TUBES OR NO TUBES

[knucklebuste]

Hello, I am contemplating on whether to go with tubes or no tubes and have the following questions.
1. What is the benefit of a tubless system
2. Do you have to have an automotive shop to put air in the tires
3. Do you get less flats with a tubeless system
4. Do you have to run more air pressure so the bead doesn't come off the rim?
5. Is there a bead lock type thing like on a car where the bead snaps or pops into place?
6. Do you need an air compressor to get air in them?
7. Can you use tubes on a tubeless rim?
8. Is there any limitation to the size of a tire you can use if you use say a mavic crossmax xl tubeless rim and say a 2.5 tire with a tube? Will that work?
also do you think this wheelset is overkill for the bike I'm building, which will be basically a beefed up XC type rig.
http://www.supergo.com/itemdisplay.asp?parentid=21938&secid=7559&subid=75 67
What do you guys think of the Deemax rimset as well. I will need a 20mm front hub.

Any suggestions on tubeless systems? I've heard of stans no-tubes, but I don't understand how they work. Are they rim specific?

I know these are a lot of questions, any help is appreciated.
Thanks, Knuck

[radair]

Go with Yes Tubes, they rock!

http://www.paradigmhosting.net/yes_tubes/

We had two people flat (simultaneously) on a group ride the other night. Both were running tubeless. Those of us with tubes that hit the same rocks at the same speed did not flat. Both of those guys put in a tube and carried on. You make the call.

Answers:

1. tubs are for bathing
2. initially you have to really crank up the pressure to seat the bead
3. NO. Don't believe otherwise.
4. NO, you should be able to run lower pressures without pinch flats, but reality may be different.
5. huh?
6. No
7. Yes
8. No, I don't think so.

Stan's is a system to convert a standard rim to a tubeless set up. Spooge yourself if you want.

[knucklebuste]

Thanks for the link RAD.
YES TO TUBES FOR ME

PHUCK STAN, sounds like a nightmare

YES TO TUBES

knuck

[radair]

For a motherhucker like you, heavy DH tubes are also available.

OK, time for the tubeless cult to join in......

[Mt.A TODD]

Stan's is a system to convert a standard rim to a tubeless set up. Spooge yourself if you want.


Not entirely true, a number of us down here at Aggie put a 1/4 of a cup of Stans inside are our tubeless system. No more slow leaks no more puncture flats. On a number of occasions I have heard the unmistakable sound of a puncture flat..well for about a second, that’s when Stans juice seals the hole and I keep on ROLLING! I run both my XC bikes with a Tubeless wheelset, UST tire and Stans juice inside. I have had many punctures since using this system, but have not needed to buy a new tire or patch it or do anything except add a little air for the next ride.

[knucklebuste]

Well what is the benefit? I run my tires at 30 psi and have never got a flat. I ran them for 2 days at 20 psi and got like 4 flats. So what the the benefit of tubeless?

[knucklebuste]

Stan's is a system to convert a standard rim to a tubeless set up. Spooge yourself if you want.


I have heard the unmistakable sound of a puncture flat..well for about a second, that’s when Stans juice seals the hole and I keep on ROLLING!

Well how much air do you lose then the unmistakable sound of a puncture flat takes place? knuck

[radair]

Not entirely true, a number of us down here at Aggie put a 1/4 of a cup of Stans inside are our tubeless system.

Yeah, you could also use it instead of KY jelly. But the Stan's system consists of rimstrips and spooge to convert standard rims to tubeless, no matter what unnatural acts you use the spooge for.

Knuck, if you're trying to ride at 20 psi, maybe tubeless is what you want.

[knucklebuste]

Well I'm a dum dum. I don't know anything about what air pressure to use and whatnot. I did find that at 20 psi, it was a much nicer ride, on the hardtail anyhow, but as soon as I started the 20psi I got endless small puncture holes in my tube. Coincidence? I don't know. These weren't what I thought to be pinch flats (those are at the edge where the tire meets the rim right? Well thes holes were at the top of the tube. Anyhow, I don't want to be out on the trail putting air in a tubeless setup, especially if you need an air compressor to do it, lol. Anyhow nobody has yet explained the benefits of running tubeless. Is it to be able to run a lower pressure? knuck

[radair]

yes

some people claim they have fewer flats with tubeless, but they're the guys on the side of the trail putting tubes in.

I'm sure I've just jinxed myself into having endless flats.

[Mt.A TODD]

Well how much air do you lose then the unmistakable sound of a puncture flat takes place? knuck


not enuf air to even make a difference. Watch the video on the notubes.com website and you'll see! he stabs his tire like 60 times and does not need to add air!

Low PSI is better traction for wet conditions and snow, fall and winter riding!

And its not messy or sticky, its like milk! Mount a UST tire to the rim, leave the bottom bead open so you can pour the watery substance in, pop bead back into rim and pump the tire up- done! I don't even carry a tube anymore because it works so well!

Now what's the point to all this? WEIGHT! light tires, light pack = long ride!

[knucklebuste]

Damn, now I'm confused again.

To Tube or Not to Tube, that is the question. STILL
knuck

[Mt.A TODD]

Two types of flats Knuck! Pinch flat and Puncture flat! you will never get a pinch flat with tubeless. Low psi and a tube = pinch flat. Everyone gets puncture flats from sharp stuff. So the set up I am using is the best way to prevent both types of flats while still having the lightest wheelset possible. Actually adding the Stans kit to a conventional set of tires is the lightest most flat free set up anyone could possible have -That’s why all the top pro XC racers use it. Strong wheels are good, but heavy wheels will drain all your energy!

[knucklebuste]

Ok so I've been looking at these mavic crossmax wheels that are UST. Does that mean tubeless? So if I run those tubeless rims with this stans shite in it and run say 20-25 psi I should be good?
What do you think about those rims? They come with this bike, but I'm only getting the frame.
http://www.ironhorsebikes.com/bikes/hollowpoint_team.shtml
click on specs for the rims
Let me know what you think, or any other rim recommendations. I will be using a 20mm hub up front.
Kevin

[pudding]

I'm always confused... but I know that I've gotten a lot less flats this days ...which I loosely atribute to better tire design.

My question would be ...do heavier riders reap the same benefits from Tubeless systems? My reasoning is that a 200lb rider with tires at 40psi has a contact patch of 5 square inches, and a 150lb rider with tires at 40psi only has a contact area of 3.75 square inches. Obviously, a lighter rider would want lower pressures?

The other thing I would like to add (just to confuse Knuck some more) is that flats are easire to change on narrow deep section (XC) rims and harder to change on wide flatter x-section(DH) rims.

[knucklebuste]

My reasoning is that a 200lb rider with tires at 40psi has a contact patch of 5 square inches, and a 150lb rider with tires at 40psi only has a contact area of 3.75 square inches.

Now thats getting into X=MC2-Yx3.14 shite dud. Thats rocket science. I'm confused enough, I work with phucking Oracle all day long. knuck

[pudding]

Knuck,

I've read the posts and gotta know... what bike did you decide upon?

[knucklebuste]

Well I'm thinking seriously about the Iron Horse Hollowpoint Team frame. It comes with a 5th element air shock, which will probably be replaced with a romic coil if I end up bottoming out a lot. I've also been looking at the Kona Coiler Deluxe, but don't like some of the parts it comes with, so I don't want to spend $2500 for the bike and then $500 for parts, when I can build up the hollowpoint the way I want it for around $2500 stinks. My wife has only alotted me 2500 stinks for this next build. Yeah you can call her a bitch if you want, but I've bought 3 bikes already in less than a year, so she ain't that bad. Plus she's getting a new bike too. knuck

[SloMoJo]

Sheesh! ???

[knucklebuste]

Sheesh! ???


Yeah I know ha? It's not fair, she gets to keep 13000 stinks of the refinance money and I get a lousy $2500 to try and build a bike with. Life is just not fair. :'(

Knuck

[pudding]

Yea I saw the picture you posted of the Iron Horse, and I noticed that it had 24 spoke wheelsets on it... so your probably doing it right if you just buy the frame from them.

Good luck with the retail therapy.

P.S. I laughed my a** off when someone over at Busted Spoke recomended that you buy a Gemini!

[Dino Sore]

I've been running tubeless for two years now and here is my $0.02:

[Set up: 3 different bikes with either Mavic Crossrocs or X3.1 wheels and Michelin Wildgripper S or Comp S tires. All XC riding or racing; no jumping off of cliffs or other crazy s**t. I weigh 195 on a good day.]

+ No more pinch flats. I used to get at least one per month.
+ I can run much lower pressures; 30-40 psi vs 45-60
+ I've been able to finish rides with minor punctures. The soft carcas will seal up minor pricks - it will only leak air when the tire deflects when it hits the ground
+ Only one real "flat" in two years (cut the sidewall open)
+ I think they give a much better ride
+ They're supposed to have lower rolling resistence and hence are faster. I can't confirm this because I rarely see "faster"
+ Never need a tire iron again

On the downside:
- A bit heavier than tubed tires
- Much more sidewall wear. I don't know if this is due to running lower air pressure, or a problem specific to the Michelins. The cords will be showing on the sidewalls long before the tread is worn.
- A little more effort to mount. Need to ensure the bead and the rim are clean and use lots of soapy water. I've been able to get them to seat with a hand pump most times, but it's definately easier with a compressor.


If you do get a flat on the trail, just pop out the stem and insert a tube. The tires are easily repaired once you get home. I've used auto tire patches, but I've seen people successfuly use bike patches. Just make sure you scrape the carcas pretty well so that you remove all the residue from the mold release compounds. Otherwise the patch won't adhere.

Bottom line - I love them. However, if you don't have problems with pinch flats, I wouldn't go spending money to change over. On the other hand, if you're buying a new bike and it comes with tubeless, I wouldn't avoid them either.

Ignore all other hysterical comments.

[knucklebuste]

Yea I saw the picture you posted of the Iron Horse, and I noticed that it had 24 spoke wheelsets on it... so your probably doing it right if you just buy the frame from them.

Good luck with the retail therapy.

P.S. I laughed my a** off when someone over at Busted Spoke recomended that you buy a Gemini!


Yeah Gemeni ha? HA HA, the worst pedalling piece of garbage there is. Maybee it would have been better with a 5th element. Oh well, I'm glad I got rid of it. As for the Iron Horse, I've researched it plenty and talked with DW, the designer of the suspension, and it seems like a good trail bike. I've read the reviews on Mtbr.com and 90% of the reviews are good. Most of that bike is setting up the rear shock properly. There is rarely a bike however with the spec I want on it. Like I said, I'm building it up as a burly trail bike. No hucks. I've been riding singletrack since the beginning of the spring (if we actually even had one) and I'm loving it. The huck bike is cool, I'll keep it for the downhills (if I ever get to one). But to buy a bike for $2500 buck with stuff I don't like on it and end up spending 1000 stinks to get it where I want it is stupid. I think people that spec out most bikes are smoking serious ammounts of bad crack cocaine. For this kid, it's frame only and I'll build it the way I like, like the gack. That thing is indestructable as far as burly arse trail pounding goes. Specc'd it out with big arse shite and it's held up fine. Knuck

[Mt.A TODD]

This is my friend, Chuck the Lobsterman. He throws harpoons at Tunafish. Chuck abuses his bike like it was a lobster pot, constantly hucking it, slamming it, crashing it and throwing it. I ride with Chuck twice a week, in every season for the past four years now. Chuck does not have wheel problems. He rides Mavic CrossMax UST XLs- we all do. They are strong- They are light! Buy Them.

[C.P.]

Hello, I am contemplating on whether to go with tubes or no tubes and have the following questions.
1. What is the benefit of a tubless system
2. Do you have to have an automotive shop to put air in the tires
3. Do you get less flats with a tubeless system
4. Do you have to run more air pressure so the bead doesn't come off the rim?
5. Is there a bead lock type thing like on a car where the bead snaps or pops into place?
6. Do you need an air compressor to get air in them?
7. Can you use tubes on a tubeless rim?
8. Is there any limitation to the size of a tire you can use if you use say a mavic crossmax xl tubeless rim and say a 2.5 tire with a tube? Will that work?
also do you think this wheelset is overkill for the bike I'm building, which will be basically a beefed up XC type rig.
http://www.supergo.com/itemdisplay.asp?parentid=21938&secid=7559&subid=75 67
What do you guys think of the Deemax rimset as well. I will need a 20mm front hub.

Any suggestions on tubeless systems? I've heard of stans no-tubes, but I don't understand how they work. Are they rim specific?

I know these are a lot of questions, any help is appreciated.
Thanks, Knuck


Knuck,
I've been experimenting with Stans No Tubes and have a few comments.
-Stans does work with a regular rim with his rubber rim strip kit etc, but my experience is that it works best with this setup running DH tires - they have much bigger fatter beads to lock the tire on the rim, allowing me to inflate them without a compressor, ...also makes a much more bomb proof setup. But I do drops regularly, so I could be the exception.
Things to note:
-I have NOT flatted since spring with Stans and this combo, and continue to pound the hell out of them. I run about 35psi. rear and 32 front.
Based on my experience with tubes/tubeless, If I were asked to choose a wheelset/tire setup for myself RIGHT NOW - I would buy the new Mavic D3.1 UST rim, 14g spokes and King Hubs - and install my favorite UST version tire with Stans Juice inside. The Mavic D series 3.1 rim is a new "extreme" rim, but isn't overkill like the D321 rims(toowide/big) or the Deemax - (too overkill).

I'll answer your orig questions.
1. Main benefit is supposed to be no pinch flatting.
2. For UST rim/tire no, for some Regular rims with stans no tubes and reg tires - sometimes.
3. The jury is still out deliberating...My experience - YES.
4. No, in fact you can run less and not risk getting a pinch flat - (20PSI seems real low though)
5. The primary difference for UST setup is in the design of the rim. Although the bead is tougher on the tire, and the side wall too.
6. For UST - No. For stans and reg rims/tires - sometimes. I have seen users of Stans mount their tires with CO2 inflator.
7. Tubes can be used on a tubeless rim. Also regular tires.
8. There isn't such a limitation, YET. My experience is when you start getting above 2.3 sized tires, you should consider running rims that are wider then 28mm, like 30 to 36mm. The bead on a larger tire (2.5 or bigger) starts to be forced off a smaller width rim (28mm) when the going gets tough - IE off camber drop or something - at least that's my own experience. The deemax is overkill IMO.

My suggestions going forward:
-Buy a UST specific rim and build a nice wheelset with regular steel spokes and brass nips - you can mount tubeless tires, or have the option to run reg tires and tubes - and have the flexibility of easy repairs etc.
-Put stans juice in the UST setup, and you'll have an even more bullet proof setup.
-I like regular steel spokes and brass nips when I build wheels, they are easily trued even after three years of punishment. I've been around the "Super Custom Factory Wheel Set" merry-go-round. I've since gone back to good ole steel spokes/brass nips, and good quality alu rims. Everything is so much more available, and easy/cheap to fix.
IMO - All custom all-aluminum/zicral wheelsets like Mavic you mentioned are super nice - for about one to two seasons, then the alum spoke nips start to get galled up and become impossible to true, or simply start breaking. They are a pain in the arse to get at almost all bike shops (the spokes) when they break, and are expensive.
-Dont use a stans kit to convert any regular mtn rim to tubeless, Stan had a good idea, but I don't think it will continue to be around for many more years as UST rim & tire options get more refined.

OK - I'm done....phew!

[radair]

This is really good info, and I pretty much agree with all of it. I'm loyal to tubes because I haven't had a flat all year and am relatively light. I've also seen more tubeless flats than otherwise this year. But the UST system C.P. describes and Todd uses may be the optimum way to go.

I prefer double-butted spokes - there are many wheelbuilders that believe a DB spoked wheel will take a hit, deflect, and return to shape because it's more elastic. But you'll get as much debate there as tube vs. tubeless.

Good post, C.P.

[knucklebuste]

Thanks CP, Todd, etc
One question, what are double butted spokes?
JHFC, I diddn't realize there was so much rocket science involved in wheel building. One more reason why I will never ever ever ever get into it (24 spokes, 32, 36, cross lacing, brass nipples) oi yoi yoi
Sensory overload.

Couple more ?'s , I hear that hand build wheels are the best. I can understand that a hand trued wheel is best, but can't you just buy a machine made wheelset and have a shop true it up for you?
Also, I saw the mavic 3.1 rims. They look not that wide. I like to run 2.5 weirwolves, although I don't think they'll fit on my hollowpoint frame. What is a median width for rims I should be looking for.
Do you think the 3.1's or the crossmax XL's will do what I want and be able to run tubes or no tubes?
Thanks again for all the info. Knuck

[radair]

JHFC, you ask more questions than McAskalot! This is totally hijacking your tubeless thread, but......

Double-butted spokes taper to a thinner diameter in the middle of the spoke and are fatter at the ends (elbows & threads). You tend to break spokes at the elbows where stresses are highest, though stripping out nipples is possible, too.

Spokes can come in straight gauges - 14 ga. is common. 14/15 DB spokes taper a little bit (the higher the number the thinner the spoke) - 14 ga. on the ends, 15 ga. down the middle. I built some XC/racing wheels with 14/17 spokes - really skinny! They're still going strong, though.

Nipples - aluminum (aka "alloy") nipples are slightly lighter, but the difference is miniscule. Brass nipples are much stronger and are the way to go, IMO. It's pretty easy to strip/deform AL nips when cranking them tight.

The key to a good hand built wheelset is PRE-STRESSING the spokes. Machine built wheels will be fine when new, but use will cause the spokes to bed in to the hub flanges and stretch out straighter under tension from riding. The trick is to relieve stresses by get the spokes to bed in and stretch ahead of time. There are a bunch of techniques to do this, typically used between tensioning rounds as you build the wheels up. Building wheels is very easy with basic instruction - if anyone's interested in this let me know and I'll send you some info.

I know a lot of folks that love their Crossmaxes. My only beef with them is they use proprietary spokes & nipples. I like to be able to tweak repairs with standard stuff.

[C.P.]

Thanks CP, Todd, etc
One question, what are double butted spokes?
JHFC, I diddn't realize there was so much rocket science involved in wheel building. One more reason why I will never ever ever ever get into it (24 spokes, 32, 36, cross lacing, brass nipples) oi yoi yoi
Sensory overload.

Couple more ?'s , I hear that hand build wheels are the best. I can understand that a hand trued wheel is best, but can't you just buy a machine made wheelset and have a shop true it up for you?
Also, I saw the mavic 3.1 rims. They look not that wide. I like to run 2.5 weirwolves, although I don't think they'll fit on my hollowpoint frame. What is a median width for rims I should be looking for.
Do you think the 3.1's or the crossmax XL's will do what I want and be able to run tubes or no tubes?
Thanks again for all the info. Knuck



Knuck,
Radair gives some good info regarding you question about handbuilt wheels...I agree with all his comments.
I recently picked up a (sept 03) Mountain Bike Action mag (not my typical mtn bike rag - I prefer Dirtrag) and there's a article regarding the wheel building masters pg38...
If you really want a good set of wheels - go hand built.

RE: 3.1 rims.
Mavic makes two UST tubeless rims that can be laced using your own spokes/hubs.
The X3.1 is 24mm wide and for XC racing (too narrow)
The D3.1 is 30mm wide and for "extreme" all conditions type ridin'. These will be perfect for the 2.5 tires you mention.
So, while looking for this elusive wheelset, you should try to get rims at least 30mm wide.
The Crossmax XL or the D3.1 will do what you want and be able to run tubes or go UST tubeless.
Good Luck,

C.P.