Makes ya think?

[EVIL BOTA]

People over 25 should be dead!
>
>To the survivors:
>
>According to today's regulators and bureaucrats, those of us who were kids
>in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's probably shouldn't have survived.
>
>Our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paint. We had
>no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets, and when we
>rode our bikes, we had no helmets. (Not to mention the risks we took
>hitchhiking.)
>
>As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags.
>Riding in the back of a pickup truck on a warm day was always a special
>treat.
>
>We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle. Horrors! We
>shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle, and no one
>actually died from this.
>
>We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank soda pop with sugar in it,
>but we were never overweight because we were always outside playing..
>
>We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were
>back when the street lights came on.
>No one was able to reach us all day. No cell phones. Unthinkable.
>
>We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then rode
>down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into
>the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.
>
>We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no video games at all,
>no 99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound, personal cell
>phones, personal computers, or Internet chat rooms.
>
>We had friends! We went outside and found them.
>
>We fell out of trees, got cut and broke bones and teeth,and there were no
>lawsuits from these accidents.
>
>We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and ate worms, and although
>we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes, nor did
>the worms live inside us forever.
>
>We rode bikes or walked to a friend's home and knocked on the door, or
>rang the bell or just walked in and talked to them.
>
>Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team.
>Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment.
>
>The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a law was unheard of.
>They actually sided with the law. Imagine that!
>
>This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem
>solvers and inventors, ever. The past 50 years have been an explosion of
>innovation and new ideas.
>
>We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to
>deal with it all.
>
>And you're one of them!
>
>Congratulations. Please pass this on to others who have had the luck to
>grow up as kids, before lawyers and government regulated our lives, for
>our own good.
>
>Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors?
>
>A must read for people over 25 yrs of age.

[huff'npuff]

There really were "The Good Old Days". I remember them well!(and fondly!)

[knucklebuste]

YAH HA?
WHOS IDEA WAS THE 40 HOUR WORK WEEK?
ROTTING IN A GREY CUBE (WELL A GREY OFFICE) 40 HOURS A WEEK. IT'S NOT RIGHT. IT SUCKS.
I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT EITHER "WELL, EVERYBODY WORKS 40 HOURS, YOU JUST HAVE TO ACCEPT IT"
NOT
I HATE IT. HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE
I RODE MY BIKE FOR 7 HOURS BETWEEN SAT AND SUN, AND NOW I'M BACK FOR ANOTHER 40 HOURS IN JAIL
IT'S NOT RIGHT.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :'( >:( :( ??? :-\ :'( >:( :(
Knuckle

[narlus]

right about now i'd kill for a 40 hr work week. it's been a solid year of 55-60 hr per.

i suppose that it could be worse; my good friend who works @ Accenture regularly pulls 80-100 hr work weeks. :o

[CouchingTiger]

Ya know, the key to the work work and work loads are is up to each and every one of us. If you don't like it, don't do it. The problem is that we have all gotten far too fond of the all mighty dollar and the high standards of living. People are greedy, plain and simple.

Why do you think working couples making $100k/ea who decide to have kids before it's too late they pay someone to raise their kids for them for $25k so they can go back to their $100k gig? Greed, plain and simple. People don't want to give up their McMansions or two euro-trash cars just for the sake of the "kids".

Most of us were raised by our parent(s) and not someone else. We had someone at home when we got there after school and we didn't get shuffled to day care from day one. We had someone to discipline us if were we a$$holes. We didn't have the liability that kids do these days either.

Bottom line is that if things don't change and individuals start taking responsibility for their own actions (be that for/to their children or themselves), things can only get worse. Life is just too complicated and we ALL keep biting off more than we can chew. Inevitably, things fall off the end. Some times they are things we really can't afford to lose sight of.

-Couch

[knucklebuste]

right about now i'd kill for a 40 hr work week. it's been a solid year of 55-60 hr per.

i suppose that it could be worse; my good friend who works @ Accenture regularly pulls 80-100 hr work weeks. :o


I know a couple Oracle donkeys that work for Accenture. 100 hrs a week? :-X not worth it man. I get calls all week for jobs in Boston for 80-120k/yr. NOT. I make 1/2 that now, but only work 40 hrs a week and 5 minutes from my house. The stress of a 3 hr daily commute is not worth it. NOT. These companies are greedy a**holes, they don't care if you have no life. And when the chips are down, out you go. Big business only cares about one thing, big business. If you are not a viable contributor to that. SEE YA. Mr CFO doesn't care about your mortgage, just as long as his pockets are lined with fat cash. That's why I have the bad attitude I do. I do my job and no one complains. However, DON'T YOU DARE ASK ME TO ATTEND YOUR CHRISTMAS PARTY. That enrages me to no end. Or the ;D COMPANY PICNIC ;D
Do you really think I need to hang with the donkeys at work on off work hours? I see these jerks more than my own wife and kid. IT'S NOT RIGHT. Why not have the company picnic on a Monday between 8-4? We'll lose too much MONEY if we did that, lets have it on a Saturday or a Friday night. Yeah ha? Ya know what my dream is? To operate a harvester out in the woods. No computes, no people, no fone, nothing; oh and no money. But since I opted to have a house, I'm stuck in IT.
Definition of IT
Information Technology - thousands and thousands of dollars, nothing but endless problems.
Oh shite, sorry, just my typical Monday rage.
Couch is right. Kids these days are riding on the downward spiral of doom. Perhaps it's the day care thing. My X sits at home, does not work and lives off my child support. I never beat her down for having no aspirations in life and relying on income solely produced by someone else. I would never operate like that. However, my kid has a parent to come home to at 3:00 in the afternoon and there is nothing more important than that and I don't have to worry about my kid getting scabies, lice and c-diff in some dirty a** day care center with a priest for a baby sitter. Kids these days have no fear either. When I was 12, 15, 17, I would not dare speak up to anyone older than I. These days it's f*** you, I'll kill you. There's no fear. I don't have the solutions. It's nuts. However when you think about stuff, you have to ask yourself as well, have things really changed that much, or has the flow of information increased to the point where we hear everything, either via pda, phone, internet, email, tv, radio. I always though the Earth was a wonderful place when I was young and I think it's due to the fact that I did not watch the news. My parents did, but I couldn't care less. I think people have just freaked themselves out sometimes by the ammount of information they receive nowadays. Sensory overload, and when you overload the senses with negativity, you become that as well. If you never watch the news, sit down at 6:00 and turn on channel 7.
Murder, Rape, Suicide, Multiple injury Car accident, shooting, identity theft, bombing, floods, fires, guns. Wheres the good? They have no good news to report. Why? Is there no good news? Why of course there is, but people are sick, sick in the head and thats what they want. Crazy isn't it?
That's why I like mountain biking so much. When I'm out in the woods, I get into a trance. I don't think about all this crap. News, work, society. It's total bliss if you ask me. There's nothing that can replace the peace that you get from being out in the woods. Things seem different. The air smells different. It's what I crave more than anything, and the time at work outweighs the time on the bike. That's what gets to me so much. People think I'm nuts for mountain biking. "You'll get hurt" "It's too hard" "It's too cold" "That sucks"
All my friends. No one wants to do anything except watch Foo-ball and drink beer. Man, they have no idea. Mountain biking is the best damn thing that's ever happened to me ::) well the 3rd best, child being 1st, wife being 2nd. So as you read these words, set aside some time for yourself. GET AWAY FROM IT. GET OUT IN THE WOODS, and most important of all, stay the hell away from the news if you really want to keep a sound mind.
Knuckle

[CouchingTiger]

Rage on brother Knuck ;)

Agreed.

Urban rat-race sucks.

BTW, bumped into Hogboy this weekend. He's broke and working as a laborer up in ME. Doesn't know where the next payday will come from but hell, he seemed to be pretty happy living with the basics.

We have all been conditioned to want it all. The problem is that you can't have it all. Everything has a price. The amount of money you have is typically inversely proportional to the amount of free time you have to enjoy said money. The rest is all about trying to balance that equation as much in your favor as possible. That is why we have the sick road rage and everyone hates everyone else (that and movies and video games, but that's a whole different can of worms). We see everyone else as being directly impeding our success at balancing the equasion.

Reality is simple. There is only one enemy, time. It keeps marching against us and there is nothing we can do about it. Make the most of it because you can't buy more with that precious wealth.

-Couch

Couch,

i am wit you.

bill

[knucklebuste]

Well when you come down to it, all you really need is a bike.
Knuck

[Jisch]

Ya know what I think?

I've got two kids - 10 and 12 y.o. They are relatively intelligent, active and creative.

I have a high stress job. I sell to IT. You think its tough to work in IT, try selling to them in this environment.

Anyway - I digress - as I help to shape these youngsters into adults I consider what I want them to care about. ITS NOT MONEY!!!! I think of where I could be right now if I didn't have an expensive house etc (hey even having kids is an expensive proposition).

I don't know, I'm thinking I'd like them to spend their life enjoying what they do, not chasing the mighty buck like I am. I don't want to foster a couple of hippy do nothings, but there's got to be a better way...

John

[narlus]

Ya know, the key to the work work and work loads are is up to each and every one of us. If you don't like it, don't do it. The problem is that we have all gotten far too fond of the all mighty dollar and the high standards of living. People are greedy, plain and simple.


true, but america (ie, wall street) has a lot to do w/ this. europeans typically take a two week holiday in the summer, and then at least 2 more weeks during other times. the work week is 40-45; england is starting to become "americanized" in that their work week is gradually getting longer and longer. and if you don't want to work it, the company may find someone else who will, or give you crappy raises. ah, the market pressures.

and couch, i'd say the relative situation between DINKS like yrself and SITKs (single income, two kids) like myself is a bit different! plus, i need a new DH sled for '05. ;)

hey knuck, that post was the best you've ever written!

[huff'npuff]

I commend all of your posts. Each one of you seem to have a good head on your shoulder.
You all seem to feel entangled in the economic web that "society" has spun. Just remember....you are "society".
You want to bring your kids up with values? You more than likely are doing just that by example. Getting out into the woods and enjoying time away from the rigors of daily stress is one of the best ways to show your kids that there's more to life than just the almighty dollar.
You,each one of you,seem to be sensitive to the environment and to family. That is a legacy that your children will certainly appreciate. You're already forming the next generation. Keep up the good work. You all deserve medals- I'd hate to be bringing up our son in today's world.
Just my two cents' worth.

[CouchingTiger]

I'm not knocking the SITKs (single-income-two-kids) in any way. That was the 50/60's stereotype norm (mom at home, multi kids, upper middle class, nice home, dad works high-tech. Just like in Leave it to Beaver ;)

I recognize that it's hard to get by these days, but that really depends on at what level. All I'm saying is that we can almost all do with much less. I'll be the first to say that I don't need nearly the kind of money we earn, but my wife and I tend to live well below our means. We have a decent house in a decent town, but it's not one of the new, fancy $850k(+) McMansions. Sure, if we both wanted to have to work at our current level we could have a fancy a$$ house vs. the crappy 1950's ranch but it's just not worth it to us. We could also drive euro rigs or some showy car. Instead we go practical and have Toyota's.

I realize that my wife and I are in a different situation than most. We have almost no debt (a small mortgage on the house here in Bedford is all) and we own everything else outright. We also make very good wages and can afford to pay as we go. Granted, no kids, but we spend quite a bit on other stuff (like biking) and still have a boat load left over.

I grew up in a family of 5 that didn't have much. I currently make about 5x what my dad (the sole provider for the family) made when I was a kid in the late 80's. I'm used to not having and doing without, which shaped my spending and more importantly saving habits. I think folks get lulled by luxuries into a pattern, expectation and necessity of their current level of income. Folks never take into account that that can change, instantly. They aren't prepared for it. We are a buy-now-pay-later society that has to have the latest/greatest regardless of whether or not they can afford it.

-Couch

[narlus]

mkr, i definitely agree w/ what you posted. the consumerism pushed down our throats is mind-boggling.

one benefit of living in dublin is that although it's exorbitantly expensive to live here, we've definitely simplified our lives considerably by leaving a lot of material possessions back home, and getting along just fine w/o them.

from my slight experience base, i'd say that europeans tend to value societal and personal interactions over physical goods (ie, they'd rather spend $ on travel, eating/drinking out, etc, than on buying the latest/greatest). partly shaping this is that houses and cars are much smaller on average as well; there'd be no place to put all the stuff!

hell, i should have larry dump a crapload of our stuff on ebay. ;)

[CouchingTiger]

I'm with ya Timbo, except for the part about giving up my stuff. That isn't going to happen, ever ;)

-Couch

[knucklebuste]

I was just thinking of how we have changed since the caveman days. When you really think about it, we are all still hunter-gatherers. It's just that now we hunt at stop and shop. But the core of human existince is to hunt (eat) and to gather (acquire posessions). When you really think about it, what the hell else is there to do? Hunter-Gatherer, that's actually a book. My dad was telling me about it. I'll get the name of it, interesting shite.
Knuck

[C.P.]

This stuff is on my mind all the time. Mostly, because I dispize being in the rat race - a place I've put myself in...at least I recognize that... The thing that keeps it in my mind are the fond memories of a simpler life I had when I worked on a farm, had a stress free lifestyle, (and was car free) and used a bicycle for all of my transportation - it sure was a way to clear the mind if I did have any stress to reduce at the end of the day.

We all have the intelligence to identify the craziness that this society can get us into. We are all taught how to react by by the environment we live in...tons of pressure to have it all...as long as you can see through the "INFORMATION OVERLOAD" we are all exposed to every day - and cherish the simple things in life, we will all be better off.

[AA]

I want going to chime in but as usual I cant help myself. Couch is right (it hurts me to admit it ;D). We live in a culture of entitlement. People think that they "deserve" to have the same material things as the next guy and will often do anything to get it. I remeber when I bought my house 5 years ago. The real estate agent & the bank kept trying to loan us more $$. We bought a pretty cheap house that I felt we could afford and it turned out to be the right decision. Sure its taken me 5 years to fix it up but at least I'm not in debt up to my eyeballs.

My wife works with professional people that make big money that live check to check because they carry such a high level of debt. There are folks my wife works with that openly talk about their money problems. Here is an example of a woman who has one kid and a husband with a good job their combined income is around $190k.

If I remember correctly here are the monthly expenses:
mortage $4500
car leases $900
daycare $1000
school loans $600
credit card debt (total ~$40,000) monthly ~$500

By the time all the bills are paid, you buy groceries and gas up 2 sport utes there aint a lot of $$ leftover. The funny thing is that this woman thinks that the school loans are the big drain on her cash flow (pssst it's not the school loans dummy). Do you really need to live in a house that big? No. Do you need 2 car leases that total $900? No.

It's funny how people think. A few years ago my wife bought a Honda CRV. Not an expensive car but not super cheap either. A lot of people she worked with wanted to know why she didnt buy a more expensive car. It was inconceivable to them that she wasnt going to spend the maximum amount. We live in a society that has a negative savings rate (the average person has personal debt greater than their savings. Personal debt excludes housing.) Most people are totally screwed if they miss one paycheck......... OK I'm rambling. Wasnt this thread supposed to be about eating lead paint chips riding around w/out seatbelts, running with scissors?

[knucklebuste]

If I remember correctly here are the monthly expenses:
mortage $4500
car leases $900
daycare $1000
school loans $600
credit card debt (total ~$40,000) monthly ~$500

4500 stinks a month?
JHFC, where do they live, Dover?
HOLY SHITE. I thought my 2k/mo was bad
JEESH.
Knuck

[AA]

4500 stinks a month?
JHFC, where do they live, Dover?
HOLY SHITE. I thought my 2k/mo was bad
JEESH.
Knuck



Actually Andover (sounds like Dover but further north)

[CouchingTiger]

Yea, that's a ton, like a $750k note at 6% for 30 years, but it's not unheard of and that doesn't take into account the other junk that becomes part of your mortgage payment (like tax and insurance escrow). Figure on a million dollar place, the taxes would have to be near $10k/yr so theres another grand a month into the kitty.

AA right that too many folks that make LOTS of money, are broke. I hear about it all the time, how folks making over a hundred grand can't make ends meet. Whose fault is that (and don't tell me it's society's fault because there is only one person to blame for that one).

-Couch

[nhiker]

This is all pointing at what I feel is the numero uno issue with our society today. The over emphasis on material things and obtaining them. We as a society definetly chase the status symbol possesions way to much. I too suffer from this syndrom. I don't really have much but I would love a brand new SUV with a bike rack Yakima on top with a brand spanking new SC Blurr monted in it. I mean christ I am a fairly mediocre rider so my beat up 3 yr old GT I drive is fine. My 7 yr old beat up cherokee is fine for getting me back and fourth to rides and work.

If you want some to see this reach epidemic proportions well here come the jolly old christmas season....whoopi doo!
Personnally this condition really does nothing for me yet I keep feeding it. In the end it does not help my self esteem in anyway. Things wear out and loose there luster. I really love ridding and hiking because they give me a sence of peace and serenity!

[knucklebuste]

I have this one question. Between my wife and I, we make over 130 a year. We qualified for about 275k for a crib. Where the phuck do these people work that are buying all these houses for 400k? I think it's a government conspiracy. I don't think the people in those hoods are real. I think they are aliens. What do you think? Like I said, we make over 130k a year and damn near killed ourselves dealing with the bank to get into a 230k house, which by the way was the cheapest house in Massachusetts around 03/02.
Where do these peeps work. I'm not bitchin, I could care less about a 400k crib. Just a larger area to repair when shite breaks. I only fix bikes. I don't landscape, shovel, mow lawn, rake leaves. I only do bikes. Knuck

[CouchingTiger]

I have this one question. Between my wife and I, we make over 130 a year. We qualified for about 275k for a crib. Where the phuck do these people work that are buying all these houses for 400k? I think it's a government conspiracy. I don't think the people in those hoods are real. I think they are aliens. What do you think? Like I said, we make over 130k a year and damn near killed ourselves dealing with the bank to get into a 230k house, which by the way was the cheapest house in Massachusetts around 03/02.
Where do these peeps work. I'm not bitchin, I could care less about a 400k crib. Just a larger area to repair when shite breaks. I only fix bikes. I don't landscape, shovel, mow lawn, rake leaves. I only do bikes. Knuck


I think the folks w/ the big McMansions like the new ones in Bedford ($1M+) all must have struck it rich on the .com boom and have a mill or two in the bank so they basically pay cashola for the house. Really, there aren't that many folks that make enuf to carry an $800k mortgage.

Thing is though, where I live, you can't get a house anymore for less than $300k. Heck, my little slice of heaven (which I bought in '96) is currently valued at near $400k.

-Couch

[narlus]

i think that trading up definitely helps too...if you turn equity from a previous house into the down payment it can definitely help, esp in these crazy real estate times. the people cracking into the market now or in the last 3-4 years are the ones who got pooched. we actually lucked out big time, in that we bought and sold a small condo in boston at the right time, and moved to the 'burbs at the right time ('96). we also had the good fortune of having the company i work for getting bought out at that time.

[Slider]

My wife and I chose to leave metro Boston. Here in "The Quiet Corner" of Connecticut, we've got seven rooms on three acres, a finished, heated barn for my office and bike shop, a second barn that's converted to a two car garage, low crime, easy access to Boston, NY, and Hartford, and, best of all, absolutely amazing biking, all for less than what a six room cape on a third of an acre would have cost almost anywhere inside the 495 belt.

We consciously chose this area to avoid being "house poor."

Telecommuting rules!

[steve_b]

Where the phuck do these people work that are buying all these houses for 400k?

I wonder the same thing myself. If it makes you feel any better, it's not limited to greater Boston. Here in the greater Albany, NY area, (specifically Saratoga county), They are throwing in developments on every f-ing empty piece of property they can buy up and build on. And these houses they are building, WTF. Who is buying all of these $350,000+ / 5,000+ sq ft places? ???