Lynn Woods ??

[splat]

I saw this on Busted Spoke

http://bustedspoke.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3795

PK Is this true ? if so shouldn't this be under action alerts on the Main page ?

[pk]

The recent crisis near the boundary to the Lynn Woods Reservation has been a wake-up call to the mountain bike community and especially those who enjoy the privilege of riding Lynn. Many people (including NEMBA) have been involved in troubleshooting the crisis, and given its delicate nature and the hugely negative consequences if the story were picked up by the general public and media, we are pleased with how it was handled. The leadership of Bustedspoke should be commended for playing such a positive role.

Looking forward, the bottom line is this. The mountain bike community has a choice. Either we vigorously monitor and remove illegally constructed stunts or we serious jeopardize our ability to use the trails.

I get the sense reading the forums that those responsible for their construction really didn't understand the consequences of what they were doing and are remorseful. However, there are probably others who simply don't care. As such, everyone who enjoys riding should be vigilant and protective of the trails we ride.

All who ride Lynn Woods Reservation should be grateful to the Lynn Woods Ranger. He is forward-thinking and is making a large effort to work with cyclists to make this a wonderful recreational and environmental resource. But he needs help. Greater Boston NEMBA is planning a number of trail care days at Lynn Woods, and I urge everyone who cares about this park to visibly show their support for the park by coming out to help. The dates will soon be published at www.gbnemba.org.

If you ride Lynn and notice anything that could jeopardize mountain biking in this park, please contact NEMBA's park liason, Tom Grimble, at tgrimble@alum.syracuse.edu. He will work with the ranger to determine the best course of action.

pk

PK,

Is there a difference between kids building stunts and adults riding closed trails? Don't both equally jeopardize mountain biking?

How does NEMBA reconcile their condemnation of stunt building in Lynn Woods with their acceptance of trail trespassing in the Fells.


I have felt conflicted about this issue and hope you can offer some resolution.

jim

[CouchingTiger]

PK,

Is there a difference between kids building stunts and adults riding closed trails? Don't both equally jeopardize mountain biking?

How does NEMBA reconcile their condemnation of stunt building in Lynn Woods with their acceptance of trail trespassing in the Fells.


I have felt conflicted about this issue and hope you can offer some resolution.

jim


I'm not sure that I understand when/where NEMBA has ever accepted/condoned illegal trail riding in the Fells. No, NEMBA isn't out enforcing trail closures in the Fells but NEMBA isn't in the enforcement business.

From what I understand about the Lynn issue, it is entirely different and was highly visible. Starting a couple years back at Lynn, there has been a group of "friends of the trails" (not NEMBA related at all) that have vowed to actively discourage illegal stunt building at Lynn Woods. This was because of the positive relationship the MTB community has had with the Lynn Woods management. Folks simply were not will to put that relationship in jeopardy.

I must admit that I don't know the exact details of the latest Lynn crisis but I think that mountainbikers need to be responsible not only for their actions, but to a degree, the actions of their group as the few may well reflect poorly on the whole.

-Couch

[Zeena]

That's funny. In all the NEMBA literature, online and off, I've never seen any statement that it's OK to ride illegal trails in the Fells. Or by "acceptance" do you mean "failure to prevent it"? If it's the latter, then that's beyond NEMBA's scope.

The Lynn Woods/Fells situations are not analogous. "Kids building stunts" vs "adults trespassing" is more like adults making unauthorized alterations to the existing terrain" vs "adults riding trails that already exist with arbitrary access restrictions".

They're both, technically, forbidden, but they're not the same.

DB

[AA]

Is there a difference between kids building stunts and adults riding closed trails? Don't both equally jeopardize mountain biking?



I think if you dig into the Lynn issue a little further you will find that the offenders are not exactly "kids" from what I can tell a good portion can legally be called "adults".


Rember the disclaimer at the bottom of the page.......

Disclamer: This is a public bulletin board to share and promote mountain biking in New England. Please ride and write responsibly. The views expressed here are the sole responsibility of the authors, and do not represent the views of NEMBA. However, NEMBA reserves the right to make use of Forum content for publication in SingleTracks.

Let me clarify acceptance of trail trespassing in the Fells.

A group can publish any set of goals or rules they desire. In the end they will be judged by their actions, not their words. It is always with a wink and a nod that nemba condemns trail poaching at the Fells.

Members of a group will look to their leadership to set an example for the acceptable behavior within the policy of the group. When nemba chapter board of directors members participate with ride groups whose purpose is to ride "trails that already exist with arbitrary access restrictions" they send a message to the membership that it is acceptable to do so.
I will go a step further. I'll say that nemba actually promotes riding closed trails at the Fells.

[T Grimble]

This is an interesting discussion but I don't agree that NEMBA condones illegal riding because members may engage in illegal riding. NEMBA's policy is that we do not support riding on illegal trails. We ask our membership, the community at large and our board members to abide by this policy. The issue at the Fells is very complex and has evolved to that state over the past 15 years. The details of that complexity is a topic for another time but the fact that I want to dispute is that NEMBA policy is being set through the actions of some of our volunteers who choose to disregard a policy that they believe is unjust. Would you have us dismiss all volunteers who don't follow our policy? Don't mistake this as a bending of our policy by any means. I agree that we lead by our actions but I don't expect all of our volunteers to be saints. I hope that same people who are more relaxed with their actions are not the same people who stand on top the soap box. From my experience, they are not.

-Tom

[CouchingTiger]

Let me clarify acceptance of trail trespassing in the Fells.

A group can publish any set of goals or rules they desire. In the end they will be judged by their actions, not their words. It is always with a wink and a nod that nemba condemns trail poaching at the Fells.

Members of a group will look to their leadership to set an example for the acceptable behavior within the policy of the group. When nemba chapter board of directors members participate with ride groups whose purpose is to ride "trails that already exist with arbitrary access restrictions" they send a message to the membership that it is acceptable to do so.
I will go a step further. I'll say that nemba actually promotes riding closed trails at the Fells.


I'll actually disagree with that entirely. I can state for fact that of the NEMBA leadership that I know and personally ride with (including PK and Tom), they will absolutely NOT ride illegal trails at the Fells. In fact, we don't ride the Fells AT ALL for that very reason. I personally gave up riding the Fells because it was too controvertial.

I think that there is a difference between acknowledging that illegal riding happens and condoning it. We as a society drug problems through drug treatment programs and such yet we don't condone drug us as it is still illegal to use/posess drugs.

Maybe my group is different though, in that we DO_NOT_EVER ride illegal trails in the Fells. That is not to say that I have never, but I honestly haven't ridden the Fells more than 2x in the last 8 years.

-Couch

[Zeena]

You're being coy, but the group of which you speak (whose purpose is to ride, etc.) is obviously Rage (though you're misinformed about the purpose of the group). Ironically, it was this kind of self-righteous soapboxing that fueled the formation of rage in the first place. Used to be, any self-respecting rager wouldn't be caught dead in nemba and vice versa. Now, thanks largely to the efforts of nemba leadership, both groups have a symbiotic and productive relationship. Let's keep it that way.


Let me clarify acceptance of trail trespassing in the Fells.

A group can publish any set of goals or rules they desire. In the end they will be judged by their actions, not their words. It is always with a wink and a nod that nemba condemns trail poaching at the Fells.

Members of a group will look to their leadership to set an example for the acceptable behavior within the policy of the group. When nemba chapter board of directors members participate with ride groups whose purpose is to ride "trails that already exist with arbitrary access restrictions" they send a message to the membership that it is acceptable to do so.
I will go a step further. I'll say that nemba actually promotes riding closed trails at the Fells.

self-righteous
coy
on a soap box

All things that i have been accused of before

I will add an old accusation "some people seem to have a need to seek out controversy and advertise it."

I plead guilty to all charges. I appreciate your indulgence of my "weird" personality and the professional way in which you all responded. I enjoyed the thought process, learned a little, and hope you all did as well.


thanks

bill

[nhiker]

I plead guilty to all charges. I appreciate your indulgence of my "weird" personality and the professional way in which you all responded. I enjoyed the thought process, learned a little, and hope you all did as well.


thanks

bill


You are not Weird...youre Justbill ;) And your point of view though often different from my own always makes me think outside of the proverbial box.

All kidding aside I would hope Nemba leadership isn't giving this sort of activity anywhere the old wink wink nudge nudge.

Bill, i hope this information can help clear things up for you. As i see it approx. 35% out of 70% of the mountain biking community who ride on illegal trails don't realize that 30% of the trails they are riding on are technically illegal. But this is a result of the fact that 40% of the trails that 60% of us ride are on private,corporate or municipal property that 70% of us did not know wasn't part of the legal riding area to begin with. I know myself, like 90% of other forum readers, nemba members, and the general mtb community, never ride on illegal trails at least 95% of the time unles s it is pointed out to me by one of the 75% of riders who do know they are on illegal trails with me. I realize this is all very confusing and that at least 99% of most of the 75% who do know they are on illegal trails won't tell anyone unless you ride with them 80% of the time. I believe NEMBA has indicated where they stand with this situation, so this is all moot ???

[AA]

10-Dog

I understood 12% of your post for 41% of the time, that said take 100%-12% divided by the recipricol of 41% squared and I still dont know what your talking about ;D

oh yea, Bill you do have a "weird" personality. Perhaps the chafing from the jeans that has made you that way.

[OldSloDoggie]

10-Dog. Not quite sure were you got your number's from but then I digress. "NEMBA has indicated where they stand with this situation, so this is all moot" glosses over Justbill's willingness to stand up for the unpopular position ie NEMBA looks upon trail poaching with a wink and a nod at the Fells.
Food for though the next time YOU have decide which trail to take.
Is it Justbill's "need to seek out controversy and advertise it" or is it a man of in·teg·ri·ty (def*Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code) opening the thought process ??
Think, sooner or later, we all must decide which trail to take.

Boy, can you guys take joke! Chill, and enjoy the BS. I happen to agree with the Bill on this one regardless. It has been my experience that things are a little wishy in Washy at times, just the way things are. But one man (PK) cannot control everything and everyone all the time and that's OK. It's no different in any other group of this nature or in any social or political circumstance. Not to gloss over Bill's concern or the "unpopular position" he has chosen to take or his "integrity". BUT JUST MAKING LIGHT OF THE SITUATION. Sorry for trying to make you LAUGH.

AA -

Looks like we'll need another "break off" to settle this one..... I'll get Turbo.

What say you, Bill? Do "we" see humor or attack of integrity ???

[CouchingTiger]

I think AA is just upset because he learned today of the lofty time trial "time to beat" that I threw down yesterday afternoon ;)

-Couch

[Baconman]

The government can be all too stingy allocating access to our resources. It's not isolated to just trails. For example I've been prevented from rock climbing "for my own good" by a federal ranger. I've been prevented from surfing in the exact conditions that are conducive to great surfing by local police. I've been admonished for sailing through the Cape Cod canal when I "should have been motoring" by the Coast Guard. None of these actions were political statements, I just wanted to climb, surf and sail.

Like most Nemba members I've also been told where I can't ride my bike. Some restrictions make sense. I don't want to ride where the environment will be damaged. I do want to be able to ride my bike anywhere else that it is safe to do so and in most cases I want to be the judge of what is safe.

If you don't like the rules what do you do? You can acquiesce and obey. You can obey and fight them in an upstanding manner. You can disobey them and fight them. Or you can just disobey them. In general if you're going to fight rules in a public manner, you'd better not get caught disobeying them. If you do get caught your attention will be redirected from pointing out the wrong in the rules to defending your actions. This will undermine your effectiveness. Giving in with no fight is a perfectly acceptable choice but shows little initiative. If you don't fight I don't want to hear you whine.

NEMBA, at least on paper, chooses to obey and fight selectively. I support NEMBAs position. What's left is the disobeyers. These people exist. Who cleans up after them? NEMBA? When teenagers walk a half mile into the woods at night, party and leave a mess does the AMC take hits because hikers are abusing public property? Certainly when someone builds an unsanctioned bike stunt it reflects poorly on all bikers that use the area. I personally am against leaving evidence of a ride, be it litter, stunts or trail damage, with the exception of tire tracks. I do understand that there are others that live for stunts and the natural ones don't do the job for them. Do we enjoin stunt riders or distance ourselves from them? Likewise there are riders that will occasionally ride to make a political statement (at the Fells maybe) in a Critical Mass type statement. Will NEMBA turn a blind eye to them?

In no way, shape or manner am I an advocate of poaching trails. I do believe in a fundamental right to access public land in a social conscious manner. Like justbill I know that there are very few hardcore mountain bikers in NE that have never poached a trail. Does that make us all poachers or is there a statute of limitations?

Na, were all poachers, and if we outlaw guns we're all outlaws

[AA]

OK I need to address these posts one at a time

NOO- break dance "battle" is now my standard way of resolving conflict (work and social situations) I don’t go anywhere without a boom box and a big piece of cardboard

Couch- I'll be a contender at the new time trial series in no time.... Ok maybe in a month

Baconman- Wow you can type!

OldSlo..- I am just a regular NEMBA member (not a "higher up") but I cant believe that the NEMBA board members treat the Fells poaching with "a wink and a smile" that’s painting folks with a pretty broad brush. I personally won’t ride at the Fells because I don’t want to even be tempted to ride the illegal stuff.

10-Dog, I was humored by your "new math" so I had do some of my "fuzzy math"

Bottom line- Dont ride illegal trails, it dosent do anyone any good.

I like "fuzzy math" too, and don't ride in the mud either, bad for everyone, :( including the trails

What say you, Bill? Do "we" see humor or attack of integrity ???


I think its probably 50%- 50% ;)

::)

There really is no attack towards anyone going on. Its a discussion on issues. We may attack anothers position on the issue, but not the person.
I lead a skills clinic that will be in the Fells on 2- Thursday evenings in May. These are mostly new nemba membas and I anticipate having to explain this situation as i did last year. I was blind-sided and unable to provide a satifactory responce and don't want to repeat that. By posting the question in a manner simillar to how it is posed to me, I hoped to gain insight enough to develop an explination that would present all the groups and riders in the best possible light.
Again, thank you for your un-enlisted participation in my little experiment.


bill

And i thank you for the benefit of the doubt and letting me participate in your experiment, and all of you, for participating in mine. I trust the issue can be conveyed to all newbees with the utmost of plurality. Oh, i'm just not being of much help here am i

[OldSloDoggie]

Upon rereading, I do see the humour now.
I'm a llama,,,,no I'n a lab rat......no llama....I'm sooooo confused. My attempt at humour

Upon rereading, I do see the humour now.
I'm a llama,,,,no I'n a lab rat......no llama....I'm sooooo confused. My attempt at humour
Now that's funny ;D ;D ;D I knew if you looked close enough you would find the seed

[radair]

....snip....
I will go a step further. I'll say that nemba actually promotes riding closed trails at the Fells.


Bill, I would urge you to think carefully before making this sort of statement. While this may seem like a small private community, in fact anyone in the world can view these posts. When the FotF people see this, they will likely use it to their full advantage to discredit our organization.

The responses from Tom & Couch indicate to me that NEMBA does not condone, accept, or otherwise approve of riding unauthorized trails in the Fells. If you know of chapter BOD members setting the wrong example, I would suggest taking up the matter in private with chapter officers or at a chapter meeting. From what I know of Philip, there's no way he would ever be seen riding illegal trails.

For the record, I know little or nothing about the Fells and have never ridden there. I'm not trying to say anyone should cover up what goes on, but the words of one person on an internet forum can easily be misconstrued or taken out of context.

Someday I'd like to see AA break dance.

OOOpps, so much for experimentation and reverse psychology, but isn't that where it all began?

Although I really don't see J. B's comment(s) a serious factor in setting the MTB community, either locally or on a national level, back with any significance, I do voice concern over the widespread image depicting of Lynn Woods and Vietnam as Freeriding capitols of the Northeast. I would think that this would be far more detrimental the the cleancut image of the average mountain biker than JB's statements whether real or imagined. I view this as a precairious road (trail) to travel. As we follow that trail to quench the thirst of the fringe minority lets not forget about the thousands of riders who just want to ride a quite path in the woods

From Ranger Dan, compliments of Mechanic Emeritus Sparticus:



http://bustedspoke.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3795&start=30

I gotta admit, that makes me feel much better

[knucklebuste]

10-Dog

I understood 12% of your post for 41% of the time, that said take 100%-12% divided by the recipricol of 41% squared and I still dont know what your talking about ;D

oh yea, Bill you do have a "weird" personality. Perhaps the chafing from the jeans that has made you that way.


BBBBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH HHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Knuckle

[knucklebuste]

I like "fuzzy math" too, and don't ride in the mud either, bad for everyone, :( including the trails


Hey, I'm the ultimate enviromentalist, I don't ride bikes at all. I just build expensive bikes, get bored of looking at them, sell the parts for 1/2 off, then build another one. It's a bad disease.

Knuckle

Hey, I wear jeans too and I slap my thighs with cold cuts and damn I need to get this umbrella out of my A##