Lets Talk Cables

[T Grimble]

Last year was tough on cables for some reason. Ok! Pedros did in one set but I struggled with poor shifting a few times durring the season and it always was the result of cable (or more correctly housing) issues. What are other people using for cables and housings. I have done the Shimano thing and now have Avid jacketed cables (not happy with them at all). Is Gore worth the money? What about Nokon? They look great and would solve one problem which is tight routing but I don't know anybody who has used them. Any thoughts?

-Tom

[Hoo-Koo-Eee-Koo]

I am using IRD Metawire:

http://www.interlocracing.com/

and I really do love these cables. They are extremely flexible. Because of their flexibility, some people just use them from the rear derailleur to the cable stop.

When I installed them, however, I did not use the inner wire cable supplied with them because I had some other new cables laying around that were Teflon coated. Also, I ran the liner continuous, uninterupted from the levers (through the cable stops) to the brakes and/or derailleurs.

I had never used lubricant for my cables and liners before, so I first installed these dry. After checking out the installation, I removed the inner wires and lubed them with either Tri-Flow or Boeshield (can't remember which). Much better, smoother, less friction.

These seem to be the best cable set-up of that I have ever had. The cables are totally compressionless and they claim that the alumimun beads are lighter than traditional composite (spring steel and plastic) cable jackets. My only concern (principally for MTB) is the multitude of crevices (joints) in the cable "jacket" and their long term interaction with mud, dirt, and water. Too early for me to tell.

[radair]

I think the Gore-tex are going to be worth the money. I say going to be because I've had mine only a year, but I would typically go through a few sets of rear der cables/housing when using plain jane. I got a set of Gore derailleur cables and replaced only the rear on two bikes.

I agree that Avid Flack Jackets are not the answer. Although they seemed to keep things cleaner, I still had to replace cables almost as frequently.

I do find Roll-a-ma-jigs to extend the life of that last piece of housing. They also clean up the run, eliminating the big loop of cable.

[C.P.]

I can't offer any experience from all of the cable systems out there. I run standard cables for the brakes, good quality cables (jagwire) for shifters, and standard "stock" cable housing for both througout & I don't recall having to replace my cables for almost two years.

Along with standard cables, I use good quality ferrules (csferrules) and run the cable housing full length (no split housing) from shifter/lever to derailleur/brakes. My bike has accomodations to enable full length housing - it has been the best solution - prior to this bike - cables never lasted this long. If you can run full housing on your bike - it may be the ticket.

[T Grimble]

22 posts on fenders and only three people with wisdom on Cables ??? Come on these little buggers are the bane of our existence. They get gummed up with dirt and create all kinds of shifting demons. If they are not gummed up they get bent or damaged or blow out entirely. Ferrules snap off it the derailleur and things just generally go to heck! Somebody must know the secret. I met a guy who ran a bike shop in Utah who spent a half hour installing one set of cable housings. He insisted that the ends had to be perfectly square before he installed the ferrule and he used a bench grinder to accomplish this task. I would contact him for more wisdom but it turns out that he got chased out of town late one night for some sort of offense involving underage girls but I digress.

This is definitely the least interesting part on the bike and yet the bike industry has found a way to make it confusing. 4mm, 5mm, 5.5mm cable widths. Teflon coated, lined, compression free? It seems most people just use the standard stuff and yet there is sufficient reason to believe that standard cables and housing are not up to the job.

I would bet that if Chris King made cables I would install them on the bike and forget about them forever (but they would cost $500).

If Race Face made cables I could get them in 14 different anodized colors and they would be expensive but everybody would still think they were a deal because of the exchange rate.

If SRAM made cables we would commiserate about being oppressed by Shimano.

Yeah there is nothing sexy about cables.

[turch]

Ok, here's what I do. Buy a Gore-On set. Use them only for the rear (Shimano drivetrain) saving the second for replacement down the road. Use straight SIS up front where the glassy feel of Gore-On's is not as critical). Use metal ferrules (the cool ones with O-rings in them are even better) as plastic doesn't hold up. Never use end caps they just squash cable ends and make it near impossible to service the cable later. Use a cutoff tool to squarely cut cable and housing (hint: use the end of the cable inside the housing to avoid mushing the housing). Flare the housing liner while still warm from the cut. Dress the cable end by carefully using flux and solder, cleaning up the excess so that you can actually pull the cable out of the housing and reinstall it if needed. 1/2 hour or so max start to finish (once you've got the process down). Now you have a complete system that you can disassemble and clean (if that's your thing). Mostly I don't need to touch the darned things if you take care of the bike and avoid over washing (most of my cable problems have not been from mud contamination but rather oxidation/corrosion - read:water). A light lube and roll the cable housing one quarter periodically and she should run smooth. Duration? Depends on how many hours/miles you put on but it could be a year or so.

Cables....Easy

Teflon coated cable 1.2mm diameter....Shimano shift housing....Aluminum ferrules....
Pedro's Road Rage Lube every so often......RIDE!

[CouchingTiger]

I've been using the Avid cables with pretty good results. Just the plain ones. I also use either light solicon lube via a moto cable luber or on the tight wends I'll use a little 100% Dupont teflon lube in the housing. I've found no great benefit to the teflon coated "Slick" cables. The coating tends to wear off after a short period and gum up the casing. The spray silicon lube once every couple weeks (or after any wet ride) helps clean that out though.

-Couch

[AA]

I had a set of Gore cables on a bike for 3 full seasons, never had to touch them. When I replaced that bike I bought Avid flak jackets and they were no better than regular cables IMO. I keep telling myself that I should buy another set of Gore cables but havent got around to it. In reality regular cables work fine if you clean them & periodically lube them.

I like C.P.'s full housing idea, I do that for the brakes on one of my bikes.

[Tim]

Full housing is good -- also consider getting a 10-pack of teflon inner cables from Pricepoint and just changing them often. Another trick is to use shift housing for brakes -- it's designed to compress less, which is just what you want in a brake housing, if you think about it.

Tim

[Raymo853]

I have used Avid Flak jackets or simular sealed systems for years. Usually chaning the brake twice per year and the derailuer cables once per year.

When I got a new frame I went back to normal cables. In about two months of riding all of the cables were all gummed up with dirt and barely working at all. Shifting was poor and required lots of force on moving to a bigger cog and lots of hope when downshifting. The braking was about on part with a Wal-Mart huffy.

I went back to Avid Flaks and will not make the mistake of straying again. well I do plan on trying out the articulated metal cables.

[T Grimble]

To be more descriptive, I had two problems with the Avid Flack Jackets. Both problems were related to the ferrules. The first is that they are plastic. These do not hold up. If the cable has a good bend they tend to crimp the ferrule and that binds the cable. The second problem is rather unique. The last Ferrule on the rear is thicker at the bottom. I don't know whey but the thickness of this end piece exactly corresponded with the depth of the SRAM derailleur I was inserting it into. Within a ride or two the Ferrule had sheared right at that line and had bound the cable.

The concept of the sealed system is good. I have used tubing over the exposed part of the cable before and this helps to keep the system clean even without the special ferrules that this tube is supposed to fit into. I like Snirch's advice about soldering the cable instead of crimping the end. I tried to do this once without success but I didn't use flux so it didn't draw into the cable. I will give it another try. I would guess that you can not solder on a Teflon cable but I agree with Couch that the Teflon just comes off anyways. I don't know where it goes and would think that Teflon (by nature) can’t gum up anything. It is just to slippery. But it does come off and I have never appreciated an advantage to having it.

So the combined logic seems to be:
*Standard housing with much care taken to trim it square (maybe segmented housing if you are into that or have a tight bend).
*Standard cable with soldered ends.
*Good quality metal Ferrules preferably with the little gaskets in them.
*Outer tubing to cover the exposed length of cable.
*Same housing for breaks and drive train.
*Clean and lube regularly.

[steve_b]

I have had great luck with these:
http://www.jagwire.com.tw/frame.htm

I ran Jagwire for all 4 cables last year, with the der. cables w/o housing, in the slop we had last year and never had a shifting problem. You can find them cheap on Ebay and other retail shops. Enter search term "jagwire".

[mattymueller]

ACTUNG! Do not waste Your money. Avids suck. Awsome brakes, terrible cables. Buy regular cable. Regular housing. Lube with teflon fortified grease. Run Full Length cable housing. NEVER FAIL. No kidding. Come and squeeze my brakes. MMMMMMMM,brakes.

[Raymo853]

I just installed Nokia articulated metal brake cable and housing last night. I love them, so far. The braking is back to the full-lock with two fingers that I like and have great lever feelback. They were easy to instal.

Now granted I did switch out my old crusty sloppy XTR v-brakes for new Avid 7's so I am unsure what all has caused the improvement. Only time will tell if they are durable.

[T Grimble]

Ok Snirch.
I tried the solder thing this last weekend and didn't have much luck. The flux didn't seem to pull the metal into the cable at all so it just ran off the surface. Is the probelm with my technique (I am using a similar method to soldering a pipe). or is it with my materials? I am using basic plumbing flux and solder and a LP torch.

-Tom

Time to go to radio shack. Flux core solder and a soldering iron. I think you got to much tool for the job there Tom.

While your there check out the heat shrink tubing. You can use it to make your own gaskets from the ferule to the cable.

Clear epoxy also works for cable ends. Less temp but cure time can be a pain.

Secretly i think Tom already knows all this but just wants to see his thread break 2 pages ;D

justbill
(thread view record holder)

[Hoo-Koo-Eee-Koo]

On the subject of soldering cable ends to 1) prevent them from getting frayed, and 2) permit the cables to be removed and re-installed...

It isn't necessary to get the solder to wick up the cable, although it is ideal. It is difficult to get wicking with stainless cables and/or cables that have been coated, e.g., with Teflon.

I trim the ends of my cables using a rotary cut-off wheel, a.k.a. Dremel tool. This produces a smooth clean face at the cable end. The solder can adhere to this face using a mildly activated soldering flux. I use tin-lead plumbing solder (limited availability these days) or tin-lead solder for electronic components.

The trick is getting enough solder to remain on the cable end. It is easier with the old plumber's solder because, unlike the electronics solder, the plumbers solder has a wider melting range and thus can be worked when it is not so fluid. It helps to use gravity to assist as well. I use an electric soldering iron (also used for art glass work) on which I deposit a thick pool of solder and flux. Apply flux to the cable end and dip the cable end into the molten solder.

After soldering, I use the same rotary tool to de-burr the cable end and put a small chamfer (edge break) around the end so it can be removed and re-installed if/when desired.

Although I havent tried it on bike cables, it is probably not too difficult to "pot" the cable end by casting the solder around the cable using a simple mold which could be made out of wood or a bar of soap. With this technique, the cable end will not pass back through the housing unless the end is trimmed or the solder is re-melted.

[pk]

Regular cables are fine.... if you ride in fine weather and don't mind cleaning the cable and the housing.

For the rest of us, Gore-Tex is the way to go. Split the cost ($35) with a buddy and use only for the rear. You'll have hassle free shifting, in all climates, for years.

But if you're in the habit of trashing your derailleur, make sure you leave plenty of extra cable so you can snip off the ends.

Forget solder. Waste of time, IMHO.

pk

ps. I like Gore so much, I even run them on my SS! :)

[Hoo-Koo-Eee-Koo]

Full housing is good -- also consider getting a 10-pack of teflon inner cables from Pricepoint and just changing them often. Another trick is to use shift housing for brakes -- it's designed to compress less, which is just what you want in a brake housing, if you think about it.

Tim


WARNING: Doesn't Shimano warn against using shifter housing for brakes? Shifter housing is not designed for the loads to which brake housing can be subjected. Evidently, a shifter housing can fail catastrophically when subjected to high loads in a braking application.

I believe this issue is also discussed in the FAQ for rec.bicycles.tech, if anyone is interested.

[bob24250]

I have seen quite a few of posts praising the gore cables. Where are you getting them? I would like to try them out, especially on my commuter. I have seen the Gore brake cables but not shifter cables. ???

[Tim]

Full housing is good -- also consider getting a 10-pack of teflon inner cables from Pricepoint and just changing them often. Another trick is to use shift housing for brakes -- it's designed to compress less, which is just what you want in a brake housing, if you think about it.

Tim


WARNING: Doesn't Shimano warn against using shifter housing for brakes? Shifter housing is not designed for the loads to which brake housing can be subjected. Evidently, a shifter housing can fail catastrophically when subjected to high loads in a braking application.

I believe this issue is also discussed in the FAQ for rec.bicycles.tech, if anyone is interested.


Haven't read Shimano's warning, but it wouldn't surprise me -- Shimano always wants to sell you stuff that has only one use -- helps maximize their profits. The longitudinal wires in Shimano shifter housing could split, I guess, and result in losing braking power -- maybe that's what they're talking about.

I use Jagwire kevlar housing and some special reinforced cable ferrules that are made for just this purpose -- grab a look at the cables section of www.biketoolsetc.com if you want to find out more.

Tim

[C.P.]

Found these surfin around. They are similar to a cable oiler tool I used to have. They are probably difficult to find though.

http://www.middleburn.co.uk/access_cableoilers.php

[turch]

Ok Snirch.
I tried the solder thing this last weekend and didn't have much luck. The flux didn't seem to pull the metal into the cable at all so it just ran off the surface. Is the probelm with my technique (I am using a similar method to soldering a pipe). or is it with my materials? I am using basic plumbing flux and solder and a LP torch.

-Tom

I'd think that the torch only helps to blow the solder away and is way overkill. Keep in mind that flux is used to clean the target surface (it's an acid). Used on Stainless is a pain but possible (part of what's needed here is to get the flux/acid to rough up the surface of the SS wire). Using on Telfon requires removing (i.e. cooking off the teflon). Use an iron and liberal flux, sometime repeatedly because you want to clean into the braids. Then the trick to getting the solder to draw up the braid is to manage to get an 1/8" or so of the cable segment hot enough. Patience. It will work. When initially done it may look all gooped up with solder. This is fine. Lightly grind and polish the excess off.

Overkill (and PK's point of view is well taken)? Maybe. But done properly and effectively it looks oh so sweet and makes tear down and cable reuse practical.

I certainly agree with the Gore-on 'split' idea. Use it on the rear where it's really necessary. Heck I've got a SIS cable on right now but an extra Gore-on in my kit (the second from my last use - see I have no friends) for when the SIS finally blows.

[T Grimble]

I was talking to the parts buyer for BWW today.
Aparently, Gore Ride-On cables are no longer being made. :'(

[fatire]

I was talking to the parts buyer for BWW today.
Aparently, Gore Ride-On cables are no longer being made. :'(
Hey Tom,
Was hunting on e-bay for Gore shift acbles and found these guys.
$35 shipped, length not specified.
No idea how they compare though!

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[Quo Fan]

I use teflon cables and those aluminum squishy thingy's on the ends. I cut my cables with a Lifu Cable Cutter, works the bomb, clean, square cut every time.

My $.02