Kids these days scare me....

[Slider]

This is scary. Conformity seems to be valued more than freedom among high schoolers. Sure was different when I was young.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/31/students.amendment.ap/index.html

Slider

[truckboy]

Conformity was important when I was a teenager too. We all had to wear the right clothes and listen to the right music.

I think it's the rare highschooler who understands the importance of free speech. That's kinda the point of this article though, that high school doesn't teach it well enough.

I remember reading "Brave New World" and thinking it was an ok social model when I was in high school. It wasn't until after college that I reread it and 1984 that I really understood.

It's when those kids get to be 35 and they still believe the Fox News version that we're in trouble. And I do believe we ARE in trouble. I'll give the highschool kids the benefit of the doubt for now but Adults these days scare me.

[ArmOnFire]

To quote justbill:

"I blame the parents."

[EVIL BOTA]

To quote justbill:

"I blame the parents."


YUP!

Last time i checked, kids are not covered by the bill of rights. They are required to think, speak, act, worship, and conform to the wishes of their parent or gaurdian.
I am all for teaching children about the freedoms they will enjoy when they reach the age of 18. Thats when i boot them out to fend for themselves.

Until that day they will obey.

[truckboy]

So it's the parents' fault that kids don't understand how lucky they are to live under the protection of the Constitution and all its amenments? You can lead a teenager to the info but you can't make him understand it. They aren't cabable imho, but I am speaking only as a former teenager, not a psychologist, teacher or parent even.

[Rych]

This is scary. Conformity seems to be valued more than freedom among high schoolers. Sure was different when I was young.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/31/students.amendment.ap/index.html

Slider


So I don't get this wrong. You are for freedom of speech for everyone?

[slapheadmofo]

Don't forget to give the schools and colleges their fair share of blame also. They're not exactly leading by example - what do you think happens if a student turns in a well written paper on, say, the 'virtues' of the neo-nazi movement? Think there's any chance of an 'A', no matter how good of a job the student does on it? Or more likely a whole bunch of hassle and having to write another paper explaining why we should all jump in the ocean immediately except for descendents of the indigineous peoples?

*edited for spelling*

[huff'npuff]

Don't forget to give the schools and colleges their fair share of blame also. They're not exactly leading by example - what do you think happens if a student turns in a well written paper on, say, the 'virtues' of the neo-nazi movement? Think there's any chance of an 'A', no matter how good of a job the student does on it? Or more likely a whole bunch of hassle and having to write another paper explaining why we should all jump in the ocean immediately except for descendents of the indigineous peoples?

*edited for spelling*



He'd get an 'A' if the WERE any "virtues"

[EVIL BOTA]

So it's the parents' fault that kids don't understand how lucky they are to live under the protection of the Constitution and all its amenments? You can lead a teenager to the info but you can't make him understand it. They aren't cabable imho, but I am speaking only as a former teenager, not a psychologist, teacher or parent even.


If they don't get it the first time.Beat em harder!lol
You can blame the parents for lot of the crap that goes on today.
Alot of parents these days don't take the time to show there kids right and wrong never mind understand the freedoms that the constitution give us all. You should have to take a test before you can have kids..lol

[slapheadmofo]

Don't forget to give the schools and colleges their fair share of blame also. They're not exactly leading by example - what do you think happens if a student turns in a well written paper on, say, the 'virtues' of the neo-nazi movement? Think there's any chance of an 'A', no matter how good of a job the student does on it? Or more likely a whole bunch of hassle and having to write another paper explaining why we should all jump in the ocean immediately except for descendents of the indigineous peoples?

*edited for spelling*



He'd get an 'A' if the WERE any "virtues"



So the grade should be based on the popularity of the opions expressed rather than the quality of the work, and the student should be 'punished' with a lesser grade, while another student who may have done technically inferior work on a more socially acceptable topic should receive a higher grade?

Freedom of what?

[bdee]

Last time i checked, kids are not covered by the bill of rights. They are required to think, speak, act, worship, and conform to the wishes of their parent or gaurdian.
I am all for teaching children about the freedoms they will enjoy when they reach the age of 18. Thats when i boot them out to fend for themselves.

Until that day they will obey.


You're kidding right? I have had the misfortune of knowing people forced to "obey" and think the way their parents wanted (or outwardly pretend to). They were then thrown to the world at various ages after HS or college. It wasn't pretty.

And slaphead is right, just because the subject matter is apalling does not mean it's OK to censor a kid, ever. It sends more than a mixed message with regard to freedoms of speech. Tolerance for some views - just not yours doesn't fly with kids, they're a lot smarter than that (even the neo nazi scumbags). Get the kid some experience and open his eyes to the flip side of his argument - don't waste time and energy on punishments that could serve to create a persecution complex, therby providing a warped justification of his "values".

[Quo Fan]

Some of the things that I made sure that my son is, and learned, is 1) to be polite and respectful of others, 2) how to do arithmatic in his head, 3) to be a leader, and not a follower. I impressed upon him that he will address adults as Mr, Mrs, or Miss. He was to always say please and thank you. I also taught him to be tolerant of other's beliefs, even if he thought they were wrong. I see everyday that there are young people who can't do arithmatic in their head. The clerk behind the counter at the local Dunkin Donuts can't make change without entering it into the register, even then, they may get it wrong.

Not wanting to say the same line that my parents said to me, "If everybody else were jumping off a bridge, would you want to do it too?" I told him to be a leader, not a follower. I think that I've done a good job. I get compliments on how well brought up he is, and I take that as a job well done.

[slapheadmofo]

Well, though it's not right for censorship to be institutionalized and dished out by the government and schools, in a case such as my example, the student's parents would be 100% in the right to crack down on the little nazi bastard, but hard. ;) A big dose of ostracization by his peers would be in order as well. Societal mores shouldn't be handed down by politicians and lawmakers, they should be determined by members of the society itself. Or something like that.

[Slider]

To me, this is the scariest sentence in the whole story:

"Only half of the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories."

I'm afraid we've got a generation of sheep on our hands, ready to be herded. Teenagers in particular ought to be rebelling. To my way of thinking, it's part of the growth process, part of figuring out who you are. Healthy. I thought it was genetic, but maybe I was wrong.

Slider

[sizlinseagulsoup]

"I also taught him to be tolerant of other's beliefs, even if he thought they were wrong."


I hate to say it but...

I partly-blame liberals for this. Although I am not attacking you Quo (I'm sure you know you, with many others are excempt from this), I believe that the value of tolerance has lead towards this viewpoint along kids. The problem is, so many kids have had tolerance beaten down their throats that they don't stick up for anything. People SHOULD be standing up for what's right and confronting people on what is wrong. If someone is racist, should we be tolerant of his racism or should we tell him that's not cool? If a bully beats up gay kids, should his peers confront him on it or should they be tolerant? Where do we draw the line? Kids don't know this.

Sometimes intolerance is needed to spread ideas.

[Quo Fan]

Hmmm... I think that I need to clarify what I taught him. When I said that I taught him to be tolerant of other's beliefs, what I was trying to teach him is not to be tolerant of things like racism, or bullying. What I tried to teach him, is if someone disagreed with him, then that is ok. Sometimes others have differing views. To engage in thoughtful discussion with an open mind. Like we are doing here.

[bike187]

"success is counted sweetest by those who ne'er succeed" - Emily Dickinson

opinion of an 18 year old high school student:
students aren't as aware of the greatness of the first amendment because it isn't as obvious and emphasized in today's curriculum. we didn't have mccarthyism or huge free-speech movements during our age that directly affected us in an obvious way. that and alot of students have lost faith in the government. thomas jefferson himself said that the government should be taken donw and recontstructed every 200 years. we're overdue. i think the government has too much power. people need more say in it and be more easily involved in politics. resources are being depleted in finance and natural ones by governements around the country, especially ours. we have a bleak outlook on the future cause we lost faith in the system. i'm sure that if you ask immigrant kids from countries with restricted speech, they'd be more excited about the first amendment then people who have lived with it their whole life. and about student media, our school had it for 2 years before budget evaporated. the student newspaper just came back this year in a smaller format. anyone can write stuff for it. anyone can sign up to write teacher assigned articles. students can freely write about whatever they want. whether it gets published is another question. the teacher who runs the paper sucks at her position and many of the authors have tried to get someone else to take her spot but our principle, who doens't believe in petitions and apparently students' opinions of what tehy want to read, refuses to get someone else. on top of the whole school bidget thing, ouur super-intendent just took some huge payement to retire early before his contract went up. this on top of our teachers getting screwed in their pay. they actually matter and do work but get paid poorly. and this pay based on years worked there isn't all that great cause in my experience, alot of the teachers that have been there a long time aren't all that great at teaching stuff. the younger teachers have better teaching methods in my opinion. there are however a select few old teachers who are good at their jobs. 2 of the best teachers i've had retired the year after i had them. on the flip side, i've alos had a couple of young teacher that were horrible. this all ties into how i have little faith in the system and the government. glad this year i finally get to vote. side note: weird random info, i just happen to be listening to "free speech for the dumb" by metallica on my comp while writing this. song's soso so i'm switching back to medeski martin and wood.

on conformity:
**** conformity. sure, there are cliches that people join or just become associated with. there are common themes to clothing aomng them. but those existed back in day when all you were in school to. and don't even try to say they didn't. this is mostly based off of what's available to buy and wear from around you. most of the time, i'm just in cargo pants or jeans and a t-shirt. i ahve other clothes that i wear that could give me the appearence that i'm in othe cliches but i wear em cause they fit and are comfortable. sure i don't wear some of them that much cause i don't think i look good in them. i'm not going out of my way to look like some else. i consider myself pretty unique. in what i do and what i wear. i also go to a very divers school. i go to randolph highschool. it's among the top 5 most diverse schools in at least massachusetts and it might have also gotten among top 10 diverse in new england. this is based on minorities present and languages spoken, among other things. there are alot of stereotypes broken in my school. white people are actually a minority. there's more interacial dating (i myself have a black girlfriend) and the 2 races don't try to intigrate as much (read: "malibou's most wanted" style). we've actually had fieldtrips from other schools come to ours to witness "diversity in harmony". teachers who've taught at other schools that are a majority white or majority black all say that randolph is a better experience because more open-mindness on values different from one's own. i work with people from holbrook, a neighboring, smaller, town. they're alot more sensitive to their own ideas being challenged and suck at debating things and compromising. there are more too, but it's late and i'm tired. update later

on morals:
my parents have basicly left me alone to adjust my own morals since i was about 8. i'm kind, considerate, understanding, and are able to compromise as i see fit. i'm often complimented on being the nice guy. i've gotten 4 sportsmanship awards for sports (including football this year by the patriot league, as in all the coaches of the league vote on this stuff, and it was my first year playing football in my life!). i accept teh fact that everyody's different and ahve different opinions of all things. i'll voice my opinion on certain things taht i feel strongly about and will offer it to those who ask when they have a differnent one. especially if i consider theirs opinion currupted. sometimes i give up on trying to understadn their reasoning, sometimes i accept theirs as better, sometimes i compromise and we both end up changing our opinions. for instance, i have this one aquintance who really likes hitler. i mean this kid really admires the guy. he's not racist. it's not some white supemecy thing either cause he's from thailand. he's offerd good points about him, among other communists, as well as presented someof his bad aspects. he's changed my opinion of hitler from what is taught in school according to the curriculum (mostly that hitler's was very bad bad man) to a bit more understanding of certain aspects of how his plan might have actually had some possible good points, even though the bad outweighed the good. and no, i'm not some nazi worshipper and neither is he. well he doens't seem like it. i still don't like hitler, but i have a more thorough understanding of him and the system he stood for.


thats it for now. it's 1 in the morn and i'm out. plus my typing is getting worse and worse. i'll add more later if i remember. it's all connnected. really.

[Slider]

You and your friend are missing the most important lesson offered by Hitler and the Nazis: Unchecked fascism brings oppression and war, and there's usually scapegoating in the form of rascism involved.

To become a leader with unquestioned authority, you first have to "show" that there's a threat that justifies it. In the case of the Nazis, that was the Jews. Could have been anybody. Once you have enough of a political base, the oppression starts. Gotta show you mean it, and it helps unite your backers against a common foe. From that point, war is inevitable, since you'll be doing the world a favor by spreading your "truth" and building an empire.

Now substitute terrorists (or gays) for Jews, abu Gharib in the spot for oppression, and, well, we're now working on our third war.

This doesn't mean that there was no threat posed by bin Laden and his ilk, just that everything after Afghanistan was more about a narcissisitic megalomania than about justifiable defense. Bush has an advantage over Hitler in that he didn't have to completely fabricate his foe, but he certainly did redefine it.

To come back to the topic at hand, I agree with you about why kids are so complacent these days. Life has been easy in America for a long time. Unfortunately, the implication is that it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

Slider