of self righteous little girls. If you want to make progess, you need to work with the ATVers in order to get them to be responsible. Throwing stones is only gonna make things worse. I'm not saying that you need to agree with, promote ATVs, or even like ATVs. But if you are so concerned with the environment, then the right steps would be to work with instead of just bitching!

[Goldstar78i]

Well I am truly glad that there are ATVers who respect other peoples property, and respect the trails that they ride. The only problem is that kind of ATV user doesn't ride on the trails here. If I ever came upon ATVers working to make these trails better, it could change my opinion of them on the spot.

[ATV_User]

That's another problem. Most of the discussion on this thread is not related to Western Mass, and that is the only place I can speak for. Like I have said before, call the cops if ANYONE is not where they should be, I know I would.

[Loco]

ATV-User: You make some valid points about policing being necessary. The problem is, this won't happen with the way the state has staffed the DEP/DEM. The only way they are going to catch illegal ATV use is if the trail leads right into their back yard. You are asking the piddly enforcment leg of these groups to police a much larger group of individuals. Not going to happen. Not unless we institute socialist gov't and up their budgets.

Why don't we try a novel idea which works for all parties involved, self policing. If you have ATV folks who are concerned with trail damage (clubs, etc...) why don't you arrange some sort of "policing days" where a group of you camp out in the hot spots and stop your own kind to explain to them the damage they are doing. I mean, they are all rational people aren't they. ;) I'm sure if a club proposed this to the DEP/DEM they would be more than willing to help out by supplying some manpower and the ability to levy tickets.

Trail work days is another good idea. My guess though is that this wouldn't appeal to most of the ATV crowd because to create a sustainable trail system for ATVs you would end up working more than riding! That could drastically cut into beer time.

[MTBME]

"I know for a fact, that I and my club, have told the EPOs where to sit and catch people riding illegally. They simply state, we don't have time or the people to do that."

This is the heart and soul of the problem. We can point fingers back and forth all day, but it will always come back to this. Most people by nature will try to get away with as much as they can. Someone needs to reign them in. Is that suppose to be our job? Until enough noise is made at the state level, nothing will change. Nothing.

[TrailBate]

As for some of you others, you are acting like a bunch of self righteous little girls. If you want to make progess, you need to work with the ATVers in order to get them to be responsible. Throwing stones is only gonna make things worse. I'm not saying that you need to agree with, promote ATVs, or even like ATVs. But if you are so concerned with the environment, then the right steps would be to work with instead of just bitching!


Why should we have to work WITH a group that is loud, polluting, and destructive? YOU need to get your guys to start acting responsibly. Until that happens, you will just have to deal with the whining little girls. The general consensus is that you guys don't belong in parks. It's up to YOU to change that opinion, not us. Don't make US responsible for making YOU more accepted. Do it yourself.
A lot of people go into state parks to enjoy quiet, undamaged nature. You can't do that with ATV's and ATV "trails" around. Just yesterday, I got within 20 feet of a doe before she even noticed I was there.

[slapheadmofo]

Trail work days is another good idea. My guess though is that this wouldn't appeal to most of the ATV crowd because to create a sustainable trail system for ATVs you would end up working more than riding! That could drastically cut into beer time.



Actually I find that trail work and beer time are in no way mutually exclusive. ;D

[ATV_User]

As for some of you others, you are acting like a bunch of self righteous little girls. If you want to make progess, you need to work with the ATVers in order to get them to be responsible. Throwing stones is only gonna make things worse. I'm not saying that you need to agree with, promote ATVs, or even like ATVs. But if you are so concerned with the environment, then the right steps would be to work with instead of just bitching!


Why should we have to work WITH a group that is loud, polluting, and destructive? YOU need to get your guys to start acting responsibly. Until that happens, you will just have to deal with the whining little girls. The general consensus is that you guys don't belong in parks. It's up to YOU to change that opinion, not us. Don't make US responsible for making YOU more accepted. Do it yourself.
A lot of people go into state parks to enjoy quiet, undamaged nature. You can't do that with ATV's and ATV "trails" around. Just yesterday, I got within 20 feet of a doe before she even noticed I was there.


Why should you? That's the only way to get things done! Am I asking you to work with the *******s that are irresponsible . . . of course not. You're total attitude of they are not good, so screw them attitude will do nothing but fuel the fire, no put it out.

[ATV_User]

Self policing? Of course this happens, but we have no authority, no way to inflict fines, or anything. You're right, most people will listen, but the same people you are bitching about, we are bitching about too. The only solution to that is to get some body with authority into the parks more often, increase the fines, and start nailing people.

I brought it up at one of the Trails Council's meetings that if you put an EPO at the spots we specifically told them about, maybe once a week, you would gain the reputation of policing the area and being somewhat of a hard ass. The reputation itself is a big deturant. The answer was, "oh, well, we'll check into it"

[TrailBate]

As for some of you others, you are acting like a bunch of self righteous little girls. If you want to make progess, you need to work with the ATVers in order to get them to be responsible. Throwing stones is only gonna make things worse. I'm not saying that you need to agree with, promote ATVs, or even like ATVs. But if you are so concerned with the environment, then the right steps would be to work with instead of just bitching!


Why should we have to work WITH a group that is loud, polluting, and destructive? YOU need to get your guys to start acting responsibly. Until that happens, you will just have to deal with the whining little girls. The general consensus is that you guys don't belong in parks. It's up to YOU to change that opinion, not us. Don't make US responsible for making YOU more accepted. Do it yourself.
A lot of people go into state parks to enjoy quiet, undamaged nature. You can't do that with ATV's and ATV "trails" around. Just yesterday, I got within 20 feet of a doe before she even noticed I was there.


Why should you? That's the only way to get things done! Am I asking you to work with the *******s that are irresponsible . . . of course not. You're total attitude of they are not good, so screw them attitude will do nothing but fuel the fire, no put it out.


This is not MY attitude. You need to stop blaming us for your PR problems, and start blaming yourselves. Instead of coming on here trying to convince us that the thousands of recklass jerks are the minority, maybe you should be posting on as many ATV message boards as you can instead. Complaining to us is not going to eliminate destructive ATVers. THEY are your problem. YOUR problem.

[TrailBate]

btw, where are these vid's and pic's you were going to post about ATV trail maintenance?

This is a bad road of argument to go down. One might ask why we dont practice what we preach, say on any thursday evening in the fells. It is not fair to ask the ATV club to do what we would never do ourselves.





Why don't we try a novel idea which works for all parties involved, self policing. If you have MOUNTIAN BIKE FOLKS who are concerned with trail damage (clubs, etc...) why don't you arrange some sort of "policing days" where a group of you camp out in the hot spots and stop your own kind to explain to them the damage they are doing. I mean, they are all rational people aren't they. ;) I'm sure if a club proposed this to the DEP/DEM they would be more than willing to help out by supplying some manpower and the ability to levy tickets.



ATV_User,

You are a brave soul. I sympathise with your plight. It is difficult to get people to relize they are hurting themselves and their sport by ignoring the existing rules. You have taken on a difficult task. You get bashed by people inside and outside your orginization. There are many similarities to our issues here but some will always ignore them.

I wish you success in educating people, hopfully the result will be a greater sence of responsibility and acceptance of the damage scofflaws do to your sports reputation. I'm sure it makes you an enemy amonst some of your own. I can empathize in that.

bill

[ATV_User]

btw, where are these vid's and pic's you were going to post about ATV trail maintenance?


If you were as smart as you claim to be, you'd know that the parks are not open yet! The first work party for us is on the 22nd. of May.

As for complainning, all I see here is bashing. I came here to show all you that there are responsible people out there. Who says that I am not on the pther boards? Have I complained on this board? Look back through my posts.

[ATV_User]

This is a bad road of argument to go down. One might ask why we dont practice what we preach, say on any thursday evening in the fells. It is not fair to ask the ATV club to do what we would never do ourselves.





Why don't we try a novel idea which works for all parties involved, self policing. If you have MOUNTIAN BIKE FOLKS who are concerned with trail damage (clubs, etc...) why don't you arrange some sort of "policing days" where a group of you camp out in the hot spots and stop your own kind to explain to them the damage they are doing. I mean, they are all rational people aren't they. ;) I'm sure if a club proposed this to the DEP/DEM they would be more than willing to help out by supplying some manpower and the ability to levy tickets.



ATV_User,

You are a brave soul. I sympathise with your plight. It is difficult to get people to relize they are hurting themselves and their sport by ignoring the existing rules. You have taken on a difficult task. You get bashed by people inside and outside your orginization. There are many similarities to our issues here but some will always ignore them.

I wish you success in educating people, hopfully the result will be a greater sence of responsibility and acceptance of the damage scofflaws do to your sports reputation. I'm sure it makes you an enemy amonst some of your own. I can empathize in that.

bill


I appreciate your open mindedness. That is all I ask for.

[TrailBate]

As for the "ATV Bad Apples", there is nothing we can do about them. Numberous time I have stopped people comming out of non-sanctioned trails and tried to talk to them. So listed, most do not.


THIS is your problem. I don't understand this attitude that you're blaming everyone else, including us "close minded, whiny little girls" for your problem.



If you were as smart as you claim to be, you'd know that the parks are not open yet!

you don't have any pics of previous trail maintanence?[/quote]

[ATV_User]

You generalize, and that is why I am pissy. My problem? No, it is everyone's problem, for the same reason that you don't like ATVs . . . they shouldn't be there!

As for pics of trail maintenance, if you were a laborer, would you cary a picture to work? When we are on the trails doing maintenance, we cary shovels, rakes, loppers, chainsaws (for blow downs, not making trails), etc. Guess until now, I never figured I should cary a camera. You can bet that there will be pictures this time, if for nothing else, to prove that there are people out there that care what the trails look like and how they are maintained.

I am sorry for getting pissy, but there is only so much BS / generalizations that a person can read before it gets to them.

[TrailBate]

You generalize, and that is why I am pissy. My problem? No, it is everyone's problem, for the same reason that you don't like ATVs . . . they shouldn't be there!

As for pics of trail maintenance, if you were a laborer, would you cary a picture to work? When we are on the trails doing maintenance, we cary shovels, rakes, loppers, chainsaws (for blow downs, not making trails), etc. Guess until now, I never figured I should cary a camera. You can bet that there will be pictures this time, if for nothing else, to prove that there are people out there that care what the trails look like and how they are maintained.

I am sorry for getting pissy, but there is only so much BS / generalizations that a person can read before it gets to them.


Guys here post maintanence pictures all the time. If they can figure out how to carry cameras, I'm sure you can figure it out too.
And we can't help but get pissy when ATVs ruin our trails, then come on here and try to convince us to give them more trails and parks.

[felixatvtc]

As for complainning, all I see here is bashing. I came here to show all you that there are responsible people out there. Who says that I am not on the pther boards? Have I complained on this board? Look back through my posts.


I guess i still don't see the point of you posting here. As far as i can tell you haven't aided your arguement at all in the 18+ pages. I also don't see what's your point of saying you posted to show there are responsible people out there. Yeah, so what, sometimes a horney teenager ***** a pumpkin too, what do i care? I'd like to think that we all know there are responsible owners and personally power to them, but they are dwarfed in perspective behind the obvious miss-users.

The other thing i've noticed is you say something along the lines of:

"As for some of you others, you are acting like a bunch of self righteous little girls. If you want to make progess, you need to work with the ATVers in order to get them to be responsible. Throwing stones is only gonna make things worse. I'm not saying that you need to agree with, promote ATVs, or even like ATVs. But if you are so concerned with the environment, then the right steps would be to work with instead of just bitching!"

Aren't you contradicting yourself in that paragraph alone? Throwing stones is only going to make things worse, BUT you start off the paragraph with calling NEMBA members a "bunch of self righteous little girls" ::)

Maybe you should be taking your own advice by "taking the right steps" rather then coming onto OUR forum "just bitching." Also, IMO, by "bitching" amongst ourselves and on A BIKING BOARD i think it motivates other bikers to realize that this is a seroius topic and they should "take the right steps" by becoming more involved.

That's all i really wanted to add

[C.P.]

Someone mentioned Self Policing:::

The term "policing" might be the wrong term, maybe "patrolling" was what intended. BTW - NEMBA has been at it with the New England Mtb Patrol for Years.

http://www.nemba.org/trailprotection/bikepatrols.html

In parks like Lynn, The Fells & Great Brook Farm, (albeit periodically) the New England Mtn Bike Patrol has volunteers out educating and assiting trail users.

Also, at the Blue Hills, NEMBA sponsors Trailwatch, which is another MTB trail patrol, specifically aimed at educating trail users about responsible Mtn Biking and park policies.

[Big Game]

Yeah, so what, sometimes a horney teenager ***** a pumpkin too, what do i care?




Nice! My coffee just went up my nose.

Ok, Im lying. It was bourbon. I mean tequila. Alright, Zima.


Ok, "flame" baiting response:

These ATV'rs are like plantation owners trying to justify slavery. They can't even swallow their own arguments. So they just yell them louder. Maybe they'll be able to convince themselves they aren't selfish while they're trying to convince us.

Ok, "non-flame" baiting response:

I don't think an ATV advocacy group is going to have too much success unless it can give the appearance that it is doing something constructive about illegal and inappropriate ATV use.

Ok, "flamer" baiting response:

Oh you brutes. Stop it with your nasty machines. My pet schnitzer, Steven, gets soo upset by your loud motors. Why don't you boys pedal bicycles instead? Then you can wear spandex and shave your sexy leggs smooth. Mmm. Steven loves seeing young men sweaty and half-naked in spandex. And don't wear that baggy nonesense. All those droopy shorts and drab colors are sooo dismal. Show off your gorgeous figure! Put on some cheerful florescent colors and super-tight tights and don't be such a stranger! Ride by any time. Toodles. Randi.

[BG]

Hot Damn, now this is ENTERTAIMENT!! ;D ;D

I guess I still don't see the point of you posting here.

Actually, no-throttle started this by posting on their site.


ATV_USER - don't bother. You are debating with a fanatical bunch. You make several very good points. MTB can ride trails from one end of the state to the other. That is great, and I have no problem with this. ATV's have a tiny portion in Western Mass only, a fraction compared to the MTB. The illegal riding is a result of no where to ride, not no where to ride because of illegal riding. I am not condoning illegal riding, and the fact is illegal riding is not helping the ATVs causes. Trialbate is smart enough to understand the situation, just chooses not to admit it.

[TrailBate]

I guess I still don't see the point of you posting here.

Actually, no-throttle started this by posting on their site.


ATV_USER - don't bother. You are debating with a fanatical bunch. You make several very good points. MTB can ride trails from one end of the state to the other. That is great, and I have no problem with this. ATV's have a tiny portion in Western Mass only, a fraction compared to the MTB. The illegal riding is a result of no where to ride, not no where to ride because of illegal riding. I am not condoning illegal riding, and the fact is illegal riding is not helping the ATVs causes. Trialbate is smart enough to understand the situation, just chooses not to admit it.



what do you want me to do? When I see illegal riding, do really expect ANYONE to think, "hmm, I guess we should give these guys more legal trails"

The fact is I hate ATV's, and don't think they belong on any park system. period. they are a motor vehicle. a loud destructive one, and they are completely incompatible with what parks were designed for.

ever try one? The question was asked if atv'rs ever tried a mtn bike - well have you ever rode a atv?

[TrailBate]

yep, when I was about 13 I used to ride the 3-wheelers. Mostly in sandpits. The kid I use to ride with knew where the illegal places were, but knew when to ride them so you wouldn't get caught.

[Big Game]

ATV_USER - don't bother. You are debating with a fanatical bunch.



Yes. You are correct. We are so fanatical. We have been exposed. We want people to use the trails and woods responsibly. We tried to trick you but you were too smart. We want people to follow the law. We thought we were good but we are bad. We want people to respect other's rights to enjoy public land. We want people to get out in the woods and enjoys nature. But now we have been exposed as the demogues we are. Darn it all. We were so close to having our extreme idealogy of balancing reasonable use with prudent ecology.

Ok - so at some point you may have enjoyed it. A 4-wheeler is a different game, but similar. It's not the atv, it's the yahoo using it. Just like guns don't kill people, people kill people. I dislike the a-holes messing it up for the responsible riders just as much as you dislike them being on the mtn bike trials. Sharing the same trail doesn’t not make any sense; both groups want a different product. They should be separate. ATV trails do not need to be 20' wide to be enjoyable. If properly cared for, they don't get to be that big. And not for nothing, all the trails I've been on, none of them are that big.

I do ride the legal trails in the state parks, and am lucky enough to have friends that own land I can use. I don't ride biking trails, or any other high profile or high impact areas. Most of the places are sand pits. The places I ride you can not notice any significant impact from my riding. And I have been riding there for years. Too bad all riders are not like this. Hats off to the folks who are. Those that aren't are the problem.

[Jisch]

I have ridden ATVs a couple of times (my brother sells them). Its a lot of fun, but I would never buy one, too many hassles.

John

[slapheadmofo]

When I used to ride dirt bikes I rode with a bunch of guys that had quads and I jumped on them on a regular basis, mostly in and around sand pits (which I think is one of the few places that ATV's are in their element). Compared to my bikes, I found them pretty boring. Seems like the limited fun factor was directly proportional to how much you were sliding and spinning the rear wheels. This was borne out by watching all the guys that had them ride... the more you were ripping the place up, the better time you were having. That's what the vast majority of riders want to do with them, and that's why they have no business being unleashed on the state's trail systems.

I also think the registration fees currently being collected should be set aside and used strictly for enforcement and we should start confiscating these things from repeat offenders. Like I've said before, I feel somewhat bad for the handful of riders who want to be responsible, you all knew (or should have known) when you shelled out the $$ for it that there was practically nowhere to use it. Thinking everyone else should now have to accomodate you because you made a poor purchase doesn't fly.

[Slider]

When I was younger, dirt bikes - motorcycles that is - seemed a lot more fun, to me, than ATVs. They went more places, faster, and required more athleticism, and didn't need a winch to get them out of trouble. Then I realized that I was getting hurt a lot, spending a lot, and having more hassles as I looked for places to ride.

I used to ice race my Hercules GS 175. Studded up the tires and had a blast on the lakes. I used to practice on a local pond, but some skaters pointed out that I was screwing up their spot, tearing up the ice where they played hockey. I realized immediately that they were right, and never rode there again.

I think the ATV thing is for people who prefer it only slightly to their couch. The scenery moves, but you don't have to work as hard as when on a moto or a bike. That sets up the "who gives a ****" attitude about the trails. Just twist that throttle more, and screw the other users. **** 'em. It is a couch potato attitude at heart.

That means that getting through to them about responsible behavior is a losing battle. I think they'll NEVER reign in the irresponsible riders, and can only hope to slow the path toward prohibition.

Baiting them here probably doesn't help much. Let them hang themselves.

Slider

[tacrac]

Hello
New to posting here but by no means new to NEMBA. I have been watching/reading this topic and it has hit a nerve with me. I have spent a lot of time on trail maint. and trail building the last few years and I would not like to see these trails destroyed by ATVs either but I do believe people have a right to public land as long as they build/maintain their own trails.
One of the prior posts mentioned that the ATVers seem to throw dirt around to have a good time, maybe some do I don't really care but if the tire tread that they use could somehow be regulated to get rid of the huge lugs that throw dirt to a tread more like a trials motorcycle tire the damage in the woods would, in my opinion , be considerably less.
How could we get the parks or State to regulate this ? Does anyone have any ideas ?
thanks
Ron

[Kilroy]

Wow just happened upon this fiasco ..I have to say I use to have sympathy for ATV'rs ..I was going to feel bad as they get prevented more and more from using trails legally.

Now I will take great joy in snapping pictures ...and doing what I can to log ATV use that destroys trails.

One simple thing you guys could have done and you still havent...not unless I missed it.

ATV'rs you listening? YOU SHOULD SAY THE ACTIONS ON THE VIDEO ARE WRONG, WANTON DESTRUCTION OF TRAILS IS WRONG, WE WILL DO WHAT WE CAN TO PREVENT IT.

Not we should work together to share...I wasnt born yesterday. I dont want to share something if when I get it back it is of no use to me ...ever.

You guys are your own worst enemy ..we dont have to do anything to get you restricted from our trails, but your attitude here has convinced me I should.

Great work!!

[Jisch]

if the tire tread that they use could somehow be regulated to get rid of the huge lugs that throw dirt to a tread more like a trials motorcycle tire the damage in the woods would, in my opinion , be considerably less.



The tire tread is only one problem, having a solid axle in the back is another. I'm no ATV expert, but I believe most 2wd Quads have a solid rear axle meaning one tire must spin during a turn.

John

[Ozzy]

yawn yawn yawn.

No, you guys do NOT make singletracks. If you could, that would be some really crazy stunt riding.


You're right, but the issue is that this thread is based upon you folks being upset by a video of atv's on what is _CLEARLY NOT_ a single track trail

Yes, that video was used as an example as to why you guys should not get any more trails because of the extreme damage you do. Keep your rutted muddy roads, leave the singletrack to the rest of us. ATV's do not make TRAILS, they make rutted, gutted, muddy, ROADS.


So it's your assertion that said video is showing atv's on what was formerly a single track trail... I think it's obvious that is NOT the case... that in fact this trail in the footage we see was always atv, MX, and logging roads.


Do we go after anyone besides people?! Duh! Yeah, we go after elephants too!

???


We want to ban ATVers because by nature, EVERY ATV causes damage. Those that decide to do it on trails where you are offlimits, are NOT among the minority. There are thousands of you.


First of all, humanity by nature causes damage... Making single track trails causes damage, as does making atv trails... Our path may be twice as wide, maybe even 3 times as wide, your's has mud, and ours has more, perhaps largely because atv's can go where mountain bikes can't... We can make a trail through terrian that you could not, so of course ours is more treacherous... You certianly would not make a single track trail through a 20 foot long 8 inch deep hole filled with standing water now would you... Instead you would reroute around to drier ground, where it is more usable to you... Whereas with an atv, its just as usable standing water or not, so why bother going around.
This is how I _KNOW_ these trails in the video were NEVER intended for Mt.Bk. use... By the same rights I have seen MANY MANY atv trails that remain in STELLAR condition over 20+ years, it just happens there was no water there to begin with.
Try to be at least reasonable here... I saw let the single track stay single track, and atv stay atv... If an atv group can get the go ahead to make a new atv trail, fine, its theirs, and like-wise for Mt. Bkers.

[EVIL BOTA]

AH The old who has a right to the forest.

The walkers hate the mtn bikers,the Hikers hate the mx's ,the horse back riders hate the paintballers,the mountain bikers hate the hunters. everyone hates the atver's!
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!

[Big Game]

Few trails ever were ATV trails. ATV's are recent invention (whoever invested ATV's should feel guilty...guiltier than Dow Chemical Co. for making the drugs that made all the flipper babies) ATV's have ruined trials to make them ATV trails. You want to stick to logging roads? Fine, stick to logging roads.

I remember my first time on a ATV. It was in a sandpit. A fat kid from my 7th grade class had one. I was riding my buddy's CR80 --- I loved that little Honda. I tried out the fat kid's quad, but all the quad was much better at was kicking up dust. I couldn't see much of the attraction. It was slow through the whips and cumbersome all around.

When I got my KDX, I'd be riding with my buddies and some loser on a quad would always show up and want to ride with us. They totally suck..always slowing us down...always in the way...always unable to make it up something. Wasting time trying to get them unstuck. I still can't understand why ATV users value laziness over the nimble effeciency of a dirtbike. It's been 10 years since i've owned a dirtbike so I wonder, is it still that way? Is it only the non-athletic fat kids who ride quads?

Guess I'm just another fanatic who would like to see more public access for dirtbikes (probably time to go to 4-stroke only) and zero for ATV's.

Oh the only fat non-athletic people rides quads sterotype. Similar to all mountain bikers are pickle puffers.

Most quads are now 4-stroke.

Dirt bikes actually rutt up the trails more than quads. Quads don't create the berms and whoops the way dirt bikes do.

[slapheadmofo]

... We can make a trail through terrian that you could not, so of course ours is more treacherous... You certianly would not make a single track trail through a 20 foot long 8 inch deep hole filled with standing water now would you... Instead you would reroute around to drier ground, where it is more usable to you... Whereas with an atv, its just as usable standing water or not, so why bother going around.
This is how I _KNOW_ these trails in the video were NEVER intended for Mt.Bk. use... By the same rights I have seen MANY MANY atv trails that remain in STELLAR condition over 20+ years, it just happens there was no water there to begin with.
Try to be at least reasonable here... I saw let the single track stay single track, and atv stay atv... If an atv group can get the go ahead to make a new atv trail, fine, its theirs, and like-wise for Mt. Bkers.


Ripping deep trenches through a wetland area isn't 'treacherous', its 'vandalous'. That's why you should build a bridge, or route the trail correctly in the first place. Besides for every guy that goes thru, a couple of your other guys go around and blow the whole area out into a muddy wasteland anyway, correct?

Who built the trails in the video ORIGINALLY? Were they marked out and cleared by ATVers? I doubt it. In that case, they were never intended for quad use either, but you went ahead and took over them and ruined them for everyone else anyway. Please try to give us a specific example of a trail built by ATVers 20+ years ago that's in great shape today in your mythical land of 'no water'.

I'll also argue that except in the case of sand pits and deep mud (where no one should build a trail anyway) mountain bikes can handle a lot rougher terrain than quads. Quickest way to see a new trail braid develop is drop a 10" log across a doubletrack. ****, you guys are running big enough tires and suspension to get over a little stick aren't you? And once you've torn up a trail enough so it actually does get rough with rocks and such, you start widening it up because now it's too tough for you. I love when I get an opportunity to crank past quads on a pedal bike as they pick their way through rock gardens and try to spot an easier line through the woods beside the trail so they can sit down and get back to only exercising their thumbs.

In the end though, I agree with you completely - let the legal ATV trails stay that, leave the rest of the existing trails off limits to them (and enforce this strictly, using the funds collected for ATV registration) and let you guys try to figure out how to talk land managers into letting you build and maintain seperate and distinct trail systems that don't ruin the experience for the rest of us. Now we're getting somewhere!

Meanwhile, we added another mile or so of new singletrack yesterday in Wendell SF, and there are more guys over there extending it today. Luckily it's got some rocks and logs on it, so it would be too challenging for an ATV.

[biffster]

Dirt bikes actually rutt up the trails more than quads. Quads don't create the berms and whoops the way dirt bikes do.

You have to be kidding me. Look at any power line or trail where quads have been and you'll see huge berms.

I have a MX bike. Have for years. I ride at legal tracks. I obey the law and do not ride on trails I don't not own or have permission to ride on. I have also ridden a quad a few times. Much easier to ride. I guess that's the lure.

Most dirt bikers hate ATV's. They think they're totally gay. There's an ATV track next to the MX track I ride at and every day it is almost a ghostown. Want to know why?

Most ATV people are too damm cheap to pay money to ride somewhere. They would rather tresspass than to pay $30 to ride. Yes $30! Spend $5-8k on a quad and can't spend $30 a day to ride it????

Most ATV people are too damm cheap to pay money to ride somewhere. They would rather tresspass than to pay $30 to ride. Yes $30! Spend $5-8k on a quad and can't spend $30 a day to ride it????

Over 20,000 quads in the state and you personally know most of them? Pretty impressive. That’s a pretty bold leap to generalize in that manor.

And again, most dirt bikers hating quads? That's a good one. I would have to guess if choosing between mtn bikers or ATVs, you guys would be on the losing end of the stick. Every single ATV item you complain about, dirt bike share. In fact, most times they are louder, pollute more (more dirt bikes are 2-stroke than quads, and have louder after market pipes), go faster, have easier access to ride trials illegally, etc. If there were no ATVs, your sights would be set on them.

There is a big difference between track and trail riding. Different style and usually different type of machines. You wouldn't take a Grizzly, King Quad, Sportsman, etc around a track. Same way you don't ride a Z-400, TRX450, YFZ 450 through rocky, muddy trails.

The crock about being lazy being the reason to ride a quad is just that - a crock. If they were lazy they would not be out there in the first place. People enjoy different activities. It's that simple. There is no right or wrong here. No lazy vs. motivated. Are people who ride jet-skis lazy because they are not swimming? It's the same thing just on the water. How about snowmobile riders? Are they too lazy to ski? It's the same thing. The thrill of the acceleration, the handling, sliding, jumping, etc.

I've seen the impact dirt bikes leave behind first hand. No, I'm not kidding. ATVs do leave an impact. Everyone or everything does. Including mtn bike. Dirt bikes however leave bigger ruts and berms. ATVs don't create the big berms in corners the way dirt bikes do.

[TrailBate]

You're right, but the issue is that this thread is based upon you folks being upset by a video of atv's on what is _CLEARLY NOT_ a single track trail

yeah, not anymore. Show me a singletrack trail that you guys ride on that is STILL singletrack. Doesn't exist, because you guys destroy them.




So it's your assertion that said video is showing atv's on what was formerly a single track trail... I think it's obvious that is NOT the case... that in fact this trail in the footage we see was always atv, MX, and logging roads.

no, it is my assertion that if you guys are given anymore "trails", THAT is what you'd do to them.


First of all, humanity by nature causes damage... Making single track trails causes damage, as does making atv trails... Our path may be twice as wide, maybe even 3 times as wide, your's has mud, and ours has more, perhaps largely because atv's can go where mountain bikes can't... We can make a trail through terrian that you could not, so of course ours is more treacherous... You certianly would not make a single track trail through a 20 foot long 8 inch deep hole filled with standing water now would you... Instead you would reroute around to drier ground, where it is more usable to you... Whereas with an atv, its just as usable standing water or not, so why bother going around.
This is how I _KNOW_ these trails in the video were NEVER intended for Mt.Bk. use... By the same rights I have seen MANY MANY atv trails that remain in STELLAR condition over 20+ years, it just happens there was no water there to begin with.
Try to be at least reasonable here... I saw let the single track stay single track, and atv stay atv... If an atv group can get the go ahead to make a new atv trail, fine, its theirs, and like-wise for Mt. Bkers.


yeah yeah, then let's let hummers onto all trails since they cause damage "just like everyone else". I love the "why bother going around" argument. I've seen you guys go around everything, including gates and "no motor vehicle" signs.
It's really simple. You guys are loud, desctructive, polluting vandals that ruin trails, and the peace and quiet most people try to enjoy.

[slapheadmofo]

Oh the only fat non-athletic people rides quads sterotype. Similar to all mountain bikers are pickle puffers.

Most quads are now 4-stroke.

Dirt bikes actually rutt up the trails more than quads. Quads don't create the berms and whoops the way dirt bikes do.




I like berms; spent a lot of time last summer building them on a little trail we have on private land. Just this weekend found where quad riders had recently cut thru some logs (just can't quite get over those little logs huh fellas?) and blown out a new entrance to the trail we've been working on for years. Now the berms I spent all that time working on are in danger of being trashed in a single trip by these jackasses. Luckily, they were also smart enough to rip a hole thru the woods (you can't call what they did 'making a trail' by any means) that leads right to their backyard. That way we can give them fair warning that we'll be putting in some anti-ATV measures along our trail and they'll need to find a different place to trash. ******** dinks.

If I give you pro-ATV guys an address and phone number, what are the chances you'd do a little self-policing and let these guys know that they're 100% in the wrong, maybe convince them to start riding legally?

Yeah, that's what I thought...

[ATV_User]

First off, I have no problem writing to or calling the @$$'$ that trashed your riding area. If the trail indeed goes right to their house, I would have called the cops and informed them that someone was trespassing, the trail goes to their house, and sent the cops over.

Secondly, there is something that amazes me with all you guys. You get something in your head and then turn blind to the world. Since coming on here, I have stated that I agree with you, no more land should be given to ATVs (something you obviously missed), I have stated that the current maintenance system doesn't work and needs to be changed. This implies that the ATV trails are not up to snuff and need work. (Another thing you guys have seemed to have missed.)

What you have here is a PRO ATV person, with a partially anti-ATV view. I agree and enjoy ATVs, but don't like what I see in the woods. These are the people that you could, for lack of a better phrase, give guidance to in order to help take care of the environment. That is, if you truelly care. Judging by what you have missed in some of these posts, I really ask myself if you care as much as you say you do, about the evnironment.

[Big Game]

Many mountainbikers I know have dirtbikes. I can't think of one who has a quad.

Dirtbikes certianly do not rut up the land as bad a quads do. Henry, you goal should be try to build your credibility. By stating something that is the converse of obvious observations, you really undermine your cause.

Yes, there are places dirtbikers shouldn't be. Yes there are places that MTBr's shouldn't be. Yes, there are places that hikers shouldn't be. But speaking of public land...there is little or no place for ATVs.

[huff'npuff]

ATV_User,

I don't think anyone has missed the gist of your posts. Most are just venting their frustrations about the bad element of ATV'ers.
No one's blind to the world; they're just upset with the jerks that could care less about anything other than their own "fun", albeit illegal and destructive.You admitted that ATV maintenance isn't "up to snuff",and no one here will argue that point.
As far as members not truly caring..... pay attention to all the other threads that list maintenance in every section where NEMBA is present.
NEMBA DOES CARE.

[EVIL BOTA]

WE shouldn't be bashing any other recreational group. For we have been bashed our selves. Each forest area, zone, park or what have you, should set up meetings with all the different
Recreational groups and come up with plans for trails and maintenance. But that would be intelligent.

If I give you pro-ATV guys an address and phone number, what are the chances you'd do a little self-policing and let these guys know that they're 100% in the wrong, maybe convince them to start riding legally?

If it is public land, or my own land, you bet I would. Private land belonging to someone else, I have no jurisdiction, or right to do so. Neither do you unless you are an agent of the property owner. I HIGHLY recommended calling the police - actually, have the property owner call.

Not doubting there are yahoos out there. The people who care enough to be discussing these issues on your forum are not the idiots doing the damage you speak of.

[Ozzy]

No, you guys do NOT make singletracks. If you could, that would be some really crazy stunt riding.

I never said we made all the trails, We made some, MX bikes made a lot, and a lot are old logging trails, which shouldn't interest you anyways as they are too wide for your liking!.. And btw that video was clearly not of a single track trail, which is what this entire thread is about... You're all complaining about atv's on atv trails.


Yes, that video was used as an example as to why you guys should not get any more trails because of the extreme damage you do. Keep your rutted muddy roads, leave the singletrack to the rest of us. ATV's do not make TRAILS, they make rutted, gutted, muddy, ROADS.


Consider the definition of road... An open way for people, vehicles, and animals, especially one outside an urban district.
Humm, guess you're right we do make roads, how dare us... and how dare the deer do the same!!! Lets ban them!!!

Do we go after anyone besides people?! Duh! Yeah, we go after elephants too!

This lends towards your credibility???



We want to ban ATVers because by nature, EVERY ATV causes damage.

So doesn't every mountain bike.


Those that decide to do it on trails where you are offlimits, are NOT among the minority.

Really... Prove it... Let's see the video tape of atv's on single track trails... that you yourself already implied are to narrow to have been created by atv's. Well if they are too narrow, one would have to conclude that an atv cannot even fit on them... So... Again, lets see the video, because right now all's we have is video of atv on what are clearly not single track trails... Back up your claims of don't make any at all lest it be viewed by the more intelligent population as pure sensationalism.



There are thousands of you.

Well, there are billions of Chinese, have you any video of them invading your trails, lol...

[EVIL BOTA]

Do you atver's have your own web site. Lets take this post over there. Its a wasted argument,because everyone wants to argue and no one wants to solve the problems. Do atvs cause damage yes.Do atvs go on trails they shouldn't,yes, But are all atvers' guilty of this ,NO.Maybe 10% are to blame. So far the topic here hasn't solved any of that.

[biffster]

Been there....done that.

No reasoning with ATV people.

[Big Game]

Here's a great post...

http://www.atvnews.com/forum.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/15312615.cfm
...maybe someone who could be converted?

Some ATV'rs talk about great places to ride in Southern Mass/RI:

http://forums.atvconnection.com/messageview.cfm/catid/27/threadid/412578/STARTPAGE/1.cfm


Some ATV'rs talk about great places to ride in CT:

http://forums.atvconnection.com/messageview.cfm/catid/27/threadid/442319.cfm

Another great story..don't think an mtb'r has doen 10 million dollars of damage in a spell.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1603597,00.html

Here's a great quote from an ATV rider ---

"Thanks dude.. I'll deff. look into that.. how far away is meriden from woodstock anyway? we should ride sometime.. I know some good places up here... all illegal but noone bothers you.."

See the rest at:
http://forums.atvconnection.com/messageview.cfm/catid/27/threadid/445266.cfm

Another insightful comments

" I have been trying to find a descent place to ride either trails or pits here in Plymouth but can't find much. I get chased on Rt. 44 where I used to ride and it gets to be a pain getting chase all day instead of doing relaxing riding. Anyone have any places?"

I've read lots of other posts tonight...some riders seem reasonable...like advising others not to ride like an idiot and chew up the land...but it seems everyone at least condones riding illegal places...because they have no choice. Which I don't quite understand. They're all willing ot ride illegally as long as they don't get hassled. So the next time you see a quad riding illegally, make a point of mentioning ot them that they are riding illegally.

I also found out that Polaris is the "comfort-bike" of the ATV world. Classic.

[Ozzy]

Do you atver's have your own web site. Lets take this post over there. Its a wasted argument,because everyone wants to argue and no one wants to solve the problems. Do atvs cause damage yes.Do atvs go on trails they shouldn't,yes, But are all atvers' guilty of this ,NO.Maybe 10% are to blame. So far the topic here hasn't solved any of that.


We do have many of our own websites... On which one of your members found the video in the beginning of this thread, and on which he started posting... Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
However that said, you yourself seem to be rather reasonable... I would rather be proactive and try to work towards something better for all of us... I would rather roll back laws that force atv's into state forests which would significantly lower the concentraion of atv's in the state-forest... Don't get me wrong, I still believe we should have access to what we have now, but it would increase our riding options in places that wouldn't bother you guys, and would leave the stateforests open for further development of trails for you. Speaking of which does anyone know where to find atv riding laws for massachusetts, as I cannot find anywhere on the mass general law site that limits atv's to state forests? Anyways, it is unlikely that any laws will get rolled back, and with that in mind we all just need to co-exist as best we can.
It is fair to say if we take it one step further and work TOGETHER we _COULD_ find a way to make more Mt.Bk. and atv trails in the stateforests, and I am pretty sure that having more single track trails would make you guys pretty happy, and vice versa for us...Any suggestions?

[ATV_User]

Unfortunately, and I really mean unfortunately, not much is going to change until we can get the state to review and implement changes in their structure/reasoning. That is where I am concentrating. The clubs need help because they can't keep up.

One more thing that kinda bothered me as I re-read some of the posts. One of you specifically said they were going to implement "Anti-ATV measures". I hope this is not the case. I would never think of doing anything to hurt another human and would hope you guys would be civil enough not to either.

[nhiker]

...Any suggestions?


Yeah! ;D you guys sell those big noisey riggs and buy mountainbikes! 8)

Quote from ATV_User: "One more thing that kinda bothered me as I re-read some of the posts. One of you specifically said they were going to implement "Anti-ATV measures". I hope this is not the case. I would never think of doing anything to hurt another human and would hope you guys would be civil enough not to either. "

Yeah I would agree...Those are the kind of tactics that are never justifiable...except in the minds of extremists! This is a slippery slope which could go either way.

[hammerhead]

ATV_User, the 'anti-ATV' measures we build are trail obstacles - 1' logs, tightly spaced boulders or trees, rock walls, and etc. These things, with the accompanying brush piles to prevent sally lines, deter the access of the vehicles only. If you ATV riders wish to park the gas swilling, wheel spinning, noisemakers you are welcome to enjoy the trails we build.

[digger]

Links to MGL, CMR, and DCR policy
http://www.mass.gov/dcr/recreate/orv.htm
http://www.mass.gov/dem/regs/304012e.htm
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dle/323cmr30.pdf
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/266-121a.htm
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/gl-90b-toc.htm [sec. 20-35]

Atv_user, I agree that as far as ORV use on state land is concerned, some changes are needed at DCR if there is to be an acceptable way to manage motorized trail activity. What do you see as the "changes in their structure/reasoning" that are needed. Enforcement is certainly a problem and it is limited due to cost more than anything else. While I sympathize with the argument that ORV registration fees should be going toward enforcement costs, I'm not sure that these fees are in line with the level of enforcement that is really needed. Would ORV users be willing to pay additional fees to the state to allow for more/better enforcement, and for active management of ORV use on state land?

[C.P.]

Speaking of enforcement & registration fees - Anyone know how many Inland Environmental Police Officers actually serve the entire seven regions of the state(MA)? I bet we'd all be surprised to see how few actually do...

I've heard rumors of 2 per region, but dont know what the actual number is. I've also heard that ranger's at each of the DCR properties have no juristiction to issue violations. My understanding is that this is the problem at the local level for police in each town as well (when speaking of state land/vs town land). Anyone know more factual info regarding this?

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dle/inland.htm

[slapheadmofo]

ATV_User, the 'anti-ATV' measures we build are trail obstacles - 1' logs, tightly spaced boulders or trees, rock walls, and etc. These things, with the accompanying brush piles to prevent sally lines, deter the access of the vehicles only. If you ATV riders wish to park the gas swilling, wheel spinning, noisemakers you are welcome to enjoy the trails we build.



Exactly. Lots of logs, brush, boulders etc. Things that bikes can ride over or thru but ATVs can't. Of course, from years of experience, no matter how much you try to block them they just blast another hole thru the woods to access and trash the trail, but if you're lucky you can keep it nice for a little while longer before it's destroyed.

As for working together, there's no benefit to bikers to be associated with ATVs. We already are making more legal singletrack biking trails in the forests. I don't understand how teaming up with the pariahs of the woods would help us out at all. You guys aren't interested in building singletrack, and you'd trash the existing doubletrack and roads so they'd end up unusable to anyone but yourselves. I don't see what's in it for us.

[ATV_User]

That's good to hear about you "tactics" for keeping A-holes out. I outlined 4 or 5 things that needed to be changed in general a couple of pages before, enforcement, education, maintenance, funds, etc..

I have never said you guys should team up with us. I would not expect you to. Seems like your system is working. I would not expect you to work for opening trails up to ATVs. What I would expect is working together on environmental issues. Getting input on things needing to change, methodologies, areas of concern, things like that. And constructively, not just throwing stones and pointing fingers.

I thought I saw it a couple of pages back, but someone posted you guys were once in our predicament, with not much riding space. Look at where you are today. With the proper plan in place, the evironmnent and trails could be kept nice and useable for everyone. Your also right that there needs to be seperate trails as well and seperate maintenance, etc. This is what I am working towards, hopefully in a civilized manner.

[benb]

You're still operating under the impression that there is a sustainable solution for ATVs on public land.

I think most of us don't feel it is even possible for ATVs to function in a natural environment. The only trails they can negotiate are wide trails that have been sanitized & engineered for them. The kind of wide sandy/gravelly trails the state often makes, which are super easy to destroy. If the trail is to narrow or has trees, rocks, etc.. the ATVs have to go around, as they can't be picked up and carried over. ATVs are just not compatible with the more "natural" trails that mountain bikers and hikers enjoy without destroying them.

ATVs and mountain bikes also appear to have different recreation/maintenance requirements. It may take 10 man-hours of maintenance for every 1 man-hour of ATV use to sustain a trail, whereas bikes might be more like 1 man-hour of maintenance for every 10 or even 100 man-hours of use. ATVs just require lots of cleanup to keep the trails repaired, you guys have to show you can do that. It is obvious right now that the # of ATV riders who want to ride far exceeds the # who are willing to perform trail maintenance. The same is true with mountain bikes, it's just that the difference in damage makes it a far tougher problem with ATVs. In one afternoon of work I can probably repair all the MTB damage I create in the entire year. You can't do that with an ATV unless you're riding an extremely well planned/engineered trail and have power equipment, etc.. to do the repairs.

Personally I think the future of ATVs is on private land that is run by a company and maintained. Much like a road course for cars/motorcycles or a drag strip. It just seems like the only way the damage can be repaired... a dedicated staff that works every week to repair the damage and keep the trails usable. There will be responsible users who use these facilities, and lots of outlaws who continue to play the "catch me if you can game".

[Ozzy]

Yeah! ;D you guys sell those big noisey riggs and buy mountainbikes! 8)


You see, that's unreasonable, this is what I am talking about. You all have a my way or the highway attitude and are unwilling to move on it... If that's the case and you want all out _war_, I hate to tell you but you're gonna lose because the state has bigger and better things to worry about then some trail getting too wide or too muddy for you to ride on... Its deal with that or deal with drug dealers, illegal weapons, domestic violence, public education, fire protection etc... where do you really think you rank on the list... They can pass all the laws they want, it's simply unenforcable... So why not stop being ignorant and try working with us rather than against us???

[nhiker]

Yeah! ;D you guys sell those big noisey riggs and buy mountainbikes! 8)


You see, that's unreasonable, this is what I am talking about. You all have a my way or the highway attitude and are unwilling to move on it... If that's the case and you want all out _war_, I hate to tell you but you're gonna lose because the state has bigger and better things to worry about then some trail getting too wide or too muddy for you to ride on... Its deal with that or deal with drug dealers, illegal weapons, domestic violence, public education, fire protection etc... where do you really think you rank on the list... They can pass all the laws they want, it's simply unenforcable... So why not stop being ignorant and try working with us rather than against us???


Oh I get it your 13 years old...I didn't know I am sorry! That was a joke.....Sarcasm....I could care less about whether you ride or not but I think you will find you are the only one fighting a war here...So just chill!
K

[ATV_User]

I don't know what the future is for ATVs, but I know it is something different than what we have now. There definitely is a place for ATVs in the environment. It is working in other spots, but their states take an active role in the maintenance / policing / etc. They also see the other revenue aspects of ATV riding, and are willing to tap it making it easier for the other issues by having a pot of cash to deal with things.

[Woodsrat]

Having worked on these trail issues for many years, I have some comments and fresh info.

I have posted a summary of NETRA/BTC trail maintenance work in the MA state forests at http://www.netra.org/news/currentevents.htm
If you scroll down, there is also a report I wrote on our use of TEA-21 grants on ORV/multi-use trails in the MA state forests. I have been the Secretary of the BTC since its inception in 1996. If anyone has any specific questions on this trail work, I hold all the documentation and info on exactly what work was done on what trail and by whom for every one of the 20,191 documented hours of trail work.

The current BTC member organizations include NETRA, several local NETRA clubs (Pathfinders MC, Greylock TR, Hoosac Valley MC, Knox TR, Berkshire TR), WestMass ATV, and NEATV.

The BTC does not sanction or promote any rides or riding events, although most of its member organizations do.

The BTC has held contracts with the Commonwealth of MA to maintain about 200 miles of ORV/multi-use trails in five state forests in the Berkshires since 1996. These forests include: Beartown, Tolland, October Mt, Pittsfield, and Savoy. We meet with DCR officials at Region 5 DCR Headquarters on Rt 7 in Pittsfield on a monthly basis to discuss trail issues and work plans. Our next meeting is Wednesday May 4th, 7pm, and we want to hear from all trail users about trail conflicts and problems with trail conditions.

Some have asked an excellent question, if our current volunteer work is not keeping up with the need, what is the solution? We feel that we are pretty tapped out as far as the amount of volunteer work we can get to help maintain these trails. NETRA has been proposing a trail maintenance sticker program for several years, and currently has a bill in the MA Environment Committee, HB1289. This bill would require all ORVs that use state forest trails, or any other trails included in the program, to display a "Trails Maintenance Assessment" sticker. The funds from the sale of these TMA stickers would go towards trail maintenance, and some could also be spent on increased enforcement. The system is modelled off the successful VAST VT snowmobile program. Instead of a dedicated fund that can be raided, the funds would go to the issueing organization (NETRA), with oversight by the DCR and an accounting report provided to the DCR.

I have personally asked our new MA Director of Parks and Recreation to support this bill. Our NETRA MA lobbyist, John Bartley, is actively seeking legislative support, and I am asking NEMBA and NEMBA members for their support.

We have also been lobbying the DCR for ORV riding areas in central and eastern MA. We currently have a good program with sufficient mileage in western MA. But there is no legal riding area on state land for ATVs anywhere east of the Berkshires. There are three areas in eastern MA for trail bikes but not ATVs, Freetown and Georgetown-Rowley/Wrentham. This total lack of legal riding areas for ATVs east of the Berkshires is creating a situation which encourages illegal use, including the use of ATVs on MTB trails. Will legal riding areas completely eliminate illegal use? No. Will legal riding areas reduce illegal use and give those who promote or enforce responsible use a leg to stand on? Yes.

A more subjective comment:

Bicyclists who ride in glass houses should not throw stones.
NETRA, WestMass ATV, and NEATV have been working very hard to promote responsible ORV use and to maintain the trails, just as NEMBA and IMBA have for MTBing. There are irresponsible MTBers cutting illicit trails and creating playgrounds on public land who can cause MTBers as much embarassment as irresponsible ORVers do for ORVing. Based on my meetings with state trail coordinators/forest and park managers in both MA and CT, the issues of irresponsible MTB use and trail cutting are very much on their radar screen. MTBTom has done an excellent job of documenting his points by letting irresponsible ORVers (or ORVers who appear to be irresponsible) cut their own throats with their videos and comments. But the sword has two edges, and on the backswing, there are plenty of videos and reports of irresponsible MTBers who have pissed off other trail users and damaged or modified public property.

ORVers are the canaries in our coal mine. Keep in mind that some of the same people who created NEMBA, like Bill Boles and Bob Hicks, are some of the same people who created NETRA 35 years ago. One of these NETRA/NEMBA originators recently told me, "the mountain bikers think of themselves as green, but many of them don't realize that others don't." There are some powerful organizations out there that don't like much human activity in the woods, especially mechanized activity. These orgs have been most active shutting down MTB/ORV access to millions of acres of public land in the western U.S. At some point, they are going to take a closer look at the northeast. When the ORVers are gone, who do you think is going to be next in their sights?

One person commented that NETRA lost its ability to use state forest trails for events in RI due to trail damage caused by an ORV event. This is true. The last AMA National/NETRA Enduro in RI operated on wet, soft trails, and there was substantial trail damage. I know, because I rode the event and got stuck in some wicked ruts. The NETRA club which promoted the enduro, the Rhody Rovers, made some attempts to repair the damage after the event, but they did not do everything they needed to do. As several MTBers have mentioned good trail conditions after other NETRA events, this situation was not indicative of typical NETRA event trail use. The Rhody Rovers are now under new leadership, and have been working for several years to make amends and improve their relationship with the RI DEP.

Some people have implied that ATV riding is akin to lying on the couch. I have only ridden ATVs a little, but I can assure you that riding an ATV on a rocky trail at more than a snails pace is a highly athletic activity, using every muscle in the body, with particular emphasis on upper body strength and endurance, in an attempt to control a front end that is being deflected by every rock and bump. This statement is coming from an active NORBA Sport rider who also competes in all the USCF/CRCA road races in Central Park, has completed three multi-week on/off road bicycle tours of Central America (climbs up over 9000'), and has ridden over 100 NETRA enduros. We need to appreciate each others sports. And as outdoor enthusiasts, we should support responsible enjoyment of each others sports.

Mike Stone
VP, NETRA
Secretary, Berkshire Trails Council
VP, CT Trail Users
AMA Congressman, New England District
m.stone@ix.netcom.com

[ATV_User]

The only problem with your bill is that even if it gets passed, you stated that you would still need volunteers to do maintenance. I don't have a problem doing this, but the community as a whole might.

We are having trouble getting volunteers now. If ATVers have to pay, say $50 for the sticker specifically for maintenance, what makes you think that they are going to volunteer then?

I like the program, but I think the state needs to administer it, IMHO.

[TrailBate]

Why do you need a bill? Can't you just sell stickers on your own?

[huff'npuff]

Woodsrat, my hat's off to you. A very sane and sage post. I hope that your organization/s will have as much success as NEMBA has over time.
There will always be those "renegades" that feel they have a God-given right to venture into the forests and do as they please without answering to anyone,but a sensible bill passed by the govt. MAY make the more mature and respectable riders use only the legal trails.
I admit I'm one that isn't fond of seeing ATVs out there,but if they had their own trails I don't think I'd have a problem with co-existing with them.
There are good and bad in all aspects. We have our share of MTBers that think they can do anything they want, too - like skirting puddles(thus widening them),and riding on forbidden trails and posted land. It's sad that those dimwits in all of the organizations that use our land can't be taught to respect it more,but that's just the way it is.

I wish your organization great success in your endeavor,and hope that we all can share and enjoy the land some day.

[nhiker]

Woodsrat your comments on this board are welcome, well thought out and logical. I wish you and your Organization well. I also appreciate your comments of a critical nature to some of the hypocrisy we have been demonstrating here. It is all ways good for us as an organization to take time to look in the mirror.

I also understand there are many sides to almost every issue when it comes to using public land. I am not only a NEMBA member but a long time AMC member.

Unfortunately speaking for myself your PR problems are much larger than NEMBA's. I and many other outdoor enthusiasts see far too much negative ATV behavior in the woods. I wish you and the responsible leaders in your sport well because if your membership can't be convinced as "ATV_user" states to maintain trails then you will loose to the extremists.
Best of luck

[mtbtom]

MTBTom has done an excellent job of documenting his points by letting irresponsible ORVers (or ORVers who appear to be irresponsible) cut their own throats with their videos and comments. But the sword has two edges, and on the backswing, there are plenty of videos and reports of irresponsible MTBers who have pissed off other trail users and damaged or modified public property.



But there is a BIG difference you are ignoring. The trail annihilation in the video is not just of some random ATVers riding around in the woods - The video is of a DEM sanctioned event, put on by an ATV
Advocacy Group (Berkshire Trails Council) in a Massachusetts State forest (on a multi use trail)

Is it responsible ATV trail riding? I dunno you tell me.

[TrailBate]

but on the bright side, when "peak oil" actually happens, nobody will be riding ATV's anymore. ;)

[ATV_User]

MTBTom has done an excellent job of documenting his points by letting irresponsible ORVers (or ORVers who appear to be irresponsible) cut their own throats with their videos and comments. But the sword has two edges, and on the backswing, there are plenty of videos and reports of irresponsible MTBers who have pissed off other trail users and damaged or modified public property.



But there is a BIG difference you are ignoring. The trail annihilation in the video is not just of some random ATVers riding around in the woods - The video is of a DEM sanctioned event, put on by an ATV
Advocacy Group (Berkshire Trails Council) in a Massachusetts State forest (on a multi use trail)

Is it responsible ATV trail riding? I dunno you tell me.



I understand you issues with the video, but please get your facts straight. The berkshire trails council is a method for a collection of club officials to interface to the state. The ride has nothing to do with the BTC. And to say that it is a DEM sanctioned event, come on. Please use a little common sense.

[off piste]

MTBTom has done an excellent job of documenting his points by letting irresponsible ORVers (or ORVers who appear to be irresponsible) cut their own throats with their videos and comments. But the sword has two edges, and on the backswing, there are plenty of videos and reports of irresponsible MTBers who have pissed off other trail users and damaged or modified public property.





But there is a BIG difference you are ignoring. The trail annihilation in the video is not just of some random ATVers riding around in the woods - The video is of a DEM sanctioned event, put on by an ATV
Advocacy Group (Berkshire Trails Council) in a Massachusetts State forest (on a multi use trail)

Is it responsible ATV trail riding? I dunno you tell me.



I understand you issues with the video, but please get your facts straight. The berkshire trails council is a method for a collection of club officials to interface to the state. The ride has nothing to do with the BTC. And to say that it is a DEM sanctioned event, come on. Please use a little common sense.


So, are you saying that the film was taken on a multi-use (not ATV-ony) trail, and reflects behaviour in such a setting that responsible ATV operators condemn?

Mark

[TrailBate]

I understand you issues with the video, but please get your facts straight. The berkshire trails council is a method for a collection of club officials to interface to the state. The ride has nothing to do with the BTC. And to say that it is a DEM sanctioned event, come on. Please use a little common sense.


why is it that all the ATV posters on here are all part of the SOLUTION, and none of them are part of, or affiliated with, the PROBLEM?

[Big Game]

Not convinced. ATV's are a menace and are an unreasonable use. I will not support any access for them.

[mtbtom]

I understand you issues with the video, but please get your facts straight. The berkshire trails council is a method for a collection of club officials to interface to the state. The ride has nothing to do with the BTC. And to say that it is a DEM sanctioned event, come on. Please use a little common sense.


OK, then help me get the facts straight.

I assume that was a Berkshire Trails Council club ride correct? It was advertised as such on your web site (before that and all the other information about it including the other videos were removed).

What group/club was responsible for "clean up" after the event ?

As far being "sanctioned' by the DEM - Do you need to get permission from the DEM before such events are held ? If so, the DEM allowed it to happen, correct?

Suddenly it's just a spontaneous gathering of random ATVers out in the woods...The damage control on your end is amazing.

Wasn't it you that proclaimed (about 18 pages ago) that mountain bikes do more damage than quads because with a quad the weight is distributed across 4 wheels ? Still waiting for that "study" to get posted. Common sense indeed.

[off piste]

I understand you issues with the video, but please get your facts straight. The berkshire trails council is a method for a collection of club officials to interface to the state. The ride has nothing to do with the BTC. And to say that it is a DEM sanctioned event, come on. Please use a little common sense.


why is it that all the ATV posters on here are all part of the SOLUTION, and none of them are part of, or affiliated with, the PROBLEM?



Well, gee, uhhhh....

Maybe because the only ATV'ers that would bother coming on our site are the ones who care enough to at least try to solve the problem, wether or not that can ever be done. Illegal riders who couldn't give a **** really wouldn't spend too much time here, think?

Wow! That one hurt. I couldn't afford any time on a Cray to do the processing, so I had to solve it through long hand differential calculus.

I need an aspirin.

[TrailBate]

I understand you issues with the video, but please get your facts straight. The berkshire trails council is a method for a collection of club officials to interface to the state. The ride has nothing to do with the BTC. And to say that it is a DEM sanctioned event, come on. Please use a little common sense.


why is it that all the ATV posters on here are all part of the SOLUTION, and none of them are part of, or affiliated with, the PROBLEM?



Well, gee, uhhhh....

Maybe because the only ATV'ers that would bother coming on our site are the ones who care enough to at least try to solve the problem, wether or not that can ever be done. Illegal riders who couldn't give a **** really wouldn't spend too much time here, think?

Wow! That one hurt. I couldn't afford any time on a Cray to do the processing, so I had to solve it through long hand differential calculus.

I need an aspirin.


my point was that anytime somebody brings up a specific incident, these ATVers are just "oh, we had nothing to do with that." It's as if all THEY do is fix trails, it's the OTHER guys, the bad apples, the minority, that trash them.

[Ozzy]

Having worked on these trail issues for many years, I have some comments and fresh info.


First of all thank you for the time spent and information you've made availabable in your posting! I do have several points I would like to make though...



NETRA has been proposing a trail maintenance sticker program for several years, and currently has a bill in the MA Environment Committee, HB1289. This bill would require all ORVs that use state forest trails, or any other trails included in the program, to display a "Trails Maintenance Assessment" sticker. The funds from the sale of these TMA stickers would go towards trail maintenance, and some could also be spent on increased enforcement. The system is modelled off the successful VAST VT snowmobile program. Instead of a dedicated fund that can be raided, the funds would go to the issueing organization (NETRA), with oversight by the DCR and an accounting report provided to the DCR.


First of all isn't our registration fee essentially a trails maintainance fee as it is... I mean, my understanding is the ORV's are legal to operate only on marked trails in the state forests, and private property... And further, that if you are operation your orv on private property, you do not (as is only fair) have to register it. Therefore it seems the only people who use the state forests would be registering their vehicles, and an 'assessment sticker' fee would be redundant and unfair (not that most fee's and/or taxes in this state aren't).
Secondly, if money is at issue in direct relation to usage, since we already have (via registration) money coming in from the ORV community, it would seem to me the next logical step is to charge a fee to others using the forests. This would include hikers, snow-shoers, mountain bikers, etc... I have no qualms with paying a higher fee as an orv operator, because stress the trail system to a significantly higher degree. I think $40 a year -vs- $40 every 2 years is fair enough, that would double what we put in. In addition I would suggest a $10 a year fee for each of the other aforementioned groups. After all we are talking maintainance, and every trail needs maintainance, take for example the Appalacian trail: We know _ONLY_ hikers use those trails but they too need constant work to keep them in acceptable shape. Simply put, if we pay for it, everyone else should to, otherwise its plain descrimination.
Furthermore if there needs to be a serperate fund to avoid it being raided, as you imply current funds are, why not address the real issue and divert current funds to that seperate account, why should we pay more because our politicians are crooked!

[huff'npuff]

part of Ozzy's post :

" After all we are talking maintainance, and every trail needs maintainance, take for example the Appalacian trail: We know _ONLY_ hikers use those trails but they too need constant work to keep them in acceptable shape. Simply put, if we pay for it, everyone else should to, otherwise its plain descrimination."

NEMBA already does their own maintenance,and the same trails are used by hikers. Why should anyone besides you pay for YOUR damage ?

[bdee]

Having worked on these trail issues for many years, I have some comments and fresh info.


First of all thank you for the time spent and information you've made availabable in your posting! I do have several points I would like to make though...



NETRA has been proposing a trail maintenance sticker program for several years, and currently has a bill in the MA Environment Committee, HB1289. This bill would require all ORVs that use state forest trails, or any other trails included in the program, to display a "Trails Maintenance Assessment" sticker. The funds from the sale of these TMA stickers would go towards trail maintenance, and some could also be spent on increased enforcement. The system is modelled off the successful VAST VT snowmobile program. Instead of a dedicated fund that can be raided, the funds would go to the issueing organization (NETRA), with oversight by the DCR and an accounting report provided to the DCR.


First of all isn't our registration fee essentially a trails maintainance fee as it is... I mean, my understanding is the ORV's are legal to operate only on marked trails in the state forests, and private property... And further, that if you are operation your orv on private property, you do not (as is only fair) have to register it. Therefore it seems the only people who use the state forests would be registering their vehicles, and an 'assessment sticker' fee would be redundant and unfair (not that most fee's and/or taxes in this state aren't).
Secondly, if money is at issue in direct relation to usage, since we already have (via registration) money coming in from the ORV community, it would seem to me the next logical step is to charge a fee to others using the forests. This would include hikers, snow-shoers, mountain bikers, etc... I have no qualms with paying a higher fee as an orv operator, because stress the trail system to a significantly higher degree. I think $40 a year -vs- $40 every 2 years is fair enough, that would double what we put in. In addition I would suggest a $10 a year fee for each of the other aforementioned groups. After all we are talking maintainance, and every trail needs maintainance, take for example the Appalacian trail: We know _ONLY_ hikers use those trails but they too need constant work to keep them in acceptable shape. Simply put, if we pay for it, everyone else should to, otherwise its plain descrimination.
Furthermore if there needs to be a serperate fund to avoid it being raided, as you imply current funds are, why not address the real issue and divert current funds to that seperate account, why should we pay more because our politicians are crooked!





I think all user groups are better off demonstrating a willingness to provide the labor and tools needed for maintenance, rather than forking over cash to a State Agency in the form of fees. The AMC, NEMBA (and I'm sure some equestrian groups I can't think of right now) do this already. We pay for our own tools and supply the labor - unless we are assisting a State project and DEM or Parks and Rec. let us borrow a trailer or something like that. While "pay to play" isn't the worst thing in the world (I've dealt with it in S Florida - $3 every ride in a State Park), it hardly seems right when you have taxpayers doing an awful lot of the trail maintenance. It also scares off newbies to any activity.

It's probably not feasible to assess a user fee or a registration fee from every user group. How do you collect from hikers - charge $10 for every pair of Timberlands sold? Charging $10 for every mtn bike sold assumes they would be ridden on trails as well - most aren't, they're used by students and bike path riders. The thing with ATVs and MX bikes is they are very purpose built (not that MTBs aren't) but how many kids ride an ATV to class (other than in like rural VT or ME) ? There is a reasonable assumption that ATVs and MX bikes will be used on trails, thereby causing a high degree of impact and requiring funds to support maintenance. But who pays the fee? All riders or just those using State land?

The plan outlined above sounds great - NETRA gets the money to spend maintaining and designing trails from those using State land. My question is - how is the program implemented? Who enforces it ? Since all ATVs sold aren't used on State land it can't be implemented at the retail level when new ATVs are bought - it's not a fair assumption all ATVs will see public trails. If it's up to the individuals to register then the incentive has to be there. In other words there has to be a good chance you'll get fined if you're riding on State land without a sticker. I'm assuming those in NETRA would pony up the cash as they're already in the choir so to speak. The question is how do you get the rest of the riders to spend the money?

[Ozzy]

NEMBA already does their own maintenance,and the same trails are used by hikers. Why should anyone besides you pay for YOUR damage ?


Good, NETRA and its affiliate groups also do their own trail maintenance, in addition we have to pay fees... Seems like your missing half the equation...
Actually, I strike that... Its my opnion we _ALL_ already pay state taxes, and in all fairness I would say NOBODY should have to pay any more than that tax to maintain the forest as long as we as groups are willing to under-take the trail maint. through volunteering on the trails our respective groups use. It does not cost anything to show up with some shovels, chainsaws, and rakes, irregardless of what kind of trails you need the tools for. Any materials can be bought with group donations or affiliated business donations.

Yet, being that we maintain our trails and 'money' is required nonetheless, then the same should go for your group... I find it interesting that given the information I have you guys have NO PROBLEM with us being charged fee's, but as soon as mention of you paying a $10/year fee is put on the table all of the sudden its not necessary because 'you' do the work... Again... So don't we.

Just to reiterate, I don't believe in fee's for anyone at all when it comes to this subject, I think its just a sly little double taxation our politicians are pulling off, with mention of triple taxation upcoming... what a joke... But if thats what it has to be, at least make it so EVERYONE gets triple taxed, lol.

[Ozzy]

why is it that all the ATV posters on here are all part of the SOLUTION, and none of them are part of, or affiliated with, the PROBLEM?


Simple. Most of the atv guys who are out their ruining the trails and doing exactly what their not supposed to be doing could give a flying _expletive_ about whats happening in the legal circles regarding their sport, The people who are online reading about this stuff and concerned enough about it to at least be informed are the one's your dealing with here... Not the 6-pack swillin' yahoo's that I dislike just as much as you. As an atv owner and rider, the beer swiller's are as destructive, actually, more destructive to my rights to ride the trails than anyone else. We don't want them on your trails anymore than YOU do, because it just creates a bunch of headaches for us, thats why we constantly try to get the message out... Problem is, the ones the are the problem are 18-22 year olds who don't give a you know what... I ask that you don't stereo-type us all like that
Sure, to you our trails look like hell, but to us, they're our little piece of heaven, and as long as we stay on our trails, it should be of no concern to you. Just know that we do as much as we can to stop them through education, and it does have an effect, but you're never gonna stop 'em all.

[Ozzy]

Not convinced. ATV's are a menace and are an unreasonable use. I will not support any access for them.


Why are they unreasonable, it is exactly what they were designed for??? Yes, our trails are largely un-usable by you, but as long as we have seperate trails, whats the problem?

[Ozzy]

It's probably not feasible to assess a user fee or a registration fee from every user group. How do you collect from hikers - charge $10 for every pair of Timberlands sold? Charging $10 for every mtn bike sold assumes they would be ridden on trails as well - most aren't, they're used by students and bike path riders. The thing with ATVs and MX bikes is they are very purpose built (not that MTBs aren't) but how many kids ride an ATV to class (other than in like rural VT or ME) ? There is a reasonable assumption that ATVs and MX bikes will be used on trails, thereby causing a high degree of impact and requiring funds to support maintenance. But who pays the fee? All riders or just those using State land?


It would only be fair to charge it to those using the state land in my opinion. I guess my thought is pick 1 system and stick with it, whether its registration, or what NETRA suggests, it should be one or the other, and to be honest, I don't care if the fee is larger (within reason). Maybe it should be more like gun licensing... You have to take a safety course, which also covers all relevant state laws, then take and pass a test, then pay a fee along the lines of $50/year to keep your license. As well, anyone who is NOT licensed should get a REAL fine if caught on anything other than private property... ALong the lines of $200 first offense, $500 second offense, and $1000 third offense. You start throwing numbers like that around and all of the sudden people start to really think about how stupid they're being... All this info should be required to be divulged through the dealership and signed off on by the atv purchaser... Again, if you'll be riding only on private property, then you have the option of not going this route, but otherwise, I think its fair as long as people are properly informed and educated about the laws.

[bdee]

If everyone that's giving Ozzy sh*t would kindly open their NEMBA history book to page 87 and read the parts about access at the Fells. Please insert ATV anywhere the word MTB exists, please also insert the word MTB anywhere the word Hiker exists.

Look familiar to anyone? It reads like this: There's this targeted and villified user group that's trying to reel in responsible members. At the same time they are attempting to educate the completely irresponsible users that gave the majority a bad name, leading to their loss of access.

Obviously the guy wouldn't be here, and wouldn't be interested in our opinions if he wasn't advocating responsible use. We have the same problems - namely that we can't educate or control the actions of everyone. We're just in a different, and much better, place when it comes to our perception with land managers and the other user groups. But hey, guess what, we still have our enemies and they still think we're more evil than Dick Cheney.

I'm probably as anti ATV (on singletrack) as the next guy, but they are not going away. If they can have their own trails, and ride fireroads and whatever else floats their boat then fine, let 'em. As long as the ST we share with other users isn't destroyed we really can't complain. I'm not advocating we go out of our way to publicly support ATV access - but we probably shouldn't be publicly denouncing them either. It sets a bad precedent. I'm sure these guys could learn a lot about attracting members from groups like IMBA and NEMBA, or the AMC even - nothing wrong with leveraging other user groups knowledge to help them get a better handle on their situation. It would probably benefit everyone.

BG your qoute cracked me up. A person riding an ATV might be a menace if they're a jackass. ATVs are like anything else potentially destructive (brains, guns, liquor, lawndarts etc. ) it's the hands they fall into that determine the potential level of destruction.

[mtbtom]

Bedee: As far as I'm concerned the "shoe on the other foot" argument doesn't apply here. ATVs, by their very nature are too destructive and intrusive to coexist on multi-use trails. Trail impact aside, why should anyone be subjected to that degree of noise, the stench of burning oil and the danger of being run into by a speeding vehicle when you're out trying to enjoy the woods?

In a perfect world everyone would have a place to have their fun. The jeeps would have jeep trails to ride, paint ballers would have designated paint areas to shoot in, and the ATVs crowd would have muddy double tracks to annihilate. But unlike "out west" as ATV_User keeps referring too, open space around here is very scarce, thus trails need to be 'multi-use'.

But despite the scarcity of open space and the fact that they can't even maintain what they currently have access to (Georgetown Rowely for example), ATV's want even more land to ride on, like Bear Brook State Park and other 'unnamed' areas in Eastern Mass. This is based on the premise that more ATV areas will decrease illegal activity in places they are not currently allowed. I don't buy that line, and it sounds like blackmail to me. Besides, those trails which are opened to ATVs are then guaranteed to be lost to everyone else, except the ATVs of course. What is there to gain ?

If you think that we should "all get a long" somehow, ask yourself if you want QUADS tearing around your town's conservation land, the abandoned rail trail behind your house, or destroying all the sweet singletrack in your local stash, because that's what they ultimately want - more land to ride on.

[biffster]

This is the ultimate quad post. The guy titled his post "Bad people calling cops".

This guy posted on a quad site about how pissed he was that a guy called the cops on him. Even went so far as to post the guy's name.

ATV user, you say call the cops when you see illegal riding? Is this how your crew behaves when they get caught trespassing?

Click on the link below to see:

http://cttrailusers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=185

[ATV_User]

I understand you issues with the video, but please get your facts straight. The berkshire trails council is a method for a collection of club officials to interface to the state. The ride has nothing to do with the BTC. And to say that it is a DEM sanctioned event, come on. Please use a little common sense.


OK, then help me get the facts straight.

I assume that was a Berkshire Trails Council club ride correct?
No, the Berkshire Tails Council is not a club at all. They do not have rides or anything. The BTC is a method used to meet with the state, that's it!

It was advertised as such on your web site (before that and all the other information about it including the other videos were removed). Advertised that way? Definitely not, as I was the one who posted it! I KNOW WHAT I POSTED!

What group/club was responsible for "clean up" after the event ? The club that was responsible for savoy has had problems over the last couple of years. Last season, 104 people showed up at Savoy in hopes of performing the required trail maintenance to make that place better. This was a huge step since no group has had a work party of that size show up in probably 10 years! I did a lot of leg work, posting everywhere, calling people, etc. to get that many to show up. A step in the right direction. As for this season, a new club (dirtbike I think) has stepped up to the plate and taken over the maintenance for Savoy.

As far being "sanctioned' by the DEM - Do you need to get permission from the DEM before such events are held ? If so, the DEM allowed it to happen, correct?
Permission to ride? definitely not. It was not an event like a poker run, turkey run, etc. It was a ride, simple as that.

Suddenly it's just a spontaneous gathering of random ATVers out in the woods...The damage control on your end is amazing.

Wasn't it you that proclaimed (about 18 pages ago) that mountain bikes do more damage than quads because with a quad the weight is distributed across 4 wheels ? Still waiting for that "study" to get posted. Common sense indeed.
No, it was ATV_Rider, and I am still waiting for that too!

[ATV_User]

I understand you issues with the video, but please get your facts straight. The berkshire trails council is a method for a collection of club officials to interface to the state. The ride has nothing to do with the BTC. And to say that it is a DEM sanctioned event, come on. Please use a little common sense.


why is it that all the ATV posters on here are all part of the SOLUTION, and none of them are part of, or affiliated with, the PROBLEM?


I made the video, was on the ride. We were on sanctioned trails, not going off into the woods. Am I part of the problem in your eyes, yes. Am I riding on non-sanctioned trails, single track, etc? No. Am I involved in work parties across many clubs, YES. I think I am doing my part, the real problem is all the other yahoos that can't be reasoned with.

[ATV_User]

In a perfect world everyone would have a place to have their fun. The jeeps would have jeep trails to ride, paint ballers would have designated paint areas to shoot in, and the ATVs crowd would have muddy double tracks to annihilate. But unlike "out west" as ATV_User keeps referring too, open space around here is very scarce, thus trails need to be 'multi-use'.



If you would re-read my post about "out west", I all I am looking at it their maintenance system. That's it, nothing more. All those places HAVE A SYSTEM IN PLACE. Simple. We need a better system in place (with all the points covered in my previous posts).

[ATV_User]

This is the ultimate quad post. The guy titled his post "Bad people calling cops".

This guy posted on a quad site about how pissed he was that a guy called the cops on him. Even went so far as to post the guy's name.

ATV user, you say call the cops when you see illegal riding? Is this how your crew behaves when they get caught trespassing?

Click on the link below to see:

http://cttrailusers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=185


First off, we ride sanctioned trails, so I have never had to worry about this. Second, the guy is a tool. The people with his attitude are the problem. I have joined that board as well and hopefully I can change his and others attitudes.

I have called, on occasion, the park authorities after I have seem the same people on unauthorized trails. We as an organization (Western Mass ATV), self police everytime we are out riding. Not everyone listens.

[nhiker]

Not convinced. ATV's are a menace and are an unreasonable use. I will not support any access for them.


Why are they unreasonable, it is exactly what they were designed for??? Yes, our trails are largely un-usable by you, but as long as we have seperate trails, whats the problem?





Personally I don't have a problem with thislast statement. But I do have a problem with is you coming into our house...saying we are morons who don't have any basis for our opinions or any experiance to back up our opinions..."MANY atv riders ride illegally and destroy single track or conservation property and treat the rest of us with the same attitude you have been demonstrating here. And yes I beleive you folks have a long way to go with getting your user groups to do trail work. Cleaning up your own mess goes a long waytoward creating a better public image. This is a lesson we keep teaching our fellow mountainbikers. I respect the opinions of "Trail Rat" and ATV_User...I will listen to them all day.. But you have some huge cahonies coming here calling people ignorant and cowardly then saying I have a chip on my shoulder when I call you on this approach. If I came into your house that way you and all your buddies would jump all over my ass. So all I personally am saying is you want to be a combative fool go away, I can't hear you. You want to debate with out acrimoney and name calling, Then Yeah I will listen!

[TrailBate]

Once you guys learn to stick to your own ATV trails, what are you going to do about the noise and the pollution? Most people go to parks to enjoy being out in nature, with the peace and quiet and fresh air. ATV's just don't belong in parks, period.

[mtbtom]

ATv_User: Whatever. I'm sure the same type of multi-use trail annihilation happens on your "club rides" too - on which you need to pay $20 and be a "club member" to participate in. (I'd link to the page that covers all that on your web site but all the legal mumbo jumbo scared me off)

[ATV_User]

Once you guys learn to stick to your own ATV trails, what are you going to do about the noise and the pollution? Most people go to parks to enjoy being out in nature, with the peace and quiet and fresh air. ATV's just don't belong in parks, period.


Once again, I think most of this (notice I said most) could be cut down. There are noise requirements on any motorized vehicle in the parks, yet there is no enforcement of this. As for the rest of the, we'll call it legal noise for lack of something better, I don't honestly know what to do. I'll look at the trail maps and see, but I think most of the trails are routed away from camping areas.

[ATV_User]

ATv_User: Whatever. I'm sure the same type of multi-use trail annihilation happens on your "club rides" too - on which you need to pay $20 and be a "club member" to participate in. (I'd link to the page that covers all that on your web site but all the legal mumbo jumbo scared me off)


Whatever? Not to poke you, but you sounded like a fool with your spouting the wrong things. As for the "trail annihilation" as you call it, yes, we use the trails and by your definition, we destroy the trails. By our definition, we use the trails. All depends on how you look at it. And once again, we are out there, just like you, to try and maintain the trails, and right now, it is a loosing battle considering the amount of use and lack of support.

[felixatvtc]

As for complainning, all I see here is bashing. I came here to show all you that there are responsible people out there. Who says that I am not on the pther boards? Have I complained on this board? Look back through my posts.


I guess i still don't see the point of you posting here. As far as i can tell you haven't aided your arguement at all in the 18+ pages. I also don't see what's your point of saying you posted to show there are responsible people out there. Yeah, so what, sometimes a horney teenager ***** a pumpkin too, what do i care? I'd like to think that we all know there are responsible owners and personally power to them, but they are dwarfed in perspective behind the obvious miss-users.

The other thing i've noticed is you say something along the lines of:

"As for some of you others, you are acting like a bunch of self righteous little girls. If you want to make progess, you need to work with the ATVers in order to get them to be responsible. Throwing stones is only gonna make things worse. I'm not saying that you need to agree with, promote ATVs, or even like ATVs. But if you are so concerned with the environment, then the right steps would be to work with instead of just bitching!"

Aren't you contradicting yourself in that paragraph alone? Throwing stones is only going to make things worse, BUT you start off the paragraph with calling NEMBA members a "bunch of self righteous little girls" ::)

Maybe you should be taking your own advice by "taking the right steps" rather then coming onto OUR forum "just bitching." Also, IMO, by "bitching" amongst ourselves and on A BIKING BOARD i think it motivates other bikers to realize that this is a seroius topic and they should "take the right steps" by becoming more involved.

That's all i really wanted to add



Quoting my post from SEVERAL pages ago. Which was never answered oddly ::)
I still don't see your point of posting in a mountain biking forum. You continue to preach to us about trail education. Fine, i agree with that, BUT preach to the people that need to be spoken too, i.e. on the ATV FORUMS! ;D

[ATV_User]

I am on many forums and am always looking to try and limit the illegal riding and push work parties.

I don't know why I keep coming back here. I tried to stop a while ago, but got curious as to what was being said. I guess I can't stand people generalizing or bad mouthing groups when they don't know the whole story. I wanted this group to see that there are responsible people working towards a "better tomarrow".

[off piste]

Quoting my post from SEVERAL pages ago. Which was never answered oddly ::)
I still don't see your point of posting in a mountain biking forum. You continue to preach to us about trail education. Fine, i agree with that, BUT preach to the people that need to be spoken too, i.e. on the ATV FORUMS! ;D


Just to set the chronology strait -- the ATV'ers started posting here after MTBTOM began this thread, posting a link to the trail video the title refers to. The ATV'ers have been here since, speaking their side of things. That's pretty much why they're here, as I see it.

[off piste]

Once you guys learn to stick to your own ATV trails, what are you going to do about the noise and the pollution? Most people go to parks to enjoy being out in nature, with the peace and quiet and fresh air. ATV's just don't belong in parks, period.


Beyond the damage the machines do to the terrain, that's my biggest gripe with them. Although the 4 stroke machines are quite a bit better on the ears than the 2 stroke machines. What's ironic is that I usually enjoy MTB'ing on trails created by dirt bikes, but absolutly can't stand the sound of the things. I can put up with the sound of an unmodified 4 stroke ATV, but can't stand what they do to the trails.

I just don't personally believe that motorized traffic belongs in state parks. Conversely, there's many who will argue that NO wheeled vehicles belong either. Then there's those who can argue about other forms of noise pollution. I know when I'm hiking or biking solo, I'm quite aware of the yelling and noise created by a large group of hikers or cyclists, even though I'm guilty of the same when I'm in a group.

[felixatvtc]

I am on many forums and am always looking to try and limit the illegal riding and push work parties.

I don't know why I keep coming back here. I tried to stop a while ago, but got curious as to what was being said. I guess I can't stand people generalizing or bad mouthing groups when they don't know the whole story. I wanted this group to see that there are responsible people working towards a "better tomarrow".


I hope you didn't take my post incorrectly, i wasn't saying get the F out. I just assume most people have level heads about stuff in general. I just find it silly that you keep bringing up the same points(education, policing, etc). We know this already, which is why there's NEMBA Trail Care/Trail Building days and when there are bikers that use the trails incorrectly we teach them. (hell i'm guilty, i used to bike all springtime in the mud :-X)

Its as if i signed onto a hiking forum. And there is a Trail Issues section and a thread about how MTBs are ruining the trails. So i post that i'm a biker and i'm responsible so there. Of course you are going to get flamed (or whatever the new hot word is for it). Then it goes back and forth about hiking trails are for people on foot not on bikes. A lot is said but what actually gets done?

You have to understand they/we aren't complaining about the responsible riders(although i guess some are), they are cheezed off about the blatant lack of respect for nature/law/common sence riders.

I wish you good luck on your journey and you've taken on a task that i'm glad i don't have to bear the burden of.

[mtbtom]

Whatever? Not to poke you, but you sounded like a fool with your spouting the wrong things. As for the "trail annihilation" as you call it, yes, we use the trails and by your definition, we destroy the trails. By our definition, we use the trails. All depends on how you look at it. And once again, we are out there, just like you, to try and maintain the trails, and right now, it is a loosing battle considering the amount of use and lack of support.


Put it this way - The "responsible riding" exhibited in your video is ALLOWED TO HAPPEN on a multi use trail, by the DEM. Thus, the activity is SANCTIONED by the DEM. Get it ? Trail annihilation as shown in your video, on public property, is a problem, and it's hard for me to believe that even the most jaded land manager out there would allow this to happen on Massachusetts State land.

Really not interested in arguing about the details of whether or not it was a "club ride", or what the "club" is or is not, and what the Webster's definition of "sanctioned" is. You know why? 'cos as I stated before, I'm sure the same type of deliberate misuse of public land happens on your "club rides" too !

Besides, if there wasn't a problem with the video, or if there wasn't something you are trying to cover up, then why take it down off your website? Because "everyone's seen them (it) already"? Yeah right - only a FOOL would believe that.

[Ozzy]

[I still don't see your point of posting in a mountain biking forum. You continue to preach to us about trail education. Fine, i agree with that, BUT preach to the people that need to be spoken too, i.e. on the ATV FORUMS! ;D


I think we have a right to defend ourselves against people who come on atv sites and link to video's of totally legit riding and then spout off how they're gonna send the video to their state representatives, and demand we be banned from the forests... From the beginning this video has been warped into some kind of discussion about atv's destroying single tracks, buts not what the video is. Everything on that video is perfectly legal yet someone found it a good reason to threaten us with... E.G. Didn't you see the bull's eye picture earlier in the thread? Point being I am not gonna sit here and allow the truth to be twisted and threats to be made which are baseless without at least putting in my own two cents, and I think thats fair... Now if you wanna talk about single track destruction in general, its something that needs to be addressed, but not in reference to a video that clearly does NOT depict that... Furthermore, if someone had not posted that video taken from an atv site here and put the twist on it, and posted belligerent remarks to atv'ers, none of us would be here period. Point being someone over here started it when they stuck their nose in someone else's business, and when you get the same back its a big problem all of the sudden. I would suggest killing the whole thread and started a new one that can be constructive... Maybe listing what you view as problems with atv'ers, and possible, _REALISTIC_ solutions, and create a dialogue that way. It would be better to come to some positive compromise that move things in the right direction for all involved as opposed to just being intolerant and unmoving.

[mtbtom]

Everything on that video is perfectly legal yet someone found it a good reason to threaten us with...


How paradoxical is it that the video depicts "Perfectly legal" and "legitimate" ATV riding, yet you feel it's necessary to hide it. ;D

[atvguy]

ok first off i am an atv'er and 99% of us are like you mtber's we care about the trails we care about nature. when you ride responsibly the amount of damage done will be minimal. in this state atv's are limited to 6-8 state forest to ride in. so of course with this limited amount of land to ride the 99% of us who are registered and legal are going to go where its legal to ride and the consquence of this is heavy traffic on the trails which cause trail erosion. now if more parks were opened up to atv access the number of atv's on the trails would be spread out and result in less damage. there would be less atv's on the same trail which would keep trail erosion to a minimum. i know you mtber's are saying BS right now to what i am writing but its true instead of having 10,000 bikes riding 30-50 trails in 6-8 parks they could be spread out to more to more trails and more parks which means less atv's per trail which means less damage. we buy these machines to get out and explore we register them and pay taxes on them and we should be allowed to ride them in the state parks.

[slapheadmofo]

Maybe listing what you view as problems with atv'ers, and possible, _REALISTIC_ solutions, and create a dialogue that way

I've seen a lot of that in this thread also. I myself have asked a number of times for same sort of thing from your side, without much luck.

The video is looked at for exactly what it is - an example of what legal ATV riding on a legal ATV trail looks like (which is a frigging horrowshow to most other user groups). It's good for everyone to get a look at what they can expect the trails to look like if they legalize ATV access in their neck of the woods. At some point in time, that trail was a singletrack.

Gotta head back out to Leo this weekend and get a few pictures of the new doubletrack that some ATV group felt they could designate as part of their route (arrows and signs on trees, etc). It also used to be a singletrack. I have no idea how or if they got permission to do this in a state forest but I'm going to find out. Be nice to see them all out there with shovels restoring the trail to how it was. Probably be too busy trashing some other place though.

[WMATV]

deliberate misuse of public land

I disagree with this statement. This is not deliberate or any other kind of misuse. These are legal atvs, riding legal atv trails. We could go around and around about what the definitions of use are, and not change each other’s opinions.

A couple of points I'd like to make. These are my opinions only, and are not representative of any organization I belong to.

1. I personally have no problem with a pay to play type of system. I use the state forests for ORV use, and as such have no problem with a fee system that would cover maintenance, development, enforcement and education. I'd rather pay for what I use directly than pay more taxes that goes to countless programs that I will never benefit from. How such a program is developed will determine if I endorse it or not. I am working with the organization that is developing such a plan.

2. I also feel the multi-use trail system is somewhat obsolete. I think they need to be separated: ORV, hiking, mtn biking, horse. This would eliminate a lot of problems. Each group desires different trail conditions, and by separating the user groups it is more obtainable.

3. The noise issue. Today machines are considerably less noisy than years ago. I don't personally know the legal decibel limits, but I think most manufacturers advertise machine levels at less than 98 decibels. Most after market gear is aimed at less noise as well. Sanctioned race limits are 102 decibels I think.

4. The yahoo factor. Unfortunately, ours are much more noticeable than yours. There will always be some. They make our advances harder than any other group. We can't solve every issue, but it does not stop us from trying.

5. I find it somewhat funny at completely unorganized levels every user groups seems to get along. When I ride and come across other users (all types listed above), I stop and talk with these people. This is our trail vs your trail garbage does not exist. We are all outside enjoying the day doing our thing. Sometimes it seems the more organized these groups get, the worse the fighting between the groups get. Granted everyone works hard for what they have gained, and maybe that adds to the frustration level. I just found it odd that at the ground level each group gets along, but higher up they don't.

I have several other thoughts I could post, but it would not accomplish anything here. We are not going to change each other’s opinions on several of these issues. As indicated by someone else earlier, the problem folks are not reading this forum. For what it's worth, we will continue to try to do our part as the ORV community to work with the state for better system of trail maintenance, educate folks on issues such as were legal riding is and is not, get work people involve with performing maintenance and repairs, etc.

[TrailBate]

too much to cut and paste... but anyway.

1. My solution.
Keep ATV's on the parks they have already ruined, and don't give them anymore. This argument that says "if we let ATV's have more trails, the ones they use would get less damage", is idiotic. What you're actually saying is "we're destroying the trails we use to the point they are no fun to ride on, so we need more." Keep your current "trails" and maintain them with your own money. If after say, 5 years, those "trails" are still in good shape, and ATV's have stayed off all other trails, maybe THEN you'll earn the right to have more trails.

2. Parks were never made for, nor designed for, motorized use. Period. Parks were made to enjoy peace and quiet of nature. I don't care how many decibels an ATV puts out. They're loud, fast, and desctructive. Bikes are quiet. I've come upon hikers and wildlife who never heard me coming. You'll see a mountainbiker before you hear him, most times. You can't tell a hikers-only trail from a MTB trail by looking at it. Often in the fall and winter, you'll have trouble even picking out exactly where the trail is.

3. yes, you paid money for your ATV, and taxes. So what. I paid money and taxes for my Sonoma, but you don't see me destrying trails with it. Some people pay money and taxes for their guns, and register them. You dont' see them (most of them) using them in shopping malls and anywhere else, just because they paid taxes on them.


IF you can't find more places to ride, don't buy an ATV. If you didn't know that riding places were few, and that most people don't want ATV's in parks, that's your own fault. Do some research next time. Pool your money, buy your own land, and have fun ripping it up. You don't have the RIGHT to any park, especially when all you do is damage it.

[nhiker]

I personally don't mind any of the discussion or the fact the ATV guys are here. What the hell they are welcome just don't **** on people! When you revert to name calling and temper tantrums and hypocrital statements about war and cowardness well ::)...You don't do your side any service. So welcome guys just have some manners. We will I hope return the favor. You wouldn't like me to go on your sites and **** all over it.

I also agree that the cross hair thing was over the top. I for one don't whish you any harm have fun I don't want you in the state parks personally...but thats not my call but...I believe you have a right to ride. Just police yourselves Please and yes "WE IN MTBKING NEED TO DO THE SAME!"...I also really don't see NEMBA holding hands with the ATV groups and "singing cumbayya" at this time. again just my .02 cents.

But discussion is good. That is why I read this thing. ;D

[mtbtom]

2. I also feel the multi-use trail system is somewhat obsolete. I think they need to be separated: ORV, hiking, mtn biking, horse. This would eliminate a lot of problems. Each group desires different trail conditions, and by separating the user groups it is more obtainable.


Open space is scarce - and you want single use trails where everyone else is thrown off at the expense of ATVs ? ? ? ?

It's pretty much known that the only use that can't co-exist with other uses is ATV riding.

[Gleece]

I am a thankfully retired veteran from this war and have not read the preceding 23 pages of posts but will chime in to say that TrailBait's 4 points above are pretty right on.

ORVs are legal to posess but that doesn't convey any rights to ride them on public land.

All people are equally welcome to come out and enjoy state forests & parks, but there are certain things you can and can't do in them.

Perhaps there are not enough legal places to ride ORVs. That does not mean that it is necessarily the state DRC's responsibility to provide trails. Just because state forests are convenient large udeveloped areas with trails in them does not mean that they are the only places ORVs might ride. In fact these areas were set aside for, among other things, natural resource conservation and quiet recreation for all, two things that are often incompatible with ORV use.

Finding a place for ORV use in a small densely populated place like MA is a huge challenge. If the ORV community wants to see it solved, they need to step up and get a little more creative than continually trying to get more state parks opened (their best chance at that left with the "DEM") and riding illegally all over the place (that 1% sure gets around!) Find a way to create ORV-specific places that don't have the conflicting uses. Look at other states. Look at surplus state property, brownfields. Get some land-rich entrpreneur to open an ORV park. Grab the registration money and increase the fees. Buy the next Vietnam for yourselves.

I always thought something like this might help:
http://web.mit.edu/peteb/www/scratch/ORV_Program.doc

Shout out to all the nameless people on both sides here who I've probably met at some point!

[kernel crash]

"if more parks were opened up to atv access the number of atv's on the trails would be spread out and result in less damage."

Really. Where's your proof of that statement? Any studies to back that up? I think more atv usage in more parks equals more damage, to more parks!

[Ozzy]

How paradoxical is it that the video depicts "Perfectly legal" and "legitimate" ATV riding, yet you feel it's necessary to hide it. ;D


First of all it wasn't hidden, it was posted on a public forum for the enjoyment of others. What eventually happended was mtbtom linked to it, and wrote a bunch of propaganda garbage, and then bashed atv'ers over it in a totally unfounded manner. Lets review:


And these guys profess to doing trail work to repair the damage that is done during these events ? Say what ??


Thats propaganda, and skewed information... Here is the REAL information:

In 2004, off-road motorcyclists and ATV riders performed 2826 man-hours of volunteer trail maintenance in seven Massachusetts state forests under contract with the Department of Conservation and Recreation. This is a record level of documented trail work since the Massachusetts MOA program began in 1996, and an eight per cent increase in the amount of volunteer work performed in comparison with the previous year.


No amount of trail work outside of bringing in a front end loader to grade the trail into a road would fill in the 4 foot deep double ruts and now 20 foot wide trail.

Well, I think its pretty clear that's an exagerration... 4 foot deep would bury a 4 wheeler deeper than its handle bars, and from the video we can see that is not the case. Also it is clear that the trails are not 20 feet wide. Really, using this guys method of measuring, I'm about 12 feet tall!


The unfortunate thing is, this is now a trail you would never want to hike, bike or ride a horse on now. 1/2 the ATVs can't even get down it ! Unbelievable.


Again, actually, I saw 1 four wheeler that had trouble on a couple of occasions, not half of them.

That said, it is obvious and UNDENIABLE the video was being used by someone manufacturing misinformation for their own personal gain, we chose not to support such inaccuracies and misrepresentations, and in fact, stand against them as a matter of ethics.

[atvguy]

trail bait you are a retard. first and foremost we have as much a right to the park as you we pay taxes and registration fees. secondly the damage done to trails is exxagerated oh boy theres mud on a trail i might get my spandex dirty the arguement you have that you pay taxes on your sonoma and dont destroy trails with it is stupid because you cannot compare the two. and atv's havent destroyed the trails to the point where the are not any fun if anything a muddy trail is 10 times more fun then a dry one. you dont get it do you the only reason the trails are in the shape they are in(in your eyes damaged) is because there is too much traffic on them less traffic on trails would mean much less damage and idiot with half a brain would be able to figure it out.

[Ozzy]

It's good for everyone to get a look at what they can expect the trails to look like if they legalize ATV access in their neck of the woods. At some point in time, that trail was a singletrack.

Sure, they probably were originally MX trails (not Mt.bk), so now they are 3 feet wider, and after 20 years of use there's some mud holes... Even without 4 wheelers there would be mud holes from the dirt bikes. I think thats the big issue here is the terrain, on dry soil a 4 wheeler may, over years create a _SLIGHT_ set of ruts, but in swamp like conditions, anything that goes through the wet area is going to make it worse. Ride a Mt. Bike through 2 inches of mud and guess what you get... a rut, now run 500 through the same hole every year for 20 years... whatta ya gonna get, a mudhole! Our trails degrade faster largely because of the fact they are used so heavily, and because of the fact that the trails are going through terrain which would otherwise be unsuitable for activities such as hiking and Mt.bk'ing. Again, look at the Appalacian trail, hikers only, but yet there are spots that were once easily travelled that now have wooden planks over them just so hikers can travel them, better yet, many trails have been totally re-routed because they became TOTALLY unusable because they were through wet terrain and so heavily used... Taking a step back and accepting the reality of the situation as such offers more information as to the reason why our trails are more beat up then yours... Terrain and usage!

[TrailBate]

trail bait you are a retard. first and foremost we have as much a right to the park as you we pay taxes and registration fees. secondly the damage done to trails is exxagerated oh boy theres mud on a trail i might get my spandex dirty the arguement you have that you pay taxes on your sonoma and dont destroy trails with it is stupid because you cannot compare the two. and atv's havent destroyed the trails to the point where the are not any fun if anything a muddy trail is 10 times more fun then a dry one. you dont get it do you the only reason the trails are in the shape they are in(in your eyes damaged) is because there is too much traffic on them less traffic on trails would mean much less damage and idiot with half a brain would be able to figure it out.


you are just re-hashing the same dis-proven arguments(with excellent punctuation, I might add). You do not have a right to destroy parks and ruin them for everyone else, I don't care how much you paid in taxes. Paying taxes doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want in a state park.
If you really don't think you ruin trails for everyone else, than you have just chosen to ignore the facts.
And I guess I'm imagining the noise ATV's make.

[atvguy]

paying taxes gives us the right to enter the park and ride any trail that is marked for orv use. yes atv's do make noise but to be able to ride in a state park or forrest an atv must be equiped with a spark arrestor muffler which helps quiet them down. they are not super quiet nor are they so loud that they are harmfull. what facts do you have to prove that atv's damage trails, other then they make them wider and muddier.

[mtbtom]

Ozzy: That vid is a friggin horror show and is a fine example of what happens to multi-use trails when you let quads on it. It doesn't need my comments to make a statement.

My point? Don't blame me, it's YOUR video ! ;D

[atvguy]

i didnt know that 10 inches of mud is a horror show. i dont know the details to the video but it is possible it could have rained recently which would have made the mud situation worse

That does not mean that it is necessarily the state DRC's responsibility to provide trails.

Not true. The federal government distibutes millions of dollars each year to every state, payed for by the gasoline tax, just for this exact purpose. Up to 70 percent can be used for motorized use - 30 percent has to be used for motorized use.

[Ozzy]

ORVs are legal to posess but that doesn't convey any rights to ride them on public land.

Cars are legal to possess as well, what conveys the right to use them on public land (playing devils advocate here). Registration??? Well, ORVs have that as well, specifically, so that we _CAN_ use them on public land... As it stands I have to kindly disagree with your statement based upon the facts at hand.


All people are equally welcome to come out and enjoy state forests & parks, but there are certain things you can and can't do in them.

One of the things you CAN currently do in them is ride ORV's.


Perhaps there are not enough legal places to ride ORVs. That does not mean that it is necessarily the state DRC's responsibility to provide trails.

If they charge us a registration fee so we can access these trail as they do, then yes, it IS the state's responsibility.


Just because state forests are convenient large udeveloped areas with trails in them does not mean that they are the only places ORVs might ride.

It is my understanding that under current laws, aside from personal property, the state forest _ARE_ the only place to ride ORV's. Just because we offend you doesn't mean we should lose our right to public lands... Maybe it has to be public land other than the state-forest, but we do have a right to use state land just like anyone else... This is why we have a democracy here, where majority representation is how decisions are made. We strive in this country (in theory) for equallity, not decrimination and seperation, or demonization.


In fact these areas were set aside for, among other things, natural resource conservation and quiet recreation for all, two things that are often incompatible with ORV use.

Maybe they once were, but they are no longer... And once upon a time we could safely ride atv's about anywhere we wanted (aside from private property to which we had no permission) without hassel, and that too is no longer the case unfortunately.


Finding a place for ORV use in a small densely populated place like MA is a huge challenge. If the ORV community wants to see it solved, they need to step up and get a little more creative than continually trying to get more state parks opened (their best chance at that left with the "DEM") and riding illegally all over the place (that 1% sure gets around!) Find a way to create ORV-specific places that don't have the conflicting uses. Look at other states. Look at surplus state property, brownfields. Get some land-rich entrpreneur to open an ORV park. Grab the registration money and increase the fees. Buy the next Vietnam for yourselves.

Well, I would have no problem riding on other surplus state property if they would just open it to us... Problem is nowadays anyplace with so much as a tree is now a santuary and its a sin to so much as create a walking path on such land, never mind a mt.bk. or ORV trail.

[kernel crash]

"and atv's havent destroyed the trails to the point where the are not any fun if anything a muddy trail is 10 times more fun then a dry one. "

I think this one line speaks volumes of the difference between them and us. We stay off trails when they are muddy because of the damage that occurs. They enjoy the mud. It's more fun. This kind of talk undermines the more reasonable atv users that have entered this forum. The bottom line? Is there anything more to say? I think not.

[atvguy]

no matter what time of year you ride a trail you will encounter mud. there will always be a spot that holds water and makes mud i have been riding off road since i was knee high to a grass hopper and the only i have never found mud is down on cape cod riding on the sand.(private property so dont scream about it)

[atvguy]

and a muddy trail doesnt mean its a destroyed trail

[off piste]

and a muddy trail doesnt mean its a destroyed trail


Yes, but most of the time, mud + the application of wheels, feet, hooves, etc. can equal displacement of dirt -- erosion. It happens when we ride through puddles on our bikes. It happens when hikers tramp through the muddy trails in spring conditions. I'm sure in your film, an ATV sitting in a mud-filled trail with its throttle held wide open was causing a bit of soil displacement. So, you're partially right -- a muddy trail doesn't mean a destroyed trail. It equals a damaged trail that must be repaired.

[ATV_User]

It equals a damaged trail that must be repaired.


Which is the point of all this. The trails must be repaired, that is exactly point. Aside from the illegal riding, most of you guys are pointing to the state of the trails (can't blame you here). 1-2% of the riding population are trying to do that repair work. That is why the legal ATV trails are the way they are. Be our motivation skills, education issues, whatever, this is the heart of the problem. This is why there are so few trails for ATVs.

I made a statement a lot earlier, and I stand by it. We should not get any more legal ATV trails until we can prove that we can take care of the ones we have.

[slapheadmofo]

IMO any trail that was enjoyed by people as singletrack and is now no longer singletrack is a destroyed trail. Yes bikers can destroy trails through years of heavy inconsiderate use, but there's enough of us out there to keep up with most of the damage we cause. ATV's destroy trails in a ridiculously short time, no matter how considerate the operator, and there aren't enough ATVers concerned with fixing the damage to keep up with it.

As for the 'we paid sales tax so we should be able to change the parks to accomodate us', please go back and refer to my 'bunch of guys in the desert that bought speedboats' analogy.

Mmmm...singletrack...

[TrailBate]

hmm, I see a lot of tire marks off in the grass. Of course, had an ATV done that, it wouldn't be noticeable since ATV's cause less damage than mountain bikes.
Fortunately, I just bought a front-end loader. Registered it and paid my taxes. So i'll just go on over to that trail and ride over it. But I won't damage the trail, I'll just make it wider, fill it with ruts, and pull up some rocks. But it won't be damaged.

[slapheadmofo]

Funny thing about that pic is that it was taken at Sunday River at the end of a heavily used, lift serviced downhill trail that had been in use for years with little or no maintenance. This type of trail arguably takes the most wear and tear of any used regularly by MTBs. What would it look like after a season of ATV use? Something like this I'm guessing. If a trail starts out looking like picture number one, and ends up looking like picture number two, that is what's referred to as 'DAMAGED' or 'DESTROYED'. #1 is a trail, #2 is not.

[Ozzy]

IMO any trail that was enjoyed by people as singletrack and is now no longer singletrack is a destroyed trail. Yes bikers can destroy trails through years of heavy inconsiderate use, but there's enough of us out there to keep up with most of the damage we cause. ATV's destroy trails in a ridiculously short time, no matter how considerate the operator, and there aren't enough ATVers concerned with fixing the damage to keep up with it.

Thats where I have to disagree... For years and years we had trails out behind my house, and there were 3 of us who regularly rode them with absolutely no trail degredation, except for one hill where there was a spring at the top of it... We eventually re-route the trail away from the wet area. About 5 years ago I went for a walk up there and all the trails are still beautiful... Going back even further, about about 18 years ago a bunch of friends and I built a race track and a trail system for atv's and MX bikes, dug up trees, replanted them along the perimeter of the trails, dugh out rocks in the path using shovels, etc... Never once, with HEAVY HEAVY use by about 10 guys did we have a problem keeping that trail walkable, or enjoyable on a bicycle... Over there, we had a trail that went through a marsh, and again, we just stopped using it and rerouted it to stay away from the water, and waa-laa! No mudholes, no rutts, just a nice packed trail that could withstand tons of use and almost no maintenance. Point being again, its more a matter of the terrain than the vehicle thats on it... You go make a Mt.bk. trail in a swamp and see what it looks like in a week..

[Ozzy]

IF you can't find more places to ride, don't buy an ATV. If you didn't know that riding places were few, and that most people don't want ATV's in parks, that's your own fault. Do some research next time. Pool your money, buy your own land, and have fun ripping it up. You don't have the RIGHT to any park, especially when all you do is damage it.


Well, actually since atv's in the woods were far more popular way before the current mountain biking craze, why not just put it the other way:


IF you can't find more places to ride, don't buy a MOUNTAIN BIKE. If you didn't know that riding places were few, and that most people don't want MOUNTAIN BIKES in parks, that's your own fault. Do some research next time. Pool your money, buy your own land, and have fun ripping it up. You don't have the RIGHT to any park, especially when all you do is damage it.

There, that sounds fair :)

[Ozzy]

Ozzy: That vid is a friggin horror show and is a fine example of what happens to multi-use trails when you let quads on it. It doesn't need my comments to make a statement.

My point? Don't blame me, it's YOUR video ! ;D


What you fail to recognize is that trail was probably never usable by mountain bikers to begin with because there's so much water in the area, that is probably also why it was designated as multiuse, as atv's are likey the other user group that could get any enjoyable usage out of it... ATV's do not make water magically appear, for that to happen the terrain must already be located in an area with a nearby water source or nearly saturated soil. Furtermore you apparently felt it DID need you comments, which have been shown to be erroneous, false, and out-right lies... This fact you of course chose not to address.

[Ozzy]

Fortunately, I just bought a front-end loader. Registered it and paid my taxes. So i'll just go on over to that trail and ride over it. But I won't damage the trail, I'll just make it wider, fill it with ruts, and pull up some rocks. But it won't be damaged.


Well, unfortunately for you, I am pretty sure a front end loader weighs just over 1000lbs, so that would be illegal, as opposed to legal, which would be for example... A bike, a motorcycle, a pair of boots, an atv, a horse... You pick... Maybe if you are finding too many trails unusable on a mountain bikes, you should consider an atv, as they can go many place a mountain bike can't and allow you to see parts of nature your bike can't, and its better for your knees too! :P

[slapheadmofo]

IF you can't find more places to ride, don't buy an ATV. If you didn't know that riding places were few, and that most people don't want ATV's in parks, that's your own fault. Do some research next time. Pool your money, buy your own land, and have fun ripping it up. You don't have the RIGHT to any park, especially when all you do is damage it.


IF you can't find more places to ride, don't buy a MOUNTAIN BIKE. If you didn't know that riding places were few, and that most people don't want MOUNTAIN BIKES in parks, that's your own fault. Do some research next time. Pool your money, buy your own land, and have fun ripping it up. You don't have the RIGHT to any park, especially when all you do is damage it.

There, that sounds fair :)



Geat points, though there's one minor thing you forgot to consider in your argument; something most of us refer to as 'REALITY'. The reality is, I gave up on riding dirt bikes in MA and started mountain biking around 15 years ago because I was sick of getting hassled and having nowhere to ride (and all the trails we didn't get chased off of were being widened by ATVs to the point of being boring as hell anyway). The reality is, once I started mountain biking, I had tons of places to ride legally. The reality is, we DID pool our money and buy our own land. The reality is, we've EARNED the rights to areas we didn't have access to before by demonstrating that we're responsible, low impact and willing to work. All reality aside though, I agree with you.

[Ozzy]

Funny thing about that pic is that it was taken at Sunday River at the end of a heavily used, lift serviced downhill trail that had been in use for years with little or no maintenance. This type of trail arguably takes the most wear and tear of any used regularly by MTBs. What would it look like after a season of ATV use? Something like this I'm guessing. If a trail starts out looking like picture number one, and ends up looking like picture number two, that is what's referred to as 'DAMAGED' or 'DESTROYED'. #1 is a trail, #2 is not.


I assume you consider that a usable mt. bk trail, its practically paved... I mean, if you can't ride a bike on that its time to pack it up and call the nursing home. Anyways, I would hardly say its damaged or destroyed, I can think of NO user group that could not EASILY use that trail, I would even go so far to say that its good enough to roll down in a wheelchair. Also, I would have to guess you could drive a million humvee's over that with little noticable change to its usability, theres no dirt to displace, its all stone. So I guess, I don't see your point here.

[off piste]

Fortunately, I just bought a front-end loader. Registered it and paid my taxes. So i'll just go on over to that trail and ride over it. But I won't damage the trail, I'll just make it wider, fill it with ruts, and pull up some rocks. But it won't be damaged.


Well, unfortunately for you, I am pretty sure a front end loader weighs just over 1000lbs, so that would be illegal, as opposed to legal, which would be for example... A bike, a motorcycle, a pair of boots, an atv, a horse... You pick... Maybe if you are finding too many trails unusable on a mountain bikes, you should consider an atv, as they can go many place a mountain bike can't and allow you to see parts of nature your bike can't, and its better for your knees too! :P



Can you go everywhere a person on foot can go? Because, when I need to, I can hike perfectly well with my 26lb bike slung over my sholder. No need to go off into the woods to skirt an obstacle. And, I also telemark ski, so I guess my knees are in pretty good shape.

Mark

[mtbtom]

ATV's do not make water magically appear, for that to happen the terrain must already be located in an area with a nearby water source or nearly saturated soil.


ATVs cause huge ruts in soft saturated soil, which, as shown very clearly in your video, turn into giant mud holes when they get stuck in it.



Furtermore you apparently felt it DID need you comments, which have been shown to be erroneous, false, and out-right lies... This fact you of course chose not to address.


Lying about a trail being destoyed by QUADS ? ...Which is ALREADY CLEARLY ILLUSTRATED in YOUR video ?

The crack smoke is thick 'round here ! ;D

[Ozzy]

Can you go everywhere a person on foot can go? Because, when I need to, I can hike perfectly well with my 26lb bike slung over my sholder. No need to go off into the woods to skirt an obstacle. And, I also telemark ski, so I guess my knees are in pretty good shape.


Well, I know I can easily cover 100+miles in a single day, and i have yet to come to an obstacle I couldn't make my way past, and I know that theirs obstacles I can pass that you cannot, that aside, if its so easy to carry your bike around obstacles, then why complain about a few mud holes... And while your knee's may be fine now, and I hope they remain that way (my grandfather had to have both knees replaced) I would suggest you might begin to have problems with them by the time you hit your sixties if you continue to abuse them. Just a few words of wisdom that may save you a ton of pain later in life.

[slapheadmofo]

Maybe if you are finding too many trails unusable on a mountain bikes, you should consider an atv, as they can go many place a mountain bike can't and allow you to see parts of nature your bike can't, and its better for your knees too! :P


Don't confuse 'unusable' with 'unenjoyable'. Refer to the last pics I posted to see the difference between a fun trail and a lame trail.
When the terrain gets rough, quads can't hack it. The only thing motorized I've seen have any success on really technical terrain are trials motorcycles (I've even ridden in a mixed group with some of those guys in Arcadia and at 'Nam and had a lot of fun) Here a couple examples of what I consider technical terrain. Tell me can ride a quad thru this stuff and I'll call ********.

[slapheadmofo]

.

[off piste]

Can you go everywhere a person on foot can go? Because, when I need to, I can hike perfectly well with my 26lb bike slung over my sholder. No need to go off into the woods to skirt an obstacle. And, I also telemark ski, so I guess my knees are in pretty good shape.


Well, I know I can easily cover 100+miles in a single day, and i have yet to come to an obstacle I couldn't make my way past, and I know that theirs obstacles I can pass that you cannot, that aside, if its so easy to carry your bike around obstacles, then why complain about a few mud holes... And while your knee's may be fine now, and I hope they remain that way (my grandfather had to have both knees replaced) I would suggest you might begin to have problems with them by the time you hit your sixties if you continue to abuse them. Just a few words of wisdom that may save you a ton of pain later in life.


Well, I wouldn't say so much that you're covering the 100+ miles, so much as your machine is covering it, and you're just directing it's course. As far as being able to get over obstacles on your ATV I can't with my bike, I invite you to join me sometime at one of the cliffs I climb. I'll sling my bike over my shoulder and toprope, or maybe even lead a route, and you can attemt the same on your ATV. The loser buys the beer.

As far as the mud holes, we're not complaining about them as an obstacle. We can ride through mud ourselves, it's just bad form to do so, and is why we have a mud season in our sport, to let the trails harden before we head out and cause soil displacement which can damage them.

As far as the knees and your worries, I'd suggest you get off the ATV, seal yourself underground in a lead vault, and not move at all, if you're so worried about "risks". Think of the Carpal's Tunnel problems you're going to have down the road from the repetetive motions of your thumbs as
you cover those 100+ miles.

HTH

Mark

[slapheadmofo]

.

[priss]

you know boys,
it might just be time to give your chests one last big pounding,
and move on.

[slapheadmofo]

I would even go so far to say that its good enough to roll down in a wheelchair. Also, I would have to guess you could drive a million humvee's over that with little noticable change to its usability, theres no dirt to displace, its all stone. So I guess, I don't see your point here.


No, you see, that IS my point. There USED to be dirt there. It wasn't always 8' wide and straight as an arrow. It USED to be a TRAIL, now it's a ROAD. I wish I had a couple pics of what it looks like when you get off the high and dry spots like the one shown and into the low and wet areas. Friggin' brutal. Also, just for the record, that shot is from an area that doesn't allow motorized vehicle access. Big surprise, I'm sure.

When the terrain gets rough, quads can't hack it. The only thing motorized I've seen have any success on really technical terrain are trials motorcycles (I've even ridden in a mixed group with some of those guys in Arcadia and at 'Nam and had a lot of fun)

I thought all motorized use was illegal there, yet you had no problem with this, even had fun? Really.

I'm starting to see a friendlier side of you.

[AA]

Can you go everywhere a person on foot can go? Because, when I need to, I can hike perfectly well with my 26lb bike slung over my sholder. No need to go off into the woods to skirt an obstacle. And, I also telemark ski, so I guess my knees are in pretty good shape.


Well, I know I can easily cover 100+miles in a single day, and i have yet to come to an obstacle I couldn't make my way past, and I know that theirs obstacles I can pass that you cannot, that aside, if its so easy to carry your bike around obstacles, then why complain about a few mud holes... And while your knee's may be fine now, and I hope they remain that way (my grandfather had to have both knees replaced) I would suggest you might begin to have problems with them by the time you hit your sixties if you continue to abuse them. Just a few words of wisdom that may save you a ton of pain later in life.


Hmmm now you are trying to help up mis-guided cyclists with health advice. I may have some cranky knees when I'm old but my heart will be pumping pretty damn strong from all the cycling over the years. Oh by the way there are plenty of folks that can cover 100 miles on their mt bikes in a day (in the woods not on the road). I believe that the arch nemesis of ATV'ers mtbtom has completed a 100 mile race.

[slapheadmofo]

When the terrain gets rough, quads can't hack it. The only thing motorized I've seen have any success on really technical terrain are trials motorcycles (I've even ridden in a mixed group with some of those guys in Arcadia and at 'Nam and had a lot of fun)

I thought all motorized use was illegal there, yet you had no problem with this, even had fun? Really.

I'm starting to see a friendlier side of you.



Actually I'm a really barrel of laughs in person - I just play a dick on the internet. ;D

Not really sure what the rules are at Nam - under the power lines it's mostly rugged dirt road and a lot of big rock formations, and the original trails there were made by MXers for sure. I'm not really so much a stickler for strictly 'legal' as long as singletrack stays skinny and wet sections of other trails don't turn into impassable mud bogs, then get blown out into a muddy wasteland (lot of damage like this the past few years at Nam, mostly 'jeeps' causing it).

Anyway...yeah, I was riding at Arcadia in RI and there are some moto trials groups that have a sweet playground out there. We saw them in the parking lot and starting blah-blahing, and they ended up leading us on a little tour, showed us some really good technical terrain, huge rock faces, drop-offs, all that good stuff. Toughest part about riding with them was they ran a slower pace, as they could hit the throttle to get up over big stuff and we had to keep a little more momentum going. It was funny to see them keep looking back expecting to have to wait for us and we'd be riding our brakes right at their back wheels. Good times.

We mentioned to them they should check out Nam sometime and we'd reciprocate the tour, and ended up hooking up with them there a few months later.

Still, tho, a ton of big differences between a small, light, quiet, low-powered trials bike and a quad. Oh, and to belabor my last point, there was no way a 4 wheeler was gonna have any luck negotiating the terrain we were riding with these guys. Gotta put to rest the idea that ATV's can ride more rugged terrain than bikes; it just ain't that way; no way, no how. Might be better in sand or deep deep mud, but not on the really boney stuff.

[off piste]

<SNIP>
Gotta put to rest the idea that ATV's can ride more rugged terrain than bikes; it just ain't that way; no way, no how. Might be better in sand or deep deep mud, but not on the really boney stuff.


Although, I'll bet the 4x4 ones would be quite good on certain types of rock formations, with a talented rider, at very low speed rock crawling, and such a use would definitly be as "friendly" to the environment as you could get on one of those. Maybe they should be allowed in Purgatory Chasm......

[atvguy]

all i can say is this. if its a multi use trail and motorized traffic is permitted then you have to deal with it. as long as the machines are within park regulations for weight restrictions and noise they are going to be making there. orv's put to much money back into the state through registrations and taxes to get kicked out the parks. so you have to either learn to grow up and co exist or find mtb only trails where you wont find an atv. and if you do find an atv on mtb trail ill bet you 1000.00 dollars that atv is probally unregistered and hasnt paid its sales tax so inform a park ranger and help us get rid of the bad atver's that give the rest of us responsible ones a bad name. the trails dont belong to just you mtber's and nor do they belong to us atver's. atv's do not destroy the trails as bad as you would like to get people to think they do. im not saying they are harmless but they do not do more damage then mother nature can fix herself. and about mud on trails these mountains we ride on are solid rock under all that dirt we travel is solid rock so the water has no where to go but up through the soil so it will make some spot muddy then others and some spot drier then others there is nothing we can do about it except install wash out boards on the trails to prevent the rainwater from rutting out the trails

[off piste]

you know boys,
it might just be time to give your chests one last big pounding,
and move on.


You have a point. We should just drop this dialogue, join hands with our brethren the ATVers, learn to live together, and unite to fight the true threat to all of us --

The guy standing behind you with a gun to your head, forcing you to read all this against your will.

Kumbaya

[off piste]

all i can say is this. if its a multi use trail and motorized traffic is permitted then you have to deal with it. as long as the machines are within park regulations for weight restrictions and noise they are going to be making there. orv's put to much money back into the state through registrations and taxes to get kicked out the parks. so you have to either learn to grow up and co exist or find mtb only trails where you wont find an atv. and if you do find an atv on mtb trail ill bet you 1000.00 dollars that atv is probally unregistered and hasnt paid its sales tax so inform a park ranger and help us get rid of the bad atver's that give the rest of us responsible ones a bad name. the trails dont belong to just you mtber's and nor do they belong to us atver's. atv's do not destroy the trails as bad as you would like to get people to think they do. im not saying they are harmless but they do not do more damage then mother nature can fix herself. and about mud on trails these mountains we ride on are solid rock under all that dirt we travel is solid rock so the water has no where to go but up through the soil so it will make some spot muddy then others and some spot drier then others there is nothing we can do about it except install wash out boards on the trails to prevent the rainwater from rutting out the trails


Well stated.

[atvguy]

off piste my atv has 14 inches of ground clearence and i have brought it over some very boney stuff most of the stuff slaphead showed i can handle with my atv. i have never been to purgatory chasm so i dont know if it could or couldnt. but for the most part they go anywhere a mtb can. there will always be exceptions i know that you know that. obviously i can hop 3 foot tall rocks with my atv but how many mtber's can do that to

[Ozzy]

Here a couple examples of what I consider technical terrain. Tell me can ride a quad thru this stuff and I'll call ********.


Umm, actually that would be no problem for a 4X4 atv such as the one I own... barely a challenge to be honest.

[Ozzy]

Geat points, though there's one minor thing you forgot to consider in your argument; something most of us refer to as 'REALITY'. The reality is, I gave up on riding dirt bikes in MA and started mountain biking around 15 years ago because I was sick of getting hassled and having nowhere to ride (and all the trails we didn't get chased off of were being widened by ATVs to the point of being boring as hell anyway). The reality is, once I started mountain biking, I had tons of places to ride legally. The reality is, we DID pool our money and buy our own land. The reality is, we've EARNED the rights to areas we didn't have access to before by demonstrating that we're responsible, low impact and willing to work. All reality aside though, I agree with you.

Reality _IS_ just in western mass alone there are over 100 miles of ORV trails, Reality is there are places all over the country that offer private atv trails, and reality is we have access to numerous state and federal properties to use our machines, because we've EARNED it.

On the U.S. Forestry Services new OHV policy which regulates all federal forests and parks:

One of the most important elements of the proposed rule is the acknowledgement on the part of the Forest Service that motorized recreation is a legitimate use of public lands. As the supplementary information states, “motor vehicle use is an appropriate way to recreate in the National Forests, access hunting and fishing opportunities, sightsee, and otherwise enjoy recreational experiences on National Forest Service land.” It also goes on to say that OHV use is a growing and important recreational activity on National Forest System lands.

Not only are we winning the war in the state of massachusetts, we have great support at the federal level as well!!! Such good news!

Hoping that with all of the _reality_ sitting sqaure in your face you continue to agree. ;D

[Ozzy]

Lying about a trail being destoyed by QUADS ? ...Which is ALREADY CLEARLY ILLUSTRATED in YOUR video ?

The crack smoke is thick 'round here ! ;D


Humm

Destroy
Verb
1. Do away with, cause the destruction or undoing of; "The fire destroyed the house".

2. Destroy completely; damage irreparably; "You have ruined my car by pouring sugar in the tank!"; "The tears ruined her make-up".

Pretty sure a trail in use CANNOT meet the terms of the definition of destroy, not sure what you're smoking but it must be good.

[slapheadmofo]

********! ;D

I think if you saw those spots in person, you might change your mind. I could be wrong, though, so post up some pics! Let's see what you got. I was pretty limited with what I had to choose from here at work; I'll have to dig a little deeper into the archives over some beers later on.

Maybe we should have an ATV vs MTB Battle of the Cattle / flaming race to the death somewhere. Multiple courses, different disciplines, gallons of beer, etc.

I'd say hopping onto and over logs and rocks starts getting tricky around 30" or so, specially if they're really square edged, but I know guys that are much better riders than me and have no problem with 3 footers. Bastards.

[Ozzy]

Well, I wouldn't say so much that you're covering the 100+ miles, so much as your machine is covering it, and you're just directing it's course. As far as being able to get over obstacles on your ATV I can't with my bike, I invite you to join me sometime at one of the cliffs I climb. I'll sling my bike over my shoulder and toprope, or maybe even lead a route, and you can attemt the same on your ATV. The loser buys the beer.


Lol, ever heard of a winch, Anyways... i would rather ride for the day... If I wanted to go rock climbing, then I would go rock climbing, especially considering that rock climbing alone is a pretty silly idea when it comes to safety... Even beyond that, I've been climbing a couple of times and never found it all that enjoyable to be honest, repelling is fun, thats about it, so it would never be something I was interested in anyways... ANd around here I've never personally seen a cliff face that there wasn't another way to the top of.
Oh, and btw, riding an atv is not 'quite' the same as driving a car, it actually requires the use of your entire body constantly, and constant concentration and good decision making... None of the above my 5 year can do in conjuction with each other simultaneously in a safe enough manner to ride an atv... However, she is pretty damn good on that bike of her, its like childs play to her ;)


As far as the mud holes, we're not complaining about them as an obstacle. We can ride through mud ourselves, it's just bad form to do so, and is why we have a mud season in our sport, to let the trails harden before we head out and cause soil displacement which can damage them.

My gosh soil displacement, what next... Hurry, we MUST save the soil from displacement!!! :P


As far as the knees and your worries, I'd suggest you get off the ATV, seal yourself underground in a lead vault, and not move at all, if you're so worried about "risks". Think of the Carpal's Tunnel problems you're going to have down the road from the repetetive motions of your thumbs as you cover those 100+ miles.


Touche'.

[Ozzy]

No, you see, that IS my point. There USED to be dirt there. It wasn't always 8' wide and straight as an arrow. It USED to be a TRAIL, now it's a ROAD. I wish I had a couple pics of what it looks like when you get off the high and dry spots like the one shown and into the low and wet areas. Friggin' brutal. Also, just for the record, that shot is from an area that doesn't allow motorized vehicle access. Big surprise, I'm sure.


Well, I didn't see any evidence of atv use there for starters, secondly, i have never seen an atv take a trail down to stone like that, i would have to assume thats just an area full of ledge and such... Otherwise I would guess all havily used atv trails would be down to stone such as that one... Or wait, thats a Mt. Bk. trail, so.. uhh, okay, you lost me.

[off piste]

Lol, ever heard of a winch, Anyways... i would rather ride for the day... If I wanted to go rock climbing, then I would go rock climbing, especially considering that rock climbing alone is a pretty silly idea when it comes to safety... Even beyond that, I've been climbing a couple of times and never found it all that enjoyable to be honest, repelling is fun, thats about it, so it would never be something I was interested in anyways... ANd around here I've never personally seen a cliff face that there wasn't another way to the top of.



Well, yeah. You're already letting the machine do all the work on getting you around in those 100+ miles , so you might as well use a winch as well. I'd pay REAL good money, btw, to see you winch yourself up a multipitch route, say on Cannon Cliff. You missed the point a bit, though. I was responding to your statement that ATV's could get to places that bikes couldn't That's a premise I find strange dut to the fact I don't believe ATV's can get to all places a person on foot could. There's very few places someone couldn't get to with a bike that they could get to on foot, and we have many trails with "hike a bike" sections. Rock climbing was just an extreme example.

Your comment about always being able to find a way around a crag is a little disturbing, though. I was under the impression you're one of the good guys -- one of the folks who plays by the rules, so I'm really hoping I'm just misinterpreting what you're saying, Ozzy. I probably am, so fire away.

What it sounds like to me is that you're saying that you've blazed around objects, like cliff faces, to find an easier line up them. This would suggest going off a marked trail to avoid an object you couldn't otherwise surmount. I'm wrong, right?



Oh, and btw, riding an atv is not 'quite' the same as driving a car, it actually requires the use of your entire body constantly, and constant concentration and good decision making... None of the above my 5 year can do in conjuction with each other simultaneously in a safe enough manner to ride an atv... However, she is pretty damn good on that bike of her, its like childs play to her ;)


Well, using your example, you might want to talk to a Formula One driver about how easy driving a car is! I'm not sure your example of your daughter on her bike translates, though. Are you talking about her riding her bike, with or without training wheels, and in what setting? In your driveway? On her bike, she's doing something quite a bit more natural than operating a complicated, artificial conveyance like an ATV. On the bike, she probably doesn't even need the understanding of mechanical brakes for the stuff she's riding -- just letting the bike slowly coast down is enough. If I'm wrong, and she's riding singeltrack, jumping 12" logs, going through a technical rock garden full of baby heads, and hucking off small drops, please forgive me. On your ATV, she probably doesn't have the cognitive development yet to connect the manipulation on the small thumb throttle with the generation of the machine's relativly large horsepower and it's acceleration. I hope you haven't actually put her in the driver's seat to be able to back up your assertation. I know I wouldn't put her on one of our trails on her bike for fear of being arrested for child abuse.



As far as the mud holes, we're not complaining about them as an obstacle. We can ride through mud ourselves, it's just bad form to do so, and is why we have a mud season in our sport, to let the trails harden before we head out and cause soil displacement which can damage them.



My gosh soil displacement, what next... Hurry, we MUST save the soil from displacement!!! :P


Again, Ozzy, I'm worried. It looks like you're laughing at trail erosion like it's a big joke. Certainly not looking like the responsible, caring Ozzy that started posting here. I know I'm wrong, though. I'm just not reading you the right way. That pesky written word stuff.




As far as the knees and your worries, I'd suggest you get off the ATV, seal yourself underground in a lead vault, and not move at all, if you're so worried about "risks". Think of the Carpal's Tunnel problems you're going to have down the road from the repetetive motions of your thumbs as you cover those 100+ miles.



Touche'.

[atvguy]

75 percent of all trail erosion is caused by mother nature. anytime a trail is created it is subjected to erosion because it is cleared of trees,shrubs,brush who's roots hold the soil in place. kill the plants that have good roots theres nothing to hold soil in place. and no matter if its an atv trail or mtb or hiking trail it is still a cleared path that is devoid of roots to hold soil in place so when it rains that rainfall will washout a trail and low spots along the trail will hold water and create mud.

[Slider]

you have to either learn to grow up and co exist or find mtb only trails where you wont find an atv


You're missing something pretty basic here. We don't have to accept trail rape, regardless of whether we "grow up" or not. We can, for example, fight you politically every chance we get. On the other hand, we could support you, having seen that you as a group take care of the trail destruction that you cause. So far, we haven't seen the latter.

You see, the problem is yours even more than it is ours. You have no NEMBA. You have nothing close to the political cohesiveness we have. Your industry's political lobbying relies on the manufacturers, but you are much less well represented at the grass roots level, where trails are made and kept accessible. ATV consumers are not nearly the "joiners" that bike riders are. Bike riders give a ****.

Until you can get ATV riders, as a group, to give a ****, you have no future. We can only hope you don't **** up all the trails in the meanwhile.

Slider

[digger]

Atv_guy, your last sounded like any and every trail with no exception is over time likely to suffer from erosion. My experience is that this is not the case for many of the newer singletrack trails that NEMBA people have built for shared non-motorized use. By building in good drainage and maintaining the trail to avoid natural erosion it is not a problem to have a trail 2, 5, or 10 years old or more that looks like the day it was cut.

Add machines that can do almost any fall line and can channelize even a well designed trail or forest road into a stream bed with little hope for repair and you are talking inevitable erosion, unless some heroics are undertaken to restore and correct the natural drainage.

Our trail maintenance is geared toward maintaining good trail design features, tread outslope, drainage structures, and sustainable trail use, rather than repairs to damaged trail sections. If sections are unsustainable, a common remedy is to reroute that section using good trail design practice, the result normally is a trail that requires little maintenance.

I think this is a possible direction for motorized users to improve their image and their trails - understand good trail design features and collectively work toward more sustainable trails for ORVs.

Take a look at the IMBA site for more about sustainable trail design. Reads about the same as AMC and NFS.

[biffster]

They won't be screwing up any more trails if the public has anything to say about it.

Every post you guys put up here shows how narrow minded and ignorant you are of the damage you do and the hatred the public has for you. Every post fuels my fire to do my part and stop you guys from getting any trail areas in Connecticut.

That video was hideous; and to somehow justify what you are doing is absurd at best.

I have seen first hand the destruction you guys have caused. To come on here and say renegage ATV use by the 1%'ers is not your problem is just stupid.

I really liked your 75% erosion comment. Care to back up your statement with some references of where you got that info?

And BTW, I'm still waiting for you to post the trail maintence pics and footage you promised us.

[EVIL BOTA]

Actually I'm a really barrel of laughs in person - I just play a dick on the internet. ;D



I can't wait to hang with ya.. You like to drink BEER as much as I do!..lmao!

[Ozzy]

********! ;D

I think if you saw those spots in person, you might change your mind. I could be wrong, though, so post up some pics! Let's see what you got. I was pretty limited with what I had to choose from here at work; I'll have to dig a little deeper into the archives over some beers later on.

Maybe we should have an ATV vs MTB Battle of the Cattle / flaming race to the death somewhere. Multiple courses, different disciplines, gallons of beer, etc.

I'd say hopping onto and over logs and rocks starts getting tricky around 30" or so, specially if they're really square edged, but I know guys that are much better riders than me and have no problem with 3 footers. Bastards.


Look, there are things you cannot do _ON_ your mountain bike that we can, and there are things _ON_ our atv that we cannot do that you CAN, this is just silly... They are obviuously different machines with different pro and cons... In general it is safe to say then can both go some pretty rough places, and we all find it enjoyable and challenging... Its my fault for even responding to this he said she said and I apologize, its just silly. That said, an atv -vs- mt. bk. race as you mentioned could be fun for all involved, and actually give all of us an opportunity to socialize in person and probably find out the opposite side is not all a bunch of evil people looking to destroy each others rights or trails.

[Ozzy]

I was responding to your statement that ATV's could get to places that bikes couldn't That's a premise I find strange dut to the fact I don't believe ATV's can get to all places a person on foot could. There's very few places someone couldn't get to with a bike that they could get to on foot, and we have many trails with "hike a bike" sections. Rock climbing was just an extreme example.

I cannot argue with that... I guess my point was there are very few places that an atv can't go, and you're right, it would not be a lot of fun winching myself about.


Your comment about always being able to find a way around a crag is a little disturbing, though. I was under the impression you're one of the good guys -- one of the folks who plays by the rules, so I'm really hoping I'm just misinterpreting what you're saying, Ozzy. I probably am, so fire away.


You're right, to be perfectly honest with you this is the first time I've owned an atv in about 10 years... Back then almost all of the riding I did was on private property, or on city/state land, and as I recall there was no problem riding on said land back then (or if there was our government offficials did a pretty crappy job of getting the word out. SO anyways, in those situations if I had to get around something, its not like I was in the state forest, in fact back then I had a hand in making many of the trails that I rode on, so such obstacles weren't an issue to begin with. Furthermore, its safe to say that on any trail in a State forest you're not gonna find stuff like that you need to get around sitting in the middle of a trail, so that's a non-issue as well... I was saying in theory I could easily get around stuff llike that, but i would also point out again, that the only time you come across stuff like that you'd be off a trail to begin with, which is no fun on a 4X4, as you have to move along at quite a crawl. One obstacle you might come across is a fallen tree, and I will tell you that in the past rather than go around I have stopped and taken the time to move it, or head out the next time with a chainsaw to clear the trail if need be.


What it sounds like to me is that you're saying that you've blazed around objects, like cliff faces, to find an easier line up them. This would suggest going off a marked trail to avoid an object you couldn't otherwise surmount. I'm wrong, right?


Yes of course, except for when I was 12 years old, and even then I am honestly having trouble remembering doing anything of the sort, again, most trails atv's ride on (in my experience) aren't routed to go straight up the side of a cliff face or straight over a 4 foot tall boulder, most trails would be made from the get go to go around such obstacles.

Another point I would like to make is what has changed in the past decade+... I am shocked at how much restriction has been put on atv use in said time, and angry about it to be honest. I assume this came about as a _green_ issue or something of the sort, or as a result of a very small prtion of the population complaining about noise from 2 strokers.. I think maybe once in my life have I come across a mt.bker on the trails I used to ride (in that instance a trail _I_ helped make for my atv). I think IMHO that if all that land was opened back up to us that first of all you would find less wear and tear at the state forests, a lot less of the yahoo's on _YOUR_ trails, and in general, your group and mine would be a lot happier. Not sure exactly who this hurts or why, except for the 80 year old locked up in her house who hears the occasional MX bike go through the trail behind her house and has nothing better to do than call and make a noise complaint regarding the horrible sound that disturbed her peace for all of ten seconds.



Well, using your example, you might want to talk to a Formula One driver about how easy driving a car is!

Well, actually, my brother is a driver at Lebanon valley sppedway... He drives a big block modified that reaches well over 150mph on the back stretch. I can tell you that it is pretty rough in those cars... to the point that if the car is not set up right your arms will barely have enough strenght to let you steer them through the corners for more than 5 laps.... With a good set-up most drivers are still getting a hell of a work out through the 30 lap feature... This compaison between atv's and cars is better than that of just guiding an atv. I felt like you were implying there's no work involved in riding an atv, which is entirely false.



I'm not sure your example of your daughter on her bike translates, though. Are you talking about her riding her bike, with or without training wheels, and in what setting? In your driveway? On her bike, she's doing something quite a bit more natural than operating a complicated, artificial conveyance like an ATV. On the bike, she probably doesn't even need the understanding of mechanical brakes for the stuff she's riding -- just letting the bike slowly coast down is enough. If I'm wrong, and she's riding singeltrack, jumping 12" logs, going through a technical rock garden full of baby heads, and hucking off small drops, please forgive me. On your ATV, she probably doesn't have the cognitive development yet to connect the manipulation on the small thumb throttle with the generation of the machine's relativly large horsepower and it's acceleration. I hope you haven't actually put her in the driver's seat to be able to back up your assertation. I know I wouldn't put her on one of our trails on her bike for fear of being arrested for child abuse.

Correct... again, I felt like you were making the point that theirs no skill or physical ability invoilved with the use of an atv... I made my comparison involving my daughter to put the shoe on the other foot so to speak... So you could maybe better understand how ludicrous your intial statement came across to me. I think, or at least hope we now both understand that skill, strenght, and care towards saftey are required on both machines!


My gosh soil displacement, what next... Hurry, we MUST save the soil from displacement!!! :P



Again, Ozzy, I'm worried. It looks like you're laughing at trail erosion like it's a big joke. Certainly not looking like the responsible, caring Ozzy that started posting here. I know I'm wrong, though. I'm just not reading you the right way. That pesky written word stuff.

To be honest, I would rather ride on a trail with one or two mudholes, not twenty. I think they are an issue that needs to be addressed and dealt with in the best way possible with the tools and resources at hand. Sometimes I take offense to political correctness as it is all to abound in our society, i guess i would have felt better if you just said slinging mud around or 'digging ruts', as in those situations thats what it is, but its something that cannot be avoided on an atv if the soil conditions are such. NETRA does bring a huge amount of volunteers to the trails for such purposes as fixing those problems, but because of such heavy use, they cannot keep up with is.. If you guys are finding multiuse trails that are not enjoyable to use for you, and you would like to see it otherwise, jump in and give a hand... I know you do a great job with your single-tracks, so why not help us put the other trails ina more usable condition for you... Yes, I know you didn't created the mudholes, but you don't want them there, so rather than complain, help fix 'em... I will personally meet with you guys to do work on your trails if you wanna meet with me to do work on ours, which in turn could make our trails that much better for you. I cannot speak for others in my community, but _I_ am putting that out there.... Truth be told, i get nothing out of maintaining your trails, but i will with no qualms if you wanna come help maintain ours, which _DOES_ have a benefit for you... more usable trails for your sport. Five pages ago I suggested we try towork together rather than against each other, and here is a perfect way to do that. Not only could we better maintain the trails, but we could get a much better group to group dialogue going.

[Ozzy]

Our trail maintenance is geared toward maintaining good trail design features, tread outslope, drainage structures, and sustainable trail use, rather than repairs to damaged trail sections. If sections are unsustainable, a common remedy is to reroute that section using good trail design practice, the result normally is a trail that requires little maintenance.

I think this is a possible direction for motorized users to improve their image and their trails - understand good trail design features and collectively work toward more sustainable trails for ORVs.

Take a look at the IMBA site for more about sustainable trail design. Reads about the same as AMC and NFS.


Thanks for the info first of all, secondly I fully agree. Part of the problem we are dealing with here is we are riding on 30 year old trails that were never designed with any of the afore mentioned in mind. As I have previously stated I have never had a trail I made erode like such, I always did my best to avoid wet terrain, and whenever possible went threw the rouble of transplanting any sapling in the trail path to the edge of the trails.... These two simple things have proven in my experience to be enough to keep trails in pretty awesome shape after years of abuse... with little or no maintenance at all! There are also a lot of other things that can be done, but thruth be told, if the trails in the wrong area (eg wet terrain) you're fighting a losing battle. I would very much support rerouting trails wherever possible to avoid this stuff, and where not possible, putting in place all available counter-measures... which in some cases short of bringing in pea stone and fill theres not enough that can be done.

[Ozzy]

And BTW, I'm still waiting for you to post the trail maintence pics and footage you promised us.



No video, but here's the official take on it:

In 2004, off-road motorcyclists and ATV riders performed 2,826 man-hours of volunteer trail maintenance in seven Massachusetts state forests under contract with the Department of Conservation and Recreation. This is a record level of documented trail work since the Massachusetts MOA program began in 1996, and an eight per cent increase in the amount of volunteer work performed in comparison with the previous year.


Now, lets see your 2800 man-hours of trail mainenance. Oh, thats right, I believe last year you actually had less that _HALF_ the documented trail maintenance that atv and MX groups have... Time to move out of that glass house.

[slapheadmofo]

uhh, okay, you lost me.


Likewise ???
Story of my life...

[slapheadmofo]

Look, there are things you cannot do _ON_ your mountain bike that we can, and there are things _ON_ our atv that we cannot do that you CAN, this is just silly... They are obviuously different machines with different pro and cons... In general it is safe to say then can both go some pretty rough places, and we all find it enjoyable and challenging...
Fair enough, I'll agree with you there. A lot of people that aren't all that familiar with mtbing might picture it a like what you see in a Centrum Silver commercial, some manicured little path thru a park, clean smily spandexed people wheeling along...I kinda wanted to show you that we can get out on some pretty technical terrain. That first one was from Sunday River, who used to have lift serviced downhill riding.


... That said, an atv -vs- mt. bk. race as you mentioned could be fun for all involved, and actually give all of us an opportunity to socialize in person and probably find out the opposite side is not all a bunch of evil people looking to destroy each others rights or trails.


Since when isn't Ozzy evil?
Anyway, time for a little wrench session and I'm off to Leo for a spin. 4:00, regular lot. ;D

[nhiker]

And BTW, I'm still waiting for you to post the trail maintence pics and footage you promised us.



No video, but here's the official take on it:

In 2004, off-road motorcyclists and ATV riders performed 2,826 man-hours of volunteer trail maintenance in seven Massachusetts state forests under contract with the Department of Conservation and Recreation. This is a record level of documented trail work since the Massachusetts MOA program began in 1996, and an eight per cent increase in the amount of volunteer work performed in comparison with the previous year.


Now, lets see your 2800 man-hours of trail mainenance. Oh, thats right, I believe last year you actually had less that _HALF_ the documented trail maintenance that atv and MX groups have... Time to move out of that glass house.
No issue with what your saying here Ozzy if it is reputable and factual. But I doubt those numbers...Can you give me a source? I am very involved in the trail work in my area and I think Nemba alone had more hours than that last season. Never mind IMBA and all its associated organisations. I really doubt you guys have an accurate assesment of our trail work hours logged.

The number of documented hours comes directly from the DCR. They keep track of the work performed.

[Ozzy]

Since when isn't Ozzy evil?
Anyway, time for a little wrench session and I'm off to Leo for a spin. 4:00, regular lot. ;D

Maybe a little schizophrenic, not evil though ;)

[Ozzy]

In 2004, off-road motorcyclists and ATV riders performed 2,826 man-hours of volunteer trail maintenance in seven Massachusetts state forests under contract with the Department of Conservation and Recreation. This is a record level of documented trail work since the Massachusetts MOA program began in 1996, and an eight per cent increase in the amount of volunteer work performed in comparison with the previous year.


Now, lets see your 2800 man-hours of trail mainenance. Oh, thats right, I believe last year you actually had less that _HALF_ the documented trail maintenance that atv and MX groups have... Time to move out of that glass house.

No issue with what your saying here Ozzy if it is reputable and factual. But I doubt those numbers...Can you give me a source? I am very involved in the trail work in my area and I think Nemba alone had more hours than that last season. Never mind IMBA and all its associated organisations. I really doubt you guys have an accurate assesment of our trail work hours logged.


You trail work hours were for the ENTIRE NEMBA org, not just Massachusetts, and that figure is off your officialk NEMBA website. NETRA's number can be found at http://www.netra.org/news/currentevents.htm I actually hadn't even read this whole article, but just scanned down to see that:

In western Massachusetts, the Berkshire Trails Council performed 2166 man-hours volunteer trail work under contract with the DEM in five state forests, a 26 per cent increase over the previous year.. The BTC is composed of the New England Trail Rider Assn (NETRA), WestMass ATV, NEATV, and local NETRA clubs.

So, at the very least I am happy that the majority of trail work is being done in my area, by people from my area.

Anyways, I think those are pretty reputable sources, hope you agree.

[nhiker]

In 2004, off-road motorcyclists and ATV riders performed 2,826 man-hours of volunteer trail maintenance in seven Massachusetts state forests under contract with the Department of Conservation and Recreation. This is a record level of documented trail work since the Massachusetts MOA program began in 1996, and an eight per cent increase in the amount of volunteer work performed in comparison with the previous year.


Now, lets see your 2800 man-hours of trail mainenance. Oh, thats right, I believe last year you actually had less that _HALF_ the documented trail maintenance that atv and MX groups have... Time to move out of that glass house.

No issue with what your saying here Ozzy if it is reputable and factual. But I doubt those numbers...Can you give me a source? I am very involved in the trail work in my area and I think Nemba alone had more hours than that last season. Never mind IMBA and all its associated organisations. I really doubt you guys have an accurate assesment of our trail work hours logged.


You trail work hours were for the ENTIRE NEMBA org, not just Massachusetts, and that figure is off your officialk NEMBA website. NETRA's number can be found at http://www.netra.org/news/currentevents.htm I actually hadn't even read this whole article, but just scanned down to see that:

In western Massachusetts, the Berkshire Trails Council performed 2166 man-hours volunteer trail work under contract with the DEM in five state forests, a 26 per cent increase over the previous year.. The BTC is composed of the New England Trail Rider Assn (NETRA), WestMass ATV, NEATV, and local NETRA clubs.

So, at the very least I am happy that the majority of trail work is being done in my area, by people from my area.

Anyways, I think those are pretty reputable sources, hope you agree.


Ahhh, ok I have no problem with your Netra numbers I won't debate reputability. But as far as Nemba hours I am not finding a total for last year listed on our sight. I am finding that Ct alone posted 1600 hrs last year and that doesn't include the rest of NewEngland I can tell you my little chapter in So NH posted alittle over 400 hrs. I will contact our board and get a true number. unless you want to show me the source you have for what was it? "half of your 2600 hrs." So far for one state and one chapter I have 2000 hrs lets see what the true numbers are shall we. Maybe you could help me by giving a specific link to the NEMBA data you found on our site. That would be helpful seeing you already looked this up yes?

All nonsense aside I am impressed with those Netra numbers that is a lot more than I would have expected to be honest. I cant say that I have seen much of that up here in NH. must be much stronger in Mass hope it spreads up to the trails you folks frequent up here.

Out of Curiousity Ozzy and Henry are you both active in trail work? If you preach you need to lead also....wouldn't you agree?

Out of Curiousity Ozzy and Henry are you both active in trail work? If you preach you need to lead also....wouldn't you agree?


Yes, I do agree. And yes, I do participate with work parties for more than one club. And I do my best on the education part with other riders.

[biffster]

I agree NETRA does a lot of work, but they are motorcycle people. They are not affiliated with ATV's. I find it funny you are adding their trail work into YOUR arguement.Let's see the total from ATV users. I bet it's small.

I've been viewing some of the ATV forums. I see tons of topics like, "How to evade the DEP, how to ride in illegal areas and not get caught, and basic discussions about how you have no place to ride". I have not seen any topics or posts for trail work except one. Somebody posted about a trail day and I think one person said they were coming. Pretty lame.

Went for a bicycle road ride today after a hike this morning to clear some blow downs on a local trail. Crossed a few powerlines on the road and what did I see??..Quads! Tons of them. I also saw a rutted trail over 8" deep as far as I could see (1/4 mile). Entrance to the trail stated in big letters, "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES".

Truth is that today I can't take a hike on local trails without seeing massive destruction from ATVs. Truthfully, it really pisses me off that you have no respect for public and private property. As far as I'm concerned you don't deserve any place to ride. You haven't earned it.

[nhiker]

Out of Curiousity Ozzy and Henry are you both active in trail work? If you preach you need to lead also....wouldn't you agree?


Yes, I do agree. And yes, I do participate with work parties for more than one club. And I do my best on the education part with other riders.


Excellent! Same here! Itry to walk the walk...not just talk the talkalso. I beleive that the fate of either sport lies in those who understand the rules educating all others. While I am not now a fan of what I have seen ATV's do in my "experiance" I hope that you can work to change your fellow users. I don't think most mountainbikers are your adversaries...We are just fearful about what we see.

I will say however that I still think Ozzy is pulling numbers out of his ear. Ican't find the supporting data for Nembas work hours on this site so I have written to our director to get this imfomation. I will get back to you folks either way...

oh well have fun an don'tget hurt riding
Harry

I agree NETRA does a lot of work, but they are motorcycle people. They are not affiliated with ATV's. I find it funny you are adding their trail work into YOUR arguement.Let's see the total from ATV users. I bet it's small.

Actually, this is very incorrect. NETRA has been very involved in atv issues for a long time now. Not just in Mass but through out New England and New York. And a second thing - review the hours from the DCR for Western Mass. MORE THAN HALF the hours were actually performed by non-NETRA clubs.

The atv clubs and NETRA have been working together for quite a while now. I find it funny that don't get your facts correct before spouting off.

oh well have fun an don'tget hurt riding

Thanks Nhiker. In the end, isn't having fun what it's all about?

[Ozzy]

Ahhh, ok I have no problem with your Netra numbers I won't debate reputability. But as far as Nemba hours I am not finding a total for last year listed on our sight. I am finding that Ct alone posted 1600 hrs last year and that doesn't include the rest of NewEngland I can tell you my little chapter in So NH posted alittle over 400 hrs. I will contact our board and get a true number. unless you want to show me the source you have for what was it? "half of your 2600 hrs." So far for one state and one chapter I have 2000 hrs lets see what the true numbers are shall we. Maybe you could help me by giving a specific link to the NEMBA data you found on our site. That would be helpful seeing you already looked this up yes?

To be honest I cannot find the info again... I remember it was buried pretty deep, so I tried to look it up on the Mass DCR site with no luck, if anyone knows where to find this info on that site please help out...



Out of Curiousity Ozzy and Henry are you both active in trail work? If you preach you need to lead also....wouldn't you agree?


This is my first season back in the sport in many years, so as of yet I have not attended any work parties. Our first work party is sceduled mid may and I will be there... Also made a donation to the fund and plan on making more when I can free up some extra loot. I will attend _ALL_ work parties my club has scheduled, and I totally agree that one cannot preach without leading... I am personally looking forward to getting as involved and as educated as possible on this matter, to the point I'll be checking out some of the resources you guys have on your page concerning trail construction and maintenance, seems like you've got a bunch of good stuff on there, hope you don't mind if I steal some for my own use during upcoming work parties! In my opinion we really have to rally the troops, the trails we are on are sooooo over used and stressed because of that we really need to get as many new people into the clubs and at work parties as possible... I know we've alreeady got some new recruits for the season and I will be working hard on my own time to bolster those numbers, as I've got some considerable resources at my disposal in the atv/MX arena... just hoping I can make a real positive change in the next couple of years!

[Ozzy]

I agree NETRA does a lot of work, but they are motorcycle people. They are not affiliated with ATV's. I find it funny you are adding their trail work into YOUR arguement.Let's see the total from ATV users. I bet it's small.

Actually, I should have used the term Berkshire trail council to be correct. BTC consist of netra groups, and specifically western mass atv and NEATV, both atv clubs... Also, one of the larger netra(MX) groups in our area, the Greylock riders, is now all but defunct. so it has been for the past 2 or 3 years by and large the atv clubs picking up the slack for the MX guys, specifically in Savoy state forest... I have no figures breaking down how many man hours are from MX guys, and how many from atv guys, but thats besides the point, you sit claiming we do nothing and your proven wrong, so... you're wrong, just move on.



I've been viewing some of the ATV forums. I see tons of topics like, "How to evade the DEP, how to ride in illegal areas and not get caught, and basic discussions about how you have no place to ride". I have not seen any topics or posts for trail work except one. Somebody posted about a trail day and I think one person said they were coming. Pretty lame.

You'll find none of this how to ride illegal **** on the site I'm a member of, in my opinion that kind of **** outta be deleted off the board as soon as its posted.


Went for a bicycle road ride today after a hike this morning to clear some blow downs on a local trail. Crossed a few powerlines on the road and what did I see??..Quads! Tons of them. I also saw a rutted trail over 8" deep as far as I could see (1/4 mile). Entrance to the trail stated in big letters, "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES".

Actually, funny you mention that... I was riding at a friends family farm just on this past saturday, and came across a bunch of mt.bk tracks... Oddly, about every 100ft on the trail is a POSTED sign... go figure..


Truth is that today I can't take a hike on local trails without seeing massive destruction from ATVs. Truthfully, it really pisses me off that you have no respect for public and private property. As far as I'm concerned you don't deserve any place to ride. You haven't earned it.


See above in reference to private property... Looks the the shoes on the other foot.

[Goldstar78i]

You know its a pretty standard thing that people do. Even if its posted, people will go there if no one stops them. Be it hikers, mtbers, atvers, mxers, horses, anyone. Its a rare person that pays attention to EVERY sign.

There are instances when going off the beaten path onto someone elses land seems permissable. Sometimes if there is a way around an unpassable landmark, a neat site to see, anything innocent like that. These things seem OK to me. Not everyone will agree with that. I feel strongly that the line has to be drawn when you are somehow damaging their land/invading too close to peoples houses.

And of course, if anyone ever tells you to get off their property, you should apologize and not return.

[biffster]

Truth is that today I can't take a hike on local trails without seeing massive destruction from ATVs. Truthfully, it really pisses me off that you have no respect for public and private property. As far as I'm concerned you don't deserve any place to ride. You haven't earned it.


See above in reference to private property... Looks the the shoes on the other foot.

I would like to see some photos of this. You guys claim all sorts of stuff with no proof. Let's see some.....


I agree NETRA does a lot of work, but they are motorcycle people. They are not affiliated with ATV's. I find it funny you are adding their trail work into YOUR arguement.Let's see the total from ATV users. I bet it's small.

Actually, I should have used the term Berkshire trail council to be correct. BTC consist of netra groups, and specifically western mass atv and NEATV, both atv clubs... Also, one of the larger netra(MX) groups in our area, the Greylock riders, is now all but defunct. so it has been for the past 2 or 3 years by and large the atv clubs picking up the slack for the MX guys, specifically in Savoy state forest... I have no figures breaking down how many man hours are from MX guys, and how many from atv guys, but thats besides the point, you sit claiming we do nothing and your proven wrong, so... you're wrong, just move on.


NETRA is a motorcycle trail group. They put on no ATV events I am aware of. Most of their trail work is to support enduros and hare scrambles.

So you've been taking up the slack in Savoy? Is the video proof of the slack you're taking up? Doesn''t look like you guys have done anything to IMPROVE the trails there. Quite the opposite.

Stop riding on the backs of the NETRA guys and tagging what they are doing as yours. Like I stated earlier, there are no topics or posts anywhere about trail work on your ATV sites. You are more focused on outrunning the cops and finding illegal places to ride instead of trying to improve your image.

[Ozzy]

There are instances when going off the beaten path onto someone elses land seems permissable. Sometimes if there is a way around an unpassable landmark, a neat site to see, anything innocent like that. These things seem OK to me. Not everyone will agree with that. I feel strongly that the line has to be drawn when you are somehow damaging their land/invading too close to peoples houses.

And of course, if anyone ever tells you to get off their property, you should apologize and not return.


I think the line needs to be drawn when there are a bunch of bright yellow signs that say _NO TRESPASSING_. Aside from standing at every corner of your 80 acre property, I'm not sure how else you say _GET OFF MY PROPERTY_

[Ozzy]

I would like to see some photos of this. You guys claim all sorts of stuff with no proof. Let's see some.....

I am not taking my time to go riding to take pictures of Mt. Bk tracks, if you don't believe, too bad.


NETRA is a motorcycle trail group. They put on no ATV events I am aware of. Most of their trail work is to support enduros and hare scrambles.
So you've been taking up the slack in Savoy?
Stop riding on the backs of the NETRA guys and tagging what they are doing as yours. Like I stated earlier, there are no topics or posts anywhere about trail work on your ATV sites. You are more focused on outrunning the cops and finding illegal places to ride instead of trying to improve your image.

Go back and re-read my last reply, I corrected my statement and said I should have used the term BERSHIRE TRAILS COUNCIL instead of NETRA. BTC consists of many groups, one being netra, and in addiotion _SEVERAL_ atv clubs... Everything you just wrote implies you did not even read my last post or it went in one ear and out the other. Your obviously just trying to take out your anger on someone no matter what they say, and no matter if you're wrong... There's no point in me responding to you anymore, if I claimed the earth orbits the sun you would obviously question that as well.

[MissJean]

See above in reference to private property... Looks the the shoes on the other foot.

I would like to see some photos of this. You guys claim all sorts of stuff with no proof. Let's see some.....

Not private property but just as bad.
This was taken last year at South West park in Nashua NH.
There were signs at the park entrances stating no motorized vehicles, but most of them have been torn down.
The day I took these, there were both atvs and a small 4 wheel drive Toyota (?) riding around. The photos show tracks that go right up a stream bed.

[MissJean]

More...

[MissJean]

more

[nhiker]

Ahhh, ok I have no problem with your Netra numbers I won't debate reputability. But as far as Nemba hours I am not finding a total for last year listed on our sight. I am finding that Ct alone posted 1600 hrs last year and that doesn't include the rest of NewEngland I can tell you my little chapter in So NH posted alittle over 400 hrs. I will contact our board and get a true number. unless you want to show me the source you have for what was it? "half of your 2600 hrs." So far for one state and one chapter I have 2000 hrs lets see what the true numbers are shall we. Maybe you could help me by giving a specific link to the NEMBA data you found on our site. That would be helpful seeing you already looked this up yes?

To be honest I cannot find the info again... I remember it was buried pretty deep, so I tried to look it up on the Mass DCR site with no luck, if anyone knows where to find this info on that site please help out...



Out of Curiousity Ozzy and Henry are you both active in trail work? If you preach you need to lead also....wouldn't you agree?


This is my first season back in the sport in many years, so as of yet I have not attended any work parties. Our first work party is sceduled mid may and I will be there... Also made a donation to the fund and plan on making more when I can free up some extra loot. I will attend _ALL_ work parties my club has scheduled, and I totally agree that one cannot preach without leading... I am personally looking forward to getting as involved and as educated as possible on this matter, to the point I'll be checking out some of the resources you guys have on your page concerning trail construction and maintenance, seems like you've got a bunch of good stuff on there, hope you don't mind if I steal some for my own use during upcoming work parties! In my opinion we really have to rally the troops, the trails we are on are sooooo over used and stressed because of that we really need to get as many new people into the clubs and at work parties as possible... I know we've alreeady got some new recruits for the season and I will be working hard on my own time to bolster those numbers, as I've got some considerable resources at my disposal in the atv/MX arena... just hoping I can make a real positive change in the next couple of years!


To be Honest back at you here Ozzy I just recieved an email from our director and Our Data hasn't been reported for last year yet! As matter of fact he hasn't completed his collection of it from the chapters but extects it to be around 5500 hours. (Feel free to check with Nemba.org if you doubt what I am saying here?)

But all acrimony aside I will encourage you to get invovled in trail work but please don't come on here telling us what we do wrong until you have some experiance. We have a long way to go I admit in the area of educating Mntbers to mind ther manners on the trails stay off of private property etc etc. We will keep at it though! And I hope you guys will do the same.

[Ozzy]

To be Honest back at you here Ozzy I just recieved an email from our director and Our Data hasn't been reported for last year yet! As matter of fact he hasn't completed his collection of it from the chapters but extects it to be around 5500 hours. (Feel free to check with Nemba.org if you doubt what I am saying here?)

That seems to make sense, its entirely possible the figure I had was for a particular state, someone had mentioned connetcuit, which i couldn't even find that last time through, so I believe your source.



But all acrimony aside I will encourage you to get invovled in trail work but please don't come on here telling us what we do wrong until you have some experiance. We have a long way to go I admit in the area of educating Mntbers to mind ther manners on the trails stay off of private property etc etc. We will keep at it though! And I hope you guys will do the same.


I have never told you guys what you do wrong when it comes to trail maintenance, from what I've seen you do a great job... I've been critical of some people on this site who claim the atv'ers do nothing, which as we all know is a bunch of bunk. I also am critical of the fact that some of these people are unwilling to admit that the atv groups and other groups such as NETRA have made a lot of positive changes in the past couple of years... It seems some people on this site are going to be close minded and nothing short of hateful towards the atv world no matter what we do, and that's what I take offense to. While you and I have our differences it seems to me that you are at least reasonable and willing to have a positive outlook on thingsm which is something I wish I could see from everyone, atv'ers included... In my experience, negative additudes yield negative results, and vice versa. Our group is much more likely to get what we want by going out and doing as much work as we can in the state-forests, and keeping an open dialogue with the DCR, not by bitchin' and moaning about it, and the same goes for you guys, and I think some of you realize that... and some of us do as well, we just need to get as close to ALL of us realising it as possible... ATV's are going nowhere, they create way too much revenue for the government, and that seems in large part what this government is all about... But that does not mean we should have a f*** everybody else additude... We should do our best to "be good neighbors" so we can each enjoy what it is we take from our sports.

[nhiker]

quote from Ozzy today 04/18/05
"I have never told you guys what you do wrong when it comes to trail maintenance, from what I've seen you do a great job... I've been critical of some people on this site who claim the atv'ers do nothing, which as we all know is a bunch of bunk. I also am critical of the fact that some of these people are unwilling to admit that the atv groups and other groups such as NETRA have made a lot of positive changes in the past couple of years... It seems some people on this site are going to be close minded and nothing short of hateful towards the atv world no matter what we do, and that's what I take offense to. While you and I have our differences it seems to me that you are at least reasonable and willing to have a positive outlook on thingsm which is something I wish I could see from everyone, atv'ers included... In my experience, negative additudes yield negative results, and vice versa. Our group is much more likely to get what we want by going out and doing as much work as we can in the state-forests, and keeping an open dialogue with the DCR, not by bitchin' and moaning about it, and the same goes for you guys, and I think some of you realize that... and some of us do as well, we just need to get as close to ALL of us realising it as possible... ATV's are going nowhere, they create way too much revenue for the government, and that seems in large part what this government is all about... But that does not mean we should have a f*** everybody else additude... We should do our best to "be good neighbors" so we can each enjoy what it is we take from our sports."

I would agree...we need to be openminded and listen to the concerns being voiced out there on both sides. I allso hope that as we have the decision makers on your side will not simply discount the enviormentalists opinions....and they can be ahh dificult but please listen anyway this will help you guys up the road as it does us. I also understand your anoyance at being taxed but restricted from using many lands but that I think is do to the bad apples out there and maybe a lot of the antienviormental statements that are heard coming from ATVers.
Been an interesting discussion though
Good luck
Nhiker

[Ozzy]

I would agree...we need to be openminded and listen to the concerns being voiced out there on both sides. I allso hope that as we have the decision makers on your side will not simply discount the enviormentalists opinions....and they can be ahh dificult but please listen anyway this will help you guys up the road as it does us. I also understand your anoyance at being taxed but restricted from using many lands but that I think is do to the bad apples out there and maybe a lot of the antienviormental statements that are heard coming from ATVers.
Been an interesting discussion though
Good luck


The truth is what is good for us is good for you, and vice versa in an environment where we must share. It may be 'hard', but for us the results are trails that last longer and more fun IMO... you can only go through so many mud holes before it starts to loose its thrill, and for you, hopefully we can get to the point where you can enjoy more of the multiuse-trails than you can now.

[slapheadmofo]

It may be 'hard', but for us the results are trails that last longer and more fun IMO... you can only go through so many mud holes before it starts to loose its thrill.


That's something I sure like to hear.

[biffster]

Why don't you guys start in Savoy?

It's good weather now. Get some ATV buds together and spend a weekend getting the trails cleaned up. Make a video of your work. Post stuff like that on your site. Show people that you care.

You have access. Use your ATV's for the trail work. Beats carrying in all your stuff like we have to do. :(

Saw another post today about you guys. Never seems to end....


http://www.ctriders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3308

[Ozzy]

Why don't you guys start in Savoy?

It's good weather now. Get some ATV buds together and spend a weekend getting the trails cleaned up. Make a video of your work. Post stuff like that on your site. Show people that you care.

You have access. Use your ATV's for the trail work. Beats carrying in all your stuff like we have to do. :(

Correct me if I'm wrong, (and i may be), but I believe Savoys not open until May 1st for ORV use... And aside from that, I am stuck in my attic this weekend framing in a new room in the 100+ degree (or however hot it is up there... Once the season opens I am sure to end up in Savoy to do some work, the good news is a new group will be taking on the Maint. responsibilites up there this year, as the past few years no one has had Savoy as their own as far as trail maint. as the group that used to do it is now defunct. Hopefully with a group that can dedicate more time to it rather than everyone else trying to maintain it in addition to whatever other forest they are assigned to, we should see some marked improvement this year!

[ATV_User]

Why don't you guys start in Savoy?

It's good weather now. Get some ATV buds together and spend a weekend getting the trails cleaned up. Make a video of your work. Post stuff like that on your site. Show people that you care.

You have access. Use your ATV's for the trail work. Beats carrying in all your stuff like we have to do. :(

Saw another post today about you guys. Never seems to end....


http://www.ctriders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3308


Savoy will not open on time (May 1st). It never does. It is way to wet up there to let anyone in. Like I said, once the parks open and the scheduled work parties come around, there will be pictures / videos for people to see. Just as a note, PSF's first work party is May 22nd.

[biffster]

Noticed this article in a recent paper. What I find interesting is that out of 75,000 ATV's in the state of Connecticut, only 2,500 are registered. Kinda throws all that income for the government theory out of the window there Ozzy and ATV rider.

If you get land, who's going to police the other 72,500 yahoos out there? Think about it. Only 3.3% of ATV riders are registered. This means 3.3% are going to pay for the damage done by the other 96.7%. With such a big number of unregisterd ATV's how do you ATV guys propose to police them?

Article below:

Plainfield — Imagine owning a car and not having anywhere to drive it.

Further imagine that the state owns thousands of miles of roads but won't allow you to use them, although you must register the car and pay taxes on it.

This is the frustration that owners of all-terrain vehicles say they have faced for years. Banned from state-owned land, users are confined to riding on their own property or paying dues to clubs to drive on tracks.

Of the 75,000 ATVs state officials estimate are in the state, just 2,500 are registered. The reason, said Gene Savoie of Columbia, is that most riders feel they shouldn't have to pay the state and get nothing in return.

Recently, riders have lobbied the General Assembly to open state land to off-road vehicles like ATVs and dirt bikes. At the forefront is the CT Trail Users club.

“Everybody wants a little piece and they're trying to stake it out,” said Jack Majewski of Norwich, a club member who also helps maintain a 60-mile trail for motorcycles in the Pachaug State Forest. “What we're just trying to prove is that we're not going to run through a wetlands or endanger (others).”

Majewski and others are participating this weekend in the 2005 ATV Off-Road Games at the Central Cycle Club in Plainfield. Saturday was family day, when people could buy a ticket to drive on the moto-cross tracks at the club.

Today's event is the motorcycle ECross, a competition for motorcycles only, starting at 10 a.m.

Saturday's event included drags, hill climbs, mudbogs, and a kid's track. About 200 riders participated, doubling last year's attendance, said Dan Salamone of Higganum, president of CTU.

Salamone and others say the problems of ATV riders riding illegally on property would be greatly alleviated if those riders had designated places to go.

He said CTU is most interested in Senate Bill 5599. The proposed law would require ATV owners to register their vehicles if operated on land not owned or leased by the ATV owner, and registration fees would be used to establish riding areas on state land.

The bill made it out of the joint committee on the environment and on April 11 was referred to the Office of Legislative Research and Office of Fiscal Analysis.

Heather Canny, 17, of Prospect, races all over New England and New York in hair scrambles and enduros. Hair scrambles are 6- to 10-mile races; enduros are races against the clock.

Canny said her grandfather was a rider 30 years ago, and he got her father and uncle involved. Now, Canny and one of her brothers, 16-year-old Nick, ride and compete.

“I love doing this,” Canny said Saturday afternoon. “Motorcycle racing has been my passion, it's been my drive through all of high school. It's kept me going, so I want to keep it going.”

Canny said she's paying attention to the legislation.

“For kids to not be able to get what I got out of it, that would be horrible,” she said. “I would do anything to keep land open for motorcycles — all ATVs. You learn a lot and it keeps you out of trouble. I know it did good for me and Nick.”

Savoie, the treasurer of CTU, said his family rides ATVs in their back yard and then rides on out-of-state trails.

Savoie said because of his daughters' riding experience, he won't worry as much about them when they reach driving age.

They have been taught to respect the machine they drive, he said, and they have already maintained a vehicle.

“When they turn 16, it won't be their first introduction to controlling a vehicle,” Savoie said.

For more information, visit www.cttrailusers.com.

[Ozzy]

Noticed this article in a recent paper. What I find interesting is that out of 75,000 ATV's in the state of Connecticut, only 2,500 are registered. Kinda throws all that income for the government theory out of the window there Ozzy and ATV rider.

Actually, the most recent estimate by the federal higway commission is $286 million a year in revenue, so, I would say that's a pretty healthy number.


If you get land, who's going to police the other 72,500 yahoos out there? Think about it. Only 3.3% of ATV riders are registered. This means 3.3% are going to pay for the damage done by the other 96.7%. With such a big number of unregisterd ATV's how do you ATV guys propose to police them?
There are nearly 56,000 registered ATV s in Maine, and the number is growing 10 percent a year. There are designated places to ride in Maine. Registration in Maine has increased by 90% in the last 5 years! This is the difference between your suggested approach and mine. Mine makes positive steps forward, yours, catasrophic steps backwards.



Quote from article:
Further imagine that the state owns thousands of miles of roads but won't allow you to use them, although you must register the car and pay taxes on it.
This is the frustration that owners of all-terrain vehicles say they have faced for years. Banned from state-owned land, users are confined to riding on their own property or paying dues to clubs to drive on tracks.
Of the 75,000 ATVs state officials estimate are in the state, just 2,500 are registered. The reason, said Gene Savoie of Columbia, is that most riders feel they shouldn't have to pay the state and get nothing in return.
Salamone and others say the problems of ATV riders riding illegally on property would be greatly alleviated if those riders had designated places to go.


So it is fair to say that if you give people a place to ride, they will pay fee's to ride there, and they will be less likely to ride other places they aren't supposed to be... This is true because if you are riding on an orv trail in a state forest, it is then impossible for you to be, at the same time, riding on someone's private propert, or on trails designated for other uses.
Now we can clearly see the benefit of _working with_ atv groups, rather than against them!



“For kids to not be able to get what I got out of it, that would be horrible,” she said. “I would do anything to keep land open for motorcycles — all ATVs. You learn a lot and it keeps you out of trouble. I know it did good for me and Nick.”

He makes a good point. And you've made a great point with this article! Its clear that the best way to maintain trails is to open them to us legally and encourage growth in our club base! Trying to ban us, which is essentially the situation in Conn... has resulted in huge losses in capital for upkeep on state-land, and cut user groups who would volunteer to help fix trails to 0. Obviously this is not the right approach, what is happening in Massachusetts, and the federal forest, obviously is a much better approach!

[biffster]

I heard ATV's are banned from the area where the video was made. No more ATV's are going to be allowed in Savoy.

[TrailBate]

where did you hear that? according to the park's website, they are still allowed.

[biffster]

This is posted on the WMATV site:

http://www.westernmassatv.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=765

[TrailBate]

saw this on one of their threads:

"There are a few pics and maybe even some video, but we have to see which are politically correct. We don't want a mountain bike-atv flame war again."

they're censoring their own pictures!!

[felixatvtc]

saw this on one of their threads:

"There are a few pics and maybe even some video, but we have to see which are politically correct. We don't want a mountain bike-atv flame war again."

they're censoring their own pictures!!


So what?? Doesn't this fall under the MYOFB like in the gay thread?

[markdupont]

That's how some hiking advocates see us. Destructive and proud of it.


Sorry but, the "shoe on the other foot" argument doesn't even begin to apply here. There is no way you can compare the impact of a 4 wheeled ATV to that of a mountain bike.


Really... No outdoor user group should be pointing fingers at the other shouting destruction just remember, once you’ve scarified that piece of soil or leaf bed, YOU’VE CHANGED THAT ECOSYSTEM FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME! And THIS is the argument the Greenies will use against YOU!...

...and thanks Truckboy, that IS the reality and soon our friends the hikers will be knocking on the DCR’s doors with destruction vids just like this… and with that, The Nature Conservancy will only have to WALK TO THE NEXT CUBICLE to complain the hikers are beating up the trails…

I’m a 30 year member of the 4X4 community, a Mass taxpayer and a lifelong (50 years) Massachusetts outdoor enthusiast, I’ve seen more publicly accessible hiking, biking and 4wd trails closed in 20 years then every outdoor community combined has seen OPENED in 30 years… as we (the 4x4 community) have partnered with the off-highway motorized vehicle community (motorcycles & ATVs), I would STRONGLY suggest your community start making alliances with other outdoor user groups and begin to realize strength in numbers may stem the tide of trail miles loss…

[TrailBate]

saw this on one of their threads:

"There are a few pics and maybe even some video, but we have to see which are politically correct. We don't want a mountain bike-atv flame war again."

they're censoring their own pictures!!


So what?? Doesn't this fall under the MYOFB like in the gay thread?


no, this falls under the "we know we're causing damage, so don't them see it" like in this thread.

[TrailBate]

I would STRONGLY suggest your community start making alliances with other outdoor user groups and begin to realize strength in numbers may stem the tide of trail miles loss…



I think just the opposite is true. We need to distance ourselves as much as possible from the motorized group.

[felixatvtc]

saw this on one of their threads:

"There are a few pics and maybe even some video, but we have to see which are politically correct. We don't want a mountain bike-atv flame war again."

they're censoring their own pictures!!


So what?? Doesn't this fall under the MYOFB like in the gay thread?


no, this falls under the "we know we're causing damage, so don't them see it" like in this thread.


I agree with you, but to me this is just beating a dead horse. Let them do there own thing, they'll dig there own grave and have to fight there own battles. IMO it's not our problem until the "greenies" (that keep being brought up in this thread) group us=mtber's with ATVers.

[slapheadmofo]

Motorized groups have lost tons of access, deservedly so IMO, but it seems to me I know of more hiking/biking trails being created than closed in the past 10 years or so. I don't see this tide of lost biking trails - can someone point me to some specific figures wrt to this?

[markdupont]

I would STRONGLY suggest your community start making alliances with other outdoor user groups and begin to realize strength in numbers may stem the tide of trail miles loss…



I think just the opposite is true. We need to distance ourselves as much as possible from the motorized group.


Too bad… a comment like yours reads either elitist or uninformed but regardless, when the state government and special interest group Vultures are finished picking the various outdoor user groups bones clean and start lookin' your way, we’ll be sure to lend y’all a hand in your most desperate hour…

[200X]

saw this on one of their threads:

"There are a few pics and maybe even some video, but we have to see which are politically correct. We don't want a mountain bike-atv flame war again."

they're censoring their own pictures!!


Can you blame them though? This thread is how many months old and 30+ pages long. All over one video. They'd just be opening the flood gates if more pictures were posted.

[biffster]

What do you have to hide?

If you guys are responsibile trails users as you claim, then why not show some photos of "responsible trail use"?

[Phoenix827]

What do you have to hide?

If you guys are responsibile trails users as you claim, then why not show some photos of "responsible trail use"?

With pleasure! Trail clean up, mass. 4/05 http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/phoenix827/album?.dir=/1539&.src=ph&.tok=phLta4CBCqv9rUfwPulled quite a nice sized pile out of the woods here.

[200X]

What do you have to hide?





Nothing! That video showed ATVs riding on legally designated off-road trails. A few folks here took it a little far IMHO.

Funny that this video came out, and now Savoy is shut. As the saying goes, "You don't have to be a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing."

If people used this video to shut down Savoy to OHV use, that really takes things to a new low IMHO. Whether you guys want to admit it or not, you're part of the off-road community. Just because you don't have engines powering your rigs, doesn't mean that some don't view you in the same light you view us. I think we should all be working together, or at the very least, respecting each other, and respecting the fact that we just want to get out and ride. We don't have to hold hands, sing "Kum Ba Yah" and have a picnic in the woods....but have a little respect for the little bit of land we have to ride on.

The off-road world is literally your oyster. You guys have hundreds of times more land to ride on then we do. Hell, you can ride on the road legally! I just don't understand why some of you are so hell bent as to keeping us off what little land we have.

I hate to use that old adage that's always used, but just remember this: "When they came for the ATVers, I didn't speak up. (In fact, I encouraged them). When they came for the dirt bikers, I didn't speak up. When they came after the Mountain Bikers, there was no one left to speak up for us."

[TrailBate]

Nothing! That video showed ATVs riding on legally designated off-road trails. A few folks here took it a little far IMHO.

and if that is an example of ATV's riding legally, imagine what is being done illegally


Funny that this video came out, and now Savoy is shut. As the saying goes, "You don't have to be a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing."

If people used this video to shut down Savoy to OHV use, that really takes things to a new low IMHO.

funny how you are insinuating that we here at NEMBA and/or that video got Savoy closed to ATV's. Do you know this for sure?



Whether you guys want to admit it or not, you're part of the off-road community. Just because you don't have engines powering your rigs, doesn't mean that some don't view you in the same light you view us. I think we should all be working together, or at the very least, respecting each other, and respecting the fact that we just want to get out and ride. We don't have to hold hands, sing "Kum Ba Yah" and have a picnic in the woods....but have a little respect for the little bit of land we have to ride on.




you guys can't even hold onto, maintain, or respect the "little bit of land" that you have. Why should mountain bikers work with you guys? We are trail users like hikers, you guys are road makers and trail trashers.

[WMATV]

Lets get a something straight here:

As much as some of the members here would like to think it is, the video is NOT the reason Savoy is closed to ORV use. It was certainly viewed by several folks at the DCR and other leaders, but it is not the reason for the closure.

[mtbtom]

According to the DCR's website, Savoy State forest closed pretty much for the reasons that were reiterated here, over and over and over again.

"DCR made this decision after determining that continued motorized vehicle use in the Savoy Mountain State Forest would cause severe and irreparable harm to the forest and its trails and would place trail users and park visitors at risk. The evaluation criteria used to make this determination included wetlands conditions and protection, topography and slopes, soil conditions, habitat protection, and public safety."

Linkage:
http://www.mass.gov/dcr/news/savoyORVs.doc

[200X]

[quote author=TrailBait ]

We are trail users like hikers, you guys are road makers and trail trashers.


Help me out here. A gentleman I saw coming out of the woods this weekend to cross an ATV trail in Pittsfield. He litterally came out of the woods; wasn't on any trail at all. That's using a trail?

So me riding my ATV on a designated OHV trail is a problem, but a mountain biker blazing his own trail is OK?

[slapheadmofo]

And who here said it was okay to blaze trails?

Just another one of my posts you guys are welcome to avoid responding to. Currently still looking for some figures on the many miles of hiking/biking trails we've supposedly been losing for years now because we're not teamed up with the groups that have made themselves thoroughly unwelcome in the woods. Anything at all...?

[TrailBate]

[quote author=TrailBait ]

We are trail users like hikers, you guys are road makers and trail trashers.


Help me out here. A gentleman I saw coming out of the woods this weekend to cross an ATV trail in Pittsfield. He litterally came out of the woods; wasn't on any trail at all. That's using a trail?

So me riding my ATV on a designated OHV trail is a problem, but a mountain biker blazing his own trail is OK?




no, it's not ok. If that were indeed what he was doing, he was being irresponsible.

Are you sure there was no trail there? it is sometimes difficult to pick out biking trails, especially fall to spring.

bikers who bike illegally cause damage, ATV's that bike legally still cause damage. There is no comparison

[slapheadmofo]

What do you have to hide?

If you guys are responsibile trails users as you claim, then why not show some photos of "responsible trail use"?

With pleasure! Trail clean up, mass. 4/05 http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/phoenix827/album?.dir=/1539&.src=ph&.tok=phLta4CBCqv9rUfwPulled quite a nice sized pile out of the woods here.


That is a pretty good pile; even looks like you guys found my old Dodge Ramcharger out there! I was wondering where that thing got to ;)

[TrailBate]

I'm glad to see you guys cleaned that mess up.

BUT, I don't see any trail maintenance here. Don't get me wrong, it's great that trash was cleaned up. But if those roads weren't there, that dumping wouldn't happen in the first place.

[biffster]

I just laugh at you ATV posters who claim that somehow by uniting with your cause we would get more trails. I also really like your scare tactic that we are going to lose places to ride if you get booted and that somehow we're next.

The only thing uniting with you would do is help YOU not US.

Groups like NEMBA have been working hard to give mountain bikers an image of upstanding citizens who care about the trails. Our group does everything it can to work with other RESPONSIBLE trail users to ensure our PRIVLEDGE of having trails to ride is preserved.

For you guys to ask for us to help you, unite and allow you to ride the coattails of NEMBA and other countless pro-MTB advocacy group and the work they have done is ludicris. Why would we risk all the goodwill we have worked so hard for to get in order to help an IRRESPONSIBLE user group such as yours gain access?

Why do we have riding areas? Because MTB'ers are PROACTIVE, LISTEN TO WHAT LAND MANAGERS HAVE TO SAY, AND SELF-POLICE OURSELVES to make sure that mountain bikers have a good image in the trail user community.

In closing, as far as the sales tax issue that someone raised, mountain bikes cost between 2-5k each. Sales tax is also collected on these machines. You claim that since you pay sales tax you deserve a place to ride? Well, there is far more $$ spent on MTB's in NE than ATV's so your arguement doesn't hold water with me.

[200X]

In closing, as far as the sales tax issue that someone raised, mountain bikes cost between 2-5k each. Sales tax is also collected on these machines. You claim that since you pay sales tax you deserve a place to ride? Well, there is far more $$ spent on MTB's in NE than ATV's so your arguement doesn't hold water with me.




2-5k? Everyone on this forum has a bike that costs that much?

If my old Univega carbon fiber frame something or other Mt Bike is worth that much, someone point me to the classifieds around here.

[slapheadmofo]

2-5k? Everyone on this forum has a bike that costs that much?



"A" bike? heheheh....17 around the house at last count. My 3 'best' ones would total up around $13k new. Value falls off a cliff as soon as you wheel 'em out of the shop though; classified ads are the way to buy as far as I'm concerned.

[200X]

2-5k? Everyone on this forum has a bike that costs that much?



"A" bike? heheheh....17 around the house at last count. My 3 'best' ones would total up around $13k new. Value falls off a cliff as soon as you wheel 'em out of the shop though; classified ads are the way to buy as far as I'm concerned.


Mine's used. I'll take $1,500 for it. That's gotta be a steal. ;)

The sales tax thing is irrelavant. As someone else pointed out, everyone pays sales tax, on almost everything.

Everyone's hobbies or toyes are expensive, whether mtb bike, atv, boat, jet ski, etc. That arguement is foolish, for both sides. I have friends with several thousand invested in their mtn bike, and friends with thousands invested in their quads.

[Ozzy]

and if that is an example of ATV's riding legally, imagine what is being done illegally

Lol, I saw several mountain bikers in the Pittsfield State Forests just the other day riding in the woods... I mean, riding _IN THE WOODS_ For those of you who have trouble understanding that, I mean, NOT ON A TRAIL. Nice... Now we have an example of illegal.



Funny how you are insinuating that we here at NEMBA and/or that video got Savoy closed to ATV's. Do you know this for sure?


I'm sure it had something to do with someone whining about something that doesn't concern them and something they know nothing about other than the fact it serves their selfish personal needs. So far you fit the bill as far as I can tell.


you guys can't even hold onto, maintain, or respect the "little bit of land" that you have. Why should mountain bikers work with you guys? We are trail users like hikers, you guys are road makers and trail trashers.

Well, I believe I've already posted our workgroup numbers and hours for the state of Massachusetts which quickly shut all of you up, so no need to do it again, just search back a couple of pages to find out that you're still wrong about us not being able to maintain our trails, amongst other things. And as far as working with us, well, there are a few, and I mean, a _FEW_ of you that are reasonable, educated, and otherwise intelligent enough that I wouldn't mind standing side by side with you, as for the rest of you, your selfish, self centered, egotistical, ignorant, rude, and intolerable people who apparently don't care to understand what the premise behind sharing, and being a descent person is. You mine as well rename your group MMM, which of course stands for ME ME ME, as that is your only concern no matter at whose expense or civil liberties. Can you imagine for just one second, one of this nations founding fathers suggesting that roads be closed to horses as they make it more difficult to travel by foot, or even in the 1900's that cars should be banned as they leave ruts in the road as well... If you're type was alive and kicking back then we would all still be on foot, we would all still be in the dark ages, and you'd be complaining that the heels on boots damage the terrain too much and it should be a law that only people wearing loafers should be allowed on public ways.

[radair]

HAHAHAHAHA

Ozzy, you are a comedian!!! Thanks for that!

[Ozzy]

And who here said it was okay to blaze trails?

So simple minded you can't even decipher the point here. The point is if we had a video of these mountain bikers blazing trails we wouldn't run to big brother and whine about a few bad apples off the beaten path. We are not elitist, we are not not cry babies. We have no vendetta against our fellow man. Problems are solved through discussion, conversation, not backstabbing. We have no desire to destroy your sport, your recreation, your reward, your relaxation, your enjoyment, at the end of the day. Yet, at the end of the day, it seems that is what you seek to do to us.
Odd it seems, you accuse us of destroying your trails, yet just this past weekend I was in Pittsfield State forest, and did not come across one trail that was impassable on a mountain bike... So at least in this case your claim lay false, but yet, I doubt you would blink at the opportunity to elimate us from said state forest for your own selfish benefit. Can you not see who is actually ruining the fun for others here. Is it not apparent that you are the destroyers of common decency and sharing. Unbeknownst to you, people have will however, and people despise having their rights, and their freedoms trampled on by someone who knows better. Beware what you ask, for you may get it:

Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain. (Numbers 23:24)



Just another one of my posts you guys are welcome to avoid responding to.


Apparently wrong again... Surprised??? Not really.

[Phoenix827]

I'm glad to see you guys cleaned that mess up.

BUT, I don't see any trail maintenance here. Don't get me wrong, it's great that trash was cleaned up. But if those roads weren't there, that dumping wouldn't happen in the first place.

That road IS a road. Been around longer then probably anyone on here. The dumping is morons that are too lazy to take it wheare it belongs, or to cheap to pay the dumping fees.
I got to say tho, I DO see a few people here who realize that if we don't stand together, we will all hang seperately. Glad to see it! I am not an atv rider, I prefer trucks, but I DO think some of that video was a bit too much, I know dirt is gonna get moved whenever ANY of us are out, wether we are on bikes, atvs, or in a truck. On a mtn bike, it's gonna be a 2-4" wide track, in a truck it's gonna be a couple 1-2' wide tracks, and a couple 1' wide tracks on a quad. Even WALKING in the woods is gonna move some dirt! It's gonna happen! But the stream crossing in that video (for an example) is WAY too far! Every one I wheel with treads as lightly as we can, there is NO sense is throwing mud around unless it's a place that can handle it. (a MAN- MADE bog for example) all that does is rip it up untill no-one can get threw it at all, then you get what we saw on here, one guy stuck, 5-6 going around OFF the trail. I enjoy going out with my kids, as do most of the people I know, you don't need to bury a truck/quad/bike in 2' of mud to have fun, especially if you got kids with you! We are ALL out there to get away, relax, have fun, and be FREE for a little while!! Thats all it boils down to!
My $.02, ymmv! ;D
Chris

btw, Randy from allied on here at all?

[Ozzy]

According to the DCR's website, Savoy State forest closed pretty much for the reasons that were reiterated here, over and over and over again.

"DCR made this decision after determining that continued motorized vehicle use in the Savoy Mountain State Forest would cause severe and irreparable harm to the forest and its trails and would place trail users and park visitors at risk. The evaluation criteria used to make this determination included wetlands conditions and protection, topography and slopes, soil conditions, habitat protection, and public safety."


This just further proves my point how ignorant people are. I have a degree in environmental science, and at the very least, I can tell you that no amount of atv's can cause irreparable damage to good old mother earth. In fact, If you detonated EVERY SINGLE NUCLEAR WEAPON on this entire planet at the same time, in the same location, mother earth would survive just fine, and that is a scientific fact.

Becky's statement is absolutely ridiclous on almost every point it makes. If someone can tell me how an atv trail puts someone at risk, please go ahead... keep in mind that I will be comparing what you put forth as _risk_ to what one may come across, at any natural, unaffected part of the park... For example, are there naturally occuring mudholes, yes... Are there naturally occuring deformities in the land, such as an area where the ground is not perfectly level or flat... yes... So go ahead, tell me where the danger is.

There is reference to wetland conditions. In massachusetts all wetlands are required to have a 'buffer zone. By law there should be no trails of ANY type in or near a wetland, so their point is moot here, if the atv trails are too close to a wetland, then that trail cannot be used by anyone for anything, period!

Topography and slopes are fancy teminology for anything that is not dead level. Just because there is a hill somewhere doesn't mean its going to cause damage or make an unsafe condition because its an atv hill. The hill would be unsafe with or without the atv, not sure what her point is, other than its wrong.

Soil conditions... 32 miles of trails in 11,000 acres can have no measurable, appreciable effect on the forests soil, sorry.

Now habitat protection, again, if a trail affects the habitat of any creature, then it will do so wether someone is hiking, biking, or riding a atv on it. It is the fact that there is a trail that affects the habitat, not what is one the trail. This is a simple fact. Another fact is that these mud-holes we create, well, they happen to in fact fit in many cases meet the criteria set forth by the definition of a vernal pool. So, amazingly enough, we actually create new habitats for craetures such as salamanders and tree frogs, that could not otherwise survive in the forests, how nice of us.

This letter is a bunch of b.s. to anyone who knows what they're talking about. This ruling to close Savoy is politics as usual and nothing more, there is no scientific data to support it. The end.

[no-throttle]

[/quote]
I'm sure it had something to do with someone whining about something that doesn't concern them and something they know nothing about other than the fact it serves their selfish personal needs. So far you fit the bill as far as I can tell.
[quote]

Ozzy.... Slow down here....your not making sense.
How does this issue NOT concern me.....

[Ozzy]

bikers who bike illegally cause damage, ATV's that bike legally still cause damage. There is no comparison


Thats kind of like saying smoking a little crack is okay.

[slapheadmofo]

I can tell you that no amount of atv's can cause irreparable damage to good old mother earth.

What do they do to singletrack though?

'Passable' and 'enjoyable' are two totally different things. Quads and singletrack are mutually exclusive. Less quads mean more singletrack. When quads show up, singletrack disappears. That ruins my reward, my relaxation, my enjoyment at the end of the day. (Did I mention I like singletrack?) Now that I think about it, we have been losing trails for years now - they've been turning into roads wherever people ride ATVs on them.

My opinions are based on what I've actually seen in 20 years on the trails, first on dirt bikes, then on mt bikes, not on a single video. I didn't 'backstab' anyone - I've been here talking to you guys about it. If I hear about people building illegal mt bike trails, I give my opinion about that to whoever will listen too. Trust me, there are plenty of mt bikers that are sick of listening to me beat the trailwork drum lately.

And I'll see your 'simple minded' and raise you a hearty GFY.

:P

[Ozzy]

In closing, as far as the sales tax issue that someone raised, mountain bikes cost between 2-5k each. Sales tax is also collected on these machines. You claim that since you pay sales tax you deserve a place to ride? Well, there is far more $$ spent on MTB's in NE than ATV's so your arguement doesn't hold water with me.


First of all, thats not what EVERY mountain bike costs, and if you're stupid enough to pay 5K for some tube steel and 2 pedals, I guess you deserve to pay 5K for some tube steel and 2 pedals.

Secondly, the point is we pay a gasoline tax to maintain those trails, and we pay a registration fee to have access to the trails, neither of which you pay.

You really are so poorly educated its a shame.

[Ozzy]

Ozzy.... Slow down here....your not making sense.
How does this issue NOT concern me.....


As someone stated earlier, you guys have not lost, but increased the amount of singletrack trails at your disposal. Point being, you have plenty of places to ride single track, and we have 4 places to ride atv's. It doesn't concern you if you're willing to stick to your single track and let us stick to our orv trails, but it seems you want EVERY trail for yourselves. And before you say it, every atv'er who rides on single track should face repercussions. As long as we have orv trails there is no need to be on your trails... I suggest we keep orv trails around for that reason, because I bet you can guess what would happen if there weren't any. Again, be careful for what you ask for.

[biffster]

First of all, thats not what EVERY mountain bike costs, and if you're stupid enough to pay 5K for some tube steel and 2 pedals, I guess you deserve to pay 5K for some tube steel and 2 pedals.

At least I have over a dozen places withing twenty miles of my house to ride my steel tube and two pedals legally.

What is stupid is someone who pays $5k for some 4 wheeler and nowhere to ride it.

What is even more stupid is trying to justify those mudholes in Savoy as creating salamander and tree frog habitat. Your posts get more foolish everytime you post.

You should stop now and walk away before you embarass yourself even more.

[Ozzy]

What do they do to singletrack though?


They shouldn't be on single-track, and the issue, from the start of this thread, to the closing of Savoy state forest to orv's, til this post has never been about ruining single track. That was not a single-track trail in the video, and the orv trails closed in savoy were obviously not singletracks, nor did the letter from MCR state that because of damage to single tracks that orv use would be stopped.


'Passable' and 'enjoyable' are two totally different things. Quads and singletrack are mutually exclusive. Less quads mean more singletrack. When quads show up, singletrack disappears. That ruins my reward, my relaxation, my enjoyment at the end of the day. (Did I mention I like singletrack?) Now that I think about it, we have been losing trails for years now - they've been turning into roads wherever people ride ATVs on them.

None of the trails in PSF are "ROADS", and they've been in use by atv's for years, so I'm not sure where you get this stuff. Personnally, I can't see how riding any of those trails on a mt. bk. would _NOT_ be enjoyable. They offer great scenery, mostly a nice easy ride, with a few challenging, but not extremely difficult areas. Seems like the perfect trail no matter what you're riding.


My opinions are based on what I've actually seen in 20 years on the trails, first on dirt bikes, then on mt bikes, not on a single video. I didn't 'backstab' anyone - I've been here talking to you guys about it. If I hear about people building illegal mt bike trails, I give my opinion about that to whoever will listen too. Trust me, there are plenty of mt bikers that are sick of listening to me beat the trailwork drum lately.

Maybe you didn't backstab anyone, maybe you didn't whine to the big brother, and if thats the case I give you respect for that.



And I'll see your 'simple minded' and raise you a hearty GFY.

:P

Thanks for proving my point :)

[slapheadmofo]

In closing, as far as the sales tax issue that someone raised, mountain bikes cost between 2-5k each. Sales tax is also collected on these machines. You claim that since you pay sales tax you deserve a place to ride? Well, there is far more $$ spent on MTB's in NE than ATV's so your arguement doesn't hold water with me.


First of all, thats not what EVERY mountain bike costs, and if you're stupid enough to pay 5K for some tube steel and 2 pedals, I guess you deserve to pay 5K for some tube steel and 2 pedals.

Secondly, the point is we pay a gasoline tax to maintain those trails, and we pay a registration fee to have access to the trails, neither of which you pay.

You really are so poorly educated its a shame.


;D Not as stupid as someone who pays 5k for something that he has nowhere to ride eh? And didn't you guys get around $50k in grants last year to maintain trails? Oh and a $60k Sweco the year before? And another tractor before that. All to maintain just 200 miles of trails? Waaaa....
And isnt' it kind of ironic you put $12k into gates to keep 4wd vehicles from accessing 'your' trails? Allow me to quote the NETRA site:

"In 2004, a number of grant requests were approved by MARTAB which benefit ORV riders. ....These grants include: $18,810 for a four week trail crew to work on ORV/multi-use trail projects in five state forests, $5,200 for trail supplies such as waterbar and bridge materials and rock for filling mudholes, $12,000 for gates to keep 4WDs off trails which are maintained for vehicles under 1000 lbs only, and $8,700 for ATV safety education. $9705 was approved for trail maintenance projects by King Philip Trail Riders, a NETRA club for eastern MA.

After reviewing the 2003 grants, it was determined that the motorized use portion of the grants got shorted, and approval was given to a western MA DCR request of $58,000 for a Sweco trail maintenance machine, which is considered the premier tool for drainage and other trail work.

This year NEATV used their John Deere tractor/backhoe/loader, which they obtained through an earlier RTP grant, for trail projects in October Mt State Forest and Savoy State Forest."

[Ozzy]

At least I have over a dozen places withing twenty miles of my house to ride my steel tube and two pedals legally.

Rest assured, I will never have a problem finding a place to ride my atv... in fact someone just told me about a dozen places within twenty miles of your house that I'll be sure to check out as soon as atv's get banned from the state forests ;)


What is stupid is someone who pays $5k for some 4 wheeler and nowhere to ride it.

See above^^^^ lol


What is even more stupid is trying to justify those mudholes in Savoy as creating salamander and tree frog habitat. Your posts get more foolish everytime you post.

Sorry, its true, go to the library and learn about vernal pools before you prove how foolish YOU really are.


You should stop now and walk away before you embarass yourself even more.

Not handling this to well eh... Hoping I'll leave you alone with your teddy bear and your loafers in the closet?

[slapheadmofo]

[quote author=Ozzy
They shouldn't be on single-track, and the issue, from the start of this thread, to the closing of Savoy state forest to orv's, til this post has never been about ruining single track.

It has for me. And that's what my issue with ATV's is. I've never said you shouldn't be able to have a seperate and distinct trail system if you show you can be responsible users. Asked a number of times how you'd propose to handle someting like that it if given the opportunity as a matter of fact. Don't think I ever got a reply. I don't think most ATV riders give a rat's ass about your affects on the enjoyment of others users, but you seem real quick to whine when we're less than concerned about YOUR good times.