Wet leaves and pinch flats

[titus1]

Need some help.
This morning's ride in through the Blue Hills was challenging with wet leaves (lots of them), wet roots under wet leaves and of course the ever present wet rocks covered by those wet leaves again. Paul Simon's song, "Slip Sliddin' Away" just kept going through my head the whole time I was out there.

The problem:
I know that riding with lower pressure will give better contact, but after having a string of pinch flats from running at 34psi I have gone back to higher pressure ~40-42psi. I'm on an FS running a Nokia Core G... (some long word I can't spell).

Ques: Any ideas out there on how best to ride this stuff? Is there a balance/ideal pressure to run at, or all trial and error? What tires have you had the most success with this time of year?

All input most appreciated.

John

[narlus]

a couple of suggestions. use tubeless tires, or go w/ a softer compound rubber on yr tire. not sure what comes in XC style though, but maxxis makes some nice soft durometer DH tires.

[gungywump]

Look into the Kenda Stick-E tires. They offer alot of grip in most any condition. ;)

[jsb2dc]

I don't know what diameter tires you use, but bigger is better. I've been running 2.4 Motoraptors for almost three years now and have only had three pinch flats (all three hitting a sharp object at speed.) I run them at 35 psi. Much better for traction and I almost never flat out.

[steve_b]

I agree with Narlus. Switch to tubeless, or the next best thing, a Stan's setup. I switched last year 'cause the place I ride the most is all shale, and was pinching constantly. After 3 flats in 4 rides, I converted to Stan's. Some of the best $$$ spent to date on my bike.

[CouchingTiger]

I think that tire seletion will have some beneficial gain but basically, chalk it up to riding in adverse conditions. Wet slippery stuff sux on two wheel, regardless, it may just suck a littl less w/ a better tire selection.

I've never used tubeless tires but I gotta say that it really seems like a stupid idea to me. The only person I've ridden with that has used them, constantly lost air when they would slightly roll the tire off the bead. How many motorcycles (dirtbikes) do you see run tubeless? EZ, none. IMHO, marketing gimick to sell a product that fixed an issue that wasn't broken. Tubless weigh more and are still failure prone, just like tube tires. The abil;ity to run lower pressure is also a myth unless you consider having to re-inflate periodically cause you fart out air when you roll the bead and less of an issue than an occasional pinch flat from running lower pressure.

What you need in order to make the tubeless model work with low pressure is the same trick that is employed by rock crawlers (4x4's). Big a$$ bead lockers that physically lock (as in bolt) the tire bead to the rim. A trick that will help this on bikes is tubeless cement (or rubber cement/contact cement) between the bead and the rim. Of couse, try and get it off should you get a thorn in the tire ;)

-Couch

[bdee]

Try running a wider tire, I love my 2.4 WTB Moto Raptors in most conditions. For my bikes with limited clearance I run the Panaracer XC Pro 2.0 - this works real well at lower pressures as well. If you can find them, and don't mind the weight penalty, the WTB Mutanoraptor NorCal edition tires (2.4) will stick to anything. (Supergo used to carry them). Seriously, they will make it feel like you are cheating. They do weigh about 2 lbs a piece, and when they are new they will fling bits of dirt in your face while riding, but they do deliver on the promise of traction. Try riding relaxed and with lots of flow in the slippery stuff - going to slow or being tentative (sp?) will make it far worse. good luck

[Slider]

Let's talk technique for a minute.

Stay more upright, and move your body as opposed to the bike. Hang off, like a motorcyclist, and keep the bike more vertical.

When you do lean the bike, keep your weight centered and above the frame. Weight the outside pedal hard.

Be loose on the bike. Give it its head a bit, and let it move beneath you. Small weight and bar corrections go a long way when both wheels are loose.

Always assume you'll slide, and look for a berm or other turning aide (rock, tree, root that points the right way), as a last resort if the traction simply isn't what you hoped it would be.

Choose your lines to offer the most options if the wheels let go. Starting inside on a corner gives you the full trail width to correct a slide. If you are already on the outside of the turn, going wide usually means a date with a tree.

Be comfortable in the slide. Don't panic. Ride it out. Winter riding is great training for this. When there's snow on the ground, throw the bike around as much as possible, trying every possible cornering attitude. If the snow is deep alongside trhe worn path you're riding, and a slide really gets away from you, you can simply toss the whole mess into the deep stuff for a painless dismount.

With an avatar like mine, you knew I'd have an opinion on this.

[Mt.A TODD]

Totally unscientific but it works for me. Find a sharp rock with a corner or edge in the parking lot. Put your rear tire on that rock. Push down with all your might in quick jolts and watch how the tire compresses. Keep letting air out until you reach the perceived pinch flat zone. Or you could tell Couching Pussy to go screw himself and buy yourself a set of tubeless tires, cause UST's with Stan's RULE!

[C.P.]

Hey John,
This time of year presents a bunch of challenges that seem to never end, as we go from thick leaf cover over hidden rocks to slippery ice and even snow...That said, the only changes I make are to add a little more pressure to my tires (tubeless or tubed) as it variably protects me from tire damage resulting in a flat from those sudden hard "hidden" impacts - you know, the type of hits that you mostly avoid the rest of the year b/c they are easily seen - sharp edged rocks etc.

I don't change my tires to accomodate these conditions.
However, I DO run a softer durometer (rubber density) DH tire year round anyways so that helps to begin with...heard those Kenda Stick-E tires work well too...

Couch - re tubeless - you gotta try it out YOURSELF! and make another opinion, and only observing another fellow rider just aint enough - Tubeless has been improving quite a bit these days...especially with the advent some riders have used by putting Stans in a tubeless tire/rim combo.

On a similar note - right now folks in the industry are heckling those that want to put disc brakes on road bikes...keep your eyes peeled - that too will have it's day!

[Mt.A TODD]

I've never used tubeless tires but I gotta say that it really seems like a stupid idea to me. The only person I've ridden with that has used them, constantly lost air when they would slightly roll the tire off the bead.


The more I think about it, the more I question this statement. My sister in law claims to have never eaten a slice of pizza. Am I to believe her? She's Chubby. I find it hard to believe that an experience rider and bike hoarder like Couching Tiger has not dabbled in the world of tubeless tires. I smell a conspiracy.

And Titis1… I am re thinking my advice. Although tire pressure and tread design are contributing factors to conquering wet leaves and roots in a manner which prevents casualties of the tube or less. The ultimate key to your success lies within your skill and experience and mostly luck.

[steve_b]

What you need in order to make the tubeless model work with low pressure is the same trick that is employed by rock crawlers (4x4's). Big a$$ bead lockers that physically lock (as in bolt) the tire bead to the rim.

Um.......yeah. Maybe that's why Stan thought of it! ;) The solution that you put inside the tire is liquid latex that forms a cement like bond that joins the tires bead to the rim. That is the secret behind the product. Anyone who is having problems keeping air in the tires with Stan's doesn't have them set up correctly.

[splat]

On a similar note - right now folks in the industry are heckling those that want to put disc brakes on road bikes...keep your eyes peeled - that too will have it's day!


I dissagree with you there. Maybe Cyclo-cross bike , but not on a full out racing bike. Road riders won't be willing to take the weight penalty.

[SteveC]

Funny you should ask about the leaves in the Blue Hills--I just invented a solution to that problem--I mounted a hybrid gas & electric-powered leaf blower to my handlebars. Its a special kind that is not too big so as to not interfere with the front tire and real powerful. Blows the leafs outa your way up to 25 yards. It also incorporates a infrared heater that drys the roots and rocks just after blowing the leafs off them. And after yer ride you can use it to blow all the crusty stuff off yer bike. Oh, and you can inflate yer tires, tubed or not. A even newer prototype, mounted backwards off the seatpost, can even give you extra propulsion to help get you up the next hill. Theres probably lots of other things it could do but I'll keep it clean.... ;)
Seriously though, I LOVE my Motoraptor 2.4 up front, and I'd put one in back but it don't fit. I love it so much I dont even mind deflating/re-inflating every time I ride in order to get the wheel on & off and in/out of the car...I run em @30 psi, with NEVER a pinch flat..'course I weigh @ 170 and ride like a wuss...I have to side with the Tiger on his anti-tubeless stance., I mean you still have to pack a tube in case you getta flat...whatevverrrrr......As far as the leaves are concerned and I personally took a spill under those same conditions in the Blue Hills a coupla weeks ago, and I just posted this dilemma to Rage list last week. My theory is, that after having a good rain, dont ride the next day. Even if the leaves look dry, there's a nasty slime that grows underside the leaf and if it doesnt rain again, that will dry up after another day or so. The funny thing is, that while its raining, yeah you have to ride cautiously, but the slime is dormant. I think maybe even the slime 'drowns' in another big rain(assuming that the slime is a fungus or mold or other living thing) so you could go the next day assuming that it just keeps raining.
The other thing you could do is just have some fun with it and practice powersliding at every corner you come to...nobody said we cant skid on leaves.....
By the way, NO tire can really eliminate the chance that you may hit a slimy patch and take you down like you're on ice.
Ride Cautiously and Carry a Space Blanket. :P
Good luck and happy trails!!
SteveC

[titus1]

Everyone, thanks for the input.

Based on all the responses I've come to the following conclusions. First, get a sticky rear tire (its the rear that slides out on uphill climbs) I have no problems going downhill, yet, and can control those slides when they do happen, but its those climbs that get me when all is covered in 3-4" of leaves, you're trying to keep momentum going uphill and bingo, spin spin, slip slip and your off the bike.

Also, it will take further development of technique. Been more of a roadie most my riding life and only in the last couple of yrs taking up mtb with any serious effort and there is definitely some finesse in all of this.

Couple of other comments: Not ready to transition to tubeless as I prefer the wider range of tire choices I have going the standard tube/tire route - though I have heard good things about Stan's so may go there at some point.

As for disc brakes on a road bike - beleive that will have as much success as Rock Shock had with its road front fork. I'm not a weight weenie, but I do like my road bike light and fast and disc brakes haven't even come close to the weight of a good campy brake set.

On another note, was in Phoenix last week on business and had a chance to visit my frame builder Titus who let me demo a Quasi-Moto which I took out to a local area (about 10min from Titus) called South Mtn. If you ever get down that way, you just have to go take a ride there - simply incredible. Go towards the end of the day, the colors are great, you're riding among seguro cactuses and National Trail will kick your ass. Also, fabulous spirit as it is truly a multi-use area and everyone respects one another - smiles abound.

[CouchingTiger]

Never tried it, never will, and I don't mean I just didn't inhale either ;)

Frankly, I don't have a problem with my tubes/tires. I almost never flat and if I do, it's usually a thorn. I simply run high tire pressure and live with it. Always have and it works for me. Was just never worth the marginal gain in traction to be worrying about flatting. I also don't care for the squishy feel of a soft tire or of a tire rolling off the bead. Wide rims and high-pressure is my battle cry!

You girls go run your fancy tubeless tires and add your air at every junction. Me, I'll be on the conventional tubed tires not really worrying/thinking/caring about my tire setup ;D

-Couch



I've never used tubeless tires but I gotta say that it really seems like a stupid idea to me. The only person I've ridden with that has used them, constantly lost air when they would slightly roll the tire off the bead.


The more I think about it, the more I question this statement. My sister in law claims to have never eaten a slice of pizza. Am I to believe her? She's Chubby. I find it hard to believe that an experience rider and bike hoarder like Couching Tiger has not dabbled in the world of tubeless tires. I smell a conspiracy.

And Titis1… I am re thinking my advice. Although tire pressure and tread design are contributing factors to conquering wet leaves and roots in a manner which prevents casualties of the tube or less. The ultimate key to your success lies within your skill and experience and mostly luck.

[steve_b]

Titus1:

If / when you decide you might want to try Stan's, take a look here: http://www.notubes.com/ Under the NoTubes section there are videos that show you about the product. With the Stan's setup, you can run most of the tires on the market. I ran IRC Mythos this year and Michelin's last year and the only flats I had were from the sidewalls ripping on a rock. Once you have the tires seated properly on the rims you might have to top off the air once a week. If you are a chronic pinch-flatter, give it a try. $55 well spent IMO.

[C.P.]

On a similar note - right now folks in the industry are heckling those that want to put disc brakes on road bikes...keep your eyes peeled - that too will have it's day!


I dissagree with you there. Maybe Cyclo-cross bike , but not on a full out racing bike. Road riders won't be willing to take the weight penalty.


We've officially left the tire/leaf issue behind - maybe this should be a new topic...

Splat, the UCI just passed a rule that bans disc brake use (for pros) on cyclocross bikes started Nov 1 03. This could lead to the demise of any road/cyclocross disc brake innovation...

I agree, there are too many weight penalties when we think of the current technology disc brakes require - but quite a few differences exist in frame and wheel design when disc brakes are specified on cyclocross frames -
Like - thinner walled seat stay tubing - weight savings
Like - some of the wheels velomax is developing with lighter weight rims (no braking surfaces required) of course added weight with hub flanges etc...it will be interesting to see the developments...

One of the challenges the industry has right now are the accomodations these new ALL carbon road wheelsets must have to accomodate rim braking and associated wear & tar it causes to rim (heat/friction etc) - perhaps the answer is disc brakes...Morati has a ti road bike with hayes mechanical discs - it could be a dead issue (road bike discs) with cycling seemingly waning...

[AA]

Titus1:

If / when you decide you might want to try Stan's, take a look here: http://www.notubes.com/ Under the NoTubes section there are videos that show you about the product. With the Stan's setup, you can run most of the tires on the market. I ran IRC Mythos this year and Michelin's last year and the only flats I had were from the sidewalls ripping on a rock. Once you have the tires seated properly on the rims you might have to top off the air once a week. If you are a chronic pinch-flatter, give it a try. $55 well spent IMO.



for those that havent seen this link check it out

http://www.paradigmhosting.net/yes_tubes/index.htm

[knucklebuste]

WOW, another tube/notube arguement............ahem........discussion.
I think tire selection has a major affect on this fellas.
I've been running hardass tires on all my bikes. I mean WTB's and Gazza's
The only time I got a flat was on my hardtail when I was running 25psi in my WTB Weirwolf 2.5's on my hardtail.
I went to Nam the other week at night with my new bike and it's :o :o :o UST :o :o :o tires and rims (mavic d3.1's and WTB weirwolf 2.1's)
I was hesitant about tubeless. But I said screw it, if I get endless flats, I'll just put tubes in. Mounted these biatches with some stans. The whole mount took 10 minutes tops (with air compressor)
The tires lost about 5 psi per tire a day for the first week, now they are at 35psi just about every time I check them. I've been on these about 20 times already and no flats whatsoever and no burping of air. NONE. Am I sold on tubeless? Dunno. Is it lighter? Not in my case. I think my d3.1's are as heavy as my 321's
Do they roll faster? Don't think so, but again, I chose heavy shite.
So besides the fact that I know in my head that I'm running tubeless do I notice a difference? No
Knuck

[CouchingTiger]

;D

-Couch



Titus1:

If / when you decide you might want to try Stan's, take a look here: http://www.notubes.com/ Under the NoTubes section there are videos that show you about the product. With the Stan's setup, you can run most of the tires on the market. I ran IRC Mythos this year and Michelin's last year and the only flats I had were from the sidewalls ripping on a rock. Once you have the tires seated properly on the rims you might have to top off the air once a week. If you are a chronic pinch-flatter, give it a try. $55 well spent IMO.



for those that havent seen this link check it out

http://www.paradigmhosting.net/yes_tubes/index.htm

[C.P.]

Titus1:

If / when you decide you might want to try Stan's, take a look here: http://www.notubes.com/ Under the NoTubes section there are videos that show you about the product. With the Stan's setup, you can run most of the tires on the market. I ran IRC Mythos this year and Michelin's last year and the only flats I had were from the sidewalls ripping on a rock. Once you have the tires seated properly on the rims you might have to top off the air once a week. If you are a chronic pinch-flatter, give it a try. $55 well spent IMO.



for those that havent seen this link check it out

http://www.paradigmhosting.net/yes_tubes/index.htm


Too funny

[AA]

To be honest I really dont know enough about the UST & Stan's stuff to form an informed opinion. I tend to let newer innovations make their way around the mt bike community before I jump on the bandwaggon. The Yes Tubes site is just plain funny.

[Slider]

I have tubed tires on my Dean hardtail, and UST on my NRS.

I've used Bontrager, Michelin WildGripper, and the original Hutchinson Python UST tires on the rear of the NRS. Partly because the tread designs suck, the USTs feel a lot more squirrelly in the corners. The sidewalls seem to rip easily, too.

USTs just don't seem to bite as hard when leaned over. Put the same tread on a tubed tire and I'd have the same complaint. I like aggressive knobs, especially at the edge of the tread.

I think aggressive knobs would cause problems for lighty inflated tires. Sometimes I hear the bead pop when it's loaded in a fast corner, or off a bad landing. The tire doesn't lose air, but it moves a little. Other times, I've found the tire part way off the rim, ready to let go. Adding air helps, but why run tubeless if you have to run 45psi anyway? Big knobs would compound the problem.

Maybe someday I'll switch the NRS to a meaty tube-type tire with Stans. Gotta wear out these expensive, crappy UST tires first, though. I'll keep running tubes on the Dean. It's old school, and will stay that way.

[johnbryanpeters]

If I ever have a custom road frame built it will have disk brakes. Flat-assed no contest.

It'll also have enough clearance for fenders.

J