John Kerry on a bike

[pk]

I heard from TGrimble that Kerry was recently at Belmont Wheelworks getting fitted for cleats. Today, someone posted me this picture of him on his road bike.

We should get him on a mountain bike!

pk

[jsb2dc]

There's at least some hope for him. No gaudy jersey the same color as his bike, no shaved legs (there's been a long thread on that subject on the Rage list this week...) He might fit in if the MTB crowd gets to him soon enough.

[T Grimble]

No gaudy jersey


Good point!

PK, Do we have a NEMBA Jersey we can send him? It would be great to see our colors on him doing laps aroun 1600 Pennsilvania Ave. That is if he makes it that far.

[pk]

PK, Do we have a NEMBA Jersey we can send him? It would be great to see our colors on him doing laps aroun 1600 Pennsilvania Ave. That is if he makes it that far.


I like the way you think!

This note (and a jersey) already went out in this morning's mail!

Senator John Kerry
304 Russell Bldg. Third Floor
Washington D.C. 20510


March 30, 2004


Dear Senator Kerry,

I recently saw a picture of you riding your Serotta road bike wearing a Boston College T-shirt, and thought you might appreciate your next ride in a real cycling jersey that would remind you of your New England roots.

Our organization is dedicated to promoting responsible riding, caring for our public parks, and preserving open space. It meant a lot to us to receive a note from you congratulating us on winning an Environmental Merit award from the EPA last year, and since that time we've become the first organization of our ilk to purchase and protect open space in Milford, Massachusetts.

Please accept this jersey from us, and continue to fight to protect the environment and promote healthy lifestyles through cycling, on and off-road.

Sincerely,


Philip Keyes
Executive Director


PS: Should you ever wish to join us for a gentle mountain bike ride, let me know.

[T Grimble]

Scary! Some people think we look alike also. :o

Good letter. Let us know if you get a response.

[smashitup]

i saw him doing some backcountry snowboarding on the news once

[I Are Baboon]

You mean if I run for President, you guys will hook me with with a free NEMBA jersey? SWEET!

BABOON FOR PRESIDENT IN 2008!!!!

[MMcG]

You mean if I run for President, you guys will hook me with with a free NEMBA jersey? SWEET!

BABOON FOR PRESIDENT IN 2008!!!!


Hey IAB - I'd be honored to be your campaign manager! ;) ;D

[radair]

i saw him doing some backcountry snowboarding on the news once


I saw him on the news snowboarding at a ski resort a week or two ago. He wasn't ripping it up like Dr. Toddski, but the guy could at least link turns.

Great thinking Tom & PK! Having an MTB ally in the White House could really open some doors. Off-road cycling in Yosemite, anyone?

[Z]

He's also a really avid windsurfer, too.

[heckler]

As far as I know, heis mainly a roadie. He finished the long day of the PMC last year (or the one before) in the top 20-30 riders. That's not too shabby for a 60 yr old!

[Rych]

Yeah, here is your future mountain biker.

[CouchingTiger]

At least he didn't take the pigskin in the teeth ;)

He's a big guy anyhow, and big guy's aren't supposed to catch.

-Couch

===============================
*** Bush for ex-President in 2004 ***
===============================

[sizlinseagulsoup]

PK, Do we have a NEMBA Jersey we can send him? It would be great to see our colors on him doing laps aroun 1600 Pennsilvania Ave. That is if he makes it that far.


I like the way you think!

This note (and a jersey) already went out in this morning's mail!


Too bad I hadn't read this earlier. I intern for Kerry, could have made sure he got it (most of the mail doesn't actually make anywhere near Kerry). Especially at the D.C. Senate office...

[pk]

Well, call up the DC office and throw your weight around so he'll get it!

Actually, I'm pretty sure that he will--especially since it's a bike shirt!

pk

[sizlinseagulsoup]

I'll try to talk to Cam Kerry tomorrow (his brother). He should be able to give John the heads up so no one in the office takes it.

[C.P.]

An Article Link:

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article_print.php?id=3655

[Billy]

"Senator John Kerry's shoulder injury may stem from a 1992 bicycle accident that left him with broken ribs and a fractured collarbone." (Dr. Bertram Zarins, Chief of Sports Medicine Service, Boston, MA)

[johnbryanpeters]

...gentle mountain bike ride...
unh hunh, unh hunh, unh hunh... ::) ;)

[Slider]

Since no one has come out and said it in this forum I will:

BUSH ABSOLUTELY MUST BE STOPPED. I can't think of anyone better than a genuine cyclist, who happens to have the right policies.

I guess I could give up on the bike riding, and even some of the policies, AS LONG AS BUSH IS STOPPED.

I feel better already.

Slider

[Rych]

What exactly are the right policies? Kerry seems to be on both sides of most issues. Are you talking about the green issue? He seems like a real environmentalist, unless it’s in his back yard.
"I will be ‘the true environmental President’,” “but when I say it, its not just rhetoric – I have the record to back it up. Having seen the big wind farm at South Point on the Big Island of Hawaii’s (the southernmost tip of the United States, and quite a windy locale), I think that if there’s a suitable windy location, yeah, put up a wind farm. It won’t provide all of the energy a population might need, but it would certainly help."
But Kerry opposes Camp Wind windmill farm on Horseshoe Shoal, seven miles off Nantucket Island because the wind farm will ruin his respective views. He’ll whine and complain about getting away from fossil fuel consumption, but when offered the chance to do so in his own backyard, he doesn’t want it because it’s not aesthetically pleasing. Seems someone wants to have it both ways.

[AA]

Woo Hoo a political debate!

I've got to admit I'm not thrilled with the way the Bush White House is handling itself these days and I voted for the guy. Having said that Rych makes a good point about Kerry, he is one wishy-washy guy.

So what would Kerry bring that Bush doesn’t? Decisions and policy making have a lot to do with the balance of power in the house and senate, supreme court appointments (if any come up) and the cabinet that the president surrounds himself with. The president is more the spokesman than the bottom line.

Either way I'm not thrilled with the choices come November, and to be honest I haven’t yet decided whom to vote for.

JOHN KERRY on a bike.

I'll give the Bush the 'nod' for another quad

[mtbtom]

John Kerry went to Yale, then volunteered for a combat position in Vietnam. He did his time, came back and stood up for what he believed in. He continued this practice as a top prosecutor in Massachusetts and after being elected to public office in 1984.

Dub-ya used his Daddy's oil $$$ clout to get out of serving in Vietnam - opting for a cushy USA frat-house deployment with others of his ilk that had similar influence.

Then Bush basically did nothing notable except partied and ruin a baseball team until he was somehow elected president.

He's the kind of person you appoint to something where there are no real consequences to royally screwing it up. He's a talking head with DONALD H. RUMSFELD etc. pulling the strings.

Every time he opens his mouth and says something stupid or appeals to the lowest common mental denominator (i.e. the bubba vote) I'm embarrassed for our fine country.

Wow. The eight Clinton years must have been embarrassing as hell for you then

Actually, i must say that i've been embarrassed by some of the bulls##t that all of our Presidents have pulled

And now that i think about it, the alternative would have been Gore. Holy Crap, give me a break

[Rych]

John Kerry went to Yale, then volunteered for a combat position in Vietnam. He did his time, came back and stood up for what he believed in. He continued this practice as a top prosecutor in Massachusetts and after being elected to public office in 1984.

Dub-ya used his Daddy's oil $$$ clout to get out of serving in Vietnam - opting for a cushy USA frat-house deployment with others of his ilk that had similar influence.

Then Bush basically did nothing notable except partied and ruin a baseball team until he was somehow elected president.

He's the kind of person you appoint to something where there are no real consequences to royally screwing it up. He's a talking head with DONALD H. RUMSFELD etc. pulling the strings.

Every time he opens his mouth and says something stupid or appeals to the lowest common mental denominator (i.e. the bubba vote) I'm embarrassed for our fine country.

Bush went to Yale, then joined the national gaurd. Did he do this to get out of going to Vietnam? Probably. Did his dad's money have anything to do with it? Probably not. My Dad was the son of a leather factory worker, but somehow he was able to join this elite club called the National Guard to avoid overseas deployment.

You say Bush did nothing but ruin a baseball team? He made millions of the sale of the team. It sounds to me like he has some business sense. Let’s not forget Bush was elected Governor of Texas.
Kerry made his money the old fashion way, he married it.
I don't know why the Dems hate Bush so much. He's pretty much a Democrat in elephant clothing. All the gimmie girl, bonbon eating welfare moms are still cashing a check that come out of my and your paycheck.
One thing I will say about Kerry, I don't seem have the hatred for him that I felt for Clinton/Gore. Maybe it does have something to do with his military record. Kerry's got what...3 purple heart medals? And he earned all of them in 4 month? I wonder if that's a record. Has anyone ever heard how those medals were earned? I'm not saying he didn't earn them, it just that everyone know John McCain's war story. What's Kerry’s?

[skyline69]

I would hardly call receiving 3 purple hearts (earning them) . Trust me I have one, Kuwait City 91'
For Kerry to receive 3 in four months is remarkable, today most soldiers go home after receiving a little scratch. It's obvious you have no idea what it is like being a soldier.

By the way, Bush is my guy.

[CouchingTiger]

All that I can say is that we all know folks who were employed in well paying jobs but are now basically unemployable because they've been out of the game too long (unable to find jobs). The fact that the Gov expects folks with 4+ years of college training in a professional field and years of experience to just "migrate" to something else, is insane.

We are in a war that is unwinable. No good has come out of this war to date; no good is likely to ever come out of this war. Kids are dying every day in Iraq and for what.

Fortunately, people who are make $200k a year need and therefore got a $4k/year tax break while the poorest ~10% of the nation (those at or below poverty level) got nothing.

The executive leadership had an agenda. That agenda is currently being played out. I voted for it too but I'll be damned if I make that mistake again.

Politicians are politicians. You don't become a successful politician by being an extremist or by always doing what is right. You ride the fence and wave the rhetoric flag. The best we can hope for in a politician is that they will listen to what we are saying and promise to do it (to get elected) and then actually follow through on some part of that, and actually look out for the masses.

-Couch

[Rych]

Crouching tiger...You want to give people at the poverty level a tax break? You have to pay taxes in order for it to be called a break. You want handouts, or government redistribution of wealth. Welcome socialism. Its cool if you think that way, just call it what it is. BTW I don't make $200k, but enjoy the child tax credit, and a break from the marriage penalty.

Skyline...I think you mistook my post. I also think it’s odd that he got 3 purple hearts. That's why I'd like to hear why they "given" to him.

[skyline69]

Sorry rych, didn't mean to come across as a prick.

[mtbtom]

That's why I'd like to hear why they "given" to him.

Ask the ORACLE ...

December 2, 1968:
Kerry gets his first taste of intense combat, and is wounded in the arm. He is awarded a Purple Heart.

January, 1969:
Kerry takes command of a new Swift boat, completing 18 missions over 48 days, almost all in the Mekong Delta area.

February 20, 1969:
Kerry is wounded again, taking shrapnel in the left thigh, after a gunboat battle. He is awarded a second Purple Heart.

February 28, 1969:
Kerry and his boat crew, coming under attack while patroling in the Mekong Delta, decide to counterattack. In the middle of the ensuing firefight, Kerry leaves his boat, pursues a Viet Cong fighter into a small hut, kills him, and retreives a rocket launcher. He is awarded a Silver Star.

March 13, 1969:
A mine detonates near Kerry's boat, wounding him in the right arm. He is awarded a third Purple Heart. He is also awarded a Bronze Star for pulling a crew member, who had fallen overboard, back on the boat amidst a firefight.

April, 1969:
According to Navy rules, sailors that have been wounded three times in combat are eligible to be transfered to the U.S. for noncombat duty. Kerry is transferred to desk duty in Brooklyn, NY.

First of all. I habour more fear of the American buissnes "machine" than i do of the Gov. I believe it's been mostly missmanagement and the average publics inherent greed that built and toppled a false economy.
Second, we are engaged in a war that" traditionally unwinable" to begin with, similar to Vietnam. This could very well be a Vietnam or "Drug War" senario if let to follow those parameters, and you are correct, there will be no winners unless a new set of rules are followed. This is the new "warm war politics" of the future. Making sure we win without upsetting legal, human, political and social rights of others. An extremely tough row to hoe. Now that it's begun, for whatever reason, reasons which we are all now looking into, and by whomever, it must be brought to an equitable end or we all (the entire civilized world will be "fighting" this "war" for many decades to come,with much devastation,far more than we have percieved to this point. My $.02

[sizlinseagulsoup]

"I don't know why the Dems hate Bush so much. He's pretty much a Democrat in elephant clothing."

What are you talking about? Anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-freedom of press, anti-environment. Yeah, the Democratic party are all of those.

Moreover, to say that Kerry wants the best of both worlds is ludicrious when you are comparing him to Bush. Bush wants to cut taxes AND raise spending. Good work! I think I'd rather have a man who is willing to except one world of economics.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Just to kill the flip-flop debate before you guys even start it...

# Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
# Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
# Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
# Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
# Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
# Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
# Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.
# Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.
# Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
# Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.
# Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.
# Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
# Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
# Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.
# Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote
# Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.
# Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

Ah yes. The synchronous bistable poltician. Gotta love 'em

[CouchingTiger]

Crouching tiger...You want to give people at the poverty level a tax break? You have to pay taxes in order for it to be called a break. You want handouts, or government redistribution of wealth. Welcome socialism. Its cool if you think that way, just call it what it is. BTW I don't make $200k, but enjoy the child tax credit, and a break from the marriage penalty.



Well, yea, I think the poor people deserve a break as much as I do. I also looked up the wrong stat when I was checking the poverty level, so I am mis-using the term poverty. I'm talking about families at $30k or less. 2004 Nat'l poverty level is much lower than that.

Anyhow, I can argue all day that I pay more than my fair share of taxes. However, I'm not struggling to make ends meet and really don't need, nor we I really notice the money. All that I'm saying is that if there is a break, it should be across the boards. I don't believe in welfare or socialism. I believe that we all have the same opportunities in life, some just choose to make of them while others don't. I grew up in a poverty level household in rural VT. I still managed to better myself and I don't feel I was ever given a free ride nor did I expect it.

So, all I say is equal for all. If that means 2% less on the tax rate, it should mean that for everyone, not just the richest. Now I understand that a portion of that cut is from the marriage penalty but that's not all of it. I have this feeling that GW is giving back that which he doesn't have and we are only going to end up getting a double hit down the road.

-Couch

[Rych]

Crouching tigger...I completely disagree with your opinion on fiscal policy. But at least you have an opinion. BTW...I agree with you 100% when you say "So, all I say is equal for all." That's cool everybody pays the same rate...Maybe you and I can go work together on the John Forbes '08 campaign.

Monty...I was going to answer your Bush flip flops 1 by 1 but decided to respond to the source directly:

http://www.anybodybutbush.info/archives/000210.html

[sizlinseagulsoup]

The source is actually DailyKOS.

[Slider]

Maybe my post wasn't such a great idea, though we do have more mannered disagreements here than in most Web forums. We are bikers first of all and need unity on that front.

So, as bikers, let's focus on one issue that is relevant - the environment. Bush has the worst environmental record of any recent president, hands down. All the economic equality in the world won't mean much if we breathe polluted air, and kick up toxic soil as we pedal.

Bush is not the candidate for a mountian biker.

Slider

[AA]

Dont ever apoligize for having an opinion. I think that most people on this forum are mature enough to post how they feel without people getting offended. It is also OK to disagree with people.

The whole democrat vs republican thing can be troubling. I love the outdoors and am opposed to much of the republican policy on oil exploration and conservation in general. I am however in favor of how the republicans generally spend more on defense (mainly because that is how I make my living, in the defense industry). When it comes to social policy I am more a libiterian wanting less goverment involvement in most things. I have never voted along party lines, I have always chosen the candidate that I thought was the best at that time given the choice.

For the record here in my voting history:

2000- Bush
1996- Clinton
1992- Clinton
1988- Bush
November of 1984 I was 3 weeks shy of my 18th birthday, I would have voted for Reagan.

Ultimately, i'm hoping this thing will go down with a broader margin of "victory".(irregardless of who suceeds) These 51/49 % deals reveal a message of non-unity which is disturbing

[Rych]

Yikes AA. You sound like a voice of reason! There's certainly no place for that in a political debate;)

I think as it stands right now Bush win in a landslide, however if this happens:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/04/06/for_kerry_aides_mccain_would_fit_bill_as_running_m ate/

Kerry will win big. McCain will swing independent voters to Kerry

Everybody talks about the country being divided among party lines as a bad thing. I for one think it’s a good thing. I've been a republican my whole life, but a certainly don't want a Republican dominated congress. If we had that, we'd have those same problems that he Massachusetts Legislature has...no sense of checks or balances.

[CouchingTiger]

Crouching tigger...I completely disagree with your opinion on fiscal policy. But at least you have an opinion. BTW...I agree with you 100% when you say "So, all I say is equal for all." That's cool everybody pays the same rate...Maybe you and I can go work together on the John Forbes '08 campaign.

Monty...I was going to answer your Bush flip flops 1 by 1 but decided to respond to the source directly:

http://www.anybodybutbush.info/archives/000210.html



I'm waiting for "the Boss" to throw his hat back into the ring ;)

I am fiscally ultra conservative in the true sense, however I'm having trouble coming to grips with the fact that we are letting high-tech professional jobs, which are arguably the basis for the last run of economic prosperity, move offshore. What's worse is that the Fed is claiming it will help the economy. Is it just me or doesn't this seem like a pyramid plan?

If we take high-tech jobs that pay $100k/year and require people to have high tech devices (workstations, monitors, laptops, peripherals and software) and replace 90% of them with "unskilled" service industry jobs that pay roughly half and require people to have leaf blowers, rakes and lawnmowers, who is going to buy the high tech goods? Remember, this really is a global economy so if the US tanks, everyone tanks.

The issue is that the US is the "almighty consumer". Without the US consumer, every domestic and foreign market would faulter. I think the reason we've had such prosperous times in the past 10 years is simply because the pre Y2K job market fueled the US consumption machine and since then the Fed has been stoking the fire with lower and lower interest rates and similar incentives.

Problem is, this can't go on forever. There is currently no basis for it. I think we are a country of people who are mainly financially leveraged beyond our means. Depending on how the chips fall with regards to a rebound, many many people may get caught short. If we start to see large scale default on bank loans (primarily the $1.2M McMansions that are all the rage), what's going to happen to the realestate market and then the rest of the economy. I can't image what a large scale sector meltdown would do to an already struggling economy.

-Couch

[Slider]

No apologies from me! I just don't want to upset the balance of this forum, which is really pretty cool.

We do better when we stay bike-focused.

Slider

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Let's not forget that Republicans have been flat out defending Kerry. McCain has made his opinions of the senator known. Additionally many Republicans have defended Kerry on his views of foreign policy and the P.A.T.R.O.I.T. act. This PR was released today: http://www.ourcampaigns.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/NewsDetail.html?&NewsID=10404

Rych, where are you getting "Bush will win by a landslide?" Have you looked at the latest polls?

Zogby International - Kerry/Bush 47/45
Rasmussen Reports - Kerry/Bush 47/45
CBS News - Kerry/Bush 48/43
FoxNews - Kerry/Bush 44/44

The fact that FoxNews has them tied says a lot since it is coming from a conservative bias.

[Rych]

Monty....A Landslide victory prediction is strictly my opinion. I think the polls are influenced by the fact that Kerry had been battling in a competitive primary season, giving him lots of exposure. I wouldn't start taking the polls too serious either way until mid summer.

Crouch...I don't know the answer to this, but is it Bush's policies forcing jobs overseas? Or does it have something to do with NAFTA. All I really know about NAFTA is what the acronym stands for. Maybe its a combination.

The way i see it, it's going to take one hell of a well thought out plan with far more than simple tax incentives to keep jobs in this country in the long term. I'd be less worried about just adding jobs at this point and more as to giving corporations incentive to operate in this country to begin with. Better find a way to keep them here before they all reincorporate on foreign soil taking the jobs and the $$$ with them.

[Rych]

The way i see it, it's going to take one hell of a well thought out plan with far more than simple tax incentives to keep jobs in this country in the long term. I'd be less worried about just adding jobs at this point and more as to giving corporations incentive to operate in this country to begin with. Better find a way to keep them here before they all reincorporate on foreign soil taking the jobs and the $$$ with them.


What can Bush do for incentives?

1. Easy up environmental standards....This is when the Dems go nuts
2. Tax breaks...The Dems will just hammer him for corporate welfare
3. Put limits on punitive damages corporation have to pay from lawsuits...trail lawyer lobbiest will prevent this.

[mtbtom]

All I really know about NAFTA is what the acronym stands for. Maybe its a combination.


Actually it has nothing at all to do with NAFTA and a lot more to do with improvements in capacity of fiber optic lines/data transmission. It's trival now ( and very inexpensive ) for corporations to transmit data overseas and back.

Any good mountain biking in SRI-LANKA?????

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Rych - The fact that Kerry is ahead of Bush while have 100 million dollars less to fight Bush in the media war is amazing. Dole got destroyed by Clinton for this very reason but Kerry is still managing to come out on top.

"2. Tax breaks...The Dems will just hammer him for corporate welfare"
Kerry is actually calling for a corporate tax break for domestic corporations to create more jobs.

Maybe we'll get to see how the "Mfg Jobs Credit" (tax break) will work. Hey PK, you were just trying to be PC and look what happened

[Mr_Cheeze]

Keep jobs in this country... yea, that would be most ideal. Unfortunately, the minimum wage is not going to go down any time in the near future. It becomes all too easy a decision for CEOs to outsource and use foreign labor when it's just so dramatically cheaper. I'm not saying it's right, but certainly understandable. Neither Bush nor Kerry will do much to guarantee jobs stay here. Corporate and small business tax breaks are a good thing and go a long way towards creating jobs. That has been proven. That's what we need more of.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

What we need is an international fair-trade (not free-trade) organization that sets up a universal minimum wage (adjusted for every economy, naturally) with fair environmental standards that are feasible for every nation to meet (clearly these standards would have to be adjusted for every nation, since developing countries could never meet our standards). If a nation refused to join, we could just impose sizable tariffs on the nations making it less-cost-efficient to outsource to those nations. Unfortunately, I doubt we will see a politician address these issues soon.

Tarriffs, i love tarriffs, so does my cat

Basically i see this whole flip/flop issue as fodder and incite for "bears of little brain". Flip/flop is a natural political state and i believe most educated Americans are pretty much above that. Although there is a percentage of voters that all politicians count on in the end, they are the flip/flops

[RubbaBubba]

Did MTBTOM say something about Bush appealing to the Bubba vote???? Is this getting personal??????

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Tarriffs, i love tarriffs, so does my cat


Bush loves steal tarriffs as well :-P

"Personal" Hell no. We all have to "break bread and drink beer" together no matter what the outcome. It's just politics man

Forgive me for my momentary lapse. Yes, to "break bread and drink beer" but more importantly(?) "To share and promote mountain biking" (more important than beer? ok, i'll concede)

[RubbaBubba]

Ah juss ment that if'n Bush wuz trine to peal to mah low demanater, he dun mist it. He en dun sh*t fur me ner enny uv tother Bubbas.
Peace!

[sizlinseagulsoup]

...?

Hey, easy on my man. He only talked that way when he first(2000) campainged in the West, Midwest, South, Soutwest, Southnorthwest, and Westsouthnorth. He trys not to talk that way anymoe. And i appreciates it. Besides they was "chillin" in the audience an he needed to appeal to dem. But he's still my man...? Obviously your IQ is higher than a bear with little brain...?

[AA]

Man did this thread get hijacked or what...... hey I heard that John Kerry was at Wheel Works the other day, we should send him a NEMBA jersey

[sizlinseagulsoup]

AA - Read the beginning of the thread. We already tried that.

How the hell did these monkeys get like this

GAME OVER

[sizlinseagulsoup]

What? I'm completely lost on that one...

[AA]

AA - Read the beginning of the thread. We already tried that.


That was my attempt at humor (obviously not a very good attempt) Kevin your a pretty serious guy for a college freshman, you should be out getting drunk and trying to pick up girls, Tuesday is a big party night isnt it? ;D (again, an attempt at humor)

[Rych]

Monty----All I have to say is, you better not ever need to ask me for a tube on the trail;)

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Always "kerry" a spare (double shot of humour attempt there)

[sizlinseagulsoup]

AA - yeah, i'm totally gonna get tore up while watching Queer Eye right now, I'll be all relaxed after that ::) ;D

Always "kerry" a spare (double shot of humour attempt there)


I like it!

Queer Eye, nah Scrubs, cool Tubes,2 and i'll share with anyone

[Tim]

Tarriffs, i love tarriffs, so does my cat


Bush loves steal tarriffs as well :-P


Too deep for me.




It appears to me that once again we have a fine choice of self-serving buttheads to fill the Oval Office. At least Slick and Hilly didn't make any bones about the fact that they wanted the job for the prestige (and the chix I guess in Slick's case).

Can we add "None of the above" to the ballot?

Tim

[nhiker]

How the hell did these monkeys get like this

GAME OVER


Can someone explain this to me? What is the reference here?

[sizlinseagulsoup]

That's what I was asking....

[Mr_Cheeze]

Can we add "None of the above" to the ballot?

Yea, it's called Libertarian. Doesn't matter who runs. Doesn't matter that they won't win. They're getting my vote as a protest. This notion that people have that third party voting is a waste is missing the point of it. It's about having a voice. Should the Green and Libertarian parties combine for 10 - 15% of the vote, that's a major wakeup call to the other major parties and to those people who previously thought that it couldn't be done.

This two party system is broken.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

If you're gonna protest, you should vote Nader, since he has the best chance of actually amassing any amount of votes.

I also hope your from Massachusetts, because your vote doesn't count here.
If you're from NH, protest voting is just... stupid.

[MrsCouch]

Be careful with the protest voting. I can remember an election in Ontario where so many people exercised their protest vote, that we ended up with a socialist (third party) government for four years! I admit, I was one of the ones who woke up the morning after the election wondering what I had done .....

Yeah, give the libertarians more momentum and power in a protest vote. Holy sh$$ batman. Just what we need. I like the idea of the bipartisan Pres/V.Pres. Hmm, just which one would be which. Hmm, Bush/Kerry or Kerry/Bush

[Rych]

Monty---Now it all makes sense. You're still in college. You can still afford to vote with your heart. But wait to you graduate, get married, have a couple of kids, own a house, and realize that better than 50% of you dough goes to the government. Then you'll begin to vote with your brain. Just so you realize what that means...Every dime I make from January through June goes to the government.

50%??? I'm glad i don't live in the same country you do

[sizlinseagulsoup]

A vote for a Republican is a vote for
-War (and, if you want to say you're a Republican because of economics, then how do you justify wasting billions of dollars)
-Poverty
-Women's rights being taken away
-Hatred towards gays
-Destroying the enivornment
-Wasting money on MARS
-Removal of basic freedoms (privacy)

So, who's voting with his brain again?

A vote for a Republican is a vote for
-War (and, if you want to say you're a Republican because of economics, then how do you justify wasting billions of dollars)
-Poverty
-Women's rights being taken away
-Hatred towards gays
-Destroying the enivornment
-Wasting money on MARS
-Removal of basic freedoms (privacy)

So, who's voting with his brain again?



Oh yea, now i remember. When the Dem's were IN we didn't have any of those things

[knucklebuste]

The whole system is just way off. Nothing but back stabbing and whatnot, so they can win and get all their buddies hooked up when they get elected. I want no part of it. Kerry or Bush. Doesn't matter who wins, does Knuckle's life change whether Bush wins or Kerry wins? NOPE
WOW, maybee they'll be a "TAX CUT FOR ALL" and they'll send me a check for $200 like bush did a couple years ago. WOWEE, $200, as the Government wastes endless money on things you have no idea are so ridiculous. I don't intend to derail this thread, I just don't understand why people are so into voting. Yeah, Bush stinks, vote him out, I get it, but what do we gain with Kerry, he changes his mind on issues daily. I don't like either of them.
Knuckle

[Rych]

50%??? I'm glad i don't live in the same country you do


10 dog...I'm sure you do pay upto 50% in taxes when you think about it

Federal income tax
State Income tax
Property Tax
Excise Tax
Sales Tax
Meals Tax
Tolls
Gas Tax
Sin Taxes such as liquor and cigarettes.
Telephone Sevice Tax
Cable TV Service tax


Plus other taxes I can't even think of
Only a portion of the taxes you pay get confiscated out of your pay check.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Oh yea, now i remember. When the Dem's were IN we didn't have any of those things

Kerry won't be as bigoted as Clinton. Kerry was smart enough to not support Clinton's unconstitutional D.O.M.A. bill. I also recognize that Clinton thought it would be cool to do a few days worth of bombings, but I'd rather see that then 10000+ people die in Iraq only to make their living conditions worse than what they already were.

[Rych]

The whole system is just way off. Nothing but back stabbing and whatnot, so they can win and get all their buddies hooked up when they get elected. I want no part of it. Kerry or Bush. Doesn't matter who wins, does Knuckle's life change whether Bush wins or Kerry wins? NOPE
WOW, maybee they'll be a "TAX CUT FOR ALL" and they'll send me a check for $200 like bush did a couple years ago. WOWEE, $200, as the Government wastes endless money on things you have no idea are so ridiculous. I don't intend to derail this thread, I just don't understand why people are so into voting. Yeah, Bush stinks, vote him out, I get it, but what do we gain with Kerry, he changes his mind on issues daily. I don't like either of them.
Knuckle


Knuck...That $200 was a rebate from the previous years taxes. You now have less money confiscated out of your paycheck. I pay roughly $1200 less under Bush, than under Clinton. And I probably spent a good portion of that money on Bike stuff.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Gas Tax

Don't for for Bush then, his VP wanted to raise the gas tax in 1986 by billions of dollars. Moreover, Bush's Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, Gregory Mankiw, supported the 1993 50 cent gas tax increase saying it would have helped reduce global warming, traffic congestion, and would make America's roads safer.

[knucklebuste]

Yeah, typical government logic. Raise the gas tax 50 cents and people will stop driving. NGH. Even with the gas@ $3 a gallon, people will still pay it and still need to drive. I can't understand how idiots like that even get into government. We need some fresh young minds in there, not fossils.

Knuckle

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Knuck...That $200 was a rebate from the previous years taxes. You now have less money confiscated out of your paycheck. I pay roughly $1200 less under Bush, than under Clinton. And I probably spent a good portion of that money on Bike stuff.


http://www.bushtax.com/?q=node/view/42 - Any children going to college anytime soon? Sounds like that 1200 will kiss itself away pretty quickly.

Another good opinion piece http://www.johnmccrory.com/wrote.asp?this=42
I believe Boston's T fares just increased too. But I'm in college, I don't pay taxes so my opinions are not valid ;D :P :D

[Rych]

Ok---So Umass cost $1000 more...I'll still net out $200 ahead. In fact I could take that $1200 and put it in a 486 college fund. Over the next 17 years...That will pay a good portion of her tuition.

[nhiker]

If you're gonna protest, you should vote Nader, since he has the best chance of actually amassing any amount of votes.

I also hope your from Massachusetts, because your vote doesn't count here.
If you're from NH, protest voting is just... stupid.


So maybe you can explain the thinking behind the nh stupid protest vote for me...As I am stupid and need this spelled out.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Seeing as though college tutition is going up around 5% a year, I don't see how putting it into a 529 plan (I'm not sure where you got the 486, I think you got college funds mixed up with abortion pills, unless I am making a mistake) will really be able to pay for college. Besides, you spent all your money on bike stuff, and bike stuff depreciates over time, not collect interest.

I'm not trying to be a jerk (even though I have done a good job coming off that way), just don't say a college student doesn't know anything about taxes / owning a house. You have to remember that we all just make a $160,000 investment.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

If you're gonna protest, you should vote Nader, since he has the best chance of actually amassing any amount of votes.

I also hope your from Massachusetts, because your vote doesn't count here.
If you're from NH, protest voting is just... stupid.


So maybe you can explain the thinking behind the nh stupid protest vote for me...As I am stupid and need this spelled out.


NH is a swing state. You'd be better off settling for whichever evil you like better since a vote in NH actually matters.
http://www.ourcampaigns.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/RaceDetail.html?&RaceID=414
Had those 22000 voted for Gore, Bush would have lost NH. The same protestors could through the entire election again.

[Rych]

Knuck...That $200 was a rebate from the previous years taxes. You now have less money confiscated out of your paycheck. I pay roughly $1200 less under Bush, than under Clinton. And I probably spent a good portion of that money on Bike stuff.


http://www.bushtax.com/?q=node/view/42 - Any children going to college anytime soon? Sounds like that 1200 will kiss itself away pretty quickly.

Another good opinion piece http://www.johnmccrory.com/wrote.asp?this=42
I believe Boston's T fares just increased too. But I'm in college, I don't pay taxes so my opinions are not valid ;D :P :D


Lol, I think your right about the abortion pill....and BTW I for the right to choose, to a point. That point shouldn't be much beyond 4.5 months.

And why should I subsidize someones ride around boston? If the market can't support it, it should go away.

[Mr_Cheeze]

I'm not sure which of you are less steeped in reality, Monty or 10 Dog. I'll start with Monty.

What's the difference if one votes for Libertarians or Nader? Neither have a chance in hell to win. The point is to send a message. You just like Nader better because he's even more Socialist than the Democrats.

And 10 Dog, wouldn't want to give the Libertarians "more power." That's a joke, right? I mean, with all of the power and influence they already have and all. ??? We wouldn't want to chance having a party that actually believes in less government and, get this crazy notion, personal responsibility. Oh, and when you add up all forms of taxation, yes we certainly do pay more than 50% of our earned income to taxation. How much of that is improperly represented? I would say about 40% of it.

It's nice to be so young and naively idealistic. I remember those days.

[nhiker]

If you're gonna protest, you should vote Nader, since he has the best chance of actually amassing any amount of votes.

I also hope your from Massachusetts, because your vote doesn't count here.
If you're from NH, protest voting is just... stupid.


So maybe you can explain the thinking behind the nh stupid protest vote for me...As I am stupid and need this spelled out.


NH is a swing state. You'd be better off settling for whichever evil you like better since a vote in NH actually matters.
http://www.ourcampaigns.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/RaceDetail.html?&RaceID=414
Had those 22000 voted for Gore, Bush would have lost NH. The same protestors could through the entire election again.


Once again someone with an agenda wants to tell those of us who go elsewhere what we would have been better off doing. In my stupid opinion my vote for a libertarian or green party candidate is not a waste because my intent is to not reward the status quo with a vote but to help prop up a potential third party which we desperately need in our current democracy.
I am not naive I understand that at this time and place it will likely be one of the two major party candidates which will be sitting in the white house in 2005. But this does not mean that I need to be one of the sheep voting for one of the two. You say what I would be better off doing and no offence Kevin that is an ancient and ignoble political statement. I am glad you feel passion about something here but please don't presume to tell the rest of us what would be best for us.

[mtbtom]

And why should I subsidize someones ride around boston? If the market can't support it, it should go away.


The market "can't support" a lot of things which in turn leads the Government. to pick up the slack.

Are you in favor of tearing down electrical and phone lines to rural areas because the "market can't support it" ?

How about government subsidies which keep the price of gasoline lower that it naturally would be? ( including the price of going to war for it ) I don't drive a huge car and I don't drive it that often. Why am I subsidizing a 2 hour daily commute for someone's fat S.U.V. ?

Government subsidizes a lot things for various reasons. Public transportation is one of the more deserving things to subsidize because it's good for the environment.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

A third party cannot win a national election without possessing an established base in local and state government.

Random quote you may like...

In Portland, Ore., on Monday, former Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean warned that "a vote for Ralph Nader is the same as a vote for George Bush."

An audience member in Chicago was booed for suggesting something similar.

Nader responded: "What we have to tell the two parties in unmistakable terms is that this country does not belong to two parties."

[Mr_Cheeze]

The market "can't support" a lot of things which in turn leads the Government. to pick up the slack.

Are you in favor of tearing down electrical and phone lines to rural areas because the "market can't support it" ?


Except there is a HUGE difference between things that are necessary for the country to function; like electricity and telephone service and transportation versus things which only matter to a select group of the population, like bike trails or the arts. When a government becomes too big for its own britches, it's time to go on a diet. Unfortunately, we still have too many people who believe that without big government, we will suffer dire consequences. And they believe that because they have been listening to Democrats for too long. That's not to say the Republicans don't believe it either. They just aren't going around screaming that the sky is falling, we need a new program (read: bureaucracy and jobs for my campaign donors) to stop it.

Had those 22000 voted for Gore, Bush would have lost NH. The same protestors could through the entire election again.

Wow, them grapes still be sour, eh?

[tmorash]

But, what really matters is what kind of tires John Kerry uses...oh...what topic is this?

Any thoughts on the electoral process? It seems to me that it causes more damage than good. For example, I completely understand and agree with the idea that a third party vote is a wasted vote. I feel this way because of the electoral process. If we were to eliminate the process and adopt a true majority vote, I feel that a third party would have a much better chance of gaining support.

Backing up a bit, I feel the third party vote is a wasted vote because I truly think that Bush's presidency has had a negative influence on the country. I plan and have been planning to vote for the candidate who has the best chance of beating Bush in an election (provided that they are not a worse option). That said, I do realize that some people feel that Kerry is no improvement over Bush and that some people feel that Bush is a good president. I suppose if I felt that way, I would vote third party for the devil himself. Sorry couldn't help myself at the end there.

[Tim]

But, what really matters is what kind of tires John Kerry uses...oh...what topic is this?

I suppose if I felt that way, I would vote third party for the devil himself. Sorry couldn't help myself at the end there.


She's not running until '08...

All i can say is if you guys are paying 50% or more in overall taxes, you're ... well you need to find some other liabilaties or get a new H&R Block man...or learn to add and subtract,,,or move to a country where they don't tax as much...lol...or well you're screwed

"I am glad you feel passion about something here but please don't presume to tell the rest of us what would be best for us. "

But isn't that what forums are all about. That, and poor me i pay to much taxes, boo hoo hoo

I'm not sure which of you are less steeped in reality, Monty or 10 Dog. I'll start with Monty.

What's the difference if one votes for Libertarians or Nader? Neither have a chance in hell to win. The point is to send a message. You just like Nader better because he's even more Socialist than the Democrats.

And 10 Dog, wouldn't want to give the Libertarians "more power." That's a joke, right? I mean, with all of the power and influence they already have and all. ??? We wouldn't want to chance having a party that actually believes in less government and, get this crazy notion, personal responsibility. Oh, and when you add up all forms of taxation, yes we certainly do pay more than 50% of our earned income to taxation. How much of that is improperly represented? I would say about 40% of it.

It's nice to be so young and naively idealistic. I remember those days.




What are you crapping me?! Less government, yea right. In a society that keeps complaining less government, then evey time something goes sour in the private sector you all start with "why didn't the government do something about that" when you told them to keep their noses out of your freaking buisness.Talk about young and naively idealistic... Holy crap, the freaking libertarians...give me a break...With "less" government we could just all screw each other to death and no one would know who did it and we would be just peachy with that because our civil rights weren't violated.I love it

Oh yeah. I like bikes

[sizlinseagulsoup]

"
What are you crapping me?! Less government, yea right. In a society that keeps complaining less government, then evey time something goes sour in the private sector you all start with "why didn't the government do something about that" when you told them to keep their noses out of your freaking buisness.Talk about young and naively idealistic... Holy crap, the freaking libertarians...give me a break...With "less" government we could just all screw each other to death and no one would know who did it and we would be just peachy with that because our civil rights weren't violated.I love it"

Enron anyone?

Come on guys, don't give up now. This has the potential to blow "Where's the Fire" & "Solid Gold" right out of the water

[minkhiller]

Wow, last time I looked at this thread there was only 2 posts, now there is 8 pages. The real question is...Does anyone know if Kerry is back on his bike yet? :)

[mtbtom]

Except there is a HUGE difference between things that are necessary for the country to function; like electricity and telephone service and transportation versus things which only matter to a select group of the population, like bike trails or the arts.


How about cheap gas for Fat S.U.V.s ? Are those necessary for our country to function ?

Personally, I'd rather that my hard earned cabbage go towards bicycle facilities or the arts than subsidizing the appetite of someone's bombastic road-raging hemi-equipped smog mobile.

Or even all of your wives minivans which by the way don't get much better milage than the average SUV. Or even all the joyriding public amassing 20k-40k on their vehicles thinking themselves fuel frugal because they get ove 25 mpg. Or even all those wonderfull RV's of ever growing popularity of the older baby boomer's getting 6-12mpg driving around the country side looking for FTA. Or even aal these households with 3-5 vehicles so their children can drive to HS evry day and not have to take the bus so they can prove their independence (not on oil). Or even all of us who make about 12 unesessary tpips to basically nowhere each week to amuse ourselves. Or even all us MTB's driving 30 t0 90 minutes each way 2-3 times each week to ride a bike. Or even the plethora of gas guzzuling boat and yachts tied up just of our pristine shores.Or even...Yeah i have an SUV and that attitude pisses me off. I drive less than 10k per year, get 22mph on the hwy, 18 around town. Less milage per year better gas milge than most of my prissy neighbors with their minivans driving mosty no one around most of the time thinking that they are saving the freaking world...BITE ME Next time i'll trade it in for a 350 hp "cute little envirornmentaly responsile sports coupe"

OOOOPPS now you know

Oh yeah, the ARTS, there's something that will save us all

Hell no. Horrible gas milage. Hemi's are for race cars. They don't get good milage either. V6 dammit. Good question though

And oh yeah (not saying your one of them) but i didn't buy a house in Merrimack NH so i could drive to Somerville Ma to work everyday either


Damn, i need to find the monkey who wound me up after dinner

[mtbtom]

Ok I gotta keep this going. One more post and I hit "full member" status.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Well, I'm going to bed again (just slept for 3 hours, I'm such an exciting college student), after successfully sneezing blood today. I'm a wee bit tired. Maybe when I wake up I can figure out something ludicrious to say that will send everyone off on another 3 or 4 pages of flame.

Awake, arise my bloody nosed friend for yet another day our political beliefs we must defend. (and some bs for good measure)

[Rych]

Except there is a HUGE difference between things that are necessary for the country to function; like electricity and telephone service and transportation versus things which only matter to a select group of the population, like bike trails or the arts.


How about cheap gas for Fat S.U.V.s ? Are those necessary for our country to function ?

Personally, I'd rather that my hard earned cabbage go towards bicycle facilities or the arts than subsidizing the appetite of someone's bombastic road-raging hemi-equipped smog mobile.


So what you are saying, and I don't know if your right or wrong, but your saying the government subsidizes gas prices, then turns around and taxes us for the same gas.

2002 Chevy Tahoe Driver. Its a gas guzzler but with a lot of family in the area, it works for us.

[CouchingTiger]

Just a note on fuel economy and vehicles. My wife and I own a Toyota Tundra P/U V8 4x4 and a Toyota Matrix 4cyl 4x4. My truck gets about 19mpg highway. If I put a pair of bikes in the bedrack of the truck, I get 19mpg highway. If I tow my enclosed snowmobile trailer loaded with two machines (both of which are new, more fuel/oil efficient models which we paid extra for), I get about 17mpg.

Now, with the Matrix bare we get 32mpg highway. If you put a roof rack on it, you get 26mpg highway. If you put 2 bikes on that roof rack and try and go over 50mph, you get 21mpg, your top speed is 80mph and it feels like you are driving a lumber wagon if theres any wind. This is consistent with w/ the efficiency we got with two other compacts as well.

My point is simply that to make a vehicle usable for anything but transporting a limited number of persons, your milage quickly suppers. The minivan that gets 25mpg can carry 6 people or 4 people and two tandems and still get 25mpg. My truck will carry 4 people and 4 bikes (or two tandems) and get 19mpg. Our Matrix (or a Subaru or anything like that) would carry two tandems (if I had the adapters) and 4 people and get right around 20mpg (and would have trouble getting out of its own way).

For urban folks who never leave the city, sure, I can see a compact or no rig. For folks who travel though or for rural folks it's a different story.

-Couch

[mtbtom]

I guess it depends on who you choose to believe, Mother Jones or Pat Buchanan ?

The reading I've done on the subject suggests that you are actually paying 1/4 of the actual price of a tank of gas once you factor in all the oil industry tax subsidies received from the federal and state governments.

Also consider other undeniable costs of car culture and gasoline consumption: Air pollution, global warming, deaths from automobile accidents, natural resource depletion from oil drilling and road building, and finally the costs of going to war for oil every few years.

While you may not believe these are "subsidies" in the traditional sense of the word - in reality if something costs society and it is not in turned taxed then it is a subsidy !

I think it's only a matter of time before the SUV goes the way of the dinosaur. I believe in 20 years time we'll look back at the SUV phenomenon and realize how ridiculously wasteful they were.

I got work to do so that's the last I have to say on the subject.

Sayonara...
Tom 8)

[sizlinseagulsoup]

So what you are saying, and I don't know if your right or wrong, but your saying the government subsidizes gas prices, then turns around and taxes us for the same gas.

The subsidies come from different facets of government (federal subsidizes, state taxes). It makes sense.

So. Iguess what you're saying is, I can use as much fuel as i want to, so long as i don't have an SUV. Hmmm, Deja-vu. I remember this from another(s) point(s) in the past.How could have this have happened again(s).

[Mr_Cheeze]

While you may not believe these are "subsidies" in the traditional sense of the word - in reality if something costs society and it is not in turned taxed then it is a subsidy !


Now, that is pure Democrat/socialist thinking, folks. Textbook. Tax everything and let government sort it all out. So, in 20 years, when SUV's will supposedly be "obsolete" ::) we should all be paying about 75% to 80% of our income to the government... if you had it your way, that is.

I'm figuring it is more likely, in 20 years, you'll be looking back and shaking your head at your youthful naiveté.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

You're maybe your naive to current events. Explain to me why vehicles that get 60 mpg are backordered more than the Blur a year ago? I'll tell you that it isn't because all the smart liberals are spending their Bush "tax-cut"...

[Mr_Cheeze]

That's beside the point. By what logic or fact do you suggest that SUV purchases have begun to and will continue to drop over the next 20 years? None. This is strictly idealistic thinking. Unfortunately, the world doesn't conform to a utopian dogma.

Oh, and do you believe that just non-liberals drive SUV's? Look around.

I believe it's the Government's fault for allowing capitolism to reign, and giving it's citizens freedom and civil right to make unwise choices. Where the hell did these "Government People" come from anyway

[mtbtom]

So. Iguess what you're saying is, I can use as much fuel as i want to, so long as i don't have an SUV. Hmmm, Deja-vu. I remember this from another(s) point(s) in the past.How could have this have happened again(s).


Ahh, no. All I'm saying is don't complain about gas taxes because in actuality, once all the costs are factored into the price, you are getting a good deal.

"Ahh, no. All I'm saying is don't complain about gas taxes because in actuality, once all the costs are factored into the price, you are getting a good deal."


Now that i will agree on, from a number of points. Gas is a bargain, esp. in this country. I don't mind spending money on gas, it does an incredible service for me, and i really don't mind my current rate of taxation. Like i said before i have more issue with the private sector, unscrupulous corporate greed and incompetence, held unaccountable. I don't complain about taxes

[sizlinseagulsoup]

That's beside the point. By what logic or fact do you suggest that SUV purchases have begun to and will continue to drop over the next 20 years? None. This is strictly idealistic thinking. Unfortunately, the world doesn't conform to a utopian dogma.

Oh, and do you believe that just non-liberals drive SUV's? Look around.


Come out to Northampton or Amherst MA, you'll find FAR less SUV's out there than you will in Boston. I wonder why?

I don't think the SUV has caught on yet in areas where its application is most plausable

Now California, Texas and Florida, They need 'em

[Mr_Cheeze]

That's beside the point. By what logic or fact do you suggest that SUV purchases have begun to and will continue to drop over the next 20 years? None. This is strictly idealistic thinking. Unfortunately, the world doesn't conform to a utopian dogma.

Oh, and do you believe that just non-liberals drive SUV's? Look around.


Come out to Northampton or Amherst MA, you'll find FAR less SUV's out there than you will in Boston. I wonder why?


Areas populated largely with those in a lower income bracket and/or large number of students. Easy math. Has nothing to do with liberal/conservative. By the same token, you won't see a comparitavely large amount of SUV's in Roxbury, Lowell, Fall River, et. al.

[Tim]

That's beside the point. By what logic or fact do you suggest that SUV purchases have begun to and will continue to drop over the next 20 years? None. This is strictly idealistic thinking. Unfortunately, the world doesn't conform to a utopian dogma.

Oh, and do you believe that just non-liberals drive SUV's? Look around.


Come out to Northampton or Amherst MA, you'll find FAR less SUV's out there than you will in Boston. I wonder why?


Hey Kevin, think about staying in college until you figure out when to use "less" and when to use "fewer." You may even want to stay long enough to learn to use a semicolon instead of a comma when combining two sentences into one.

Even inane rants read better when one uses proper English.

Tim

Wow. Points for grammer and punctuation. I hope sentence structure and overall phraseology don't count for much or i'm screwed. Getti'n sophisticated. I always sensed this forum was a bit prejudiced towards the youngins' and the less literate: :o

Besides i'm rather partial to insane rants. Th'ere tastey

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Wow Tim, I'm sorry that you cared about grammar so much. Maybe you could defend your points without attempting to discredit the opposition's writing skills.

Moreover, this is a forum, not am English paper. Grow up.

Well my friends, i guess i have only one more thing to say (semi-related to this thread) before we break for the holiday situation. I do firmly feel that if SUV's are threat to the world as we know it, then stores like The Christmas Tree Shop and the like are an equal threat. Meaning that, and look around the house people, that all that cash spent on candles and untold misc BS that "we" purchase from said purveyors, could and should probably be spent far more wisely. And don't think for a minute it dosen't take fuel to bring to us all these "wonderfull" life enhancing products and do'dads that mysteriously appear on the shelves after "someone" goes shopping. And this is just the tip of the iceberg, depending on where these products are made, just like fuel, Osama must be reaping the royalties in some form or manner, he's into everything. Why oh why must "we spend so much money on SH$T when there are so many other things in our lives and society that require our attention and financial consideration.

My wife just got back from shopping. All of you, Have a good and safe holiday

[pk]

Just got this from Kerry's Personal Assistant:

pk

[bdee]

That's a nice response. But really PK what does this have to do with the anti - SUV rant anyway? :)

There goes bdee "stirring the pot" again ;D

1/05 Dear diary; insert picture "On my way to work"

[sizlinseagulsoup]

That's a cool picture of John Kerry on a bike :-P

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Amazing, this is the most discussed thread on the NEMBA forum.

[AA]

actually this is the most disscussed thread by 10-dog and Kevin M. Other than you guys there are about 10 responses ;D

There's that fuzzy math again. I like fuzzy math

[Mr_Cheeze]

Yea, I'm sure the Senator is champing at the bit to pull over a NEMBA cycling jersey. More likely his assistant was granted ownership of said jersey by Mr. Kerry and already has it tucked in the rear of one of her dressers in queue for a future regift.

Why was a jersey sent to him anyway? Is this supposedly going to grant some potential favor by way of NEMBA? Dream on.

Actually i don't have an SUV, no really i do, no i don't it's my family who owns it. All this to save what, less than 5% of the total gas usage of automobiles in the US. Less than 3% of what's being imported from the Persian Gulf area. Geeze we waste more than that on weekend BS trips

[Z]

Wow, it's been ages since I looked at this topic, and I can't believe it's 10 pages already! I read it all in one sitting just now. I have to say it's awesome that everyone had been so level headed (and kept a sense of humor) for the most part in the whole debate.

Well, with the exception of Mr_Cheese, but that's nothing new.... ;)

Anyway, it's refreshing to visit a forum where people aren't totally attacking one another, so people can actually debate issues. Is it because we're so MATURE? Or maybe it's because we're too OLD....

[sizlinseagulsoup]

If I'm too old, I'd hate to know what it's like to be 30 ;D

[Mr_Cheeze]

Well, with the exception of Mr_Cheese, but that's nothing new.... ;)



That's nothing new? Oh, you must be talking about all of those nasty debates you and I always get into. Yea, that's it.

Who are you again?

BTW, level-headedness and liberal are mutually exclusive terms.

[BrianK]

::)

[MrsCouch]

Apparently, John Kerry can't stay ON his bike ;D. At least he was out riding the local roads and is well aware of the conditions.....

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/123/region/Kerry_takes_a_spill_from_bike_:.shtml

JFK is so cool

Gotta love him

[narlus]

I think it's only a matter of time before the SUV goes the way of the dinosaur. I believe in 20 years time we'll look back at the SUV phenomenon and realize how ridiculously wasteful they were.


so are you still driving that SUV?

;D

[sizlinseagulsoup]

It would have been more priceless if he nailed the SS agent like he did snowboarding.

Imagine if he mtn biked a lot. There would be articles daily about his crashes. Maybe they would figure out that it wasn't a big deal after a while.

We should be fair and balanced however. He's an interesting press session with Mr. Bush - http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040122-5.html

The more i think of it, the ticket should be Bush/Romney. Now there's a team. Texas and Massachusetts. Sweet

[sizlinseagulsoup]

You mean Texas and Utah. Romney isn't ours.

Yeah, but he's ours now. And long live the Olympics

And B Y U

[narlus]

is it normal behavior to for 10-Dog to edit seemingly every post he does? ???

[CouchingTiger]

So, read in the news that Kerry was on his bike then suddenly off again yesterday in Concord. Seems the secret service couldn't protect him from a patch of sand. D'Oh!

Concord DPW must be Bush supporters ;)

-Couch

is it normal behavior to for 10-Dog to edit seemingly every post he does? ???




::)Seemingly :-[Sorry :-[

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Concord has some of the best roads as far as I'm concerned. Go Concord DPW!

[pk]

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=18906

[johnbryanpeters]

I think it'd be interesting for NEMBA to invite Kerry to ride at Nam - that'd give the bodyguards conniptions.

J

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Neat, another picture! This time his T-Shirt matches his helmet!

[MTBME]

Yeah, I also saw the report that John Kerry wiped out on a patch of sand and his bike had to go to the shop. I guess he kept flip flopping back and forth unable to decide whether to lean his bike or his body into the curve. Funny, I didn't expect him to go down so hard until November!

[mtbtom]

You know what else is funny ? Believe it or not last year George W. Bush wiped out at his Daddy's mansion in Maine riding one of those ridiculous Segways scooter things. Man that is freakin LAME !

[CouchingTiger]

You know what else is funny ? Believe it or not last year George W. Bush wiped out at his Daddy's mansion in Maine riding one of those ridiculous Segways scooter things. Man that is freakin LAME !


Yea, I though those things were idiot proof ... guess not ;)

Give it up for Kerry. Fitting a ~40 mile road ride into his current schedule is pretty dedicated.

A Vietnam ride for a Vietnam vet that was shot multiple times in combat. Can you say flashbacks! Bad idea ;)

-Couch

You know what else is funny ? Believe it or not last year George W. Bush wiped out at his Daddy's mansion in Maine riding one of those ridiculous Segways scooter things. Man that is freakin LAME !


Catch him if you can

[MTBME]

"A Vietnam ride for a Vietnam vet that was shot multiple times in combat"

Actually I've never heard that John Kerry was shot to earn his purple hearts. His commanding officer was recently quoted as saying his first injury, for which he was applying for a purple heart, was nothing more than a "fingernail scratch". The commanding officer thought he was joking whan he applied for the medal.

The other injuries are clouded in a bit of mystery. I think those records haven't been released. I'm not trying to slam the guy, its just that there are a lot of inconsistencies about his war record, injuries and what he has and has not done with his medals.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

I'm sick of this GOP hogwash. You guys try to discredit a man that ACTUALLY went to Vietnam when your politician was AWOL. It's so petty.

[MTBME]

I'm not a member of the GOP, never have been and I don't consider George Bush my man by any stretch. I do think we have a poor choice of candidates to pick from, as usual.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

I dunno, I find myself agreeing with Kerry on 80-90% of the issues, which isn't a bad percentage. I figure it's better to vote for someone who will get what I want done rather than if he has a nice smile. But I guess that's just me.

MTBME - this sounds like a decent website for you - http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.c om/

[MTBME]

You know, I should mention that I actually worked on John Kerry campaign in the 70's when he ran for a seat as a state rep. John Kerry bought a house in the district so he could run for that seat. He lost to a republican, Paul Cronin of Andover. Then he sold the house he bought and moved out of the neighborhood. Politicians... there all the same. >:(

Maybe Bush and Kerry should enter the Vermont 50 and the winner wins..but that might be unfair..but if G W could use a Segway scooter thing and there was no sand..aw stupid idea, we'll just have to let their military records sway the voters. Damn, it is always the same. The lesser of two evils

[sizlinseagulsoup]

10-Dog, the winner does not win, you should know that. The Supreme Court tells us who actually lost but names them the winner! Silly :o

Let us begin the appeal process now, then ;D Sorry, i forgot

[Slider]

"I'm not trying to slam the guy, its just that there are a lot of inconsistencies about his war record, injuries and what he has and has not done with his medals."


Face it. The only purpose of your post was to slam the guy. There's some discussion currently about whether Kerry threw his own medals or someone elses over a fence in protest in 1971, and there was a little talk about how serious his first injury was, but I don't know if anyone is questioning whether her absolutely earned earned the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, three Purple Hearts, the Vietnamese Campaign Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal and the National Defense Service Medal. Which one are you questioning?

If George Bush lost to Kerry in the Vermont 50, he'd have the Supreme Court change the outcome.

It has to be a LOT harder to fall of a Segway than a bike, and certainly much harder than ducking flight duty.

Slider

[Rych]

As a republican, I couldn't care less if Kerry hucked his medals, got a purple heart for getting a splinter, or banged Jane Fonda. It really doesn't matter. I only care about his policies since he began his political life. I think his liberal policies will hurt my quality of life, by hitting me hard in the wallet. I'm not interested in my tax dollars going to pay for liberal handouts.

[Slider]

As a republican, how do you feel about many, many billions spent on an unjustifiable war?

You could pay for any social program proposed in the last decade with what we'll spend in Iraq over the next few years.

Of couse, as a republican, you may be heavily invested in Hallibutron and Bechtel, so you're right, you might do better with Bush.

Slider

[MTBME]

unjustifiable war?

You may call it unjustifiable but that doesn't make it so. You seem to forget 9/11 and before you tell me that Iraq didn't fly those planes into Manhatten, Iraq was clearly a sponsor of terrorism, and this war is against terrorism. In time more facts will emerge and we will be able to look back and judge the results. But if the seed of Democracy can be planted in a place like Iraq, it could save billions of dollars and millions of lives down the road.

[mtbtom]

unjustifiable war?

You may call it unjustifiable but that doesn't make it so. You seem to forget 9/11 and before you tell me that Iraq didn't fly those planes into Manhatten, Iraq was clearly a sponsor of terrorism, and this war is against terrorism.

First it was the seemingly nonexistent WMDs that justified the war IRAQ, now it's the alleged terrorist connections....

Explain to me how Iraq was sponsor of terrorism. Seriously I want to know. If anything Iraq was a secular Muslim country that kept radical Islam in check with an iron fist. Saddam was no Doris Day, but the current reality in Iraq - a vacuum of power which has essentially created a snake pit of terrorist activity - is just as bad if not worse than Iraq under Saddam.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

I'm not interested in my tax dollars going to pay for liberal handouts.



$87,000,000,000

John Kerry voted AGAINST wasting all the money, that horrible liberal!

What about the conservative handouts? A few months back, Bush had a corporation PAID to deforest national lands. Ironically, most companies usually PAY the government for the right to log the states land, but Bush found it appropriate to waste millions of our dollars to pay them instead.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

But if the seed of Democracy can be planted in a place like Iraq, it could save billions of dollars and millions of lives down the road.


Do you honestly think the "seed" of democracy will be planned there? Even so, what gives us the right to tell other nations how to live? I believe we tried that during the Red Scare...

[MTBME]

There's no easy answers and it's not very pretty, I agree. My only point is that 9/11 changed everything! We have a choice. We can sit back and react, or we can become more proactive. Do I think this is all going to work out in the end? Probably not. Why? Not enough consensus here and abroad. Ho Chi Min said he knew the Vietnam war was won when they were able to divide American opinion. That's Democracy and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Rych]

As a republican, how do you feel about many, many billions spent on an unjustifiable war?

You could pay for any social program proposed in the last decade with what we'll spend in Iraq over the next few years.

Of couse, as a republican, you may be heavily invested in Hallibutron and Bechtel, so you're right, you might do better with Bush.

Slider


Slider....If Bush invaded Afghanistan in March 2001, would you have called that an unjustifiable war?

[ArmOnFire]

What did the Dem's do when this happened?

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4xq8f/usscole4.jpg

This could have been my ship, I was there shortly before this happened.

As a vet who spent some time in that part of the world, I can say we are not liked, at all, by anyone in that region of the world. Including those that we call our "allies".

Need to focus on alternative fuels, and ride bikes, not bicker over
politics, thats why I come to this site, to avoid all the unfortunate events happening over there.

All I can say is support the troops, they are everyday Joes like you and me.

[Slider]

"Slider....If Bush invaded Afghanistan in March 2001, would you have called that an unjustifiable war? "

We didn't, and paid the consequences. Unlike Iraq, we knew bin Laden was in Afghanistan, knew he was sponsoring terror, and knew specific on things that he had done. Are you sure you really want to trot out a previous Bush error as justification for the more recent one?

Slider

[mtbtom]

Blaming the bombing of the USS Cole on the democrats is analogous to blaming 9/11 on the Republicans. It's pointless at best.

While I support the troops, I definitely do not support this war. It's an undisputable fact that the American people have been mislead about the reasons for going to war in Iraq - either by outright lies or faulty intelligence gathered by the Bush administration.

Unbelievably Bush said himself that he wants this election to be a referendum on his first term in office. Based on the mess he's gotten us into he should be fired.

[ArmOnFire]

Whoa MTBTOM!
I am not BLAMING either political party for either event.
Agreed, pointless.

So why am I writing this and not riding?
Later...

This is interesting though....

Remember United States Marine Corps Lt.Col Oliver North.

If not, he was under the spot light for the Iran contra affair.

It was 1987 and Lt Col. North is testifying at the Iran-Contra hearings during the Reagan administration.

There was Ollie in front of God and country getting the third degree, but what he said was stunning!

He was being drilled by some Senator: "Did you not recently spend close to $60,000 for a home security system?"

Ollie replied, "Yes, I did, Sir."

The senator continued , trying to get a laugh out of the audience, " Isn't that just a little excessive?"

"No, sir," continued Ollie.

"No? And why not? the senator asked.

"Because the lives of my family and I were threatened , sir."

"Threatened? By whom?" the senator questioned.

"By a terrorist, sir," Ollie answered.

"Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?"

"His name is Osama Bin Laden, sir" Ollie replied.

At this point the senator tried to repeat the name, but couldn't pronounce it, which most people back then probably could not. A couple of people laughed at the attempt.

Then the senator continued. "Why are you afraid of this man?" the senator asked.

"Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive that I know of." Ollie answered.

"And what do you recommend we do about him? asked the senator.

"Well, Sir, if it was up to me, I would recommend that an assassin team be formed to eliminate him and his men from the face of the earth."

The senator disagreed with this approach and moved on to another subject.

Just for your information the senator was none other than Al Gore.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

I am not sure if that means you are in favor of Gore or not. By that dialogue, Ollie sounds insane. Additionally, he just said he was "evil." That is not sufficent reason to kill someone. I think Bush is evil. But that fact alone is not reason enough to kill the man.

[ArmOnFire]

I am not sure if you are in favor of Osama or not, but I would side with Ollie over him.

And you and I having different views and opinions, and being able to discuss them out in the open is why I served for 6 years to help defend it.

That is what makes this country great!

[mtbtom]

Sorry man, I don't want to be an ass but as Flava Flav once said - don't believe the hype.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.htm

This ones been around a long time...

[nhiker]

Sorry man, I don't want to be an ass but as Flava Flav once said - don't believe the hype.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.htm

This ones been around a long time...


Tom is correct the terrorist which north actually cited was Abu Nidal....I thought I remember not only the testimony but the snoopes piece.

Damit. The Iran Contra thing and now..Swifer conspiracy..My life is a lie, all i believe in has come from info-e-mails and forum posts. What can i do when i know that everything i know could be either right or wrong but i don't know which. I do like the taste of antifreeze though, maybe that explains some things about me. Like why i'm blind and why i like sleeping curled up in the snow with the other dogs.

That's all i got today ;D

[sizlinseagulsoup]

I am not sure if you are in favor of Osama or not, but I would side with Ollie over him.

And you and I having different views and opinions, and being able to discuss them out in the open is why I served for 6 years to help defend it.

That is what makes this country great!


Just to let you, I find it deeply offended that you would EVER ASSUME that thinking Ollie sounds INSANE relates to me supporting Osama. Osama was hardly the threat then, and to just go out and assassinate the man then would have been ludicrious. Hindsight is 20/20 my friend, so maybe you should begin applying logic to your posts before you start saying all anti-war liberals are terrorists.

[ArmOnFire]

"so maybe you should begin applying logic to your posts"
-Kevin M
logic in a forum?
what fun would that be?

[Rych]

I don't think you can blame Bush for 9/11, or Clinton for the Cole. What you may be able to find fault with is the lack of response from Clinton. I think Clinton's lack of a response comes from Clinton getting a Lewinsky in the oval office. I think he was afraid that any large scale response would appear to be an attempt to “wag the dog".

[MTBME]

"getting a Lewinsky in the oval office"

Boy, I haven't heard that expression in a long time. I had to laugh out loud at that one. Now everybody in the cubicles around me knows I'm screwing off! :-[

[nhiker]

;D
Three Texans



Three Texas surgeons were having lunch together and discussing surgeries they had performed. One of them said, "I'm the best surgeon in Texas. A concert pianist lost 7 fingers in an accident, I reattached them and 8 months later he performed a private concert for the Queen of England."

One of the others said. "That's nothing. A young man lost both arms and legs in a terrible accident, I reattached them and 2 years later he won 2 gold medals in field events in the Olympics."

The third surgeon said, "You guys are amateurs. Several years ago a guy who was high on cocaine and alcohol rode a horse head-on into a train traveling 80 miles an hour. All I had left to work with was the horse's ass and the guy's mouth. Now he's running as the Democrat candidate for President of the United States."

[Slider]

Yeah, about what I'd expect from a Bush supporter. I was wondering when an inability to find any basis for supporting him would force backers like you to use moronic humor in place of genuine discussion.

Too bad we don't have such talented surgeons to offer the Iraqis that we tortured and murdered.

Slider

What's humorus is trying to find basis in supporting either one of them 'cause basically between the mouth and the horse's ass you got a Bush/Kerry ticket. Reverse that if you wish. Whatever suits you. I'd just like to find the surgeon that sewed Lewinski's ears back on after the other guy removed them mistakedly. (he thought they were the "love handles" she wanted removed) Now that's torture. But I'll still side with the WB

[sizlinseagulsoup]

Bush is the coke addict.

Wasn't his father the one who started this whole failing war on drugs? Ironic. Father has a failing war on drugs and his son's a coke-head, son has a failing war on terror.

[nhiker]

Yeah, about what I'd expect from a Bush supporter. I was wondering when an inability to find any basis for supporting him would force backers like you to use moronic humor in place of genuine discussion.

Too bad we don't have such talented surgeons to offer the Iraqis that we tortured and murdered.

Slider


Taking this kind of personal aren't you there slider....And actually go back and read this string, I don't support either Candidate. They are both equally inept. So maybe you should educate yourself before you start name calling....

Oh and spare me your platitudes and sympathy for the poor iraqis we tourtured and Murdered. The Solders who did this were wrong and should be punished but think twice before you talk about things you don't understand. These are the same guys who who have been shooting at our guys from inside mosques while surrounded by women and children and also who's friends turted burned and hung those civilians late last Month. Maybe if your friends were killed by these heros you wouldn't feel so much guilt and sympathy.

And actually Kevin is right When I recieved this in my e-mail I actually thought in many ways it was better suited for "W"
But I thought it was cute enough to share and I am always glad to aggravate the "extreme liberals or conservatives" out there :D ;D

All in fun just a debate folks 8) We are a bunch of little Fonzies.... we cool. 8)

[sizlinseagulsoup]

In reading that, I really thought it was going to be a Bush dig (except I was a little thrown off when they mentioned the horse over dui in Maine)

Maybe the Democrat thing was half the joke? Bush is an economic Democrat after all (not the tax cuts, but the deficit is a Democratic idea)

[Mr_Cheeze]

Bush is the coke addict.

Wasn't his father the one who started this whole failing war on drugs? Ironic. Father has a failing war on drugs and his son's a coke-head, son has a failing war on terror.



Hmm... just a tad slanderous, that statement. Just a wee bit. Not that the truth actually matters.

[sizlinseagulsoup]

I appologize; Bush once (likely more than once) did coke.

I guess because he was only arrested for it once in 1972 makes it alright though.

[Mr_Cheeze]

Does it make it alright? I don't know. Does this fact make him a bad person? I know plenty of good people who once did coke and worse. Not sure what your point is. You continue to assume that because someone disagrees with you that they are necessarily a Bush or Republican supporter. That being said, what someone did 30 years ago; i.e. drugs, sex, war protests, makes little difference to me. In fact, I feel much better when they at least admit their mistakes instead of some laughable copout like, "Ah did smoke marijuana... but ah did not inhale."

Go ahead, bring up the GWB Army Reserve AWOL stuff now. I know you want to.

Been there..Done that

[Slider]

"These are the same guys who who have been shooting at our guys from inside mosques while surrounded by women and children and also who's friends turted burned and hung those civilians late last Month. Maybe if your friends were killed by these heros you wouldn't feel so much guilt and sympathy. "

I get it. All of Iraq is fair game. Might as well force our style of government down their throats, too, while we're there. It is a shame they don't appreciate our liberation.

Slider

Long live the Animal Farm

The sixth commandment:

"No Animal Shall Kill Another Animal Without Just Cause"

And actually it ended with ONE COMMANDMENT

"All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

[nhiker]

"These are the same guys who who have been shooting at our guys from inside mosques while surrounded by women and children and also who's friends turted burned and hung those civilians late last Month. Maybe if your friends were killed by these heros you wouldn't feel so much guilt and sympathy. "

I get it. All of Iraq is fair game. Might as well force our style of government down their throats, too, while we're there. It is a shame they don't appreciate our liberation.

Slider


Yeah, thats what I was saying ::) Logic and rational don't seem to be of any value in this discussion.
Oh and did anyone see the beheading yesterday! What fun :P

"Oh and did anyone see the beheading yesterday! What fun :P"

'A head for you, some "tail" for me'

We're Al-Quiedanese if you please
We're Al-Quiedanese if you don't please
Do you see some women standing over there?
We could hide behind them and be safe from fear

[MTBME]

I think some of you guys went over the handlebars a few too many times. Regarding the "torture" of the poor prisioners, It didn't look much worse than a college hazing to me. Just ask yourself, where would you rather be incarcerated right now. Under the American control, or would you rather be posing for an al-Qaida photo shoot. Hmm, let me see, posing naked with women, getting my head hacked off. Posing naked with women, getting my head hacked off. Gee, I think I know which one I'll take.

[MTBME]

"It is a shame they don't appreciate our liberation.

Slider"

Actually slider, the vast majority of them do appreciate our liberation. A recent poll, by 3 independant groups, showed support at over 70%. It's just that you don't get to see that on the nightly news.

Also yesterday over 1,000 Iraqis marched in a demonstation. Nothing unusual about that you say. Only these Iraqis were marching against terrorist Al-Sadr. They wanted him and his followers to pack up and leave Najaf. I'll bet you didn't see that on the evening news last night eithe