"Managing" Vietnam

[Tim]

OK, now that NEMBA is going to own their own chunk of Vietnam, I have a question about liability. Not sure exactly how it works in Massachusetts, but I believe that most states have a recreational use law that prevents a landowner being sued unless a fee is charged, or there is gross negligence. I believe that to reach the threshold of gross negligence NEMBA would have to be aware of, or to have caused, a situation that was inherently unsafe. I think most natural trails would be OK, but I'm wondering specifically about stunts. If NEMBA builds or allows others to build bridges, teeters, or other stunts on the property, could NEMBA get sued if someone got hurt?

Any legal eagles know the real story?

Tim

[C.P.]

Good point. I was looking aropund for the same info just a while ago and found some info on the IMBA page. It doesn't point to the guidelines for MA, but gives a good overview of the risks associated with landowners and MTB access.
Check this out:http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_issues/liability_primer.html


And this:http://www.state.ma.us/dem/programs/coastal/fs_liab.htm

[Tim]

Thanks for the links! It appears from the latter that Massachusetts' recreational use statute protects the landowner from pretty much everything except willful, wanton, or reckless conduct. Anyone know if building stunts would be considered willful, wanton, or reckless? Kinda seems like it might be.

I raise this as an issue because I suspect some folks are thinking that once NEMBA owns this land, it can be made into the second coming of North Van. That might be a problem from a liability standpoint. In addition, I think that various conservation groups are going to be watching to see how things are managed, and their cooperation in any future projects may depend on their perceptions.

Tim

[knucklebuste]

What I still don't understand is how the parking situation is going to be managed. Now that Vietnam is owned by NEMBA how is the parking situation (or lack there of) going to work? More and more people are going to be going there now and what happens when the town of Milford and Holliston get involved and try to put a stop to the parking anwhere near vietnam. We'll have to do shuttlerides to the mouth of NAM. I went there a few times, once with Splat (parked at his crib) and another time parked at Target. Last I heard was some ball field 3 miles away. Isn't there a way to secure some sort of parking thing there so you don't have to worry about getting towed. You know what it will come down to is this - Any car seen withing 4 sq miles of Vietnam with a bike rack on it will be towed away. I try not to be a party pooper, and I'm sure PK has something planned out seeing he's a smart guy. Also, when I went there there was nothing but rock. Splat did the tour and I diddn't find that there was much flow. Sure there are tons of drops and whatnot, but are there any trails in there that have some flow to them, like windy singletrack. I'm sure I diddn't see the whole thing that day and I'm all for helping out cutting new trails. Anyhow, I'm not discluding Nam from my regular riding places, but I wish I diddn't have to worry about parking when I go there. Everywhere you look for 10 square miles around there NO PARKING. What's up with that? Don't they want people outside getting exercize, having fun, rather than sitting around in a bar getting drunk?
Kevin

[AA]

Knuck,

Please SHUT THE F UP!

[knucklebuste]

Don't tell me to shut up. I'm asking legitimate questions. Knuck

[AA]

My problem with you is your constant negitivity. NEMBA just pulled off what no other mt bike advocacy group has ever done and all you do is bitch about the parking. It's too far, it's too cold, it's too dark, my bike is too heavy, my bike wont shift bla bla bla bla................

[Slider]

First: flow at 'Nam. There are some awesome loops, and lots of lines to choose on every trail. You have the "Three Delights" for a climbing workout, and an amazing set of jumps on the main road that parallels the power lines to the East. Winding in and around that is a truly great twisty single track, with ledge drops, berms, ramps and just about anything else you could want. If you take that to the far South side of the place, then cross the power lines to the Western side, there's another single track that rocks, and it ends with a hairy downhill back to route 85.

Alternatively, you can simply ride the power line access road in either direction, which is fun, challenging and effectively links all the natural stunts on the ledges.

You must have simply missed it, Knuck.

[T Grimble]

Lot's of good questions.
Managing 'Nam will be a new challenge for NEMBA but one that I know a lot of people are excited to take on. Vietnam is all about technical riding trails. Always has been and always will be. That is not to say that improvements can't or won't be made. The land management aspect has not been forgotten about. Issues such as liability and ecology will be (and have been) considered. However, there will be ample time to talk about the details. Now is the time to celebrate. We kicked A$$.

[Slider]

Forgot my own question about management of the site: Can we ban those four wheelers that are tearing the place up? The cliff face over near the highway changes every time I ride it, due to continuous erosion by the big-wheel set.

There are some great potential trail sites neat the 85/495 corner, near the highway off-ramp. But any trails there will soon be destroyed by some Jeep driver.

Has NEMBA considered policy on this?

[knucklebuste]

My problem with you is your constant negitivity. NEMBA just pulled off what no other mt bike advocacy group has ever done and all you do is bitch about the parking. It's too far, it's too cold, it's too dark, my bike is too heavy, my bike wont shift bla bla bla bla................


Your way off base man. Yah, I complain about the parking, so what. I'm psyched about it too. I want to be involved as well, and I hereby volunteer my time to the progression of trail-building at nam. It's not too far- I go to Foxboro, which is further than Nam, I have 3 bikes, one of which is heavy. My bike wont shift caus I don't know what the phuck I'm doing. I just gotta hook up with someone again that can show me how to get in there from the 85 side instead of the 16 side. Last time (Without Splat) I had a shitty time. I had to hike up the power-lines and is sucked as it was 110 that day. I'm not giving up on Nam, I know I missed a lot of it. I'm psyched about the security of NEMBA owning it. Knowing that even if all the other places close down, there will always be Vietnam. Alright? So don't be pissed at me, I'm just wondering if anyone thought about where people will park. I've never been to the ballfield and don't know anything about it. I'm all ears. Kevin

[huff'npuff]

Knuck, I think you raised some good,valid points. I'm nowhere near your league or any of the others and never expect to bike 'Nam,but I can see your concern for parking,etc.
I'm happy for all that can tackle 'nam,and tickled silly that NEMBA was able to pull the acquisition off.

[Mt.A TODD]

Now boys, boys… ain’t Democracy Great! But first one must understand the language of Knuckle. Some people paint pictures to express their views, some people write novels to vent their creative juices..and Knuckles, well he likes to type on the internet. That’s how he paints the world. It’s a snapshot of an impulse, a blink of reality. What he punches and spews on the web is not his reality…or is it? Kev is an Artist. Kev is an idiot.

Alright back to Managing Nam…this is classic. Everyone is bringing up some valid concerns, points and thoughts about the property. Trust me, whatever question mark exists for you (atvs, stunts, parking, alien abduction, etc…) it has been thought of and discussed by the movers and shakers of the initial project. The reason for this “gray fog” over Nam, is that this is truly a New Frontier! Nemba is hucking into uncharted territory, but it has scouted the landing! Ohh that was corny. The management “Plan” will be worked out in time, with the help and influence of devoted riders with an eye on the environment and a heart for our sport.…oh and politics. It’s easy to get carried away and let the mind run amuck with the potential riding possibilities, a vision of a DisneyMountainbikeLand with no parking. But relax, relax..we just bought a chunk of forest that will never be cut down! Woohoo! There will always be fun trails to ride on! Woohoo! That’s good enough for me. The future is exciting, but we’ll just have to wait and see. Now lets party.

[splat]

Knuck! You know where I live . You know your always welcome to park there, just ask me to ride with ya ;)

[CouchingTiger]

The parking is situation is a good point. That is certainly one of the 1st things that is going to have to be addressed, I'm sure.

I have a hard time believing though, that the nbumbers of riders at Nam is going to increase too much. Lets face it, the sport is waning. If you think back 5 - 7 years ago at what a given weekend day was like at Nam (or most any other area) compared to what it's like now, you get the idea. That doesn't mean it isn't an issue, just that I don't think it will be much more of an issue in the future than it currently is.

I'm just hoping folks don't think the literally "own" the place now and start doing whatever they want (as if they weren't before).

-Couch

[pk]

Hi Guyz,

Not much time to comment because I'm swamped with the NEMBAfest.....

Knuck's question is very appropriate and it's going to be a big challenge that we're working on.

Key to this will be the development of a bike path in Milford which will run parallel to Cedar Street, and there is an public meeting on October 29th about this, and I urge cyclists to attend.

Here are the details:

Milford Upper Charles Trail Phase 1
MassHighway Public Meeting

Date: Wednesday, October 29th
Time: 7pm
Location: Milford Town Hall (Upper Hall), 52 Main St.

Construction of this offroad, paved trail could begin this year if there is enough community support. The 6-mile trial would be for walking, biking, XC skiing.

Please make plans to attend this meeting.

[knucklebuste]

Now PK, is this trail part of Vietnam, or is this something seperate? I'm all for trails for family and kids and whatnot, but this isn't part of Vietnam is it? Please Clarify. Anyhow, I'm not far at all from vietnam, so when things settle down and any new maintenance or trailbuilding help is needed, you have me hereby volunteering to help. I don't think this is what you meant, and I'm not awake yet, but vietnam isn't going to be paved right? Thats what happens when the MDC takes over a trail, PAVED fireroad for all ;D
Knuck

[knucklebuste]

Knuck! You know where I live . You know your always welcome to park there, just ask me to ride with ya ;)


Thanks buddy, I appreciate it. I think one of the reasons I diddn't have much fun the first time, was the bike I was on. I bet my hardtail would rip it up in there. I'm not giving up on nam, and I'm pretty psyched about the purchase. I am so out of it though, I'm not even a member yet. Well I'm signing up Sunday (gold_member_status) ,and like I said, I'll be out there with whoever, helping out with whatever needs to be done as far as trailbuilding and whatnot. Knuck

[pk]

The proposed rail trail phase 1 (mistakenly labeled 2 on the map below) goes next to 85. It's red on this map.

pk

[BrianK]

PK,
You had mentioned Milford helping us build a parking lot at a NEMBA event (movie awards?). Is this still a possibility?

-BrianK

[bdee]

Hi, I'm wondering if the powerlines that intersect Vietnam are the same ones that run through Franklin, Wrentham etc. Has anyone tried to ride in from around that area? Would it even be feasible? I've ridden up from North Attleboro thru Cumberland and Wrentham past Forge Park and figured I was at least in Bellingham from sights I recognized off of 495. I would never dream of starting from that far south and east (N.A.) but has anyone ridden in to 'Nam from the Bellingham/Franklin area? If it was more than like 5 or 6 miles to I wouldn't even consider it because then I'd have to get back after riding at 'Nam. Just wondering since I haven't ridden there since the whole parking fiasco started a while back.

[splat]

Hi, I'm wondering if the powerlines that intersect Vietnam are the same ones that run through Franklin, Wrentham etc. Has anyone tried to ride in from around that area? Would it even be feasible? I've ridden up from North Attleboro thru Cumberland and Wrentham past Forge Park and figured I was at least in Bellingham from sights I recognized off of 495. I would never dream of starting from that far south and east (N.A.) but has anyone ridden in to 'Nam from the Bellingham/Franklin area? If it was more than like 5 or 6 miles to I wouldn't even consider it because then I'd have to get back after riding at 'Nam. Just wondering since I haven't ridden there since the whole parking fiasco started a while back.


Yes and No. Both sets of Lines go to the Medway Distribution center.

Also PK , there is also the Rail to trail Bike Path In Holliston, that is to be developed on the other side of 16 ( that will also go into Milford Behind the AAC )

http://www.townofholliston.us/hollistontrails/IMAGES/Trail_Map.jpg

this also shows the trail that PK was talikng about , plus it shows "existing trail" those are the nam
Here is More info

http://www.townofholliston.us/hollistontrails/trailmap.htm

[Ocron]

I have a hard time believing though, that the nbumbers of riders at Nam is going to increase too much. Lets face it, the sport is waning. If you think back 5 - 7 years ago at what a given weekend day was like at Nam (or most any other area) compared to what it's like now, you get the idea.

That's a good point, traffic is definitely down at nam this year. We run into groups once in a while, but nothing like it was even two years ago. One thing I did notice, which makes my blood boil like nothing else, is the amount of trail sanitizing and braids that have appeared this year. You know the stone wall near the bottom of the powerlines at the edge of the woods? A couple weeks ago someone had moved most of the section that crossed the trail! It was already simple to ride over for even the most novice rider, but someone took it down anyhow. Of course we stopped and re-assembled it. WTF are people thinking!?!

[Mr_Cheeze]

Perhaps the main reason Nam traffic has dwindled is because of the progressively worsened parking situation. I ride 75% of the time at Foxboro. There were more riders there the last two years than I can ever remember. I haven't bothered checking out Vietman myself specifically due to the parking situation. Others likely feel the same. Why deal with it when there are a dozen other places to ride within an hour's drive?

[CouchingTiger]

I have a hard time believing though, that the nbumbers of riders at Nam is going to increase too much. Lets face it, the sport is waning. If you think back 5 - 7 years ago at what a given weekend day was like at Nam (or most any other area) compared to what it's like now, you get the idea.

That's a good point, traffic is definitely down at nam this year. We run into groups once in a while, but nothing like it was even two years ago. One thing I did notice, which makes my blood boil like nothing else, is the amount of trail sanitizing and braids that have appeared this year. You know the stone wall near the bottom of the powerlines at the edge of the woods? A couple weeks ago someone had moved most of the section that crossed the trail! It was already simple to ride over for even the most novice rider, but someone took it down anyhow. Of course we stopped and re-assembled it. WTF are people thinking!?!



Basically, people don't think, they are stupid and lazy.

I hate them all! ;)

Just got back from a ride at Nam (don't tell my boss). Showed the Dirt Rag folks and a TREK rep the goods. Everyone had a great time. I agree that all the trails need to have a bunch of work done to close braids, tighten blowouts and re-rote some stuff that has just gotten to much use over the years.

-Couch

[knucklebuste]

Ok, cheese ya right. I ride at Franklin, Leominster and Foxboro primarily. I'd love to explore nam more, and before everyone jumps down my throat about NAM, listen. I'm all for the purchase of nam and the progression of the sport. However it is depressing to see a 10 mile radius of NO PARKING signs everywhere. I've driven down there about 5 times to try and ride by myself. Once parking at Target and worrying the whole time if my car would be there when I got back. Not worth it. That's all I'm going to say about parking and Nam. I'm sure some sort of solution to the parking will be provided in the future. Anyhow it was moving to see the cerimony yesterday and to know that so many people and companies not even directly associated with and people that might not even see Vietnam donated to help. Knuck

[knucklebuste]

Ok 1st, I'm an idiot. What's a braid, and what's a blowout? Couch, when do you think the work will begin, probably not until next spring ha? I'll be there to help anyhow when it happens. I need all the exercize I can get. Kevin

Splat, are the red and the blue on that map for proposed trails (bike highways) or does the blue already exist? I'd be interested in taking my girl down there to check it out.

[Ocron]

Perhaps the main reason Nam traffic has dwindled is because of the progressively worsened parking situation.

Then I vote we leave the parking situation as it is. ;D

There are at least 2 good spots to park, the furthest being the ballfield which is exactly 1 mile down the road. I like that lot because pedalling my porky bike for a mile is a decent warmup before hitting the first climb. I've also parked right across the street in the mx lot without any problem. You can also safely park at College Rock and come in to the loop from the 3 hills section.

[narlus]

I'm just hoping folks don't think the literally "own" the place now and start doing whatever they want (as if they weren't before).



F that! i threw down a few c notes, and i'm rebuilding the spider!!! ;D

[Mitch]

PK alerted me to this thread on "managing" Vietnam and suggested that I post a reply. For the last few months I've headed a group of several folks from the NEMBA Board of Directors to brainstorm how we will manage this property.

Basically, it looks like we're going to set up a Land Management Committee that will report to the NEMBA BOD. We've also put together a "Guiding Principles" document and a very preliminary land management plan so that the eventual Land Management Committee will not have to start from scratch. So, we will be looking for some interested folks to be on this committee. Basically, here are the criteria.

LMC members must be NEMBA members and, as a group, should represent a range of riding styles and expertise, including land management, environmental policy, mountain bike advocacy, trail maintenance and building, legal expertise, grant writing, etc. Members should have the ability, free time, commitment, and geographical proximity to attend several meetings per year as necessary, including meetings with other towns and land management groups. Also, some degree of "political" awareness is necessary since a major challenge will be our ability to work with our neighbors. We'd also be looking for a one year commitment.

If anyone is interested, feel free to email me at mitchell.steinberg@charter.net

Thanks,

Mitch

[JimmyTwoTimes]

This sounds fishy. I smell a paving party, picnic tables and park rangers......

[pk]

Actually, I've been bummed how easy the riding has become here. The trails used to be nice and tight and tricky. Now they're wide and blown out. I think a lot of effort will be made to restore the unique and difficult character of this place.

pk

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Yes indeed!!!

[jsb2dc]

PK, that is the correct answer.

[knucklebuste]

As I stated before, I've only been to Nam 2x and I'm wondering if there is any nice windy, loopy, flowy singletrack in there. What I saw was mostly just this huck, that huck, this huck and no real transition between each one. Most of the trails I saw were just endless rocks. Technical but hard to get up any speed on them. Now I realize Nam is a pretty good size area and I'm wondering if there are more trails in there I missed. Of course the last time I went, I was on my 50lb Kona and did not have as much fun as I could have. I can't wait to return on my hardtail, a much lighter bike at 35LBS :o Also, for PK, do you think there will be cutting of new trails in there as time progresses? Kevin

[steve_b]

I've only been to Nam 2x and I'm wondering if there is any nice windy, loopy, flowy singletrack in there.

You must have missed it. I have ridden there twice (Splat=tour guide ;) ) with a small group, and there is easily 2 hours of windy, flowing singletrack. Once Splat has healed from his surgery, see if you can get a couple more "tours". After 2-3 more rides there, you should learn enough about the place to piece togther your own loop. It seems to me you could use 495 to help remember where you are.

[Z]

Ya, agreed! I think you missed it!

That's how I would describe most of the trails in this place, "nice windy, loopy, flowy singletrack" I love technical riding, and rock gardens are my favorite, but I don't do hucks. And I can do a two hour technical ride without getting off my bike (well, almost)

And also... as one of the folks that wrote the guiding principles doc, I can say that - no question - the intent is to keep the trails technical. I have been riding Nam for almost 10 years now and the trails used to be much more tight and technical. I have been sorry to see it get easier.

[MMcG]

I've only been to Nam 2x and I'm wondering if there is any nice windy, loopy, flowy singletrack in there.

You must have missed it. I have ridden there twice (Splat=tour guide ;) ) with a small group, and there is easily 2 hours of windy, flowing singletrack. Once Splat has healed from his surgery, see if you can get a couple more "tours". After 2-3 more rides there, you should learn enough about the place to piece togther your own loop. It seems to me you could use 495 to help remember where you are.




Splat is a great 'Nam host and tour guide. I had a lot of fun there this summer on a really hot day with I Are Baboon, Splat, Evil:Bota, IF_Rider, SloMoJo and a couple other guys.

Can't wait to get back - possibly a post turkey day CT invasion if I'm in the area and not back in Rochester, NY at my Mom's.

[steve_b]

and not back in Rochester, NY at my Mom's.

If you do go to Rochester, you should consider a 2 hour side trip in Albany on the return trip. There's a couple of good places to ride just off of the Northway.

[MMcG]

and not back in Rochester, NY at my Mom's.

If you do go to Rochester, you should consider a 2 hour side trip in Albany on the return trip. There's a couple of good places to ride just off of the Northway.


Steve,

There is a possiblity that Thanksgiving will take place at my brother's house in Albany. If so, will you be around? We could hit some trails. Its been ages since I rode in the area. Where do you do most of your local riding? My brother in law used to hit the Pine Bush alot, that and the Town of Colonie park.

[splat]

Yeah , when I Took Knuckles in there the 1st time , he had the Big Kona, so I took him to places to Use that Bad boy !

But I'd be more than willing to Give you the XC tour .

[knucklebuste]

Thanks buddy, get that shoulder all hooked up and I'm all for the XC ride. I'll either bring my hardtail or my Hollowpoint. Can't wait to go back to the nam. Don't get me wrong, I liked the NAM and it's a really unique feeling place when your in there and see all the rocks and stuff, kinda like your on another planet, like me. I just think I would have enjoyed it if I wasn't coughing up blood from riding the Kona. Next time will be more fun. Kevin

[steve_b]

There is a possiblity that Thanksgiving will take place at my brother's house in Albany. If so, will you be around? We could hit some trails.

I may be attending the Turkey Burner (NH) on Fri. 11/28, but Sat. and Sun. I will be around.

Colonie Park or the Lock 7 trails are the 2 best places to ride close to Albany. Pine Bush (or sand bush as we call it) is more of a wet season place to ride. Parts of it are like riding on the beach.

Also: 1 hour away, there's the Yukon Ridge / Kennedy Park trails in Lenox, Mass or the Balance Rock / 6 mile singletrack area near Pittsfield.

[BrianK]

Steve,

There is a possiblity that Thanksgiving will take place at my brother's house in Albany. If so, will you be around? We could hit some trails. Its been ages since I rode in the area. Where do you do most of your local riding? My brother in law used to hit the Pine Bush alot, that and the Town of Colonie park.


I'll be at my parents house in Clifton Park for Thanksgiving. If you don't mind me tagging along, I'd be interested in seeing what riding there is around Albany. Only place I've been at back in NY is Skidmore college. It got rave reviews on MTBreview.com but that riding wasn't nearly as good as the stuff around here.

-BrianK

[steve_b]

[quoteI'll be at my parents house in Clifton Park for Thanksgiving

Are you going to be there Sat? I live in Clifton Park, but probably won't be back until Fri afternoon. There's some good riding in Colonie. It's a little different from the NE riding, though. More loose shale than big rocks.

Only place I've been at back in NY is Skidmore college. It got rave reviews on MTBreview.com but that riding wasn't nearly as good as the stuff around here.

The trails at Skidmore College aren't the good stuff. The good stuff is just BEYOND the college trails, at the Stables area. Bikerag info:

http://www.bikerag.com/images/MAPS/ny_devils_den_daniels_road_review.htm

[zach11979]

I agree with Knuck and others about the need for parking. The last thing you want to worry about while riding is if your car is going to be towed or vandalized. Also isn't it a law that if you own land that does not abut a street that you can legally create a right of way through another persons land to your land. This may vary depending on the towns zoning laws. Thats just my 2 cents of architect talk.

[knucklebuste]

Zoning, bi-laws, right of way oi yoi yoi ::)
Lets just bulldoze a section of the woods out, put in an access road, and pave the biatch. Nam paving fund.
Knuck

[CouchingTiger]

I agree with Knuck and others about the need for parking. The last thing you want to worry about while riding is if your car is going to be towed or vandalized. Also isn't it a law that if you own land that does not abut a street that you can legally create a right of way through another persons land to your land. This may vary depending on the towns zoning laws. Thats just my 2 cents of architect talk.


I think that is only if you have an easement to access your land. Not sure if this land has it or not. Keep in mind that even if there is an easement, the cost of putting a road in that far and developing a parking lot would probably cost half what the land did in the 1st place. Plus then instead of having biking trails we'd have a pissa parking lot ;)

Remember, 47 acres isn't all that much in terms of open space. Every square inch is gonna want to used for trails (IMHO).

-Couch

[joe]

I don't think that a road is ever going to happen. Keep in mind that part of why this parcel of land was so affordable ( < $5,000/acre isn't very much money in eastern MA) is that there is no vehicular right of way allowing access to the property.

If the previous owner had been able to secure the right to build a road then the land would most likely have been sold to a developer for far more than NEMBA paid.

[grayghostss]

You guys are TEXT. Good point on parking. We'll have to see what the leadership comes up with. I'm sure they're listening to all of this and are on top of it. I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing 'nam YET. I'll ride an extra few miles if I have to-just to see what all the hype is about. -Scott

[BrianK]

So, anyone go to the meeting last night?

Any interesting news or plans?

-BrianK